Post by: renocat on February 27, 2017, 09:11:04 PM
A transboy competed as a girl and won the state rasslin champ. Not fair.
Post by: TheHamburglar on February 27, 2017, 09:14:34 PM
Post by: ednksu on February 27, 2017, 09:26:43 PM
I'm not supposed to respond to renovat as if they're a real person, right?
Under no circumstances.
But hey, maybe we can get these kids their own, separate, but equal, league. Maybe we can dress them up in chintzy costumes and make them dance for us in between rounds. minstrel_show.gif
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2017, 09:27:17 PM
But I think you have this situation mixed up.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 27, 2017, 09:40:06 PM
Post by: Trim on February 27, 2017, 10:45:55 PM
Sometimes what is right is not fair, renocat.
But I think you have this situation mixed up.
Yep, this was the what happens when the renos don't allow free-range wrestling mats.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 27, 2017, 11:21:27 PM
Nice work as always Whackadoolunaticfringe EDN.
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on February 28, 2017, 09:08:46 AM
Post by: catastrophe on February 28, 2017, 09:17:36 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 28, 2017, 09:17:48 AM
Always appreciate Whackadoo EDN taking a situation out to: Things that will never happen. Land.He still lets reno get under his skin. You can't trust someone that unbalanced.
Nice work as always Whackadoolunaticfringe EDN.
Post by: star seed 7 on February 28, 2017, 09:19:41 AM
What are the rules about what kind of drugs high school athletes are allowed to take?
Dr prescribed
Post by: star seed 7 on February 28, 2017, 09:20:17 AM
That is the interesting wrinkle to the story. What if a girl wasn't transgendered but took testosterone purely for performance reasons?
Is it doctor prescribed?
Post by: SdK on February 28, 2017, 09:22:03 AM
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on February 28, 2017, 09:23:37 AM
What are the rules about what kind of drugs high school athletes are allowed to take?
Dr prescribed
What if they were in Colorado and a dr prescribed weed? Would that be allowed?
Post by: star seed 7 on February 28, 2017, 09:26:43 AM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on February 28, 2017, 09:45:51 AM
Post by: Institutional Control on February 28, 2017, 09:53:40 AM
That is the interesting wrinkle to the story. What if a girl wasn't transgendered but took testosterone purely for performance reasons?
Is it doctor prescribed?
In this case, the steroids were doctor prescribed. He wanted to compete against boys but wasn't allowed because Texas UIL requires them to compete under the gender they were born.
Post by: star seed 7 on February 28, 2017, 09:56:26 AM
That is the interesting wrinkle to the story. What if a girl wasn't transgendered but took testosterone purely for performance reasons?
Is it doctor prescribed?
In this case, the steroids were doctor prescribed. He wanted to compete against boys but wasn't allowed because Texas UIL requires them to compete under the gender they were born.
Exactly why Edna's question was stupid
Post by: Trim on February 28, 2017, 09:56:54 AM
That is the interesting wrinkle to the story. What if a girl wasn't transgendered but took testosterone purely for performance reasons?
Is it doctor prescribed?
In this case, the steroids were doctor prescribed. He wanted to compete against boys but wasn't allowed because Texas UIL requires them to compete under the gender they were born.
It's almost like it produces very awkward results when you force transgender people into a category of facilities corresponding w/the gender they were born.
Post by: star seed 7 on February 28, 2017, 09:57:39 AM
As we continue to blur the line and definition of gender, the ultimate outcome will be no more sexually segregated sports or activities. We'll just have weight classes or something else. I don't think that's good for women, but I'm just a stick in the mud conservative. We got continue progressing!!
Dumbass Texas could have just let the kid compete against boys like he wanted
Post by: Institutional Control on February 28, 2017, 09:59:06 AM
As we continue to blur the line and definition of gender, the ultimate outcome will be no more sexually segregated sports or activities. We'll just have weight classes or something else. I don't think that's good for women, but I'm just a stick in the mud conservative. We got continue progressing!!
Dumbass Texas could have just let the kid compete against boys like he wanted
But they're scared some guy is going to want to claim he identifies as a woman and demand to play women's basketball.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on February 28, 2017, 10:14:53 AM
Post by: Institutional Control on February 28, 2017, 10:21:20 AM
Hasn't that already happened? I think I recall reading that but I wasn't sure if the guy was serious or just being an bad person.
I haven't seen anything like that. Just like I haven't seen men pretending to be transgender so they can go into women's restrooms.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on February 28, 2017, 10:27:00 AM
The particular article linked above argues that that the "women" don't have an unfair advantage. The real woman athletes disagree.
Post by: LickNeckey on February 28, 2017, 11:39:18 AM
As we continue to blur the line and definition of gender, the ultimate outcome will be no more sexually segregated sports or activities. We'll just have weight classes or something else. I don't think that's good for women, but I'm just a stick in the mud conservative. We got continue progressing!!
psst that is how wrestling works in Kansas
(also not sure if you know this but girls sometimes play football, on the same field even, as boys)
Post by: catastrophe on February 28, 2017, 01:45:01 PM
That is the interesting wrinkle to the story. What if a girl wasn't transgendered but took testosterone purely for performance reasons?
Is it doctor prescribed?
In this case, the steroids were doctor prescribed. He wanted to compete against boys but wasn't allowed because Texas UIL requires them to compete under the gender they were born.
Exactly why Edna's question was stupid
Don't I feel silly. Of course there is no way someone could find a doctor to prescribe medication they do not actually need. :blush:
Post by: AbeFroman on February 28, 2017, 03:09:00 PM
Trumpublicans now: "why is she allowed to wrestle girls? It's not fair!"
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on February 28, 2017, 03:21:09 PM
Trumpublicans then: "damn transgenders should be grouped in with their birth gender! It's not fair!"
Trumpublicans now: "why is she allowed to wrestle girls? It's not fair!"
I think it's funny because there are dueling Trumpublicans on the comments because they are not clear on whether this is a boy that used to be a girl or a girl that used to be a boy.
"She should not be allowed to wrestle girls."
"No, HE is a boy. He can't change his gender so he shouldn't have been put in the girls division."
Post by: Institutional Control on February 28, 2017, 03:51:15 PM
Trumpublicans then: "damn transgenders should be grouped in with their birth gender! It's not fair!"
Trumpublicans now: "why is she allowed to wrestle girls? It's not fair!"
I think it's funny because there are dueling Trumpublicans on the comments because they are not clear on whether this is a boy that used to be a girl or a girl that used to be a boy.
"She should not be allowed to wrestle girls."
"No, HE is a boy. He can't change his gender so he shouldn't have been put in the girls division."
You should see some of the news reports down here on this story. Quite entertaining.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 28, 2017, 04:45:45 PM
Post by: cfbandyman on February 28, 2017, 05:33:06 PM
Probably should just put all trans people into the men's league.
That, or create a 3rd league that is "all persons" that anyone can compete in if they want to. Would mostly be guys trying to be the best again, but if girls want to compete, or if someone is transgendered, then you can have it settled in that league once and for all.
Post by: catastrophe on February 28, 2017, 06:14:29 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on February 28, 2017, 08:13:56 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on February 28, 2017, 08:41:15 PM
Pretty sure edna was being sarcastic and properly antagonizing how absurd it is for a boy to be competing against girls.
Take it up with rednecks in texas
Post by: Emo EMAW on February 28, 2017, 09:18:28 PM
Post by: renocat on February 28, 2017, 10:07:44 PM
Once you get past the imbecile part of this article, you read the girls that rassled against the transitioning transgender girl had no problems. So. I am trying to understand. Really its none of my damn business. Kids usually are more adaptable than us parents. This transboy wanted to manrassle, and should have been allowed to do so. I still think it would be unfair for a male gearshifting to a girl to compete as a girl, especially if any girls object. If DJamer transed to a girl, could he play 4 years for Mittie?
Post by: ednksu on February 28, 2017, 11:16:01 PM
That is the interesting wrinkle to the story. What if a girl wasn't transgendered but took testosterone purely for performance reasons?
Is it doctor prescribed?
In this case, the steroids were doctor prescribed. He wanted to compete against boys but wasn't allowed because Texas UIL requires them to compete under the gender they were born.
Exactly why Edna's question was stupid
Mouth breathing rough ridin' stupidity on display.
Post by: ednksu on February 28, 2017, 11:17:55 PM
Pretty sure edna was being sarcastic and properly antagonizing how absurd it is for a boy to be competing against girls.
But he is a she, so this is the way it should be?
If you guys aren't on board with a separate but equal league, we should probably just ban them all from competition and bathrooms.
Post by: Panjandrum on March 01, 2017, 09:30:00 AM
As we continue to blur the line and definition of gender, the ultimate outcome will be no more sexually segregated sports or activities. We'll just have weight classes or something else. I don't think that's good for women, but I'm just a stick in the mud conservative. We got continue progressing!!
This was predicted in Starship Troopers.
Post by: star seed 7 on March 01, 2017, 10:26:36 AM
Post by: Phil Titola on March 01, 2017, 10:34:21 AM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 01, 2017, 10:37:17 AM
Maybe Texas should take a break from high school sports...They are too into it...Let the kids compete and have fun....Too much worrying about who wins and how my kid didn't win so I'm going to be mad about it.
I think the parents complaining about their girls losing to somebody who has been taking testosterone (Dr's orders or not) has a legitimate gripe. It would suck to work hard enough to get to the state championship only to lose to a transgender man who has been taking testosterone therapy.
Post by: SdK on March 01, 2017, 10:39:39 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on March 01, 2017, 11:00:19 AM
Maybe Texas should take a break from high school sports...They are too into it...Let the kids compete and have fun....Too much worrying about who wins and how my kid didn't win so I'm going to be mad about it.
I think the parents complaining about their girls losing to somebody who has been taking testosterone (Dr's orders or not) has a legitimate gripe. It would suck to work hard enough to get to the state championship only to lose to a transgender man who has been taking testosterone therapy.
Yes.
I have zero issue with trans people, but I also don't really like the idea of teenagers with still developing brains and bodies taking steps to physically alter their gender either. Seems a bit irresponsible on the doctor and parent's part, but I'm def not an expert on the issue.
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on March 01, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
I'm curious how this would have played out if he had already had the genital operation. Maybe he has, I dunno.
He has to get his birth certificate changed, according to the rule.
Post by: _33 on March 01, 2017, 11:45:29 AM
Maybe Texas should take a break from high school sports...They are too into it...Let the kids compete and have fun....Too much worrying about who wins and how my kid didn't win so I'm going to be mad about it.
I think the parents complaining about their girls losing to somebody who has been taking testosterone (Dr's orders or not) has a legitimate gripe. It would suck to work hard enough to get to the state championship only to lose to a transgender man who has been taking testosterone therapy.
Yes.
I have zero issue with trans people, but I also don't really like the idea of teenagers with still developing brains and bodies taking steps to physically alter their gender either. Seems a bit irresponsible on the doctor and parent's part, but I'm def not an expert on the issue.
The experts agree with you I think. Or at least a lot of them do.
Post by: SdK on March 01, 2017, 11:47:17 AM
That's what I thought. But if his birth certificate said female still and had a penis it would have all went down this way? Not saying there is anything sexual about wrestling. But I think not all parents would feel the same.I'm curious how this would have played out if he had already had the genital operation. Maybe he has, I dunno.
He has to get his birth certificate changed, according to the rule.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on March 01, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
Pretty sure edna was being sarcastic and properly antagonizing how absurd it is for a boy to be competing against girls.
But he is a she, so this is the way it should be?
If you guys aren't on board with a separate but equal league, we should probably just ban them all from competition and bathrooms.
From a physical standpoint, a boy who lops off his dick is a boy-unik, not a girl.
It's one thing for boy-unik to dress up like a girl and go potty in the girls' room. It's another to force girls to compete in sports against boys (incl boy-uniks), especially sports as physically demanding as wrestling.
Sometimes people (particularly libtards) need to be told when they're being ridiculous. Even if it hurts their feelings or makes them feel like an "outsider". It's not fair to the 99.99999% of girls who want to play sports against other girls, not boys or boy-uniks.
Post by: star seed 7 on March 01, 2017, 12:51:27 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on March 01, 2017, 12:54:36 PM
I don't need you to audit all of my posts. Go away pls, thx.
Post by: SdK on March 01, 2017, 12:55:28 PM
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk
Post by: star seed 7 on March 01, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
It feels like fsd is maybe a little unclear on the details of this case
Confirmed
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on March 01, 2017, 12:59:59 PM
Post by: SdK on March 01, 2017, 01:10:18 PM
Post by: Phil Titola on March 01, 2017, 01:38:31 PM
With respect to the story: nobody taking steroids should be allowed to compete. Duh
That seems reasonable.
Post by: everyone shut up on March 01, 2017, 08:10:07 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on March 01, 2017, 08:23:21 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 01, 2017, 08:56:24 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 01, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
On the other hand, thinking back to my self-conscious teen years, it has got to take some serious conviction for a kid to want to go down that road in high school.
Post by: SdK on March 01, 2017, 10:27:10 PM
We would look into it long and hard and take a lot of visits to therapy and make sure. I'd think biologically, it'd be best to start hormones at puberty. Surgery would wait until they were in 18.
Post by: everyone shut up on March 02, 2017, 12:40:16 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 02, 2017, 01:04:26 PM
How long until some hipster couple from Portland have a transgender reveal party for their fetus?
like tomorrow probably
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on March 02, 2017, 01:52:55 PM
Post by: cfbandyman on March 02, 2017, 02:01:54 PM
https://twitter.com/lanadelcunt/status/654350254007971840?lang=en
Yeah, no, that's too far. Good grief.
Part of me thinks I would not let my kid get plastic surgery to change their body at least before they're 18, so why would I let them transition to a different sex before then?
On the other hand, thinking back to my self-conscious teen years, it has got to take some serious conviction for a kid to want to go down that road in high school.
Agreed on both accounts. But this is another (in a long series of items like drinking age, smoking, etc.) where we need to have a more universal definition of what constitutes an "adult." Like, it's fine if this kid wants to be a man, but all the hormonal treatments and whatnot should wait (unless he got parents permission, which I'm assuming happened) until they are 18.
I know that doesn't necessarily fix all situations, or this one, but I can understand if a parent denies their child to do something until they are a legal adult (18, or w/e we decide it is) to do things, if in their best interest.
Post by: SdK on March 02, 2017, 02:12:40 PM
Post by: SdK on March 02, 2017, 02:13:12 PM
Post by: everyone shut up on March 02, 2017, 06:49:56 PM
Post by: SdK on March 02, 2017, 07:03:01 PM
Post by: SdK on March 02, 2017, 07:03:37 PM
Post by: SdK on March 02, 2017, 07:03:54 PM
He is also gets his first mustache. It looks like when women have a mustache thoughGetting*
Post by: slackcat on July 19, 2017, 11:13:37 PM
ha,ha
Post by: SdK on July 19, 2017, 11:56:37 PM
Post by: slackcat on July 20, 2017, 06:53:57 AM
Take that bitches.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 07, 2021, 08:31:54 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 07, 2021, 09:04:26 AM
#metoo: Unless it’s a conservative woman or not advancing our insane agenda
Sit down and shut up cisgendered female athletes (#blueanon)
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 07, 2021, 09:12:01 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 07, 2021, 09:17:25 AM
I'd be really pissed if my daughter was getting beat by him. Especially at that level.It’s now costing non major sport scholarship opportunities because many schools don’t have the budgets to scout/attend all state championship events. So cisgendered athletes being pushed down the rankings or podium finishes by transgendered athletes are in some cases missing recruitment opportunities.
Post by: catastrophe on December 07, 2021, 09:38:43 AM
Where is this happening, Dax?I'd be really pissed if my daughter was getting beat by him. Especially at that level.It’s now costing non major sport scholarship opportunities because many schools don’t have the budgets to scout/attend all state championship events. So cisgendered athletes being pushed down the rankings or podium finishes by transgendered athletes are in some cases missing recruitment opportunities.
And Wacky, just don’t tell your daughter that people born male are automatically superior at sports. Records are made to be broken.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 07, 2021, 11:58:35 AM
There was a lawsuit in Connecticut for starters.Where is this happening, Dax?I'd be really pissed if my daughter was getting beat by him. Especially at that level.It’s now costing non major sport scholarship opportunities because many schools don’t have the budgets to scout/attend all state championship events. So cisgendered athletes being pushed down the rankings or podium finishes by transgendered athletes are in some cases missing recruitment opportunities.
And Wacky, just don’t tell your daughter that people born male are automatically superior at sports. Records are made to be broken.
But I appreciate your message to cisgendered female athletes that they just need to do better.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 07, 2021, 12:00:56 PM
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 07, 2021, 12:30:06 PM
The #blueanon narrative that there is no basis in science is also bullshit.
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
Who is saying they don't have an advantage?
Post by: LickNeckey on December 07, 2021, 01:10:13 PM
duh
Post by: catastrophe on December 07, 2021, 01:10:44 PM
The #blueanon narrative that there is no basis in science is also bullshit.The #blueanon narrative is that no one is switching genders in order to gain a competitive advantage among their peers. Without bothering to look it up, I’m also pretty confident that trans athletes who compete at high enough levels to overshadow otherwise scholarship athletes are extremely rare.
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
The link you posted suggests that most competitive advantages disappear after two years on hormone therapy.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on December 07, 2021, 01:12:29 PM
So that person should have to wait two years to compete then, right?The #blueanon narrative that there is no basis in science is also bullshit.The #blueanon narrative is that no one is switching genders in order to gain a competitive advantage among their peers.
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
The link you posted suggests that most competitive advantages disappear after two years on hormone therapy.
Post by: catastrophe on December 07, 2021, 01:16:21 PM
To compete at professional or elite levels like the Olympics or pro sports, I think that would be an entirely reasonable standard to put in place if the science backs it up.So that person should have to wait two years to compete then, right?The #blueanon narrative that there is no basis in science is also bullshit.The #blueanon narrative is that no one is switching genders in order to gain a competitive advantage among their peers.
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
The link you posted suggests that most competitive advantages disappear after two years on hormone therapy.
To compete in something like HS track (where I’d venture to guess over 90% of participants have no real stake in the outcome) I think it’s a bit ridiculous.
Post by: MadCat on December 07, 2021, 01:57:38 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 01:39:08 AM
I'd be really pissed if my daughter was getting beat by him. Especially at that level.
So all that talk about your gay uncle was just total bullshit. Figures.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 01:57:35 AM
https://twitter.com/KirstiMiller30/status/1468383054699712518
Culture warriors will continue to be mad about absolutely nothing though.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 03:22:15 AM
How do the two even compare? I knew you’d come in here all hot and bothered. Jesus, relax. If you think it’s fair, that’s your opinion, MAN.I'd be really pissed if my daughter was getting beat by him. Especially at that level.
So all that talk about your gay uncle was just total bullshit. Figures.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 08:12:42 AM
How do the two even compare? I knew you’d come in here all hot and bothered. Jesus, relax. If you think it’s fair, that’s your opinion, MAN.I'd be really pissed if my daughter was getting beat by him. Especially at that level.
So all that talk about your gay uncle was just total bullshit. Figures.
Purposefully misgendering someone you've never met because they got some fast swimming times is totally reasonable and definitely different than some stranger calling your uncle a man of taste and distinction. Really good point wacky.
Also are you trying to shame me for taking exception you to bring a bigot? LOL, my sentence constitutes me getting "hot and bothered" but you misgendering that woman isn't? Good stuff as always.
Post by: star seed 7 on December 08, 2021, 08:22:35 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 08:27:15 AM
Being on board with gay rights, same sex marriage, etc. and also thinking a transgender athlete shouldn't have an advantage in said sports, are completely different things, MIR. But go off, KING!
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 08:29:20 AM
420seriouscat69, statements like that really make it seem like you're bothered by more than perceived competitive advantagesNope, just the advantages, especially since they were already a member of the men's team.
Post by: star seed 7 on December 08, 2021, 08:37:00 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 08:40:52 AM
Then why are you insulting the athlete instead of discussing a solution?I was trying to institute how a parent would feel, if their daughter fell short to make the team or get a scholarship, because someone jumped from the men's team to the women's team in a matter of years.
Also, MIR, my uncle would agree with me on this position FWIW. I guess I'm just a big ole transphobe when it comes to athletics.
Post by: catastrophe on December 08, 2021, 08:55:19 AM
You still seem to be missing MIR’s main issue with your post, which is you referred to someone as “him” when they clearly don’t want to be referred to as a man.Then why are you insulting the athlete instead of discussing a solution?I was trying to institute how a parent would feel, if their daughter fell short to make the team or get a scholarship, because someone jumped from the men's team to the women's team in a matter of years.
Also, MIR, my uncle would agree with me on this position FWIW. I guess I'm just a big ole transphobe when it comes to athletics.
And if your daughter is on that much of a razor’s edge that a trans athlete ends up costing her a scholarship, I really don’t think any healthy parent would be that upset.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 08:57:41 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Being on board with gay rights, same sex marriage, etc. and also thinking a transgender athlete shouldn't have an advantage in said sports, are completely different things, MIR. But go off, KING!
Nah, you're not going to get away with that. My comment was on your intentional and malicious misgendering of her, and I made that clear. You could have made an argument against her competing against other women without making a bigoted statement.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 08:58:16 AM
MIR has issue with everything. Especially from 2-3 am most nights.You still seem to be missing MIR’s main issue with your post, which is you referred to someone as “him” when they clearly don’t want to be referred to as a man.Then why are you insulting the athlete instead of discussing a solution?I was trying to institute how a parent would feel, if their daughter fell short to make the team or get a scholarship, because someone jumped from the men's team to the women's team in a matter of years.
Also, MIR, my uncle would agree with me on this position FWIW. I guess I'm just a big ole transphobe when it comes to athletics.
And if your daughter is on that much of a razor’s edge that a trans athlete ends up costing her a scholarship, I really don’t think any healthy parent would be that upset.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on December 08, 2021, 09:00:26 AM
You still seem to be missing MIR’s main issue with your post, which is you referred to someone as “him” when they clearly don’t want to be referred to as a man.Then why are you insulting the athlete instead of discussing a solution?I was trying to institute how a parent would feel, if their daughter fell short to make the team or get a scholarship, because someone jumped from the men's team to the women's team in a matter of years.
Also, MIR, my uncle would agree with me on this position FWIW. I guess I'm just a big ole transphobe when it comes to athletics.
And if your daughter is on that much of a razor’s edge that a trans athlete ends up costing her a scholarship, I really don’t think any healthy parent would be that upset.
I don't believe you have ever met a parent of an athlete good enough to be on the razor's edge for a D1 scholarship.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 09:03:24 AM
MIR has issue with everything Especially from 2-3 am most nights.You still seem to be missing MIR’s main issue with your post, which is you referred to someone as “him” when they clearly don’t want to be referred to as a man.Then why are you insulting the athlete instead of discussing a solution?I was trying to institute how a parent would feel, if their daughter fell short to make the team or get a scholarship, because someone jumped from the men's team to the women's team in a matter of years.
Also, MIR, my uncle would agree with me on this position FWIW. I guess I'm just a big ole transphobe when it comes to athletics.
And if your daughter is on that much of a razor’s edge that a trans athlete ends up costing her a scholarship, I really don’t think any healthy parent would be that upset.
This isn't about me, no matter how much you try to deflect this. Dax and yla are managing to have this conversation without doing what you did
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 09:04:50 AM
You literally referred to my uncle. GTFOH, MIR! Like that had any relevancy. :facepalm:
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 09:20:57 AM
The #blueanon narrative that there is no basis in science is also bullshit.
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/
Who is saying they don't have an advantage?
Most people who have looked at the actual very isolated cases of this happening would say that. First of all saying all transgendered athletes have X. Is silly, there are no absolutes.
Dax's link deals in the hypothetical, you can very easily look at actual cases to see there's no basis to the claim that transgender athletes, specifically male to female, have a built in advantage. The case that gets conservatives the most worked up, MMA fighter Fallon Fox, who won her first fight, proceeded to lose to fighters who were born as women. The trans woman who was on New Zealand's Olympic weightlifting team this summer that everyone got worked up about didn't even make the initial lift. She went to the Olympics and couldn't make one single lift and that's a strength event.
Lia Thomas is getting these fast times because of her body type, she's tall. It's also worth noting that she was a fast swimmer when she was competing as a man
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-from-penn-swims-fastest-times-in-nation-controversy-brewing/
Post by: MakeItRain on December 08, 2021, 09:25:05 AM
:lol:
You literally referred to my uncle. GTFOH, MIR! Like that had any relevancy. :facepalm:
Yeah, I pointed out your obvious hypocrisy. It's fine wacky, I didn't point it out with the expectation of you publicly admitting you shouldn't have done that. I'm certain you realize you mumped up by trying to be funny by misgendering Lia Thomas, we can drop it.
Post by: catastrophe on December 08, 2021, 09:45:27 AM
I certainly haven’t in the context of the farcical hypothetical suggested by 420cat.You still seem to be missing MIR’s main issue with your post, which is you referred to someone as “him” when they clearly don’t want to be referred to as a man.Then why are you insulting the athlete instead of discussing a solution?I was trying to institute how a parent would feel, if their daughter fell short to make the team or get a scholarship, because someone jumped from the men's team to the women's team in a matter of years.
Also, MIR, my uncle would agree with me on this position FWIW. I guess I'm just a big ole transphobe when it comes to athletics.
And if your daughter is on that much of a razor’s edge that a trans athlete ends up costing her a scholarship, I really don’t think any healthy parent would be that upset.
I don't believe you have ever met a parent of an athlete good enough to be on the razor's edge for a D1 scholarship.
Post by: LickNeckey on December 08, 2021, 10:13:00 AM
give the guy a break
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 08, 2021, 10:17:13 AM
Post by: LickNeckey on December 08, 2021, 10:45:53 AM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 08, 2021, 11:12:56 AM
Post by: dal9 on December 08, 2021, 11:18:56 AM
gay uncle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w6UUkkOmgo
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 08, 2021, 01:58:51 PM
The British study was quite clear in recommending to International sport oversight bodies that hormone suppression should go beyond one year.
Adult male athletes have on average a 20% performance advantage their female counterparts, and in certain events and movements that advantage goes as high as 35%.
Additional studies show that transgendered women, even after two years of therapy retain up to a 12% performance advantage over cis-gendered women and based on the limitations of actual performance studies, that number is likely on the low side.
Post by: star seed 7 on December 08, 2021, 02:13:33 PM
The usual #blueanonGe suspects will continue to roll out the usual hypothetical's and one-offs to defend their positions.
Who are you talking about and what is their position?
Post by: Trim on December 08, 2021, 02:28:45 PM
Such competitions are apparently newsworthy, so there'll be more attention and eyeballs on the event and maybe a greater chance of becoming aware to and then observed and noticed by a recruiter/scout.
In something like a swimming competition, the times are the times. So is each swimmer's skills and technique. If next-level opportunities simply came down to who won at a lower-level event, then recruiting/scouting would be a dead industry. And in something where there's direct competition like basketball, I have faith in recruiters and scouts that they can still correctly note a girl's rebounding ability even if that one game is against a larger center.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 09, 2021, 02:45:04 PM
The message to cis-gendered female athletes: Mind your business . . . oh, and strive to be better while keeping your mouth shut
Post by: yoga-like_abana on December 09, 2021, 02:52:24 PM
Let's see how great we can be!
Post by: Brock Landers on December 09, 2021, 02:56:36 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on December 09, 2021, 08:52:00 PM
Congrats to Lia Thomas for winning the 1650 Freestyle in Akron by 38 seconds, while also setting the nations best mark for the 200 meter freestyle and obliterating numerous Ivy League and Penn Women's swimming records.
The message to cis-gendered female athletes: Mind your business . . . oh, and strive to be better while keeping your mouth shut
Why would the message be different that them getting their asses kicked by any other cisgender woman? Why would the message be different than it would if they got beat by Simone Manuel, Katie Ledecky, or Allison Schmidt? There are 50 girls and women on the US Swim team over half of them are in college or are high schoolers, are we giving the girls competing against Olympians special pep talks?
It's an insult to say that this is about the women Lia competes against, y'all really don't care about that. It's about transgender women, it isn't about unfair advantages, that's absurd. Just like critical race theory debates aren't about critical race theory because no elementary, middle, or high school teacher teaches that crap. These culture warriors have to constantly lie about this stuff because they know they're being immortal.
Post by: Cire on December 10, 2021, 05:54:08 AM
GTFOOH with that bull crap
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Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 08:11:48 AM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 10, 2021, 09:08:25 AM
Post by: catastrophe on December 10, 2021, 09:12:22 AM
It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 09:17:46 AM
So now your spitting out hypotheticals too? I don't know anyone like that (and neither do you) and neither is the same, but sure, cat. Genes > personal trainers. It's ok if you think it's fair for a transgenger to go from competing with males to competing vs females. That's your opinion, but stop being rough ridin' weirdos about people who think it might be unfair. Your wokeness is at another level.It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 10, 2021, 09:21:08 AM
It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
Post by: Cire on December 10, 2021, 09:26:52 AM
It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
This
Post by: star seed 7 on December 10, 2021, 09:27:16 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 09:28:16 AM
Post by: Cire on December 10, 2021, 09:28:55 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 09:30:31 AM
I don't think it's a particularly good argument, but my cousin is a private trainer for rich hs baseball kids. It's pretty common in TX, 420seriouscat69.My brother is a personal trainer (so I know) and I had a club take me on to do some special training here in KC for baseball. There's resources out there for additional help, but it's not the same. If you're good enough, someone is willing to help you out there, whether you have the $ or not, because we didn't.
Post by: LickNeckey on December 10, 2021, 10:12:48 AM
Because they need the illusion that their training is impactful.
That is how you get the suburban dorks who want to try and buy and advantage to show up and pay the bills.
Post by: catastrophe on December 10, 2021, 10:14:46 AM
I’m not accusing anyone of being insane. The point is people are born into all kinds of advantages over others. Wacky’s (and your?) choice to call the advantage in the case of someone transitioning as “unfair” is a judgment you’re making. I certainly don’t think you can call it inherently unfair unless you’d also try to prohibit people competing who were born female but have abnormally high testosterone levels or height or strength etc.It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
Post by: 'taterblast on December 10, 2021, 10:14:59 AM
It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
as usual someone sweeps in and voices my thoughts better than i was proving able to.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on December 10, 2021, 10:18:26 AM
Sit this one outI’m not accusing anyone of being insane. The point is people are born into all kinds of advantages over others. Wacky’s (and your?) choice to call the advantage in the case of someone transitioning as “unfair” is a judgment you’re making. I certainly don’t think you can call it inherently unfair unless you’d also try to prohibit people competing who were born female but have abnormally high testosterone levels or height or strength etc.It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 10, 2021, 10:33:14 AM
I’m not accusing anyone of being insane. The point is people are born into all kinds of advantages over others. Wacky’s (and your?) choice to call the advantage in the case of someone transitioning as “unfair” is a judgment you’re making. I certainly don’t think you can call it inherently unfair unless you’d also try to prohibit people competing who were born female but have abnormally high testosterone levels or height or strength etc.It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
clearly this is a discussion you don't actually want to have. NBD
Post by: catastrophe on December 10, 2021, 10:44:49 AM
But to the OP’s question about whether trans athletes should be able to compete in the first place, are you really saying they should only because there are so few?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 10:50:40 AM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 10, 2021, 11:11:49 AM
What’s the discussion? I agree the obvious response to the “dey terk er scholarships” crowd is to note the statistical insignificance of these incidents.
But to the OP’s question about whether trans athletes should be able to compete in the first place, are you really saying they should only because there are so few?
I am fine with them competing.
Post by: bucket on December 10, 2021, 12:00:26 PM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on December 10, 2021, 01:14:22 PM
You never hear these people complain about the spending disparity between men's and women's programs in college. I wonder why that is.Revenue that's why.
Post by: Spracne on December 10, 2021, 01:16:59 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 10, 2021, 01:37:31 PM
You never hear these people complain about the spending disparity between men's and women's programs in college. I wonder why that is.
I assume that since they are so adamant about the sanctity of women's sports it should be funded the same as men.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 10, 2021, 08:21:33 PM
It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!
I don't know why you felt the need to respond to that given I quoted someone else nor did I mention you, but whatever. If the competitive disadvantage is what you're worried about there are many other things much more practical you could have issues with, yet here we are.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 10, 2021, 08:36:49 PM
It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!So I take it you feel the same way about HS athletes who can afford personal trainers, dieticians, equipment, etc. not available to like 90% of HS students?
That's not the same. wack isn't being insane, a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness. It is just so incredibly rare, isolated and inconsequential that it's an obvious dog whistle for clay travis and hale razor to generate retweets.
This guy didn't undergo this process to whip ass in the Ivy league the winter of 2021.
This
No, not this. I mean it's closer but this sentence spoken as an absolute isn't accurate.
"a man undergoing transition competing against women has some inherent unfairness."
In this particular case it's worth pointing out, again, that Lia Thomas was also a very good men's swimmer, her times are actually significantly slower than they werev when she was competing as a man.
I feel like this line of thinking is more about unintentionally minimizing women as athletes than it is playing into tropes about trans women, although it's both. The #2 swimmer on the UPenn swim team is generally faster than some of the men's swimmers down on the roster
Post by: MakeItRain on December 10, 2021, 08:42:25 PM
You never hear these people complain about the spending disparity between men's and women's programs in college. I wonder why that is.Revenue that's why.
Yeah, that men's swimming revenue comes in hand over fist, I can't even imagine how schools can even run without men's swimming, soccer, golf, lacrosse, hockey, baseball, cross country, tennis, etc.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 08:51:23 PM
Bud, I don’t know why this is so close to home with you, but this crap continues to bring you back. Anyways, you said this:It's literally 100% about unfair advantages on my end, but make up whatever rational in your head to fit your agenda, bud. Go cats and Happy Friday (FriYAY!)!
I don't know why you felt the need to respond to that given I quoted someone else nor did I mention you, but whatever. If the competitive disadvantage is what you're worried about there are many other things much more practical you could have issues with, yet here we are.
records.
The message to cis-gendered female athletes: Mind your business . . . oh, and strive to be better while keeping your mouth shut
[/quote]
Why would the message be different that them getting their asses kicked by any other cisgender woman? Why would the message be different than it would if they got beat by Simone Manuel, Katie Ledecky, or Allison Schmidt? There are 50 girls and women on the US Swim team over half of them are in college or are high schoolers, are we giving the girls competing against Olympians special pep talks?
It's an insult to say that this is about the women Lia competes against, y'all really don't care about that. It's about transgender women, it isn't about unfair advantages, that's absurd. Just like critical race theory debates aren't about critical race theory because no elementary, middle, or high school teacher teaches that crap. These culture warriors have to constantly lie about this stuff because they know they're being immortal.
[/quote]“It isn’t about unfair advantages”, etc. as I explain myself that I feel it is. You want to call me a bigot because you met one transgender under your watch, while calling everyone crackers and explaining your plan on how you’d kill MAGA’s if another civil war broke out. Sorry I misused the term “him”, for a person who swam on the guys team for 3 years and is now kicking ass on the women’s team. Jesus, MIR, take a night off.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 10, 2021, 08:59:52 PM
Post by: dal9 on December 11, 2021, 11:50:31 AM
Post by: dal9 on December 11, 2021, 11:51:30 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on December 11, 2021, 02:16:37 PM
im almost certain m and w swimming is funded exactly the same at all/most schools?
Pennsylvania spends 70% more per men's swimmer than they do on their women's swimmers.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on December 11, 2021, 03:20:26 PM
You know exactly what revenue sports I’m talking about don’t be coyYou never hear these people complain about the spending disparity between men's and women's programs in college. I wonder why that is.Revenue that's why.
Yeah, that men's swimming revenue comes in hand over fist, I can't even imagine how schools can even run without men's swimming, soccer, golf, lacrosse, hockey, baseball, cross country, tennis, etc.
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Post by: dal9 on December 11, 2021, 03:58:27 PM
im almost certain m and w swimming is funded exactly the same at all/most schools?
Pennsylvania spends 70% more per men's swimmer than they do on their women's swimmers.
really? i can't imagine what would account for the discrepancy, but i'll take ur word for it
Post by: MakeItRain on December 11, 2021, 10:21:20 PM
You know exactly what revenue sports I’m talking about don’t be coyYou never hear these people complain about the spending disparity between men's and women's programs in college. I wonder why that is.Revenue that's why.
Yeah, that men's swimming revenue comes in hand over fist, I can't even imagine how schools can even run without men's swimming, soccer, golf, lacrosse, hockey, baseball, cross country, tennis, etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah, football revenue doesn't have anything to do with the disparity between the sports that both men and women compete in so I have no idea why you brought it up. I just illustrated one example of this disparity. You're proving bucket's point by taking about football and basketball instead of experiencing outrage about the disparity I brought up
im almost certain m and w swimming is funded exactly the same at all/most schools?
Pennsylvania spends 70% more per men's swimmer than they do on their women's swimmers.
really? i can't imagine what would account for the discrepancy, but i'll take ur word for it
Exactly. Maybe all of you worried about your little girls in sports can focus on very real issues that actually are more likely to affect their athletic experience.
Feel free to look it up yourself.
https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/
Post by: MakeItRain on December 11, 2021, 10:27:00 PM
Post by: IPA4Me on December 13, 2021, 02:57:49 PM
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Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 29, 2021, 11:14:52 AM
Post by: catastrophe on December 29, 2021, 11:34:03 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 29, 2021, 11:37:52 AM
Wow the system actually works.lol. What system are you referring to?
Post by: catastrophe on December 29, 2021, 11:40:44 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 29, 2021, 11:42:49 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 29, 2021, 11:57:01 AM
Post by: catastrophe on December 29, 2021, 12:22:21 PM
It seems to me that the only message would be “you can identify as a girl, just not in a way that impacts my life.” I know no one likes the “phobic” labels but I’m not sure what else you would file that under.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 29, 2021, 12:56:39 PM
Why is it so rough ridin' hard for you to comprehend these ladies saw her compete as a man, when she was a man, and now they're competing against her two years later and they're afraid to make a stink about it, because they might get cancelled, even though they feel she might have some genetic advantages against them. Keep doubling down tho. It's very enjoyable to read. It's amazing to me how some people's brains work. Very impressive.
Post by: ChiComCat on December 29, 2021, 01:41:26 PM
Post by: Trim on December 29, 2021, 02:06:16 PM
Quote
A group of swimmers on the University of Pennsylvania women's team
Quote
'Knowing they do not have backing from the school or NCAA, they're reluctant to jeopardize their opportunity to make the elite Ivy League squad,' the source said.
Post by: MakeItRain on December 29, 2021, 02:38:59 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 31, 2021, 12:19:33 AM
https://twitter.com/intlmischief/status/1476724203315421188?s=21
Post by: Katpappy on December 31, 2021, 09:49:50 AM
:lol:
https://twitter.com/intlmischief/status/1476724203315421188?s=21
:lol:
Post by: nicname on December 31, 2021, 12:46:44 PM
So many comments, especially the one getting on the dad for not retroactively calling his kid a her/daughter = woof city.:lol:
https://twitter.com/intlmischief/status/1476724203315421188?s=21
:lol:
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Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 31, 2021, 01:19:06 PM
Yup! Really love the ones shaming him about having his kids do chores and him exploiting their labor. We need an asteroid to hit earth, stat!So many comments, especially the one getting on the dad for not retroactively calling his kid a her/daughter = woof city.:lol:
https://twitter.com/intlmischief/status/1476724203315421188?s=21
:lol:
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(https://c.tenor.com/iwEQdcPorgwAAAAd/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-stupid.gif)
Post by: nicname on December 31, 2021, 01:32:15 PM
Nah bro, just live your life in the real world. Avoid social media and general media stimulation as much as possible. Focus on your family, friends, neighborhood, etc.Yup! Really love the ones shaming him about having his kids do chores and him exploiting their labor. We need an asteroid to hit earth, stat!So many comments, especially the one getting on the dad for not retroactively calling his kid a her/daughter = woof city.:lol:
https://twitter.com/intlmischief/status/1476724203315421188?s=21
:lol:
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(https://c.tenor.com/iwEQdcPorgwAAAAd/its-always-sunny-in-philadelphia-stupid.gif)
Live your life let the noise fall on deaf ears.
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Post by: 420seriouscat69 on December 31, 2021, 01:38:51 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on January 05, 2022, 09:02:59 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.metroweekly.com/2021/12/jeopardy-champ-amy-schneider-becomes-highest-earning-woman-of-all-time/amp/
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 05, 2022, 10:02:42 AM
Are you ready to be PISSED?!?I thought it said Amy Schumer at first and I was about to be. What an unfunny hack.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.metroweekly.com/2021/12/jeopardy-champ-amy-schneider-becomes-highest-earning-woman-of-all-time/amp/
Post by: star seed 7 on January 05, 2022, 10:06:53 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 05, 2022, 10:15:16 AM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on January 05, 2022, 10:20:49 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on January 05, 2022, 12:11:26 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 05, 2022, 12:32:22 PM
Post by: dal9 on January 05, 2022, 01:17:18 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on January 08, 2022, 05:29:26 PM
Post by: nicname on January 08, 2022, 06:00:49 PM
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1479957588431286278?s=21
The world is a crazy place man.
Post by: steve dave on January 08, 2022, 07:17:54 PM
Post by: dal9 on January 08, 2022, 11:06:49 PM
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1479957588431286278?s=21
oh man lol
edit: actually the one that won is F to M, but hasn't started taking hormones yet supposedly. so it's a legit win. i'm not sure how much advantage having ur breasts removed gives, but there's no rule against it for anyone
Post by: Trim on January 08, 2022, 11:20:28 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on January 08, 2022, 11:52:43 PM
Post by: michigancat on January 09, 2022, 08:30:42 AM
There's a hell of a story behind Iszac Henig, but the alarmists don't want to tell it, he completely ruins the narrative.I was wondering why I'd never heard of her when they'd been going on and on about Lia Thomas for weeks
Post by: Katpappy on January 09, 2022, 01:53:56 PM
Wacky's uncle on a stroll?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 17, 2022, 07:10:53 PM
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1504597721063305221?s=21
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 17, 2022, 09:25:38 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 17, 2022, 09:28:28 PM
Just updating on Lia. I’ve moved on, but I thought it was worth it was a update. Wish it wasn’t Clay with it:
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1504597721063305221?s=21
Clay Travis probably represents your views of the world better than anyone in media.
Anyway, congrats on moving on
Post by: steve dave on March 17, 2022, 09:29:30 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 17, 2022, 09:51:49 PM
#thumbsup
Post by: Institutional Control on March 17, 2022, 09:56:10 PM
#blueanon: Officially moving on from women’s rights when greater virtue signaling opportunities are to be had . . .Are you putting wacky in the #blueanon cult?
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 17, 2022, 11:34:17 PM
#blueanon: Officially moving on from women’s rights when greater virtue signaling opportunities are to be had . . .Are you putting wacky in the #blueanon cult?
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Trouble reading this thread?
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 03:27:17 AM
Now .00004% of all women's national champions have been transgender athletes, someone protect women's sports from what is a very clear attempt at erasure of women.
Also Clay Travis is a very well known long time supporter of women's athletics, his interest in NCAA women's swimming and diving isn't at all sinister. I'm looking forward to his women's tournament breakdown and the segment on his show about Caitlin Clark getting screwed out the national player of the year award.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 09:57:55 AM
Hope this helped you, @michigancat.Just updating on Lia. I’ve moved on, but I thought it was worth it was a update. Wish it wasn’t Clay with it:
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1504597721063305221?s=21
Clay Travis probably represents your views of the world better than anyone in media.
Anyway, congrats on moving on
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:00:01 AM
The NCAA has sponsored women's sports for exactly 40 years. In 2021 the NCAA awarded 425 team and individual championships to women. Congrats to Lia Thomas for being the first transgender athlete to win a women's NCAA national championship 1 out of over 25,000 women national champions who have won team and or individual championships, not to mention the thousands and thousands of NAIA and NJCAA all time champions.To be fair, you said you couldn't wait for Lia to lose in the postseason so this could be a non story and everyone else could move on. :dunno:
Now .00004% of all women's national champions have been transgender athletes, someone protect women's sports from what is a very clear attempt at erasure of women.
Also Clay Travis is a very well known long time supporter of women's athletics, his interest in NCAA women's swimming and diving isn't at all sinister. I'm looking forward to his women's tournament breakdown and the segment on his show about Caitlin Clark getting screwed out the national player of the year award.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:03:19 AM
Post by: Fedor on March 18, 2022, 10:11:04 AM
The NCAA has sponsored women's sports for exactly 40 years. In 2021 the NCAA awarded 425 team and individual championships to women. Congrats to Lia Thomas for being the first transgender athlete to win a women's NCAA national championship 1 out of over 25,000 women national champions who have won team and or individual championships, not to mention the thousands and thousands of NAIA and NJCAA all time champions.Yes, Mr. Floyd you were murdered today, but think of all the previous days you were not murdered.
Now .00004% of all women's national champions have been transgender athletes, someone protect women's sports from what is a very clear attempt at erasure of women.
Also Clay Travis is a very well known long time supporter of women's athletics, his interest in NCAA women's swimming and diving isn't at all sinister. I'm looking forward to his women's tournament breakdown and the segment on his show about Caitlin Clark getting screwed out the national player of the year award.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:13:55 AM
Thought about it, decided the advantage wasn't worth jeopardizing the conference championship meet. Pretty much says it all to me. I can't wait until March so we don't have to hear about Lia Thomas from conservatives again, until she loses at the Olympic Trials in 2024.:love:
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 18, 2022, 10:14:19 AM
https://twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1504758276638253056?s=20&t=ST9SyeJkkT_gtXPf0vxjNQ
wacky, my brother in christ, what exactly is your point? Is this supposed to be validation for you that you are on the right side of history or like, what are you aiming for here?
Post by: ChiComCat on March 18, 2022, 10:16:23 AM
Thought about it, decided the advantage wasn't worth jeopardizing the conference championship meet. Pretty much says it all to me. I can't wait until March so we don't have to hear about Lia Thomas from conservatives again, until she loses at the Olympic Trials in 2024.:love:
Weird victory lap. Nothing he posted there is inaccurate.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 10:17:17 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:18:21 AM
She'll be in the Olympics tho. Wishing for something so the story can go away says it all. It's wrong!Thought about it, decided the advantage wasn't worth jeopardizing the conference championship meet. Pretty much says it all to me. I can't wait until March so we don't have to hear about Lia Thomas from conservatives again, until she loses at the Olympic Trials in 2024.:love:
Weird victory lap. Nothing he posted there is inaccurate.
Post by: ChiComCat on March 18, 2022, 10:19:11 AM
She'll be in the Olympics tho. Wishing for something so the story can go away says it all. It's wrong!Thought about it, decided the advantage wasn't worth jeopardizing the conference championship meet. Pretty much says it all to me. I can't wait until March so we don't have to hear about Lia Thomas from conservatives again, until she loses at the Olympic Trials in 2024.:love:
Weird victory lap. Nothing he posted there is inaccurate.
Then enjoy the victory lap in 2024
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:20:57 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 18, 2022, 10:35:42 AM
In fact if anything is going to negatively impact them, its that they decided to pose for that photo intentionally distancing themselves from Lia. I am quite certain if there is anything that is going to hurt their future prospects its that they decided to stand away from her for the photos which comes off as petty and cruel and does nothing to change the official results of the competition.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:40:25 AM
Post by: Institutional Control on March 18, 2022, 10:47:26 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 10:49:36 AM
Post by: ChiComCat on March 18, 2022, 10:54:27 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 11:20:18 AM
The NCAA has sponsored women's sports for exactly 40 years. In 2021 the NCAA awarded 425 team and individual championships to women. Congrats to Lia Thomas for being the first transgender athlete to win a women's NCAA national championship 1 out of over 25,000 women national champions who have won team and or individual championships, not to mention the thousands and thousands of NAIA and NJCAA all time champions.To be fair, you said you couldn't wait for Lia to lose in the postseason so this could be a non story and everyone else could move on. :dunno:
Now .00004% of all women's national champions have been transgender athletes, someone protect women's sports from what is a very clear attempt at erasure of women.
Also Clay Travis is a very well known long time supporter of women's athletics, his interest in NCAA women's swimming and diving isn't at all sinister. I'm looking forward to his women's tournament breakdown and the segment on his show about Caitlin Clark getting screwed out the national player of the year award.
Are you confused about the difference between the 2022 NCAA Championships and the 2024 Olympic Trials?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Post by: Spracne on March 18, 2022, 11:48:31 AM
Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
Here we can see the posting of a guy who's clearly "over it."
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 11:49:39 AM
The NCAA has sponsored women's sports for exactly 40 years. In 2021 the NCAA awarded 425 team and individual championships to women. Congrats to Lia Thomas for being the first transgender athlete to win a women's NCAA national championship 1 out of over 25,000 women national champions who have won team and or individual championships, not to mention the thousands and thousands of NAIA and NJCAA all time champions.Yes, Mr. Floyd you were murdered today, but think of all the previous days you were not murdered.
Now .00004% of all women's national champions have been transgender athletes, someone protect women's sports from what is a very clear attempt at erasure of women.
Also Clay Travis is a very well known long time supporter of women's athletics, his interest in NCAA women's swimming and diving isn't at all sinister. I'm looking forward to his women's tournament breakdown and the segment on his show about Caitlin Clark getting screwed out the national player of the year award.
Oh man. Thanks for this.
Let's just ignore the fact that your comparison is someone literally getting murdered to someone winning a goddamn swim race, I mean lol wtf and all that but let's ignore this sheer stupidity.
As established Lia Thomas was the first ever trans college athlete to win a women's national championship. There have literally been millions of women's college athletes, there's been one who is a trans woman who has won a national championship, one. Uno. Une. Between 2012 and 2021 alone there were 2910 documented cases of police officers killing, justified or not, black people. Literally as long as policing in this country has existed, they've been killing black people. I'm sure no one would be shocked if the first ever civilian killed by a cop in this country was a runaway slave or a slave who looked at a white woman, or didn't pick tobacco fast enough.
.002% of the United States population identifies as a trans woman. .0008% of the United States population are women's college athletes, less than 2% of that .0008 will win a national championship. Maybe someone, other than mocat, can do that math but it seems to me the odds of their being a transwoman college athletes is microscopic, the odds of a transwoman becoming a NCAA champion is less likely than banking on winning the powerball.
Gonna take a shot in the dark here and guess it's much easier for a black dude to get murdered by a cop than it is for a transwoman to win a NCAA national championship.
As an actual supporter of women's sports I really appreciate your new found support. I hope that support manifests itself in tangible ways outside of chasing unicorns or getting swept up in culture wars on the internet.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 11:51:54 AM
Spracs, I do appreciate your once moderate position, to quickly falling for all things left these days, because dax. It was an odd transformation, but you did it!Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
Here we can see the posting of a guy who's clearly "over it."
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 11:53:25 AM
Trans athletes really shouldn't be competing in any sport that regulates drug use. There just isn't a fair way to allow for it.
Can you expand on this? Specifically the drug use part.
Post by: Spracne on March 18, 2022, 11:58:59 AM
Spracs, I do appreciate your once moderate position, to quickly falling for all things left these days, because dax. It was an odd transformation, but you did it!Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
Here we can see the posting of a guy who's clearly "over it."
You don't even know my personal position on this (which has admittedly changed over the course of time). I was merely pointing out you resurrected this thread with the comment that you were "over it now" and then proceeded to demonstrate that you were not, in fact, over it.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 12:01:46 PM
When backed into a corner, I fight back. Mich's response triggered tf out of me. Comparing me to rough ridin' clay travis, because I don't huff all far left fart talking points.Spracs, I do appreciate your once moderate position, to quickly falling for all things left these days, because dax. It was an odd transformation, but you did it!Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
Here we can see the posting of a guy who's clearly "over it."
You don't even know my personal position on this (which has admittedly changed over the course of time). I was merely pointing out you resurrected this thread with the comment that you were "over it now" and then proceeded to demonstrate that you were not, in fact, over it.
Post by: Kid In the Hall on March 18, 2022, 12:06:58 PM
This is a pretty interesting/nuanced take on the Thomas situation, how ESPN refused to cover it for weeks/months and how that refusal helps amplify goons like Clay Travis. It's about 6-weeks old, but still pertinent.
https://houseofstrauss.substack.com/p/narrated-article-clay-travis-is-your?s=r
[Resume fight]
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 12:10:59 PM
I agree that she has an unfair advantage. I might be upset if my daughter was swimming against her. But she isn't, so I don't really care.
What's her unfair advantage?
Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
I kinda went into this with my reply to fedor but I want the story to go away because it's 100% a nonstory and no matter how much evidence that's put out there that shows this whole thing has been a manipulation by conservative media to get people to battle needless culture wars, people will willingly or unwillingly continue to talk about this and support legislation that serves no purpose other than continue to marginalize the most maligned and marginalized sector of our society.
Yes, Lia Thomas won the national championship. Does it matter if I tell you that the woman who finished in second is cisgender and she's a freshman and she's likely to put up faster times than Lia Thomas did as a senior as early as next year? Her name is Emma Want she's from Virginia. Someone want to tell me what her unfair disadvantage is? Katie Ledecky is the NCAA record holder in the 500 free, what's her unfair advantage?
Lia Thomas is a once in a generation confluence of events and people are using her to discriminate against a sector of our population. It's heartbreaking and disgusting that so many people are okay with it without attempting to read anything about what happening outside of some tweets.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 18, 2022, 12:24:03 PM
When backed into a corner, I fight back. Mich's response triggered tf out of me. Comparing me to rough ridin' clay travis, because I don't huff all far left fart talking points.Spracs, I do appreciate your once moderate position, to quickly falling for all things left these days, because dax. It was an odd transformation, but you did it!Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
Here we can see the posting of a guy who's clearly "over it."
You don't even know my personal position on this (which has admittedly changed over the course of time). I was merely pointing out you resurrected this thread with the comment that you were "over it now" and then proceeded to demonstrate that you were not, in fact, over it.
Vladicat08
Post by: IPA4Me on March 18, 2022, 12:43:09 PM
Post by: ChiComCat on March 18, 2022, 01:08:52 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 18, 2022, 01:09:31 PM
Whether its fair to let her compete could be an interesting and productive discussion, but the Clay Travises of the world who always end up pushing coverage about it are not interested in facilitating that discussion.
I’ve already said that if the sport wants to establish an acceptable range of hormone levels (or something like a height or weight requirement like in wrestling) in order to complete, I don’t really have a problem with that. However, if the issue is simply that a specific athlete is both good and trans, then yeah I don’t know what else you call it than transphobic.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 01:18:15 PM
Trans athletes really shouldn't be competing in any sport that regulates drug use. There just isn't a fair way to allow for it.
Can you expand on this? Specifically the drug use part.
Trans people take hormones. Non-trans people aren't allowed to do that. Granted, the hormones a female trans athlete takes hinder performance, but that athlete also has a lot of natural hormones due to being born male, and it's impossible to regulate that fairly.
Post by: Spracne on March 18, 2022, 01:22:07 PM
Trans athletes really shouldn't be competing in any sport that regulates drug use. There just isn't a fair way to allow for it.
Can you expand on this? Specifically the drug use part.
Trans people take hormones. Non-trans people aren't allowed to do that. Granted, the hormones a female trans athlete takes hinder performance, but that athlete also has a lot of natural hormones due to being born male, and it's impossible to regulate that fairly.
Is it?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 01:25:35 PM
Trans athletes really shouldn't be competing in any sport that regulates drug use. There just isn't a fair way to allow for it.
Can you expand on this? Specifically the drug use part.
Trans people take hormones. Non-trans people aren't allowed to do that. Granted, the hormones a female trans athlete takes hinder performance, but that athlete also has a lot of natural hormones due to being born male, and it's impossible to regulate that fairly.
Is it?
Yes
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 01:27:37 PM
Post by: ChiComCat on March 18, 2022, 01:36:26 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 18, 2022, 02:06:53 PM
Maybe there are fair ways to regulate people who transitioned prior to puberty. I have no idea how you can even define what's fair for people like Lia Thomas who transition in their 20s.
I find the notion preposterous that a male athlete would go through puberty and then transition (hormone therapy, gender reassignment potentially) as a ruse, solely to gain a competitive advantage against lesser competition. There are a ton of female athletes who are physically and genetically gifted that could absolutely whip my ass in any physical competition, including a fist fight. Is it fair that they have those physical and genetic advantages that other female athletes don't? Should they be penalized because of it?
Look at the shoulders on this broad:
(https://www.si.com/.image/t_share/MTgyNzQ1NTE4NDU4MjgzNDI3/ledecky-1500-gold-lead.jpg)
I think the discussion (the legitimate one, not those being had in random pockets of the internet) is coalescing around requiring that certain hormone levels (e.g., testosterone) fall within certain ranges. In athletics, you can never guarantee physical parity (Britney Griner can dunk a basketball; I can't), but you can attempt to ensure that no athlete has an unfair chemical advantage. There's obviously a lot to think through. What if a female athlete (assigned F at birth) just naturally produces more testosterone than other women, for example? Would we have to require her to undergo hormone therapy to get within the same acceptable range for trans athletes? Or would those ranges only apply to trans athletes?
At the end of the day, what we, as laypersons, can and should be doing now is not attacking the trans athletes themselves who are merely trying to navigate a complicated and evolving system. (I am NOT implying you are doing so, to be clear.) Instead, we should focus on developing rules and systems that are as fair as possible. Everybody deserves dignity.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 02:15:13 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 18, 2022, 02:50:23 PM
It goes through some pains not to take sides so not going to be part of anyone’s winning argument, but a few points I found interesting:
1. The issue of whether certain testosterone levels should be acceptable in women’s sports has been around a while. I only skimmed but I don’t think the cases it mentioned are trans athletes.
2. There is a surprising amount of overlap between the “normal” range of testosterone in males vs females.
3. Arguably this just means that any sport concerned about “chemical fairness” needs to take into account a combination of measurable hormones, not just testosterone.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 03:00:25 PM
In Lia Thomas's case, she was competing at the collegiate level as a man. That is a lot of weight lifting and muscle development with a body chemistry that females simply don't have. I really don't see it as all that different than a female athlete doping to bulk up, and then discontinuing the drugs to compete. She would still have added muscle mass providing some advantage.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 18, 2022, 03:02:23 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 18, 2022, 03:03:46 PM
No matter how effectively you regulate hormone therapy to be "fair," if a trans swimmer is winning then people will be upset. People aren't debating the results of her hormone therapies anywhere significant, they're debating her competing while trans.^bingo
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 18, 2022, 03:09:39 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 18, 2022, 03:33:16 PM
We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.
I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily. Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.
What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.
If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 03:40:28 PM
ESPN and a handful of extra woke gE members taking the contrary approach. Definitely not seeing how this is remotely fair to any of the women involved. I'm even reading trans folk questioning the intent.
This is such horseshit, I would think you would be a rough ridin' adult and be able to have a conversation without using the term woke but that's apparently too much to ask. It's pretty rough ridin' disappointing to be honest. You must not be aware of this but it's possible to have an option about this without any political bend at all.
The thing that you and the rest of the it's not fair people continue to fail to reference is what's not fair about it? I haven't seen a single person be able to articulate what actual physical advantage she has that another woman can't have? You say it's unfair, be a big boy and tell us why it's unfair.
I don't think having a dick makes you a faster swimmer.
We have no idea what her levels of testosterone or estrogen levels are. And there's no proof at all as to what the hormonal tipping point is even if we did know her hormone levels.
There are several cis women swimmers that have very similar bodies as Lia and there are several men swimmers and otherwise are significantly smaller than Lia. Are y'all proposing weight classes in distance swimming? Katie Ledecky is just as big as Thomas and they're both the same size as Mark Spitz was, should we do a hormone check for Ledecky too? Missy Franklin is bigger, she's closer to Michael Phelps size than Ledecky and Thomas.
These arguments have jack crap to do with science and everything to do with ones view on transgender people and your use of the term woke reveals that buck naked truth. Maybe deal with your internal struggle about that before you saddle other people with wokeness.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 18, 2022, 03:45:00 PM
Post by: IPA4Me on March 18, 2022, 03:51:36 PM
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Post by: IPA4Me on March 18, 2022, 03:52:43 PM
Women's champion.
Nah. No advantage. GTFO.
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Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 04:01:38 PM
British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.
We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.
I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily. Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.
What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.
If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.
Big shocker I know but Dax is lying about the race, btw. Saying she pulled away and won handily is his interpretation. The clock said she won a 4.33 second race by 1.7 seconds, almost exactly the gap between 1st and 2nd the last three times this race has been contested at the national championships. Just an FYI but Thomas' time would have won last year's meet by .2 of a second but would have lost in 2019 by nearly 2 whole seconds.
Also worth noting that the Olympic sliver medalist was 19 years old when she won that medal and is 4 years younger than Thomas, she will be the gold medal favorite in Paris.
Also no one is attempting to silence anyone, what a rough ridin' ridiculous notion in America. Real people aren't talking about this outside of twitter and message boards. Just a rough ridin' clownish and cartoonish thing to say, but I guess I can't be surprised by this from people who search under every rock to find something to feel victimized by.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 04:02:56 PM
Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.
Women's champion.
Nah. No advantage. GTFO.
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What's. The rough ridin'. Advantage.
How many more posts will you have before you actually address that?
Post by: IPA4Me on March 18, 2022, 04:05:10 PM
The years of muscle development while testosterone is pumping through his body.Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.
Women's champion.
Nah. No advantage. GTFO.
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What's. The rough ridin'. Advantage.
How many more posts will you have before you actually address that?
How can you be so dense about this? It's simple rough ridin' biology.
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 18, 2022, 04:07:58 PM
British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.
We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.
I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily. Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.
What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.
If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.
Big shocker I know but Dax is lying about the race, btw. Saying she pulled away and won handily is his interpretation. The clock said she won a 4.33 second race by 1.7 seconds, almost exactly the gap between 1st and 2nd the last three times this race has been contested at the national championships. Just an FYI but Thomas' time would have won last year's meet by .2 of a second but would have lost in 2019 by nearly 2 whole seconds.
Also worth noting that the Olympic sliver medalist was 19 years old when she won that medal and is 4 years younger than Thomas, she will be the gold medal favorite in Paris.
Also no one is attempting to silence anyone, what a rough ridin' ridiculous notion in America. Real people aren't talking about this outside of twitter and message boards. Just a rough ridin' clownish and cartoonish thing to say, but I guess I can't be surprised by this from people who search under every rock to find something to feel victimized by.
There's quite literally nothing more :lol: then trying to back up your ridiculous argument by stating that we don't know if having a dong makes you a faster swimmer or not.
When everyone knows this has literally nothing to do with regular Joe's and Jill's walking the streets of America.
Relative to silencing, you must live in some sort of information vacuum. Goodness gracious. For example they just tried to have a forum featuring a pro Christian advocacy group and a non-Christian rights (Atheist) group at Harvard and the Harvard law students showed up several hundred strong and got the whole thing shut down because they didn't like the Christian advocacy group. The forum was about free speech and how the two groups had actually worked together. I digress.
You also know full well that individual events and conditions etc. etc. can impact performance so what the times were in past years is immaterial.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 18, 2022, 04:08:50 PM
Post by: MadCat on March 18, 2022, 04:27:52 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 18, 2022, 04:31:17 PM
Those are some sexy af stats to inform the conversation.British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.
We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.
I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily. Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.
What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.
If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.
Big shocker I know but Dax is lying about the race, btw. Saying she pulled away and won handily is his interpretation. The clock said she won a 4.33 second race by 1.7 seconds, almost exactly the gap between 1st and 2nd the last three times this race has been contested at the national championships. Just an FYI but Thomas' time would have won last year's meet by .2 of a second but would have lost in 2019 by nearly 2 whole seconds.
Also worth noting that the Olympic sliver medalist was 19 years old when she won that medal and is 4 years younger than Thomas, she will be the gold medal favorite in Paris.
Also no one is attempting to silence anyone, what a rough ridin' ridiculous notion in America. Real people aren't talking about this outside of twitter and message boards. Just a rough ridin' clownish and cartoonish thing to say, but I guess I can't be surprised by this from people who search under every rock to find something to feel victimized by.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 18, 2022, 06:22:42 PM
The years of muscle development while testosterone is pumping through his body.Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.
Women's champion.
Nah. No advantage. GTFO.
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What's. The rough ridin'. Advantage.
How many more posts will you have before you actually address that?
How can you be so dense about this? It's simple rough ridin' biology.
Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
Okay, so this supposed advantage is a theoretical one and not one that you actually know of factually. Cool, I'm glad we're on the same page.
I've been careful not to call anyone a bigot here but your intentional misgendering of Lia is a whole lot of walking and talking like a duck, so let's just call a spade a spade here. It's pretty clear that, for you, this isn't about women's athletics but about transgender people. You can drop the facade, the agenda is pretty clear.
Post by: IPA4Me on March 18, 2022, 09:49:49 PM
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Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 11:07:17 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 11:08:24 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 11:23:34 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 19, 2022, 11:43:27 AM
Sorry for forcing wacks into this discussionWhen backed into a corner, I fight back. Mich's response triggered tf out of me. Comparing me to rough ridin' clay travis, because I don't huff all far left fart talking points.Spracs, I do appreciate your once moderate position, to quickly falling for all things left these days, because dax. It was an odd transformation, but you did it!Why does it have to be the Olympics to set the bar? A lot of NCAA D1 athletes bust their asses for such a chance. Why do you want the story to go away?
Here we can see the posting of a guy who's clearly "over it."
You don't even know my personal position on this (which has admittedly changed over the course of time). I was merely pointing out you resurrected this thread with the comment that you were "over it now" and then proceeded to demonstrate that you were not, in fact, over it.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 11:49:51 AM
Post by: kim carnes on March 19, 2022, 11:56:09 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 12:04:51 PM
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1504645467413655567?s=21
Post by: Institutional Control on March 19, 2022, 12:10:55 PM
I kind of wonder how Adam Carolla and Jimmy Kimmel worked together. They’re complete opposites.I work with and have friends who are completely opposite of me, it’s not too difficult to do.
Kimmel is a liberal and Carolla is a libertarian. It’s not as if Carollla swings from Trump’s nuts.
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 19, 2022, 12:11:23 PM
When you’re so sold out that you’re arguing for guys competing against women in a sport that is wholly reliant on physical capability.
Sad
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 12:27:18 PM
Was she a national title contender as a male? If not, then uhhhh… I think we have our answer to the op’s question.Wouldn’t just about all female title contenders NOT be national title contenders if they swam in male competitions? I’m struggling to follow the logic here.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 12:31:52 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 19, 2022, 12:36:17 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 12:40:09 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 12:41:15 PM
It’s fascinating watching the alleged progressives in this blog at work.They’ll agree with any nonsensical talking point, just to own the ‘pubs. :frown:
When you’re so sold out that you’re arguing for guys competing against women in a sport that is wholly reliant on physical capability.
Sad
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 12:51:38 PM
MIR, myself, and others have asked several times for some kind of qualification of the physical advantage Lia Thomas has.It’s fascinating watching the alleged progressives in this blog at work.They’ll agree with any nonsensical talking point, just to own the ‘pubs. :frown:
When you’re so sold out that you’re arguing for guys competing against women in a sport that is wholly reliant on physical capability.
Sad
Is it hormone levels? I haven’t seen anyone here calling for regulation of that in college sports.
Is it her body size or muscle mass? I haven’t seen anyone calling for divisions in womens’ swimming.
I certainly haven’t seen anyone suggesting that they would have a problem with a carbon copy of Lia competing if she were born a female.
This has never been a debate about physical advantages. It’s a judgment that you should be limited to compete based on how you were born.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 19, 2022, 12:54:57 PM
You’re flailing so hard here it’s both humorous and pathetic.MIR, myself, and others have asked several times for some kind of qualification of the physical advantage Lia Thomas has.It’s fascinating watching the alleged progressives in this blog at work.They’ll agree with any nonsensical talking point, just to own the ‘pubs. :frown:
When you’re so sold out that you’re arguing for guys competing against women in a sport that is wholly reliant on physical capability.
Sad
Is it hormone levels? I haven’t seen anyone here calling for regulation of that in college sports.
Is it her body size or muscle mass? I haven’t seen anyone calling for divisions in womens’ swimming.
I certainly haven’t seen anyone suggesting that they would have a problem with a carbon copy of Lia competing if she were born a female.
This has never been a debate about physical advantages. It’s a judgment that you should be limited to compete based on how you were born.
Post by: nicname on March 19, 2022, 01:02:46 PM
Post by: steve dave on March 19, 2022, 01:19:26 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 19, 2022, 01:23:29 PM
MIR, myself, and others have asked several times for some kind of qualification of the physical advantage Lia Thomas has.It’s fascinating watching the alleged progressives in this blog at work.They’ll agree with any nonsensical talking point, just to own the ‘pubs. :frown:
When you’re so sold out that you’re arguing for guys competing against women in a sport that is wholly reliant on physical capability.
Sad
Is it hormone levels? I haven’t seen anyone here calling for regulation of that in college sports.
Is it her body size or muscle mass? I haven’t seen anyone calling for divisions in womens’ swimming.
I certainly haven’t seen anyone suggesting that they would have a problem with a carbon copy of Lia competing if she were born a female.
This has never been a debate about physical advantages. It’s a judgment that you should be limited to compete based on how you were born.
Which is why the "why do you hate women?" talking point is absurd. As evidence, which we can see in this very thread, opponents of the proposition either (a) intentionally misgender/refuse to acknowledge her as a woman, or (b) attack her personally and maliciously, rather than debating what rule changes could be made to promote "fairness."
This is a very nuanced issue full of snares and pitfalls, once you start breaking down the arguments and legal issues involved. Most of the time, the arguments of Wackster-daxter Nation break down under analysis UNLESS you accept the bolded premise above, which is usually implied but not stated. At the end of the day, it's a snap judgment/gut feeling that people have. It's not difficult to imagine how prejudices could seep in.
Post by: michigancat on March 19, 2022, 01:30:23 PM
This is a tricky thing for me. I can see both sides but I don't have a good solution (if one is needed) either.
Only one side is trying to exclude a marginalized group from part of society. That seems like it could be a good tiebreaker?
Post by: kim carnes on March 19, 2022, 01:33:35 PM
Was she a national title contender as a male? If not, then uhhhh… I think we have our answer to the op’s question.Wouldn’t just about all female title contenders NOT be national title contenders if they swam in male competitions? I’m struggling to follow the logic here.
Uhhh… what?
Post by: steve dave on March 19, 2022, 01:47:27 PM
This is a tricky thing for me. I can see both sides but I don't have a good solution (if one is needed) either.
Only one side is trying to exclude a marginalized group from part of society. That seems like it could be a good tiebreaker?
yeah, I'm definitely not wanting to exclude her
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 01:49:35 PM
Yeah I mean same. If you want to clarify your point I think that would help a lot.Was she a national title contender as a male? If not, then uhhhh… I think we have our answer to the op’s question.Wouldn’t just about all female title contenders NOT be national title contenders if they swam in male competitions? I’m struggling to follow the logic here.
Uhhh… what?
Post by: kim carnes on March 19, 2022, 01:53:03 PM
This is a tricky thing for me. I can see both sides but I don't have a good solution (if one is needed) either.
Only one side is trying to exclude a marginalized group from part of society. That seems like it could be a good tiebreaker?
As a moderate, I’m willing to let the far left have this one.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 01:54:37 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 19, 2022, 01:57:56 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 02:02:37 PM
Post by: kim carnes on March 19, 2022, 02:06:34 PM
Yeah I mean same. If you want to clarify your point I think that would help a lot.Was she a national title contender as a male? If not, then uhhhh… I think we have our answer to the op’s question.Wouldn’t just about all female title contenders NOT be national title contenders if they swam in male competitions? I’m struggling to follow the logic here.
Uhhh… what?
She was an average college swimmer as a male, she transitions, she wins the national title. Do I need to make a flowchart? Did she suddenly become a great swimmer or could there be another reason? Apparently you think all non-transgendered females are awful swimmers?
None of this matters, I don’t think Lia or other people are transitioning with the intent of dominating female sports or at least I hope not.
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 02:11:56 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 02:25:40 PM
Post by: steve dave on March 19, 2022, 02:28:54 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 02:35:57 PM
Post by: bucket on March 19, 2022, 03:21:44 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 03:29:26 PM
Post by: nicname on March 19, 2022, 03:41:30 PM
This isn't complicated. One side doesn't want people banned from competition for simply being trans. The other side, or the NCAA, needs to come up with a rule that doesn't ban people for simply being trans. One solution might be testosterone regulations similar to what the Olympic Committee institutes.
One interesting aspect is that the NCAA and USA Swimming are not in agreement over trans women competing. I was talking to a buddy last night who swam competitively at KU about it, and he said USA Swimming won’t let trans women compete unless testosterone is “women’s level” and won’t count records they set.
He said it’s a huge deal in the swimming community. Most in the swimming community are against trans women competing with biological females.
Funnily enough the convo came up because he was telling us about how a couple of weeks ago he reached out to a former co-worker to offer him a job as a programmer at his current company (a children’s hospital in KC). When the programmer showed up to the peanut in joco, my buddy was surprised to see that he was now a she (pre-op) and had changed her name to Briana. My buddy obviously still offered her the job, but Briana is too good of a programmer and he couldn’t meet her salary demands.
Brianna has had a rough last couple of years. She was a married father of two until her wife died of Covid about a year and a half ago.
The world is utterly bizarre.
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 04:01:33 PM
This isn't complicated. One side doesn't want people banned from competition for simply being trans. The other side, or the NCAA, needs to come up with a rule that doesn't ban people for simply being trans. One solution might be testosterone regulations similar to what the Olympic Committee institutes.
One interesting aspect is that the NCAA and USA Swimming are not in agreement over trans women competing. I was talking to a buddy last night who swam competitively at KU about it, and he said USA Swimming won’t let trans women compete unless testosterone is “women’s level” and won’t count records they set.
He said it’s a huge deal in the swimming community. Most in the swimming community are against trans women competing with biological females.
I don’t think requiring a certain testosterone level is at odds with the idea of letting trans women compete, unless you’re saying the community is against trans women competing regardless of any measurable advantage.
It seems to me the most likely reason NCAA wouldn’t have a similar policy is because they have a lot more student athletes to deal with and testing them all would be difficult.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 04:09:30 PM
Post by: Trim on March 19, 2022, 04:42:01 PM
He said it’s a huge deal in the swimming community.
That makes two communities this is a huge deal in.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 04:44:37 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 19, 2022, 04:49:48 PM
I do love how super lib’s move goal posts and say there’s nothing to see here, since the liberal media won’t cover a viable story.
Pretty sure I'm done discussing this with you, since you've shown you have no interest in having an actual conversation.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 05:02:39 PM
Do I have a solution? No. Maybe they shouldn’t be able to compete tho after transition. Just spit balling here.
Post by: sys on March 19, 2022, 05:17:05 PM
the only point i have to offer that i think might possibly be of any value is that it probably isn't by chance that this debate has landed on swimming, where it would seem to the casual observer (me) that m/f differences in muscle mass and the such that are more temporary in nature when hormones are imposed or withdrawn are relatively less important than more permanent features such as hand/foot size and limb length.
Post by: steve dave on March 19, 2022, 05:43:32 PM
at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have. on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect. on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.
yes, same
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 05:56:02 PM
Men and women (at least at the Olympic level) swim the same events and distances. Anyone can easily just compare the times side by side.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 06:01:48 PM
I never expected the far left to turn their backs on science to try and make a point, but here we are!@sys Yup!
Post by: MakeItRain on March 19, 2022, 08:15:22 PM
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 08:23:45 PM
5th in the 200I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend. Pump those numbers if he’s competing vs men or anyone else. He never made finals as a male.
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 19, 2022, 08:40:48 PM
I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.
What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 08:46:47 PM
I’m legit calling you out for the same crap you call everyone else out on. Fake crap. If your daughter trained her whole life to win a natty and lost to a trans person 2 years in transition, you wouldn’t be singing this toon.I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.
What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.
Post by: Spracne on March 19, 2022, 09:08:13 PM
I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.
What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.
Stop cornering him! He's likely to lash out like an animaniac if you keep singing that "toon."
Post by: MakeItRain on March 19, 2022, 09:14:24 PM
at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have. on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect. on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.
yes, same
I'm not going to speak for anyone other than myself but the nuance of this situation is very important and my issue is that the two posters I'm arguing with in this thread and pretty much everyone discussing it on social media, of course, don't want to have a nuanced conversation about this issue.
I don't think anyone is ignorant to the physiological differences between men and women, especially those in their early to mid 20s, this age group may have the most striking differences. However, in the very specific case of Lia Thomas we have no idea what her physiological differences are and how they are manifested in swimming. Sure, it feels like something is unfair, but I want to know what is unfair. All of the things we know, other than she was born a male, either indicates she doesn't have an advantage or that advantage is undefined.
We know there are other successful women swimmers with the same body type as Lia. So if her body is something that other women can and do have, how is that some unfair, unachievable advantage?
We have no idea what her hormone levels are, how long she's been on estrogen, whether or not she's continuing to take estrogen during the season, and what effect hormone levels have on swimming and swimmers in general. Her times in the 500 are about 15-18 seconds slower competing as a woman than she did as a man, so it stands to reason that the estrogen has had some effect..
If the difference is purely physiological, I'm going to need to know why that difference only manifests itself in one distance for Thomas.
Why aren't we discussing things like lung capacity or natural levels of oxygen in the blood? We know that Thomas' supposed advantage isn't speed, she's worse at the shorter distances.
I think there is a conversation to be had here discussing these things and more. I'd love to have a discussion about trans men and women in distance running. Elite men and women distance runners have similar body types so why are the times so disparate?
Anyway, these discussions aren't going to happen here because wacky is just interested in trolling and discussing posters. IPA has nothing other than it's not fair and making some weird point by calling Lia a man, and dax is dax.
I think it was Chi Cat who said it but this thread clearly isn't about trans athletes, it's about trans people.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 09:15:06 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 09:28:33 PM
I appreciate this well played out response, but it’s just non sense. It’s a long written version of “they matter” which they do, but not like this. Just take the L. If you’re daughters were competitive and competing vs this, you’d hate it!at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have. on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect. on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.
yes, same
I'm not going to speak for anyone other than myself but the nuance of this situation is very important and my issue is that the two posters I'm arguing with in this thread and pretty much everyone discussing it on social media, of course, don't want to have a nuanced conversation about this issue.
I don't think anyone is ignorant to the physiological differences between men and women, especially those in their early to mid 20s, this age group may have the most striking differences. However, in the very specific case of Lia Thomas we have no idea what her physiological differences are and how they are manifested in swimming. Sure, it feels like something is unfair, but I want to know what is unfair. All of the things we know, other than she was born a male, either indicates she doesn't have an advantage or that advantage is undefined.
We know there are other successful women swimmers with the same body type as Lia. So if her body is something that other women can and do have, how is that some unfair, unachievable advantage?
We have no idea what her hormone levels are, how long she's been on estrogen, whether or not she's continuing to take estrogen during the season, and what effect hormone levels have on swimming and swimmers in general. Her times in the 500 are about 15-18 seconds slower competing as a woman than she did as a man, so it stands to reason that the estrogen has had some effect..
If the difference is purely physiological, I'm going to need to know why that difference only manifests itself in one distance for Thomas.
Why aren't we discussing things like lung capacity or natural levels of oxygen in the blood? We know that Thomas' supposed advantage isn't speed, she's worse at the shorter distances.
I think there is a conversation to be had here discussing these things and more. I'd love to have a discussion about trans men and women in distance running. Elite men and women distance runners have similar body types so why are the times so disparate?
Anyway, these discussions aren't going to happen here because wacky is just interested in trolling and discussing posters. IPA has nothing other than it's not fair and making some weird point by calling Lia a man, and dax is dax.
I think it was Chi Cat who said it but this thread clearly isn't about trans athletes, it's about trans people.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 19, 2022, 09:30:21 PM
I’m legit calling you out for the same crap you call everyone else out on. Fake crap. If your daughter trained her whole life to win a natty and lost to a trans person 2 years in transition, you wouldn’t be singing this toon.I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.
What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.
Tune.
Thank you wacky, for speaking for me and knowing me well enough to know exactly how I feel. If you knew me as well as you seem to you'd know I value what kind of humans my kids are and how they make other humans feel over some "natty."
Anyway, now that we're done discussing me, until you bring me up again, let's hear from the mother of one of the swimmers Lia competed against at the national championships
Quote
Ahead of the race, Taylor Ruck’s mother, Sophia Ruck, expressed support for Thomas, and said that she sees her competing as a “positive way for [Taylor] to be the best that she can be.”
She said she holds respect for Thomas and all the swimmers competing here this week, and has tried to empathize with Thomas’ personal and athletic journey, and the opposition she’s faced along the way.
“I have a son – Taylor has a brother – and if he were going through the same thing, I would hope that people could be supportive and cheer and love,” said Ruck, who’s originally from Canada but now lives in Phoenix.
She said that at some point, the NCAA does need to provide clearer guidance on eligibility, but that this week, what matters is treating Thomas with respect.
“In my heart, the biggest thing is empathy and love, and so at the end of the day, that’s all we have is our legacy and how we treated people. And what do people remember you for? It’s that – it’s not the accolades and awards. So, whatever that takes as a swimming community to create that environment, I think we need to explore it and with respect for all swimmers.”
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 09:42:09 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 19, 2022, 09:48:34 PM
What else do you expect her to say in this day of age? She could be canceled tomorrow for looking the wrong way.This is your response to someone saying it’s important to treat all people with respect and love?
You think the libs are just out here CANCELLING everyone who doesn’t follow the teachings of Christ?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 09:54:32 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 09:57:53 PM
They’re trying to cancel science after they rooted for it for 3 years. rough ridin' yes I do!What else do you expect her to say in this day of age? She could be canceled tomorrow for looking the wrong way.This is your response to someone saying it’s important to treat all people with respect and love?
You think the libs are just out here CANCELLING everyone who doesn’t follow the teachings of Christ?
Post by: Katpappy on March 19, 2022, 10:34:52 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 19, 2022, 10:47:50 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 20, 2022, 01:41:17 AM
If your point is that women on average swim slower than men in competitions then I agree. What I’m still struggling with is why that is proof of anything in this conversation. Pluck the female born swimmer who was runner up to Lia in an event or the swimmer who Lia was runner up to and I’m guessing if thrust into male swim meets they would also be middling male swim competitors.
They would be somewhere around last place.
Post by: Katpappy on March 20, 2022, 02:11:22 AM
He bolted a few years ago for Chareslton, SC because he was abusive towards my father and gave me crap when I walked in on him making out with a dude when I was 12 years old. We never spoke of it until he got wasted a month before my kid was born and he brought it up again, just to be a dick about it. Don’t use the term mommy, dude. It’s derogatory and makes you look like an ass hat. Male athletes should never be in female sports tho and he’d agree with that. He got pick pocketed by a female at the gulf war & if he would have outed her, she would have told the soldiers he was gay. eff off!
Hurts, doesn't it.
Post by: michigancat on March 20, 2022, 07:11:04 AM
at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have. on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect. on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.
What is the "(extreme) liberal position" in your mind?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 20, 2022, 08:49:11 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 20, 2022, 09:29:24 PM
He bolted a few years ago for Chareslton, SC because he was abusive towards my father and gave me crap when I walked in on him making out with a dude when I was 12 years old. We never spoke of it until he got wasted a month before my kid was born and he brought it up again, just to be a dick about it. Don’t use the term mommy, dude. It’s derogatory and makes you look like an ass hat. Male athletes should never be in female sports tho and he’d agree with that. He got pick pocketed by a female at the gulf war & if he would have outed her, she would have told the soldiers he was gay. eff off!
Hurts, doesn't it.
Yeah, telling someone not to use the word mommy while intentionally misgendering someone else to try to make the point is a special kind of something.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 20, 2022, 09:32:53 PM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 20, 2022, 10:09:26 PM
5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 20, 2022, 10:10:56 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 21, 2022, 04:38:56 AM
She didn't qualify in the longest race because she wasn't fast enough5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote
Thomas drew national attention mid-season at the Zippy Invite when she swam 15:59.71 in the 1650 free, winning the race by more than 37 seconds. While she was well ahead of that field, nationally her time didn’t rank as well – she is just 11th in the country this season, 17 seconds behind Tennessee’s Kristen Stege, who is the top-ranked miler in the NCAA.
https://swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-opts-for-100-free-over-1650-free-for-ncaa-championships/
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 21, 2022, 07:30:38 AM
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Post by: michigancat on March 21, 2022, 07:46:10 AM
Got it, so no biological differences/advantages.LOL
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Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 21, 2022, 08:18:22 AM
Post by: 'taterblast on March 21, 2022, 08:24:10 AM
do i think it's fair for person born as male to compete in women's sports after transition?? no. but a lot of people who share my opinion are being so disgusting about it that i don't really have a desire to discuss it publicly (i'm not referring to anyone in this thread, i haven't even read the full thing). this is not nearly a big enough issue on the grand scale of things to warrant so much attention, to me it is clearly driven by "ew trans people" and that just makes it feel wrong. if i thought people were actually going to use this for the sole purpose of a competitive advantage in sports i might change my tune, but that isn't reality.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 21, 2022, 08:39:37 AM
i'm probably just echoing thoughts already shared in this thread, but this has been in the news a lot so obviously been thinking about it.Most of it has been civil discussion in here and not the mention section comments you're seeing on twitter about it. It hasn't stopped people with differing opinions however to try and act like those individuals are being MAGA about it tho. Same cast and characters per usual.
do i think it's fair for person born as male to compete in women's sports after transition?? no. but a lot of people who share my opinion are being so disgusting about it that i don't really have a desire to discuss it publicly (i'm not referring to anyone in this thread, i haven't even read the full thing). this is not nearly a big enough issue on the grand scale of things to warrant so much attention, to me it is clearly driven by "ew trans people" and that just makes it feel wrong. if i thought people were actually going to use this for the sole purpose of a competitive advantage in sports i might change my tune, but that isn't reality.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 21, 2022, 09:42:25 AM
i'm probably just echoing thoughts already shared in this thread, but this has been in the news a lot so obviously been thinking about it.
do i think it's fair for person born as male to compete in women's sports after transition?? no. but a lot of people who share my opinion are being so disgusting about it that i don't really have a desire to discuss it publicly (i'm not referring to anyone in this thread, i haven't even read the full thing). this is not nearly a big enough issue on the grand scale of things to warrant so much attention, to me it is clearly driven by "ew trans people" and that just makes it feel wrong. if i thought people were actually going to use this for the sole purpose of a competitive advantage in sports i might change my tune, but that isn't reality.
yes, regardless of one's opinion on the matter...as i think MIR has pointed out pretty succinctly this is something that applies to like 1/1000 of 1% of NCAA swimmers and yet that has been more than enough for several folks on here to show their entire ass about how much they are gigantic pieces of poop, taking the opportunity to be extra cruel towards an individual who is probably already having a crap enough time as it is, but because some random girl they've never heard of didn't end up qualifying for some event then its fair game to dog pile.
As has been stated, its a nuanced issue, and one where there is plenty of room for nuanced discussion and debate to be had. I think there might be some folks on here that legitimately take umbrage with with rule, and rather than shitting all over Lia they should be debating the rule. But the fact is, there is a rule in place, and she is playing by the rule, and even though the Clay Travii of the world might want you to think "oh boy here we go! women's swimming as you know it is over, from now on its just going to be all the dudes that couldn't hack in in men's swimming are going to put on a wig and a dress..."
The rest of it is just a lot of people using a lot of words to say "i have a problem with trans people" without using those exact words and its really quite astounding. To wit: wacky has been over this whole thing for a while now yet somehow just can't help making sure everybody knows how he would like to stand up and be counted.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 21, 2022, 09:58:33 AM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 21, 2022, 10:03:08 AM
Post by: DQ12 on March 21, 2022, 11:14:20 AM
Post by: 'taterblast on March 21, 2022, 11:17:06 AM
that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
yeah the "see she only finished 8th in this other race" talking point doesn't really resonate with me.
Post by: michigancat on March 21, 2022, 11:25:40 AM
that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
I was directly replying to the assumption in the post below. I don't know that anyone has made the case that she absolutely has no biological advantages or if that's just the strawman people are fighting?
5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
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Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 21, 2022, 11:29:17 AM
Assumption that biologically mens hearts and lungs are bigger?that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
I was directly replying to the assumption in the post below. I don't know that anyone has made the case that she absolutely has no biological advantages or if that's just the strawman people are fighting?5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
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Post by: DQ12 on March 21, 2022, 11:38:54 AM
Fair enough...Quite a bit of noise in this thread so a little hard to keep track.that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
I was directly replying to the assumption in the post below. I don't know that anyone has made the case that she absolutely has no biological advantages or if that's just the strawman people are fighting?
Post by: catastrophe on March 21, 2022, 11:39:20 AM
I also think you have to grant that some small number of biological females naturally develop such that they have a biological advantage over like 95% of other female swimmers in ways similar to the advantage an average male would have over the same females.
So the question, to me, is (1) whether we care about regulating ALL the athletes with this type of “unfair” biological advantage (which has to be quantified somehow), or (2) whether we ONLY accept those few biological females who won the gene pool lottery and not the extremely small number of biological males who transitioned to women.
The first option is obviously very difficult to do, but I’m personally uncomfortable with the second option because it boils down—not to taking exception with a purely biological advantage—but to saying that whether the biological advantage is acceptable depends purely on whether your sex at birth matches your gender.
I might me more comfortable with that type of judgment if athletic competitions were getting flooded with transitioning males, but we all know that’s not the case. Just like we know there isn’t some cohort breeding superhuman female swimmers to dominate the event.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 21, 2022, 11:52:50 AM
Assumption that biologically mens hearts and lungs are bigger?that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
I was directly replying to the assumption in the post below. I don't know that anyone has made the case that she absolutely has no biological advantages or if that's just the strawman people are fighting?5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In most cases, not always.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 21, 2022, 12:02:48 PM
Which the same could be said for trans athletes having an advantage. Probably best if it’s just left at thatAssumption that biologically mens hearts and lungs are bigger?that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
I was directly replying to the assumption in the post below. I don't know that anyone has made the case that she absolutely has no biological advantages or if that's just the strawman people are fighting?5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In most cases, not always.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MakeItRain on March 21, 2022, 12:08:00 PM
Which the same could be said for trans athletes having an advantage. Probably best if it’s just left at thatAssumption that biologically mens hearts and lungs are bigger?that she isn't winning every race doesn't prove that she doesn't have an (arguably unfair) advantage -- although i'm not close to well-versed enough in the biology or her situation to articulate whether she (in particular) has one, or what that advantage would be other than "men tend to be better athletes than women."
I was directly replying to the assumption in the post below. I don't know that anyone has made the case that she absolutely has no biological advantages or if that's just the strawman people are fighting?5th in the 200
8th in the 100
Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.
Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In most cases, not always.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you seen someone arguing otherwise?
Post by: MakeItRain on March 21, 2022, 12:14:36 PM
The science is out there if you want to do your own research, @michigancat. She's 6'6"!
6'2"
Speaking of doing research. When people put that number up that she was 432nd when she was competing as a man, I am pretty certain that isn't true. What I do know to be factually true is that she, while having started hormone therapy, was the fastest swimmer in the Ivy League at 3 different distances, while she was competing with the men's team, before COVID wiped out the end of the season. She posted her fastest ever time in the 500 in November of 2019, while receiving hormone therapy.
Post by: Kid In the Hall on March 21, 2022, 01:23:39 PM
Let her compete and figure out the fairest way to administer a new set of rules (regulate hormone levels, must be XXX amount of time since transition, etc.). We want to make it more complicated than it is, but it's actually pretty simple.
And, for anyone saying it's "not fair" - I presume you'll also be demanding that any swimmers who used those LZR suits in the late 00s/early 10s turn in their medals/victories/have their records overturned because they had a massive competitive advantage over all swimmers who didn't have access to those suits (which have since been banned).
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 21, 2022, 04:16:22 PM
Thanks for proving my point, BAC. Just a bunch of ppl in here trying to accuse ppl of being transphobic, because they have issue of a former D1 male swimmer competing vs females now and winning natty's. You nailed it!Ya know wackster it occurs to me that there's a degree of irony in me calling you out and holding you to account for your terrible takes. The truth is, not that long ago maybe 5-10 years...I was a lot like you and shared many of the same beliefs you hold today. And the way i evolved my thinking was not because some lib bashed me over the head repeatedly, it was through allowing myself to become exposed to ideas that were different than my own and actually giving those ideas some oxygen and evaluating those ideas on their merits instead of just saying meh libs gon lib and dismissing it. In fact I'm pretty sure if i did have some lib beating me over the head with their ideas then i would have dug in my heels and been a million times more resistant to it.
fwiw wacky, although i don't really know you all that well and have only interacted with you outside of this blogsite a handful of times, i do think that at your core you are a good person with a good heart and that you sincerely want what is best, not only for yourself and your family, but for the world in general. I also think that your worldview is - understandably - insular in nature, and has some major blind spots. And I don't say that to be insulting...when i look back at how i used to view the world I realize i held that view because I had the, for lack of better term, privilege? luxury? of not being exposed to other walks of life and for that reason i just sort of accepted the world around me as the way things are without ever seeking out alternative viewpoints.
Anyway i don't really know what point i was trying to make in those last 2 paragraphs other than to say wacky i hope that someday you will have a similar arc as i did. By no means do I think I have this world and this life figured out, and by no means do i consider myself the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong b/c lawd knows i'm wrong about crap on a pretty much daily basis...but what i guess i can say is that these days I probably feel like I am on the "right side of history" as much as i did 10 years ago, but with a lot less cognitive dissonance to get there.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 21, 2022, 04:22:22 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on March 21, 2022, 06:01:25 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 09:21:59 AM
If any of you rubes had ever actually had to sit through an Ivy League swimming meet, I can guarantee that you would have begged for a distraction like Thomas to break up the monotony of a 20-minute long 1,650 free race.
Let her compete and figure out the fairest way to administer a new set of rules (regulate hormone levels, must be XXX amount of time since transition, etc.). We want to make it more complicated than it is, but it's actually pretty simple.
And, for anyone saying it's "not fair" - I presume you'll also be demanding that any swimmers who used those LZR suits in the late 00s/early 10s turn in their medals/victories/have their records overturned because they had a massive competitive advantage over all swimmers who didn't have access to those suits (which have since been banned).
That example doesn't really work, since the suits were, in fact, banned.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 09:30:51 AM
Post by: Kid In the Hall on March 22, 2022, 10:40:58 AM
Why ban anything, though?
It's a long story, but the short version is that those suits were so aerodynamic that they essentially made borderline good swimmers into elite swimmers who started breaking all sorts of records (and the existing elite swimmers started posting times that were far beyond what anyone thought would ever be possible). It was an enormous competitive advantage because not all swimmers had access to those suits. So, after a few years, they were banned. But, any records that were set by people wearing those suits remain to this day (as do any victories/medals for people who were wearing those suits while competing against people who weren't wearing those suits).
It's not a perfect comparison to the Thomas situation, but it's in the same ballpark.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 10:45:15 AM
Post by: catastrophe on March 22, 2022, 11:36:41 AM
Yeah, but I mean, why ban anything? Make it one big free for all.I like this question. I think there are probably two main reasons, although maybe not thought of in these terms.
First, there are those who want a sport to be as competitive as possible. Kind of like how boxing, wrestling, and MMA have really narrow weight divisions (all of which also happen to have very strict equipment requirements). The idea is for the contestants to stay relatively tightly grouped which makes for more excitement in competition. The more allowance in how people are allowed to compete, the greater likelihood that a clear top tier will separate itself from others.
Second, you have people who only want to see a very particular competition with as few variables as possible. In that case the focus isn’t so much on how competitive the events are but purely on crowning the best at a specific event within a specific class.
Post by: 'taterblast on March 22, 2022, 11:38:29 AM
https://twitter.com/EvanDonovan/status/1506295784043696131
Post by: steve dave on March 22, 2022, 11:40:30 AM
Post by: catastrophe on March 22, 2022, 11:44:00 AM
Although maybe there’s also an element of the “steroids in baseball” congressional hearing situation, which to this day I still have no idea why that happened.
Post by: 'taterblast on March 22, 2022, 11:49:43 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on March 22, 2022, 11:54:51 AM
Post by: Kid In the Hall on March 22, 2022, 12:11:14 PM
Yeah, but I mean, why ban anything? Make it one big free for all.I like this question. I think there are probably two main reasons, although maybe not thought of in these terms.
First, there are those who want a sport to be as competitive as possible. Kind of like how boxing, wrestling, and MMA have really narrow weight divisions (all of which also happen to have very strict equipment requirements). The idea is for the contestants to stay relatively tightly grouped which makes for more excitement in competition. The more allowance in how people are allowed to compete, the greater likelihood that a clear top tier will separate itself from others.
Second, you have people who only want to see a very particular competition with as few variables as possible. In that case the focus isn’t so much on how competitive the events are but purely on crowning the best at a specific event within a specific class.
In my view, in the case of this swimming example, it was more of the second option that Catastrophe laid out. If you think about swimming, there are some variables (lane assignment, etc.), but from an "equipment" standpoint, there traditionally weren't any. People wore caps/goggles/suits, but they were all pretty much the same. That's contrasted to something like golf where there's a big variability in equipment. Anyway - these suits freaked out the governing body because they made such a big difference. I think they feared an "arms race" (for lack of a better term) that would mean the "best" swimmer may or may not consistently win - not because of their ability, but because of the suit they were wearing.
More backstory on the "why" of the ban here:
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/one-decade-later-do-we-miss-the-full-body-competition-suit/
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 01:15:34 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 22, 2022, 01:40:20 PM
Well, it just seems like the body going through male puberty is likely a bigger variable than a swimsuit will ever be.The thing about those against Lia competing is that they almost always phrase it in terms of the first justification (i.e., it’s bad for competition), but in reality it’s really more of the second (i.e., when we watch women’s sports we only want to see who the best biological females are).
The first justification really doesn’t make sense here for two reasons. First, the number of transgender competitors is extremely low, and so far even those who excel at the sport (Lia in this case) still face pretty tough competition at the highest levels. Second, the people making the argument don’t seem to have any desire to try to quantify whatever biological advantage there is, nor to regulate it in anyone other than transgender athletes.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 01:56:47 PM
Well, it just seems like the body going through male puberty is likely a bigger variable than a swimsuit will ever be.The thing about those against Lia competing is that they almost always phrase it in terms of the first justification (i.e., it’s bad for competition), but in reality it’s really more of the second (i.e., when we watch women’s sports we only want to see who the best biological females are).
The first justification really doesn’t make sense here for two reasons. First, the number of transgender competitors is extremely low, and so far even those who excel at the sport (Lia in this case) still face pretty tough competition at the highest levels. Second, the people making the argument don’t seem to have any desire to try to quantify whatever biological advantage there is, nor to regulate it in anyone other than transgender athletes.
I don't see how the number of competitors even matters. If anything, the small number makes the advantages more glaring. People have trouble quantifying the advantages because there isn't a lot of data to demonstrate the effects of hormone treatment on performance. And yeah, most people are reasonable enough to not want to force hormone treatment on women who are naturally above whatever "fair" testosterone limit that gets set for trans athletes. Most people want drugs out of sports. Making them a requirement to meet sports regulations is the opposite of that.
Post by: catastrophe on March 22, 2022, 02:07:38 PM
If the objection is “well I just don’t want that person to be able to set records as a woman” then again I think it goes to being concerned more about determining the best biological female vs keeping the sport competitive.
On that point I think it’s fair to note that even though people may grumble every 4 years about it, the records set in those now banned suits are still on the books (although I believe even many of those have since been broken).
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 02:14:14 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 22, 2022, 02:20:50 PM
Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?It’s really hard for me to picture the context of that, but I have to imagine the rules don’t allow it. I’m not ok with the breaking rules of the competition. For context, I don’t have an issue with the women who play college football since the rules clearly permit it.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 22, 2022, 02:25:27 PM
Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?It’s really hard for me to picture the context of that, but I have to imagine the rules don’t allow it. I’m not ok with the breaking rules of the competition. For context, I don’t have an issue with the women who play college football since the rules clearly permit it.
So if the rules did not allow transgendered athletes to compete, then you would agree they shouldn't compete?
Post by: catastrophe on March 22, 2022, 02:37:16 PM
Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?It’s really hard for me to picture the context of that, but I have to imagine the rules don’t allow it. I’m not ok with the breaking rules of the competition. For context, I don’t have an issue with the women who play college football since the rules clearly permit it.
So if the rules did not allow transgendered athletes to compete, then you would agree they shouldn't compete?
Yes (assuming the rule is not unlawfully discriminatory).
I mean it’s always a separate question of whether the rules should be changed. The thing is I don’t have a dog at all in this fight. As long as it operates within the law, the NCAA is free to determine how it organizes its competitions in my opinion. Whether they deserve public criticism for such decisions is a different question.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 09:20:37 AM
Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?
What a dog crap question.
Post by: michigancat on March 23, 2022, 09:25:35 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on March 23, 2022, 09:29:47 AM
Post by: chum1 on March 23, 2022, 09:35:51 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 09:40:57 AM
my daughter has been swimming competitively for like 7 years. I asked her about Lia Thomas and she had no idea who she was but I learned she actually had a trans swimmer on her club in California. I asked what she thought about it and she was like "why would I even think about that." :dunno:Weird, I talked to my 2 and a half year old son about it, who's been swimming in pools since day 1 and he spit out his coffee & tossed his cigarette after hearing about it. Pretty wild what different households can do to our children.
Post by: ChiComCat on March 23, 2022, 09:42:46 AM
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/22/utah-governor-veto-transgender-sports-ban-00019417
Post by: 'taterblast on March 23, 2022, 09:49:04 AM
Quote
“I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion,”
:spiderman twin meme thing:
Post by: catastrophe on March 23, 2022, 10:27:55 AM
Maybe it was already posted in here, I haven't fully kept up with the speed of this thread, but the Utah Gov vetoed their bill. I appreciated his statement on it, which the article below has excerpts of.And to add on my statement earlier, I think it’s total crap when lawmakers try to regulate these things like the bathroom bill and now a proposed ban on sports.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/22/utah-governor-veto-transgender-sports-ban-00019417
The law should be able to give context to what is considered equal opportunity and discrimination, but trying to take away organizations’ ability to otherwise organize their competitions seems really dumb to me and recently has been attempted in the most hateful ways.
Post by: DQ12 on March 23, 2022, 10:42:49 AM
Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist. but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.
Post by: chum1 on March 23, 2022, 10:52:06 AM
Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist. but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.
I think almost all participants know they'll never win. In swimming, for example, they've done enough of it that they have a really good idea of what their personal time results will be as well as what the winning times will be.
I'd assume it's more normal for sports participants in general to compete against their own personal bests than against the top competition.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 10:53:22 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 23, 2022, 10:53:32 AM
Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist. but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.
full disclosure i was not an NCAA athlete but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone on the <pick a sport> team knows they're never going to come in first but they will be good enough to keep their spot on the team and keep their scholarship and i'd guess when it comes to the non-revenue sports those athletes go pro in something other than sports like basically 100% of the time
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 23, 2022, 10:55:26 AM
and you know what else? maybe sometimes the real championship trophy is the friendships we made along the wayIs there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist. but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.
full disclosure i was not an NCAA athlete but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone on the <pick a sport> team knows they're never going to come in first but they will be good enough to keep their spot on the team and keep their scholarship and i'd guess when it comes to the non-revenue sports those athletes go pro in something other than sports like basically 100% of the time
Post by: DQ12 on March 23, 2022, 11:12:27 AM
i think that's all true. but if someone finishes ahead of you in [sport] and they're doing something (arguably) unfair, i think "you weren't gonna win/place anyway" rings kind of hollow. stated differently, i think the girl finishing in fifth place could still feel cheated if she found out the girl who won the race was using steroids or whatever.and you know what else? maybe sometimes the real championship trophy is the friendships we made along the wayIs there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist. but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.
full disclosure i was not an NCAA athlete but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone on the <pick a sport> team knows they're never going to come in first but they will be good enough to keep their spot on the team and keep their scholarship and i'd guess when it comes to the non-revenue sports those athletes go pro in something other than sports like basically 100% of the time
all that to say, i think there are better arguments supporting Lia Thomas than "winning/placing really isn't the point of college swimming"
Post by: chum1 on March 23, 2022, 11:26:37 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 23, 2022, 11:26:41 AM
Yeah that's a decent approachQuote“I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion,”
:spiderman twin meme thing:
Post by: catastrophe on March 23, 2022, 11:28:12 AM
all that to say, i think there are better arguments supporting Lia Thomas than "winning/placing really isn't the point of college swimming"
Agree with that, but I definitely think it’s a fair counterpoint vs. the people acting like the world is being ruined for their future hypothetical daughters who maybe might swim and could potentially be good at it.
Post by: Kid In the Hall on March 23, 2022, 12:03:59 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 01:38:12 PM
So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.
He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 23, 2022, 01:45:01 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 23, 2022, 01:47:18 PM
Post by: 'taterblast on March 23, 2022, 01:50:22 PM
So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.
He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.
i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.
Post by: 'taterblast on March 23, 2022, 01:53:13 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 01:53:24 PM
Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't, but at the NCAA championships - for any given individual event (except for perhaps the 50 free), there are probably no more than 5 athletes with a realistic chance to win that particular event. And, generally, there may be as many as 50-60 people competing in each individual event. Every single one of those people outside the top 5 is well aware that they have basically zero chance to win.
Yes, this is the same in track. The most maddening part of this conversation, if you want to call it that, is the refusal to acknowledge a difference between a sport in which you're competing against a clock and let's say a combat sport.
In wacky's world of, if it were your daughter you'd be pissed, I'm very sure that if my daughter complained about running or swimming against a transgirl, I would tell her to swim faster. Lia Thomas isn't the fastest woman's swimmer that's even competing today. Her time doesn't have a damn thing to do with anyone else's training or capacity for speed.
If Emma Wyant swam the same time in 2021 you know what place she would have gotten? 2nd. She swims the same time in 2019 her place would have been 3rd.
You want to win, rough ridin' swim faster. People keep insisting that Thomas had an advantage but not a single damn person can articulate what that advantage is.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 01:55:50 PM
So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.
He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.
i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.
I wasn't making a point, I was answering the question as to why Henig made the choice to continue to compete with women, he can't take testosterone. I'm aware that cis women can beat cis men in sports. I'm not the one making the "it's not fair" arguments.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 01:57:03 PM
this topic has made its way to Missouri political ads. plastering Lia's face on their to gain votes. it's rough ridin' disgusting.
It's bigotry and anyone not rebuking this behavior are also guilty of bigotry.
Post by: 'taterblast on March 23, 2022, 02:08:44 PM
So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.
He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.
i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.
I wasn't making a point, I was answering the question as to why Henig made the choice to continue to compete with women, he can't take testosterone. I'm aware that cis women can beat cis men in sports. I'm not the one making the "it's not fair" arguments.
i just think it's as simple as if a person goes through puberty as a male they will be perceived as having an advantage over cis females forever regardless of any factors of their transition. i'm not even in the galaxy of being an expert on this topic but i don't think that perception, even if it's not reality, is ever going to go away. and i also don't think it's absurd to say there *can be* advantages to being born male. i tend to think through these things in extreme examples - one in my head is males that grow to be 7 feet tall and then transition to being female. in general this person likely wouldn't have grown to 7 feet tall if they were born female. so if this person is a basketball player and they transition, they're a 7 foot tall female playing basketball.
i realize that's a far-fetched hypothetical example. and i will reiterate i am not sure what the answer is. it's either ban trans females from competition altogether or fully allow them. i think i lean toward letting them compete with the acceptance that there will probably be occurrences of advantages resulting from being born male.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 02:11:15 PM
:rolleyes:Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't, but at the NCAA championships - for any given individual event (except for perhaps the 50 free), there are probably no more than 5 athletes with a realistic chance to win that particular event. And, generally, there may be as many as 50-60 people competing in each individual event. Every single one of those people outside the top 5 is well aware that they have basically zero chance to win.
Yes, this is the same in track. The most maddening part of this conversation, if you want to call it that, is the refusal to acknowledge a difference between a sport in which you're competing against a clock and let's say a combat sport.
In wacky's world of, if it were your daughter you'd be pissed, I'm very sure that if my daughter complained about running or swimming against a transgirl, I would tell her to swim faster. Lia Thomas isn't the fastest woman's swimmer that's even competing today. Her time doesn't have a damn thing to do with anyone else's training or capacity for speed.
If Emma Wyant swam the same time in 2021 you know what place she would have gotten? 2nd. She swims the same time in 2019 her place would have been 3rd.
You want to win, rough ridin' swim faster. People keep insisting that Thomas had an advantage but not a single damn person can articulate what that advantage is.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 02:20:30 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 02:21:37 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 02:28:19 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 23, 2022, 02:38:14 PM
So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.
He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.
i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.
I wasn't making a point, I was answering the question as to why Henig made the choice to continue to compete with women, he can't take testosterone. I'm aware that cis women can beat cis men in sports. I'm not the one making the "it's not fair" arguments.
i just think it's as simple as if a person goes through puberty as a male they will be perceived as having an advantage over cis females forever regardless of any factors of their transition. i'm not even in the galaxy of being an expert on this topic but i don't think that perception, even if it's not reality, is ever going to go away. and i also don't think it's absurd to say there *can be* advantages to being born male. i tend to think through these things in extreme examples - one in my head is males that grow to be 7 feet tall and then transition to being female. in general this person likely wouldn't have grown to 7 feet tall if they were born female. so if this person is a basketball player and they transition, they're a 7 foot tall female playing basketball.
i realize that's a far-fetched hypothetical example. and i will reiterate i am not sure what the answer is. it's either ban trans females from competition altogether or fully allow them. i think i lean toward letting them compete with the acceptance that there will probably be occurrences of advantages resulting from being born male.
This is fallacious reasoning.
Post by: Spracne on March 23, 2022, 02:40:01 PM
I guarantee if you polled most of America vs wokeMAW, most of the population would feel similar to how I feel on it. crap ton of bigots out there, apparently. But not MIR and remember folks, using the term cracker all the time doesn’t make you racist in his world either. Good crap!
Correct, which is the most frustrating part of this.
Post by: Spracne on March 23, 2022, 02:40:40 PM
my daughter has been swimming competitively for like 7 years. I asked her about Lia Thomas and she had no idea who she was but I learned she actually had a trans swimmer on her club in California. I asked what she thought about it and she was like "why would I even think about that." :dunno:Weird, I talked to my 2 and a half year old son about it, who's been swimming in pools since day 1 and he spit out his coffee & tossed his cigarette after hearing about it. Pretty wild what different households can do to our children.
I literally lol'd at this, because I was having a similar thought.
Post by: michigancat on March 23, 2022, 02:43:53 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 02:45:41 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on March 23, 2022, 02:56:43 PM
So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.
He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.
Ah, OK. That makes a ton more sense.
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 23, 2022, 03:47:59 PM
- Sex and Gender are distinct concepts. Sex is assigned at birth based on genitalia. Gender is a societal construct of expected physical, psychological, and emotional traits.
- Gender identity is just that, the gender construct that a person identifies with.
- A transgender person is someone who's sex at birth doesn't match with their expression of gender or gender identity
- Denial of gender identity(and other 'identities' like race) causes harm in terms of self-esteem and mental health(stress/anxiety/depression/death by suicide)
- Not allowing trans athletes to compete with others of their gender is denial of gender identity and causes harm.
- All humans have varying levels of physical ability. Regardless of how you personally define 'gender', this is obviously true even within genders. Giannis Antetokounpmo is a male and a 7 foot freak of nature. I am a male and I am not a 7 foot freak of nature. It's totally palatable to me that some males have greater physical ability than I do for certain tasks.
- The fact that someone else who belongs to the same gender as you has greater physical ability doesn't give you the right to deny their gender identity and cause them harm. James Harden can't send Giannis to the WNBA because Giannis is taller and better at Basketball than he is...that's clearly ridiculous.
Putting it all together, the argument goes like this:
Trans women are women. Not allowing women to compete in women's sports denies their gender identity which leads to mental health issues and harm. Consideration for perceived physical disparity of other competitors in an amateur competition like college swimming doesn't justify denial of an entire class of people's gender identity because physical disparity is a feature of all athletic competitions and nobody is entitled to a goddamn medal in the first place. The idea that we need to legislate against trans athletes or else there will be so many people who would willingly subject themselves to the onslaught of hate/violence that trans folks are subjected to in order to just gain an advantage in an amateur swim race is so laughable it can't be taken seriously.
tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).
I'm sure I said things wrong, though I tried to be diligent. If someone is able to state this better than me or can point to a reference that does, please jump in.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 23, 2022, 03:54:28 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 23, 2022, 04:09:51 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?How funny would it be if conservatives ended up insisting on transitioning occurring pre-pubert for the sake of preserving the integrity of sports.
I don’t think you’re wrong, but I also think that the problem you identify would improve drastically if we were more accepting of transgender people.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 23, 2022, 04:41:04 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 10:25:10 PM
Saying you don’t think it’s fair that a former D1 Male swimmer is now competing against women after transition makes you a bigot, dumbasses! Wake up and grow up!!!
(https://c.tenor.com/tYlgNBmdeL0AAAAC/woah.gif)
Who the eff said that, I didn't.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 10:29:11 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?
Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 10:32:47 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 10:40:03 PM
You just kept going on after making “wacky” an example as it’s “not that fair group” and followed up that comment about bigotry in the next post. It’s whatever tho. I don’t think you think I’m IRL POS, we just differ on the subject. I’ve also made some very rude comebacks to make my case, so it’s whatever. I swear I mean well, it’s just the competitive nature of obsessed sports Wackycat lashing out. Sorry.
Wacky, you are in the "it's not fair" group, it's the cornerstone of your and others argument, that doesn't make you a bigot, just misguided. You definitely were behaving like a bigot when you first posted about this back early in the winter, when you intentionally misgendered Lia, but you've stopped doing that.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 10:44:22 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 23, 2022, 10:45:34 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?
Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.
I actually just listened today to an episode of Science vs. discussing transgender myths. Apparently the science indicates that if you go through puberty as a male, you retain a somewhat permanent advantage in muscle development. Not that the advantage is that massive. I guess there was recently a transgender olympic weightlifter who failed to medal vs cis females.
Just as interestingly, the episode talked about how advantages in endurance sports mostly disappear because hemoglobin levels are pretty hormone dependent. They used the example of a distance runner who as a male was about in the top 80% (I think) of male runners, and then after transitioning ended up right around the top 80% of female runners.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 10:45:47 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 23, 2022, 10:47:05 PM
:cheers::thumbs: :cheers:
Post by: MakeItRain on March 23, 2022, 10:52:53 PM
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?
Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.
I actually just listened today to an episode of Science vs. discussing transgender myths. Apparently the science indicates that if you go through puberty as a male, you retain a somewhat permanent advantage in muscle development. Not that the advantage is that massive. I guess there was recently a transgender olympic weightlifter who failed to medal.
Just as interestingly, the episode talked about how advantages in endurance sports mostly disappear because hemoglobin levels are pretty hormone dependent. They used the example of a distance runner who as a male was about in the top 80% (I think) of male runners, and then after transitioning ended up right around the top 80% of female runners.
Not only did she not medal but she didn't even get the first qualifying weight up and finished dead ass last. Makes you wonder how in the hell she qualified for the Olympics.
The second thingi alluded to is why I'm certain that Lia won't qualify for the Olympic team. Her times have gotten progressively worse since she started estrogen and there's no reason to believe she's going to stem the tide especially considering she's not going to have the luxury of free coaching and a college strength and conditioning program.
Post by: catastrophe on March 23, 2022, 10:58:25 PM
Post by: nicname on March 24, 2022, 01:08:13 AM
:dunno:
Post by: 'taterblast on March 24, 2022, 07:54:55 AM
tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).
people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 24, 2022, 08:42:59 AM
I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?
Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.
I'm not sure. That's just how it's been explained to me. I don't think there is a ton of data out there on the effects of transitioning on physical performance. It would be interesting to see if Lia's times regress back to where she would be about the same level of competitiveness with women as she was with men, but I kind of doubt she is still swimming that long. The fact that her times are still getting slower would indicate, to me at least, that she is still advantaged from having used to be a man.
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 09:05:45 AM
Right, and the counter is that we've been getting it wrong this whole time. which has contributed to the high rate of suicide rate in trans people. That 40-50% of trans people attempt suicide is orders of magnitude more important to me than consideration of physical parity in sporting competitions.
tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).
people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).
True parity in sports never existed anyway. Phenotypical differences have always been present. Tall people have advantages in basketball but we don't need to ban them. allowing trans people to compete with others of their gender is just expanding the phenotypical diversity to better match our understanding of humanity.
if phenotypical parity is of utmost importance, we should be consistent with that stance: there should be separate basketball competitions at all age groups for every possible combination of height and other important physical attribute (wingspan, ability to palm a basketball). I'll be so proud when my friend goes pro in the version of the NBA for 5'11" males with T-Rex arms who can't palm a basketball or dunk.
Also, phenotype isn't the only source of unfairness. Rich kids have advantages over poor kids in all sports but especially in sports like tennis, motor racing, hockey, and equestrian. What we know from epigenetics is that socioeconomic issues impact phenotype, so economic disparities are physical disparities. Are the people outraged about trans athletes also outraged over economic disparities(which in the US are also racial disparities) and are they working to ensure a level playing field in all sports by addressing those issues? If all kids had equal access to food, housing, healthcare, and education we would have more fair athletic competitions, right?
why does fairness only suddenly matter when it comes to banning trans kids? And why is the perceived physical unfairness of an amateur swim race more important than the unfairness of a society that leads half of trans people to attempt suicide? This is also coming on the heels of banning trans people from bathrooms
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Post by: 'taterblast on March 24, 2022, 09:16:51 AM
doesn't your logic of "advantages exist all over the place" lead us down a path of getting rid of separating mens and womens leagues altogether?
there has to be something that defines who gets to compete in mens leagues and who gets to compete in womens leagues. i still think it gets down to the fact that we separate men and women and the general understanding has always been that it's about biological sex at birth. maybe it hasn't been explicitly stated in rule books (maybe it has?), but you're asking everyone to change that understanding. which just isn't going to work for a lot of people, and it's something i still struggle with understanding. people should be able to live their truth without judgment or hate from anyone! but on the topic of sports competitions, gender identity is different than biological sex at birth.
Post by: 'taterblast on March 24, 2022, 09:19:34 AM
Post by: catastrophe on March 24, 2022, 09:44:30 AM
also i'm sorry i kind of ignored you saying "kids" in your post. it feels like a different conversation for kids leagues but i don't have time to type out my thoughts on that. i'm over my skis for a pit thread already.The same podcast I referenced earlier also pointed out that you don’t really see any clear physical advantage between males and females until like 12 years old or something. Could be younger than that, but I think then it just comes down to whether a particular kid hits puberty early or not. The politics around kids sports is pure bigotry.
At the same time, I think young trans kids aren’t even interested in being the best among men, women, or overall. They want to participate with who they see as their peers. I think the same is true for adults to at least some extent.
Post by: catastrophe on March 24, 2022, 09:49:56 AM
there has to be something that defines who gets to compete in mens leagues and who gets to compete in womens leagues. i still think it gets down to the fact that we separate men and women and the general understanding has always been that it's about biological sex at birth.
Although a nice simple system, the problem with this thinking is no one has advocated for biological females to continue competing with females after transitioning. It’s like the bathroom bill thing all over again. You’re seriously telling me you’re MORE comfortable sharing the women’s bathroom with a person who presents entirely as a man? (Rhetorical point not directed at you.)
Post by: Trim on March 24, 2022, 10:07:44 AM
Here are the elements of the argument for why the effort to ban trans athletes is anti-trans or trans-phobic as I understand things as a straight cis white man:
- Sex and Gender are distinct concepts. Sex is assigned at birth based on genitalia. Gender is a societal construct of expected physical, psychological, and emotional traits.
- Gender identity is just that, the gender construct that a person identifies with.
- A transgender person is someone who's sex at birth doesn't match with their expression of gender or gender identity
- Denial of gender identity(and other 'identities' like race)
tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).
people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).
i still think it gets down to the fact that we separate men and women and the general understanding has always been that it's about biological sex at birth. maybe it hasn't been explicitly stated in rule books (maybe it has?), but you're asking everyone to change that understanding. which just isn't going to work for a lot of people, and it's something i still struggle with understanding.
Yes, sports concerns aside, I'm still looking for something to read dumbed down enough for me to understand the now-distinct concept of gender and why it's not that people of either birth-biological-sex can have wide ranges of physical/psychological/emotional traits regardless of if they're biological males or females.
Everything I've read is just "sex is this, while gender is this" and leaves it at that.
Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 10:10:36 AM
doesn't your logic of "advantages exist all over the place" lead us down a path of getting rid of separating mens and womens leagues altogether?
Possibly, though I don't think so. I need to think about that more.
Violence against women is very common and might be made worse by un-gendering sports, but that would pretty much be my only concern.
Women already don't make anywhere near as much money from sports as men...WNBA is like the only league that pays an upper middle class salary and women athletes could still earn from endorsements. so I don't think un-gendering would make a huge difference economically for women.
I think the two possible paths my thinking can go down are:
- un-gender sports
- keep sports gendered but allow trans people to compete with others of their gender
The second option is my preference because of the violence against women thing
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Post by: DQ12 on March 24, 2022, 10:15:45 AM
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 10:32:06 AM
Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?
We live in a society.
How I came to accept that trans women are women and trans men are men is that I have talked with/worked with/competed against/roomed with trans people and they told me so.
I know that's not the most satisfying answer, but we treat what people tell us with earnestness in other circumstances. if someone of sound mind that I trust and respect tells me that they believe in God, I believe them even though I have no way to verify the truthfulness of their claim and am not able to understand it myself.
There's also supporting evidence, though not a direct proof, that affirms what trans people are telling us. For instance, there have been studies into what the intervenable factors are when it comes to suicide risk in transgender people. They found that there is a large reduction in suicidal ideation associated with each of the following:
- completing medical transition through hormones and/or surgery
- experiencing lower self-reported transphobia
- increased social/parental support.
In other words, listening to what they are telling us and treating trans women as women and trans men as men makes fewer trans people die by suicide. To me, this all makes for very compelling evidence that gender (a societal construct as you point out) is distinct from sex/genetalia
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Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 10:33:00 AM
sorry what's violence against women have anything to do with anything?With un-gendering sports, as one person suggested
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Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 10:50:34 AM
Do people care about the lack of fairness for her? She was born with a vagina but had her hopes and dreams stolen from her and is banned from competing against other women. How can we make competition fair for Castor? Is that as important to you all as making competition 'fair' for Lia's competitors?
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Post by: 'taterblast on March 24, 2022, 11:03:04 AM
Post by: Trim on March 24, 2022, 11:15:58 AM
Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?
We live in a society.
How I came to accept that trans women are women and trans men are men is that I have talked with/worked with/competed against/roomed with trans people and they told me so.
I know that's not the most satisfying answer, but we treat what people tell us with earnestness in other circumstances. if someone of sound mind that I trust and respect tells me that they believe in God, I believe them even though I have no way to verify the truthfulness of their claim and am not able to understand it myself.
There's also supporting evidence, though not a direct proof, that affirms what trans people are telling us. For instance, there have been studies into what the intervenable factors are when it comes to suicide risk in transgender people. They found that there is a large reduction in suicidal ideation associated with each of the following:
- completing medical transition through hormones and/or surgery
- experiencing lower self-reported transphobia
- increased social/parental support.
In other words, listening to what they are telling us and treating trans women as women and trans men as men makes fewer trans people die by suicide. To me, this all makes for very compelling evidence that gender (a societal construct as you point out) is distinct from sex/genetalia
Guess I already bbs'd about most of this, still without reconciling my thoughts, in another thread and yes I'm sure it'd help for me to hear from a first-person perspective.
https://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=37625.625
I definitely disagree though that we do or should always treat what people tell us with earnestness in other circumstances. I don't think someone can declare themselves to be of another race from your example, or more on point, some other physical characteristic that defines itself (we talked about right-handedness or height in the other thread). The religion example you give doesn't help either, as I do believe that others believe in god, which is irrelevant to ever determining the fact of whether there is god or not.
To an extreme end, there are crazy (?) people downtown where I live that earnestly believe all sorts of crap, and we correctly don't go along with it and ideally arrest them when they commit crimes and get them into treatment. That's not at all the gender scenario, but it shows that we don't just go along with what people believe. And in trials, when the trier of fact makes a decision, their decision comes with a finding that a witness who may have earnestly believed what they were saying was wrong.
The societal construct thing was quoted from you, and it ties in to the suicide stats you gave. Would there be a need or want to be a gender different from one's sex if society had been more accepting that people from either sex can have a wide range of so-called gender traits?
Post by: LickNeckey on March 24, 2022, 11:22:36 AM
tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).
people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).
this is actually historically false
India/Hinduism has had a dedicated social construct "Hijra" (or third gender that had its own Caste) for hundreds (really more probably thousands of years)
in the 19th century the British didn't like this and sought to eradicate them and made identification as Hijra illegal
this false narrative and persecution is not new
hermaphroditic populations are thought to be 1.7% of the world population
Post by: chum1 on March 24, 2022, 11:24:09 AM
Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?
That definitely depends on the amount of overlap between the societal convention of gender and tendencies based on biological sex. My armchair observation is that there is enough overlap between the two that we'd always have some gender switching no matter how less rigid we are with our societal conventions.
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 11:25:34 AM
Would there be a need or want to be a gender different from one's sex if society had been more accepting that people from either sex can have a wide range of so-called gender traits?
I'm not sure I understand the question. it feels like you're asking if we would need to adjust our idea of gender if the social construct of gender didn't exist?
Post by: 'taterblast on March 24, 2022, 11:26:12 AM
tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).
people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).
this is actually historically false
India/Hinduism has had a dedicated social construct "Hijra" (or third gender that had its own Caste) for hundreds (really more probably thousands of years)
in the 19th century the British didn't like this and sought to eradicate them and made identification as Hijra illegal
this false narrative and persecution is not new
hermaphroditic populations are thought to be 1.7% of the world population
sorry i wasn't clear - by "history" i was referring to sports in america. so a very recent and specific history.
(on that note i listened to a podcast recently with Alok Vaid-Menon who explained there is a wide history of multiple genders. it was a fascinating listen.)
Post by: LickNeckey on March 24, 2022, 11:28:11 AM
we live in a culture that has long ignored these realities and persecuted those who have
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 11:39:34 AM
Proposal Part 1 - Trans kids(<18) are allowed to compete according to their gender identity until they are adults. trans girls play on the girls team. trans boys play on the boys team.
Proposal Part 2 - Professional sports and international competitions(i.e. Olympics) are no longer gender-segregated but are allowed to be instead separated by specific physical characteristics that impact performance. for example, you could require that athletes have testosterone within defined limits or you could create a professional 6-foot-and-under basketball league. You can use any physical trait you want to separate athletes so long as (a) you can prove that the physical trait actually leads to a performance advantage(i.e. having a penis doesn't disqualify you unless the physical presence of a penis demonstrably makes you run faster or be a better free-throw shooter or something) and (b) you can't market the competition as being gendered(for example, you could have a Low T MMA division and a high T MMA division. if we want, we could even make an 'unnaturally high T' MMA division if we want to watch roided out freaks smack each other around). this obviously wouldn't be feasible for kids sports because of cost and puberty so it's limited to adults in professional and international competition
Post by: Trim on March 24, 2022, 11:48:19 AM
Transgender people are not mentally ill unlike many of the unfortunate souls downtown and again, there is supporting evidence that shows negative impact on mental health when their gender identity is denied rather than affirmed, which supports their claim that their gender is what they say it is.Would there be a need or want to be a gender different from one's sex if society had been more accepting that people from either sex can have a wide range of so-called gender traits?
I'm not sure I understand the question. it feels like you're asking if we would need to adjust our idea of gender if the social construct of gender didn't exist?
That bold part is circular logic.
I don't yet fully accept the whole gender-societal construct thing. My point is that if accepted, then it would be logical to think that society's historical thoughts on how a person from either sex should act/appear/emote/etc. is what has made some people who don't fit into those expectations wonder/think/earnestly believe they are a distinct gender from their sex as opposed to still being their birth sex while being themselves within it.
You cherry-picked my example of crazy people (omitting where I said that's not at all the gender scenario) and ignored the other examples of people "earnestly believing" things that are physically inaccurate, and in turn brushed past that we as a society correctly do not always accept what any person earnestly believes.
I'm sure I'll find the material that would reconcile this all for me at some point.
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 11:55:38 AM
I don't yet fully accept the whole gender-societal construct thing. My point is that if accepted, then it would be logical to think that society's historical thoughts on how a person from either sex should act/appear/emote/etc. is what has made some people who don't fit into those expectations wonder/think/earnestly believe they are a distinct gender from their sex as opposed to still being their birth sex while being themselves within it.
I think so, yes. Society in the USA has very strict definitions of "Men have expectations A/B/C. Women have expectations X/Y/Z". Gender doesn't have a physical definition, though, so if a person thinks "I fit expectations X/Y/Z more than A/B/C" then it's natural for them to identify as a woman regardless of what body parts they have. If society suddenly changed definitions to "It's ok for everyone to meet any combination of expectations A/B/C/X/Y/Z" then the concept of gender vanishes.
Post by: Trim on March 24, 2022, 12:03:06 PM
I don't yet fully accept the whole gender-societal construct thing. My point is that if accepted, then it would be logical to think that society's historical thoughts on how a person from either sex should act/appear/emote/etc. is what has made some people who don't fit into those expectations wonder/think/earnestly believe they are a distinct gender from their sex as opposed to still being their birth sex while being themselves within it.
I think so, yes. Society in the USA has very strict definitions of "Men have expectations A/B/C. Women have expectations X/Y/Z". Gender doesn't have a physical definition, though, so if a person thinks "I fit expectations X/Y/Z more than A/B/C" then it's natural for them to identify as a woman regardless of what body parts they have. If society suddenly changed definitions to "It's ok for everyone to meet any combination of expectations A/B/C/X/Y/Z" then the concept of gender vanishes.
:thumbs:
I think society doing that would be good.
Post by: FuzzyWuzzy on March 24, 2022, 12:08:28 PM
If society suddenly changed definitions to "It's ok for everyone to meet any combination of expectations A/B/C/X/Y/Z" then the concept of gender vanishes.
:thumbs:
I think society doing that would be good.
:cheers:
Post by: star seed 7 on March 24, 2022, 12:11:17 PM
But of course I also realize these are just people trying to operate in and live within the current culture.
Like Trim, I wish things were different.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 24, 2022, 01:12:20 PM
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/QgfDrL9Rd3lV6/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b952870d5b07183dff5ee7c3ebf722e2038ff9e2ed6b&rid=giphy.webp&ct=g)
Post by: catastrophe on March 24, 2022, 01:23:05 PM
I don’t think it’s necessarily a worthy goal to try to deconstruct the male/female divide, although there are definitely a lot of things we have arbitrarily assigned to one gender or another that we could do away with.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 24, 2022, 01:29:07 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 24, 2022, 01:32:37 PM
I don't think people play sports at the collegiate level or above out of some desire to seek community. I would agree with that sentiment at the high school level and below, and with rec leagues.Agree with that, and to be clear I meant on a societal level rather than sports divisions.
I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 24, 2022, 01:49:03 PM
I don't think people play sports at the collegiate level or above out of some desire to seek community. I would agree with that sentiment at the high school level and below, and with rec leagues.Agree with that, and to be clear I meant on a societal level rather than sports divisions.
I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.
To me, it's the definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Post by: DQ12 on March 24, 2022, 01:55:14 PM
I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.i think that "moving away from men's/women's divisions" would functionally lead to a lot fewer women ever competing in athletics at a high level. i'm no expert on this stuff, but erasing divisions seems like it would be extremely counterproductive.
just as an example, the women's 2021 marathon gold/silver/bronze medalists would've placed 71st/72nd/73rd in the men's race. serena williams isn't winning wimbledon if she's competing against the world's best men's players.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 24, 2022, 02:18:40 PM
Post by: catastrophe on March 24, 2022, 02:21:12 PM
Well again, you would only do away with men/women if you created sub-categories based on height, weight, hormones, muscle tone, hemoglobin levels, who knows what else. Theoretically it would keep sports competitive and “fix” the advantages of transgender competitors while not being based on sex at birth (even though it would almost certainly end up largely divided between biological women and biological men). The thing is we are nowhere close to determining what criteria matter for different sports or how to measure it.I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.i think that "moving away from men's/women's divisions" would functionally lead to a lot fewer women ever competing in athletics at a high level. i'm no expert on this stuff, but erasing divisions seems like it would be extremely counterproductive.
just as an example, the women's 2021 marathon gold/silver/bronze medalists would've placed 71st/72nd/73rd in the men's race. serena williams isn't winning wimbledon if she's competing against the world's best men's players.
And as MIR said (or as I interpreted it), it would be an overly complex solution to something that really isn’t a problem right now. We’re only talking about a theoretical solution to a theoretical problem.
Post by: DQ12 on March 24, 2022, 02:23:17 PM
what is this, harrison bergeron? i think things are basically fine where they're at now, so long as we can figure out a reasonable way to accommodate fringe cases like lia thomas.Well again, you would only do away with men/women if you created sub-categories based on height, weight, hormones, muscle tone, who knows what else. Theoretically it would keep sports competitive and “fix” the advantages of transgender competitors while not being based on sex at birth. The thing is we are nowhere close to determining what criteria matter for different sports or how to measure it.I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.i think that "moving away from men's/women's divisions" would functionally lead to a lot fewer women ever competing in athletics at a high level. i'm no expert on this stuff, but erasing divisions seems like it would be extremely counterproductive.
just as an example, the women's 2021 marathon gold/silver/bronze medalists would've placed 71st/72nd/73rd in the men's race. serena williams isn't winning wimbledon if she's competing against the world's best men's players.
And as MIR said (or as I interpreted it), it would be an overly complex solution to something that really isn’t a problem right now. We’re only talking about a theoretical solution to a theoretical problem.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 24, 2022, 02:37:17 PM
https://twitter.com/SpencerJCox/status/1506377724314611712
Post by: catastrophe on March 25, 2022, 09:13:49 AM
I think my position at this point in time is that transgender athletes should be treated similar to how we treat other “freak athletes” (for lack of a better term, which btw is almost always used with a positive connotation). In other words, yeah some people purely by virtue of their genetics will be at a competitive advantage, and that’s ok because there aren’t all that many of them. Just because you were born with 7 foot DNA or male muscle DNA shouldn’t stop you from competing.
My position is based on two critical assumptions, which could definitely change on further information. The first is that transgender individuals have no real choice in their gender. They are men born in women’s bodies or vice versa. I think treating that as a biological/physiological issue is important. It’s possible there are many cases where a person’s body dysmorphia is the cause of a psychological issue that can be treated but I am just not aware of any evidence of that right now. And I still consider the prospect of someone transitioning to gain a competitive advantage completely ridiculous.
Second, I am assuming that transgender athletes in sports is and will be rare. If it turns out there are enough transgender competitors to fill a whole division then that might make more sense at the NCAA and Olympic level. Of course, I have always interpreted people pushing this “solution” at this point as essentially saying transgender athletes shouldn’t be able to compete at all given how few instances there are.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 26, 2022, 02:35:44 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on April 26, 2022, 03:32:24 PM
Post by: Spracne on April 26, 2022, 04:19:29 PM
https://twitter.com/JoelMBeall/status/1518961524135677953?s=20&t=s_Z7B68BrFjbsYXnLZljgw
What are you thoughts on the story, Wacky?
Post by: michigancat on April 26, 2022, 06:54:30 PM
Has Clay Travis weighed in?https://twitter.com/JoelMBeall/status/1518961524135677953?s=20&t=s_Z7B68BrFjbsYXnLZljgw
What are you thoughts on the story, Wacky?
But seriously what a sad story and a brave kid.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on April 26, 2022, 09:25:55 PM
Why would I have an issue with this one? I had genetic females play up in my baseball leagues growing up that could throw 9 K’s a game. This is shitty! I think he’s a badass that should be able to play. There’s zero enhancements here in competition with genetics.https://twitter.com/JoelMBeall/status/1518961524135677953?s=20&t=s_Z7B68BrFjbsYXnLZljgw
What are you thoughts on the story, Wacky?
Post by: MakeItRain on April 27, 2022, 11:08:12 PM
Why would I have an issue with this one? I had genetic females play up in my baseball leagues growing up that could throw 9 K’s a game. This is shitty! I think he’s a badass that should be able to play. There’s zero enhancements here in competition with genetics.https://twitter.com/JoelMBeall/status/1518961524135677953?s=20&t=s_Z7B68BrFjbsYXnLZljgw
What are you thoughts on the story, Wacky?
I got some news for you, bud.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 01:45:30 PM
My twitter account has been an absolute magnet for eggs, bots, and angry men with 10 or less followers.
Has Chappelle become unfunny and now is pandering to the LCD for clout? It's apparent that most of his loudest defenders now don't even watch him.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 23, 2022, 01:49:11 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on May 23, 2022, 01:52:19 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 23, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on May 23, 2022, 02:17:10 PM
Post by: catastrophe on May 23, 2022, 02:19:06 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 23, 2022, 02:19:45 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 23, 2022, 02:20:41 PM
Yeah that’s a bit of a red flag. Like was he just in the neighborhood or is he really having trouble getting a big venue to book him?He literally announced he was doing a show in KC and it was sold out in minutes. That's not what's happening at all.
Post by: michigancat on May 23, 2022, 02:22:49 PM
I heard the "trans joke" was that he was attacked with a gun that identified as a knife or something along those lines. Was there more to it?
Did he steal that joke from the Babylon Bee? Good grief
Post by: michigancat on May 23, 2022, 02:24:07 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on May 23, 2022, 02:24:42 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on May 23, 2022, 02:25:12 PM
Yeah that’s a bit of a red flag. Like was he just in the neighborhood or is he really having trouble getting a big venue to book him?
Dave lives in Ohio
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 23, 2022, 02:26:33 PM
Post by: michigancat on May 23, 2022, 02:34:37 PM
I do get how someone who doesn't want to hear trans jokes would be upset about getting a bonus Dave Chappelle show before the show they actually signed up to see. It wouldn't bother me, but I can see how some people would get pissed off about that.I saw Louis CK do a surprise set and I was pissed, both because he sucked and because he acted like it wasn't widely known that he jerked off in front of non-consenting women, he just went straight into his shitty material like he was right where he belonged.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on May 23, 2022, 02:40:14 PM
Post by: michigancat on May 23, 2022, 02:52:10 PM
Yeah, and these are huge performers. Just put the name on the bill when the ticket gets sold so people who don't want to see it don't have it thrown in their faces, and the tickets would even sell for more money, so everyone wins.To be fair I was at the Comedy Cellar where tickets are only like $20 and they warn you that lineups are subject to change and you may see someone you might not like. I didn't like ask for a refund but it put me in a bad mood.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on May 23, 2022, 03:01:27 PM
Post by: _33 on May 23, 2022, 03:44:13 PM
I do get how someone who doesn't want to hear trans jokes would be upset about getting a bonus Dave Chappelle show before the show they actually signed up to see. It wouldn't bother me, but I can see how some people would get pissed off about that.I saw Louis CK do a surprise set and I was pissed, both because he sucked and because he acted like it wasn't widely known that he jerked off in front of non-consenting women, he just went straight into his shitty material like he was right where he belonged.
Not really the same thing. One is a comedian telling jokes you think are in bad taste and the other sexually assaulted multiple women.
Post by: catastrophe on May 23, 2022, 04:02:33 PM
My personal opinion is that I don’t really believe any money I spend on artists or entertainers is an endorsement of their moral character, so in those situations I’d only be upset in the sense that I could have had a better time if someone funnier had opened.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 04:14:27 PM
Yeah, I heard about it. Thought it was hilarious they were trying to cancel Mulaney based off association.
"Trying to cancel," lol
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 04:23:44 PM
I do get how someone who doesn't want to hear trans jokes would be upset about getting a bonus Dave Chappelle show before the show they actually signed up to see. It wouldn't bother me, but I can see how some people would get pissed off about that.I saw Louis CK do a surprise set and I was pissed, both because he sucked and because he acted like it wasn't widely known that he jerked off in front of non-consenting women, he just went straight into his shitty material like he was right where he belonged.
Not really the same thing. One is a comedian telling jokes you think are in bad taste and the other sexually assaulted multiple women.
Not the same thing to you. There are plenty of people who thinks there's nothing wrong with what CK did, even more who think that he's more that think he's paid an excessive price and he should be able to get on with his life.
All of this stuff is subjective, it's what's infuriating about people telling trans folks that they shouldn't be offended as if trans people are the only ones who have a line that can be crossed.
It's pretty clear that Chappelle got his feelings hurt by the initial backlash and now he's dealing with being hurt by telling shitty jokes and getting love from the Rogan crowd. He's a long way from the social commentary that used to piss off the same people who are now encouraging him. Hope this doesn't turn into a full Whitlock.
Post by: star seed 7 on May 23, 2022, 04:39:17 PM
Post by: _33 on May 23, 2022, 06:25:32 PM
I do get how someone who doesn't want to hear trans jokes would be upset about getting a bonus Dave Chappelle show before the show they actually signed up to see. It wouldn't bother me, but I can see how some people would get pissed off about that.I saw Louis CK do a surprise set and I was pissed, both because he sucked and because he acted like it wasn't widely known that he jerked off in front of non-consenting women, he just went straight into his shitty material like he was right where he belonged.
Not really the same thing. One is a comedian telling jokes you think are in bad taste and the other sexually assaulted multiple women.
Not the same thing to you. There are plenty of people who thinks there's nothing wrong with what CK did, even more who think that he's more that think he's paid an excessive price and he should be able to get on with his life.
All of this stuff is subjective, it's what's infuriating about people telling trans folks that they shouldn't be offended as if trans people are the only ones who have a line that can be crossed.
It's pretty clear that Chappelle got his feelings hurt by the initial backlash and now he's dealing with being hurt by telling shitty jokes and getting love from the Rogan crowd. He's a long way from the social commentary that used to piss off the same people who are now encouraging him. Hope this doesn't turn into a full Whitlock.
You're just agruing to argue. Trans folks can absolutely be offended. But it's extremely, objectively not the same.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 08:23:41 PM
I do get how someone who doesn't want to hear trans jokes would be upset about getting a bonus Dave Chappelle show before the show they actually signed up to see. It wouldn't bother me, but I can see how some people would get pissed off about that.I saw Louis CK do a surprise set and I was pissed, both because he sucked and because he acted like it wasn't widely known that he jerked off in front of non-consenting women, he just went straight into his shitty material like he was right where he belonged.
Not really the same thing. One is a comedian telling jokes you think are in bad taste and the other sexually assaulted multiple women.
Not the same thing to you. There are plenty of people who thinks there's nothing wrong with what CK did, even more who think that he's more that think he's paid an excessive price and he should be able to get on with his life.
All of this stuff is subjective, it's what's infuriating about people telling trans folks that they shouldn't be offended as if trans people are the only ones who have a line that can be crossed.
It's pretty clear that Chappelle got his feelings hurt by the initial backlash and now he's dealing with being hurt by telling shitty jokes and getting love from the Rogan crowd. He's a long way from the social commentary that used to piss off the same people who are now encouraging him. Hope this doesn't turn into a full Whitlock.
You're just agruing to argue. Trans folks can absolutely be offended. But it's extremely, objectively not the same.
:dunno: Of course it's "objectively not the same," like no crap? Bigotry isn't sexual adult, duh. It's seems like you're trying to minimize one of those two things, by means of comparison. Did I misinterpret your point?
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 08:33:15 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/ur4gnb/oh_my_god_im_breastfeeding_my_daughter/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
https://twitter.com/miss_teabaggins/status/1526296409447743489
(https://c.tenor.com/uToQBjdQgXsAAAAd/sip-tea.gif)
Post by: _33 on May 23, 2022, 08:36:20 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 09:13:05 PM
Oh, I thought you said it was subjective.
The degrees of which there is perceived offense, yeah.
Did I misinterpret what you were saying by they're different? I read that as if you were saying that everyone should be offended by Louis CK jerking off in front of those women but Chappelle's repeated attacks on trans people isn't as bad, is that what you were saying?
Post by: catastrophe on May 23, 2022, 09:20:49 PM
Post by: _33 on May 23, 2022, 09:46:08 PM
Oh, I thought you said it was subjective.
I read that as if you were saying that everyone should be offended by Louis CK jerking off in front of those women but Chappelle's repeated attacks on trans people isn't as bad, is that what you were saying?
(https://y.yarn.co/6598ebcc-6e46-4c6a-87f2-3621bda9caa6_text.gif)
Post by: I_have_purplewood on May 23, 2022, 09:54:00 PM
Yes, I agree. I wish he would get over it and move on.
Yeah, c'mon Dave! As a comedian I would think you would take this trans thing more seriously! Get over it and move on to something else that us woke folk find funny!!
ppfffttt, lol!
Post by: dal9 on May 23, 2022, 10:09:58 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 23, 2022, 10:59:49 PM
Miss Teabaggins seems to be on a mission to find someone to hate.
Her twitter account reads like a woman whose man left her for a trans woman and she will never get over it. I think she hates trans women more than I hate bigots.
Post by: Spracne on May 24, 2022, 02:43:30 AM
Yes, I agree. I wish he would get over it and move on.
Yeah, c'mon Dave! As a comedian I would think you would take this trans thing more seriously! Get over it and move on to something else that us woke folk find funny!!
ppfffttt, lol!
I will still watch Chappelle and Louis, because I can compartmentalize the artist and the art, and I've long enjoyed their comedy. Having said that, Chappelle needs to find some fertile ground to plow, because whatever humor, if any, that existed w/ his trans schtick has been fully mined at this point, and he's turning into a Maher-style boomer.
Post by: Kid In the Hall on May 24, 2022, 08:58:36 AM
Semenya reflected on the 2009 world championships in Berlin, where she won the 800-meter title in dominant fashion as an 18-year-old newcomer at her first major international meet. But her performance and muscular physique led the sport’s governing body to insist the teenager undergo sex tests, causing a firestorm of controversy. Semenya said track officials from the governing body “probably” thought she had a penis.
“I told them, ‘It’s fine. I’m a female. I don’t care. If you want to see I’m a woman, I will show you my vagina. Alright?’”
Following her world title win, Semenya was forced by the international athletics federation to take medication that artificially lowered her naturally high testosterone if she wanted to compete against other female runners.
https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-health-sports-caster-semenya-medication-9ac09233a724c7e6373be2bcc45c34e1
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 24, 2022, 09:20:15 AM
Post by: catastrophe on May 24, 2022, 09:37:15 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 24, 2022, 10:43:50 AM
Post by: 'taterblast on May 24, 2022, 11:10:43 AM
:cheese:
Post by: MakeItRain on May 24, 2022, 02:42:34 PM
Yes, I agree. I wish he would get over it and move on.
Yeah, c'mon Dave! As a comedian I would think you would take this trans thing more seriously! Get over it and move on to something else that us woke folk find funny!!
ppfffttt, lol!
I will still watch Chappelle and Louis, because I can compartmentalize the artist and the art, and I've long enjoyed their comedy. Having said that, Chappelle needs to find some fertile ground to plow, because whatever humor, if any, that existed w/ his trans schtick has been fully mined at this point, and he's turning into a Maher-style boomer.
Yaaassssss queen
Post by: MakeItRain on May 24, 2022, 02:45:12 PM
https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1529090956498243587?s=20&t=iaHaLT3OhNq3ELopy5-DKQ
I will definitely watch. With anything else the "controversy" is in the eye of the beholder, and media outlets have a tendency to take some social media extremes and extrapolate those into something more
Post by: Spracne on May 24, 2022, 03:45:26 PM
Post by: cfbandyman on May 24, 2022, 03:53:25 PM
Yes, I agree. I wish he would get over it and move on.
Yeah, c'mon Dave! As a comedian I would think you would take this trans thing more seriously! Get over it and move on to something else that us woke folk find funny!!
ppfffttt, lol!
I will still watch Chappelle and Louis, because I can compartmentalize the artist and the art, and I've long enjoyed their comedy. Having said that, Chappelle needs to find some fertile ground to plow, because whatever humor, if any, that existed w/ his trans schtick has been fully mined at this point, and he's turning into a Maher-style boomer.
Yeah, for me it's more like he's double down on it all because it causes a stir, but end of the day it's just w/e, and I think your point of "fully mined" is the best way to put it. It's like Seinfeld's hatred of Bania because all he talks about is milk/Ovaltine. It's the same thing, and especially coming from a guy who's as prolific as Chappelle it's hard to see him lean into something that's just done played out.
Post by: _33 on May 24, 2022, 04:03:30 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on May 24, 2022, 04:36:51 PM
People are acting like he based his entire set around transgender people but as far as I can tell he made one joke about his attacker as having a "gun that identified as a knife". Doesn't seem like that's "all he talks about" on stage.
His last Netflix special was mostly transgender jokes.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 26, 2022, 08:19:08 AM
Post by: Spracne on May 26, 2022, 01:31:21 PM
That Ricky special was a huge nothing burger. Classic cancel culture.
I think the vast majority of people who like comedy are a-ok with comedians being offensive. It's just that Twitter amplifies dissenting voices, thanks to other media picking up the ball and running with it.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 26, 2022, 01:33:51 PM
Post by: nicname on May 26, 2022, 04:18:17 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 26, 2022, 05:01:14 PM
That Ricky special was a huge nothing burger. Classic cancel culture.
I think the vast majority of people who like comedy are a-ok with comedians being offensive. It's just that Twitter amplifies dissenting voices, thanks to other media picking up the ball and running with it.
Bingo. Then the outrage peddlers get to claim that someone is cancelled and the cycle continues.
Post by: Spracne on May 26, 2022, 06:05:17 PM
Post by: chum1 on May 26, 2022, 06:33:19 PM
Post by: nicname on May 26, 2022, 06:59:36 PM
I watched Eddie Murphy's Delirious a year or two ago. The first part is super cringey homophobic. People didn't really get that at the time. I'd say the same about Gervais on transgender people now. It's gonna look a lot worse down the road.
Lolwut? People absolutely got it. It’s also way more mean-spirited than Gervais or Chappelle for that matter.
Post by: michigancat on May 26, 2022, 07:01:07 PM
I watched Eddie Murphy's Delirious a year or two ago. The first part is super cringey homophobic. People didn't really get that at the time. I'd say the same about Gervais on transgender people now. It's gonna look a lot worse down the road.
Lolwut? People absolutely got it. It’s also way more mean-spirited than Gervais or Chappelle for that matter.
People got the jokes but didn't get how bad the homophobia would look thirty years down the road
Post by: nicname on May 26, 2022, 07:07:17 PM
Eddie Murphy - Delirious transcript
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 26, 2022, 07:45:02 PM
Post by: chum1 on May 26, 2022, 08:12:16 PM
I watched Eddie Murphy's Delirious a year or two ago. The first part is super cringey homophobic. People didn't really get that at the time. I'd say the same about Gervais on transgender people now. It's gonna look a lot worse down the road.
Lolwut? People absolutely got it.
Public disparagement of gay people and dismissiveness of their concerns was widely acceptable back then. Murphy was saying the sorts of things lots of people were, just in a funnier way.
Public disparagement of transgender people and dismissiveness of their concerns is widely acceptable now. Gervais is saying the sorts of things lots of people are, just in a funnier way.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 26, 2022, 08:31:03 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 27, 2022, 12:20:29 AM
I absolutely love how much the term “cancel culture” enrages @MIR every time. Easiest #blessed layup of all time.
It's absolutely the stupidest rough ridin' thing in our current discourse, just complete nonsense. Stop acting like you didn't mean it, you 100% believe in cancel culture.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 27, 2022, 09:01:38 AM
:lol: Holy crap! :lol:I absolutely love how much the term “cancel culture” enrages @MIR every time. Easiest #blessed layup of all time.
It's absolutely the stupidest rough ridin' thing in our current discourse, just complete nonsense. Stop acting like you didn't mean it, you 100% believe in cancel culture.
Post by: Spracne on May 27, 2022, 09:38:37 AM
I absolutely love how much the term “cancel culture” enrages @MIR every time. Easiest #blessed layup of all time.
It's absolutely the stupidest rough ridin' thing in our current discourse, just complete nonsense. Stop acting like you didn't mean it, you 100% believe in cancel culture.
This is his new thing. Say stupid crap, get called out, and then claim he was trolling.
Post by: michigancat on May 27, 2022, 09:43:53 AM
If anything, he offended Christian’s more in that skit than anything, but that’s part of equality comedy. Everyone gets a ribbing. I’d probably suggest comedy stand up probably isn’t for the people who are easily triggered by all things these days.
I go to standup shows almost weekly and rarely see anything offensive or "triggering" and I laugh constantly. There's so many great comics out there.
The majority of folks that like what Chappelle and Gervais are doing now like that they're attacking trans folks and Christians.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 27, 2022, 09:45:49 AM
Remember that time MIR posted about wanting to kill a bunch of white people that doesn't think the way he thinks? He hates the term cancel culture because people are trying to call out people he despises and he doesn't want them called out for doing it. It's that rough ridin' simple.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 27, 2022, 09:47:02 AM
I just like that they're calling a spade a spade. #CancelCultureIf anything, he offended Christian’s more in that skit than anything, but that’s part of equality comedy. Everyone gets a ribbing. I’d probably suggest comedy stand up probably isn’t for the people who are easily triggered by all things these days.
I go to standup shows almost weekly and rarely see anything offensive or "triggering" and I laugh constantly. There's so many great comics out there.
The majority of folks that like what Chappelle and Gervais are doing now like that they're attacking trans folks and Christians.
Post by: DQ12 on May 27, 2022, 09:48:17 AM
I just like that they're calling a spade a spade. #CancelCulture:nono:
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 27, 2022, 09:49:26 AM
Post by: michigancat on May 27, 2022, 09:52:32 AM
The daily capacity that takes up my brain about thinking about trans people is about .000000005% and I'm sure it's the same with these two. They saw some emotional dumbasses react off a few dumb jokes and took advantage of it. It's that simple.
that's why Chappelle's crap is so harmful. Now you think trans folks all the time because jokes about them "trigger" people, while you probably would have been more of an ally if Chappelle was still telling thoughtful smart jokes about race.
Post by: Spracne on May 27, 2022, 10:07:17 AM
The daily capacity that takes up my brain about thinking about trans people is about .000000005% and I'm sure it's the same with these two. They saw some emotional dumbasses react off a few dumb jokes and took advantage of it. It's that simple.
that's why Chappelle's crap is so harmful. Now you think trans folks all the time because jokes about them "trigger" people, while you probably would have been more of an ally if Chappelle was still telling thoughtful smart jokes about race.
I do kind of get the sense that Chappelle feels he has somehow transcended race due to the wealth he's accumulated. He frequently talks about how rich he is and how that affords him special privileges, and then I laugh at the joke and file away that thought for later. Now, obviously, he does still care about race issues, as evidenced by the special he put out after the Floyd murder. But he loves pissing people off too much to drop the trans schtick. It's a negative feedback loop he's stuck in.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on May 27, 2022, 10:09:03 AM
The daily capacity that takes up my brain about thinking about trans people is about .000000005% and I'm sure it's the same with these two. They saw some emotional dumbasses react off a few dumb jokes and took advantage of it. It's that simple.
damn wacky if its only 0.000000005% of your brain capacity then you sir have one gigantic ass brain b/c you have some some serious work ITT esp. when it comes to collegiate swimming. grats on your ability to think about so much stuff! :cheers:
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on May 27, 2022, 10:15:39 AM
Post by: nicname on May 27, 2022, 12:20:09 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 04, 2022, 05:07:40 PM
Post by: sys on June 04, 2022, 05:10:19 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 04, 2022, 05:12:17 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 04, 2022, 05:33:58 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 04, 2022, 05:36:30 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 04, 2022, 05:36:39 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on June 04, 2022, 06:44:08 PM
Post by: nicname on June 04, 2022, 06:59:03 PM
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1533203753536471041?s=21&t=fC4X3PZ8EAc3NMqDDMx5xA
Weird.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 04, 2022, 07:06:16 PM
Yup. Most logical people think the same.https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1533203753536471041?s=21&t=fC4X3PZ8EAc3NMqDDMx5xA
Weird.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 04, 2022, 07:54:38 PM
Then they came for the thundercrit and we stood idly by.
What’s next? Where does it end???
I’m legit worried that the only way I can get a weekend round of golf is to chop off my balls and get exquisite breasts
Post by: Trim on June 04, 2022, 11:19:14 PM
I’m legit worried that the only way I can get a weekend round of golf is to chop off my balls
:dubious:
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 08:37:57 AM
It started with the swimming and we laughed.I bet you thought this landed
Then they came for the thundercrit and we stood idly by.
What’s next? Where does it end???
I’m legit worried that the only way I can get a weekend round of golf is to chop off my balls and get exquisite breasts
Post by: bucket on June 05, 2022, 09:07:29 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 09:15:49 AM
I appreciated itMost crazed left wing wackadoodles support other crazed left wing wackadoodles for being basic AF! Makes sense.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 05, 2022, 09:24:04 AM
I sure hope it did. If I’m being completely honest I desperately need the Internet to validate my feelingsIt started with the swimming and we laughed.I bet you thought this landed
Then they came for the thundercrit and we stood idly by.
What’s next? Where does it end???
I’m legit worried that the only way I can get a weekend round of golf is to chop off my balls and get exquisite breasts
Post by: steve dave on June 05, 2022, 09:34:32 AM
Post by: Tobias on June 05, 2022, 10:22:10 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 10:56:59 AM
Post by: catastrophe on June 05, 2022, 11:09:21 AM
I went to church this morning and prayed for all of you demoncraps. T’s & P’s, friends!I hope you prayed for all of us to embrace Christ’s command to show faith in him through love rather than judgment. If so, TY. :thumbs:
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 11:30:51 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 05, 2022, 11:56:00 AM
I went to church this morning and prayed for all of you demoncraps. T’s & P’s, friends!
Wackydude you and I need to find some common ground my man, things feel like they are getting too spicy. Any chance you’re a fan of Billy Joel?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 12:34:12 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 05, 2022, 12:41:11 PM
Not really, but I like the cats and golf and the Chiefs! Those things are pretty rad!
Yeah I was going to suggest golf but gotdamn if I don’t love the crap out of getting my picture taken on the first tee holding my driver in front of me.
We’ll find something my man, I gotta believe
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 05, 2022, 12:46:32 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spracne on June 05, 2022, 01:32:41 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 01:38:45 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 05, 2022, 01:57:13 PM
BAC is the man. (I'm not saying The Man, to be clear.)
Thanks friend I think you’re pretty great too!
And y-l-a I got it covered man
https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/637049208684449792?s=20&t=7-Tq38Fhg0G7TCVm-qHMzQ (https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/637049208684449792?s=20&t=7-Tq38Fhg0G7TCVm-qHMzQ)
Post by: steve dave on June 05, 2022, 03:27:50 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on June 05, 2022, 03:32:56 PM
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1533203753536471041?s=21&t=fC4X3PZ8EAc3NMqDDMx5xA
OH NO! How will women's sports survive?
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 05, 2022, 03:48:55 PM
Post by: catastrophe on June 05, 2022, 03:56:12 PM
YLA is a quiet MAGA. At least Wacky has the balls to lose his crap about stuff.If you tell people to spend less time on gE, you best be ready for the SD horns :hookem:
Post by: DQ12 on June 06, 2022, 12:09:00 PM
in terms of someone funny that says lots of horrific crap I think nick mullen is by far the funniest.fun game...gimme Trump
Post by: Kat Kid on June 07, 2022, 05:35:16 AM
The most unfair thing about Joe Biden winning is that we were simultaneously denied trump pressers and they sent Biden away Ted Williams style when he had just hit .400 on the trail. They want to take everything from us.in terms of someone funny that says lots of horrific crap I think nick mullen is by far the funniest.fun game...gimme Trump
Post by: DQ12 on June 07, 2022, 06:57:55 AM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on June 07, 2022, 08:11:03 AM
Post by: ChiComCat on June 07, 2022, 08:12:19 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on June 07, 2022, 08:38:39 AM
You can’t give me a taste of the crazy town press conferences for 5ish years and then make me quit cold turkey. It’s actually more dangerous to quit cold turkey because of the withdrawals fyi.We were promised four years of Joe Biden calling people fat and challenging them to push up contests and stories about Corn Pop, and instead we got him calling Doocy a stupid son of a bitch and then complaining about his aides walking back his statements about overthrowing Putin. It is Trump crap without any fun.
Let Joe play ball! He wants to swing free and they are telling our slugger to take!
Post by: DQ12 on June 07, 2022, 12:38:31 PM
Having a farcical president is so much fun if you can keep the wheels on. I bet someone like Joe could manage it.
Post by: MakeItRain on June 07, 2022, 01:54:32 PM
Post by: DQ12 on June 08, 2022, 11:11:02 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on June 09, 2022, 07:41:14 AM
I think we are through the looking glass on rhetoric and I don’t see how we ever go back to Bush/Obama. People just are much less trusting of our institutions and authority and for many good reasons. I know you know this, but the bad part about trump was not the rhetoric.
Post by: steve dave on June 15, 2022, 07:57:57 AM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 19, 2022, 01:53:12 PM
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1538582975469830149?s=21&t=uTuQdHDQkatdEpgGZlu2Jw
Post by: MakeItRain on June 19, 2022, 02:57:54 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on June 19, 2022, 05:46:02 PM
Interesting
https://twitter.com/claytravis/status/1538582975469830149?s=21&t=uTuQdHDQkatdEpgGZlu2Jw
That's how this should be handled. Let the sports leagues set their own rules and keep the government out of it.
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 19, 2022, 06:09:34 PM
Post by: catastrophe on June 19, 2022, 06:44:42 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 19, 2022, 07:51:33 PM
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 19, 2022, 07:53:36 PM
The posted times are there for everyone to see. Whether you want to make it a personal crusade is up to you and Clay I guess.The party of science chimes in
Post by: LickNeckey on June 19, 2022, 09:27:18 PM
pretty amazing on a number of levels
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on June 20, 2022, 09:38:05 AM
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Post by: MakeItRain on June 21, 2022, 01:06:35 AM
You guys blocked my IP? Lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yet you're still here
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 03:11:56 PM
Post by: nicname on August 19, 2022, 03:36:55 PM
Post by: catastrophe on August 19, 2022, 04:49:23 PM
Quote
Now locked and loaded with a full year of preparation, Davidson wants that full-time status on the LPGA and there’s nothing standing in the way, especially legislation from a tour that, in 2010, removed a “female at birth” requirement which fully opens the door for Davidson, who has spent this year competing on the East Coast Women’s Pro Golf Tour.
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 04:50:41 PM
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 04:58:31 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 19, 2022, 05:02:48 PM
It’s official. Cat will eventually watch the Manti Teo doc and root for the now trans catfisher, because he’s woke af!
I got sucked into that show, damn. Made me late for my 8 am golf this morn
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 05:04:27 PM
Post by: Spracne on August 19, 2022, 05:25:20 PM
It’s official. Cat will eventually watch the Manti Teo doc and root for the now trans catfisher, because he’s woke af!
I got sucked into that show, damn. Made me late for my 8 am golf this morn
I watched it last night after donating a few farms to the Biden PAC and turning my freshly harvested organic mushrooms into a super earthy paste to pair with my fresh pesto. Even though I thought I knew the whole story, it was interesting to see the story told directly from the two principals involved.
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 05:32:37 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 19, 2022, 07:33:11 PM
Post by: Spracne on August 19, 2022, 07:53:36 PM
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 08:02:19 PM
What is #daxstalker talking about?Stop engaging!
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 08:10:45 PM
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 19, 2022, 08:18:02 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 19, 2022, 08:53:16 PM
What is #daxstalker talking about?I’m just thinking about your movement bitching and whining about dark money and then embracing it with zeal and gusto.
So your post about the non reality of you having farms juxtaposed to the reality of #blueanon laundering cash through dark money PACS.
I’m just a more sophisticated thinker than most.
Post by: catastrophe on August 19, 2022, 09:31:42 PM
I’m just a more sophisticated thinker than most.
Yes I’m getting serious very stable genius vibes.
Post by: star seed 7 on August 19, 2022, 09:45:01 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 19, 2022, 09:46:04 PM
I’m just a more sophisticated thinker than most.
Yes I’m getting serious very stable genius vibes.
Come on man, a little self awareness would help you in this blog.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 20, 2022, 05:09:35 AM
I'm not clicking a rough ridin' clay travis tweet or article, but I'm guessing he doesn't mention that Haley has previously failed to qualify at Q school. And by in contention and kicking asses after round one did he really mean tied for 61st place and 7 shots behind the leader? After two rounds she finished in 127th place and below the cut, a cut she already missed by the time that tweet was posted here.
It's funny that Manti Teo doc was mentioned. The take away from that should have been that there are real consequences for rough ridin' with people just for clout or giggles. It's sad that this woman, by all accounts, a very average golfer will now have to deal with people rough ridin' with her and making her life hell because Clay Travis wanted to use her to make a very misleading point. It's actually sad that there are people who actually don't find what he did with that tweet abhorrent. It's rough ridin' disgusting and anyone not disgusted with what he did to that woman is a piece of crap and I'd say it to your face.
Don't rough ridin' bother sending me a DM about this either. If anyone thinks this trolling of an innocent person and unleashing an entire internet of bigots and zealots on her is anything close to okay, you can spare me the bullshit about being misunderstood.
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 20, 2022, 10:46:53 AM
Post by: nicname on August 20, 2022, 01:22:32 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 23, 2022, 09:35:11 PM
[tweet]1562101167093841921[/tweet]?s=21&t=mw4cj4Ez66l5sRGwEYlk0g
Post by: MakeItRain on August 24, 2022, 01:14:26 AM
MIR bud I’m not looking to clay travis/Dax/pit argue with you etc. i am curious if you were on stage with this person what your counter argument would be. Hope you’re doing well bud
[tweet]1562101167093841921[/tweet]?s=21&t=mw4cj4Ez66l5sRGwEYlk0g
Despite the fact she says she's a molecular geneticist, none of her arguments were rooted in science, not a single one.
She said "being male or being female is a developmental process, you can't go backwards, do you can't change your sex, you cannot do that." If she's truly a geneticist, she's well aware that gender is not binary, that's not even a debate. Since she seems to be conflating gender with sex and refusing to acknowledge that gender isn't binary and has biological variances, I'd ask for clarification.
Her second has misinformation and even if she was accurate I'm very surprised to see her making arguments you'd see on twitter or hear on OANN or Prager U. First of all, there aren't women in California who have been getting impregnated by other "women." As far as anyone has discovered, it's happened in one prison in New Jersey with one inmate impregnating two other inmates. She used the word rape, neither of those impregnated women were raped. Why isn't she worried by the women actually raped by other women in prisons every single day? Why is she not worried about the men raped by other men in prison every day? Yes, there has been some cases of trans women raping other women in prisons, why are we or would we treat these rape cases differently that other rape cases?
She's also definitely not a historian. The Hague she's referring to is the Hague Convention that was done after WW1. What she meant was the Geneva Convention, which was negotiated after WW2 and that regulates prisons. Of course that's prisoners of war and has no bearing on prisons in the United States. What's interesting about the Geneva Convention is that it does not regulate that prisoners need to be segregated by gender, that's another misinformed social media talking point. The only time the Geneva Convention mentions gender or sex are provisions mandating, ironically enough, that genders be treated equally.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-treatment-prisoners-war#:~:text=Prisoners%20of%20war%20must%20at,breach%20of%20the%20present%20Convention.
Her last argument about her gym and a "dude" is laughable and doesn't even merit discussion.
I do not understand why this woman told them she's a molecular geneticist then didn't even attempt to make any arguments based on science. Frankly, I think she's lying and she didn't say anything I can't go pull off of any twitter account that looks like @gary315863 and has a dude sitting in his car with wraparound shades on.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 24, 2022, 01:21:30 AM
Post by: Spracne on August 24, 2022, 04:43:21 AM
In case I haven't made it clear, I don't care about any of this stuff. Who's a male, who's a female, who's a tomato, I don't care. My loud voice and advocacy about trans people has nothing to do with anything other than my steadfast belief that everyone deserves to be happy and I've yet to see anything close to a compelling argument, informing me, that we shouldn't just leave people alone and let them be who they want to be. No, I don't think someone winning some swim races or finishing 127th in a golf tournament is anywhere near where we need to be to dehumanize or jeopardize the health and safety of any one person or a group of people.
:thumbs:
Post by: michigancat on August 24, 2022, 06:52:00 AM
In case I haven't made it clear, I don't care about any of this stuff. Who's a male, who's a female, who's a tomato, I don't care. My loud voice and advocacy about trans people has nothing to do with anything other than my steadfast belief that everyone deserves to be happy and I've yet to see anything close to a compelling argument, informing me, that we shouldn't just leave people alone and let them be who they want to be. No, I don't think someone winning some swim races or finishing 127th in a golf tournament is anywhere near where we need to be to dehumanize or jeopardize the health and safety of any one person or a group of people.Well said.
C43, I'd ask you how you'd counter the Mormon Republican Utah governor's statement on vetoing the trans kids sports ban? (There is some stuff I disagree with in the entire letter but this is on the money):
Quote
Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. I must admit, I am not an expert on transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids who face enormous struggles. Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56.
? 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
? 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
? 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
? 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
? 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide1
Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2022/03/22/gov-spencer-coxs/
Post by: Spracne on August 24, 2022, 07:23:19 AM
In case I haven't made it clear, I don't care about any of this stuff. Who's a male, who's a female, who's a tomato, I don't care. My loud voice and advocacy about trans people has nothing to do with anything other than my steadfast belief that everyone deserves to be happy and I've yet to see anything close to a compelling argument, informing me, that we shouldn't just leave people alone and let them be who they want to be. No, I don't think someone winning some swim races or finishing 127th in a golf tournament is anywhere near where we need to be to dehumanize or jeopardize the health and safety of any one person or a group of people.Well said.
C43, I'd ask you how you'd counter the Mormon Republican Utah governor's statement on vetoing the trans kids sports ban? (There is some stuff I disagree with in the entire letter but this is on the money):QuoteFinally, there is one more important reason for this veto. I must admit, I am not an expert on transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids who face enormous struggles. Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56.
? 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
? 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
? 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
? 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
? 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide1
Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2022/03/22/gov-spencer-coxs/
:thumbs: That's genuine thoughtfulness. If it's not, he's the best liar I've ever come across.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 24, 2022, 01:20:29 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 01:53:37 PM
#blueanon has taken this topic and turned into entirely one sided discussion where if you don't accept their version of reality you're a bigot and anti-trans. The cisgendered women facing the consequences of having their dreams shattered because they have to compete against men just need to sit down, and STFU according to #blueanon. The cisgendered woman having to compete while on her period, with the cramping, bloating and other physical travails must simply accept they may be competing against a man who faces no such natural and cyclical physical roadblocks.
Post by: bucket on August 24, 2022, 02:03:34 PM
#blueanon has taken this topic and turned into entirely one sided discussion where if you don't accept their version of reality you're a bigot and anti-trans.
Misgendering them isn't helping your case either, but keep blaming blueanon.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:07:20 PM
#blueanon has taken this topic and turned into entirely one sided discussion where if you don't accept their version of reality you're a bigot and anti-trans.
Misgendering them isn't helping your case either, but keep blaming blueanon.
Just another driveby from #deflectobucket
#nosubstance
Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:19:27 PM
Definitely a huge issue affecting countless 8th place athletes
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:27:02 PM
It doesn't impact me, so not a huge issue (the deep thoughts of OKC)
So how many trans athletes would that be OKC? Not a percentage, the actual number.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 24, 2022, 02:29:42 PM
If it's not a huge issue, then why is it all over the news?
It is a dogwhistle for clay travis devotees. it whips the base into a frenzy
Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:30:27 PM
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Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:31:07 PM
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:31:13 PM
If it's not a huge issue, then why is it all over the news?
It is a dogwhistle for clay travis devotees. it whips the base into a frenzy
Another thing that whips #blueanon into a frenzy is a female calling trans-advoacy by men the ultimate form of misogyny.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:32:19 PM
eff those kids, though
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BTW, that's 35K trans athletes.
eff (figuratively) them cis-gendered female athletes (OKC)
Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:34:41 PM
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:37:47 PM
It’s just not a huge deal, dax. It’s along the same line as people talking about ‘woke people.’ It’s just made up controversy to fire up the uneducated
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Yes, oh it's just the "uneducated" now, so anyone who advocates for cis-gendered females is just "uneducated".
Check-Got it
A cis-gendered female feeling uncomfortable about a trans-woman being in their most personal of spaces is simply a cis-gendered female that needs to be (re) educated (OKC)
Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:42:22 PM
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:45:54 PM
I’m willing to bet my goEMAW account that more white republican males are talking about this issue more than anyone else
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:lol: :lol: You have no way of gauging this.
Everyone fully understands that people like you don't want the policies you advocate questioned. You'd just prefer to have whatever you want implemented as you want and anyone who disagrees is "uneducated" or whatever label you can conjure up for that situation.
The ultimate form of misogyny, indeed.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on August 24, 2022, 02:46:48 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 24, 2022, 02:54:07 PM
I’m willing to bet my goEMAW account that more white republican males are talking about this issue more than anyone else
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thanks captain obvious. It's like gay marriage and abortion. It doesn't effect old white idiots but they obsess over it
Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:55:44 PM
Dax spends his days yelling at the clouds about the injustice of the 8th place athleteI’m willing to bet my goEMAW account that more white republican males are talking about this issue more than anyone else
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:lol: :lol: You have no way of gauging this.
Everyone fully understands that people like you don't want the policies you advocate questioned. You'd just prefer to have whatever you want implemented as you want and anyone who disagrees is "uneducated" or whatever label you can conjure up for that situation.
The ultimate form of misogyny, indeed.
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Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 02:56:17 PM
I had to spell it out for our local old white idiotI’m willing to bet my goEMAW account that more white republican males are talking about this issue more than anyone else
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thanks captain obvious. It's like gay marriage and abortion. It doesn't effect old white idiots but they obsess over it
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:56:36 PM
Inside every #blueanon-Is a Fascist trying to get out
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 02:57:27 PM
I had to spell it out for our local old white idiotI’m willing to bet my goEMAW account that more white republican males are talking about this issue more than anyone else
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thanks captain obvious. It's like gay marriage and abortion. It doesn't effect old white idiots but they obsess over it
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Just an absolute derp
Sad
Post by: star seed 7 on August 24, 2022, 02:58:39 PM
What sports are furries allowed to play?
What sports are furries not allowed to play?
Post by: yoga-like_abana on August 24, 2022, 03:00:37 PM
Well, definitely able to play the someone who makes me uncomfortable kind. :DWhat sports are furries allowed to play?
What sports are flurries not allowed to play?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 03:01:31 PM
Dax spends his days yelling at the clouds about the injustice of the 8th place athleteI’m willing to bet my goEMAW account that more white republican males are talking about this issue more than anyone else
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:lol: :lol: You have no way of gauging this.
Everyone fully understands that people like you don't want the policies you advocate questioned. You'd just prefer to have whatever you want implemented as you want and anyone who disagrees is "uneducated" or whatever label you can conjure up for that situation.
The ultimate form of misogyny, indeed.
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eff them (cis)gendered girls/women (OKC)
Only we're allowed to talk about these things!! #blueanon
Post by: OK_Cat on August 24, 2022, 03:03:56 PM
Huge issue!
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 03:07:40 PM
Dax, going off the numbers in the post earlier about Utah, there was 1 trans female athlete in the state participating in girls sports.
Huge issue!
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That's your strawman
I'm not talking about just Utah. Only a total derp thinks that.
Now you and slowdug get back to being all :curse: :curse: :curse: about people talking about things that you don't want them to talk about.
Post by: michigancat on August 24, 2022, 03:12:25 PM
What sports are furries allowed to play?
What sports are furries not allowed to play?
I can see them being banned from swimming but I doubt the Utah legislature has taken action
Post by: yoga-like_abana on August 24, 2022, 03:45:05 PM
I was thinking that dog jumping event that is on espn sometimes.What sports are furries allowed to play?
What sports are furries not allowed to play?
I can see them being banned from swimming but I doubt the Utah legislature has taken action
Post by: sys on August 24, 2022, 05:03:14 PM
That's genuine thoughtfulness. If it's not, he's the best liar I've ever come across.
he's a good dude.
Post by: Spracne on August 24, 2022, 06:28:54 PM
The other way of looking at it is that the 5th place man, likely pushed a woman who would have gotten 5th, into 6th. In some events, the 7th place man pushed the woman would would have finished in 7th into 8th and in turn the 8th place (and final qualifying) woman got pushed into 9th, and thus rendered them a non qualifier for the next round. So all that hard work to achieve a goal of making it into the finals was for nothing because certain people consider it to be acceptable for men to participate in women's sports. We must take into account all of the alleged travails of the man, and the cisgendered woman must simply accept the consequences of not being as good, or as strong, or as fast as the man. Sorry sweetheart, the emotional well-being of the trans woman supersedes your goals and aspirations. Maybe next time, huh. Maybe train a little harder while you're at it sweetie.
#blueanon has taken this topic and turned into entirely one sided discussion where if you don't accept their version of reality you're a bigot and anti-trans. The cisgendered women facing the consequences of having their dreams shattered because they have to compete against men just need to sit down, and STFU according to #blueanon. The cisgendered woman having to compete while on her period, with the cramping, bloating and other physical travails must simply accept they may be competing against a man who faces no such natural and cyclical physical roadblocks.
Looks like dax learned the word "travails" today. Good job, dax!
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 06:54:30 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on August 24, 2022, 08:25:12 PM
What’s really frustrating is that there are a lot of otherwise reasonable, well meaning people out there who feel uncomfortable with transgenderism for whatever reason, and are looking for a little confirmation bias so when someone with letters after their name sounds intelligent when speaking and tells them what they want to hear, theyre happy to swallow it hook line and sinker and then to proselytize that idea.
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 24, 2022, 09:33:14 PM
Post by: DreamWeaver69 on August 24, 2022, 09:39:39 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on August 24, 2022, 09:52:58 PM
#blueanon has taken this topic and turned into entirely one sided discussion where if you don't accept their version of reality you're a bigot and anti-trans.
Misgendering them isn't helping your case either, but keep blaming blueanon.
The irony of dax posting this almost directly after rusty reposted the letter from Utah's governor is almost too rich for even my extreme sweet tooth.
I think the bar to clear for not being a bigot is so low, that you have to make a concerted effort not to clear it. You don't have to wear women's clothing. You don't have to march in a gay pride parade. You don't have to have a trans friend. You don't even have to put a trans flag on your social media. If you can't even stomach not intentionally misgendering someone, that's tough but we can work around it. All you need to do to clear that bar, is to simply mind your own business, let people live their lives. They're not hurting you so maybe keep your opinion, that could dehumanize someone, to yourself. Is that difficult? Is it hard not to care about a trans woman who has tried very hard, for multiple years but haven't gotten close to not getting a tour card? Do we have to point her out and laugh or scoff at her? Did dragging Lia Thomas all over gods existence do anything to improve the lives of the people doing it?
I'm certain of this, my good friend CF3 has never been called a bigot by me. My good buddy Dlew has never been called a bigot by me. The governor of Utah has never been called a bigot by me. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure that me and these three people don't view trans rights exactly the same way that I do.
It's really not that hard to not be seen as a bigot. The choice is ultimately yours. I mean people can call you a bigot all they want to, there's at least three posters on this board who have, doesn't bother me in the least though, because I can look myself in the mirror and know I'm good. If you're worried about being called a bigot, by some nebulous group of people, maybe instead of crying to us, some self-reflection might be in order.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 24, 2022, 09:55:48 PM
The Manti doc kinda pissed me off tho, because the obvious villain in the whole story, got catered like a baby through it, because he is a she now. No matter what gender, sexuality you have, etc. They should have ripped her apart and tried harder to get answers.
lol, that's how you saw it? Who is this they you speak of? The filmmakers didn't editorialize anyone, even Brian Kelly who clearly left his guy out to dry, and the person who was actually affected by what she did said he forgives her. Does Mantei forgive her because "he is now a she?"
Post by: DQ12 on August 24, 2022, 10:05:40 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 24, 2022, 10:41:07 PM
Post by: cfbandyman on August 24, 2022, 10:46:33 PM
In case I haven't made it clear, I don't care about any of this stuff. Who's a male, who's a female, who's a tomato, I don't care. My loud voice and advocacy about trans people has nothing to do with anything other than my steadfast belief that everyone deserves to be happy and I've yet to see anything close to a compelling argument, informing me, that we shouldn't just leave people alone and let them be who they want to be. No, I don't think someone winning some swim races or finishing 127th in a golf tournament is anywhere near where we need to be to dehumanize or jeopardize the health and safety of any one person or a group of people.
Sums it up better than I can
Post by: MakeItRain on August 24, 2022, 10:47:09 PM
0.44% of high school athletes being trans is quite a bit higher than I’d have guessed tbh
Yeah, that's slightly higher than the estimated percentage of Americans who identify as trans, not sure if that number tracks.
Post by: sys on August 24, 2022, 11:02:48 PM
Yeah, that's slightly higher than the estimated percentage of Americans who identify as trans, not sure if that number tracks.
pretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 25, 2022, 12:19:44 AM
Yeah, that's slightly higher than the estimated percentage of Americans who identify as trans, not sure if that number tracks.
pretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.
High schoolers? No. Sorry but no. People are more likely to identify as trans when they are no longer under their parents thumbs.
BTW according to the National Federation of State High School Associations about 8,000,000 high schoolers participate in sports annually, that means about 350,000 transgender teens that participate in high school athletics, that would be 1/5 of all Americans who identify as trans, that's too many teens.
Post by: sys on August 25, 2022, 12:23:45 AM
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
Post by: michigancat on August 25, 2022, 05:06:30 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on August 25, 2022, 07:34:09 AM
Post by: catastrophe on August 25, 2022, 08:00:14 AM
The Manti doc kinda pissed me off tho, because the obvious villain in the whole story, got catered like a baby through it, because he is a she now. No matter what gender, sexuality you have, etc. They should have ripped her apart and tried harder to get answers.
lol, that's how you saw it? Who is this they you speak of? The filmmakers didn't editorialize anyone, even Brian Kelly who clearly left his guy out to dry, and the person who was actually affected by what she did said he forgives her. Does Mantei forgive her because "he is now a she?"
Yeah I think you’re projecting a bit, Wacks. The documentary said several times that the people they interviewed weren’t even aware of the transition, and I think most people that listened to Tuiassosopo’s version of the story came out of it thinking she’s a legit psychopath.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 25, 2022, 10:20:14 AM
:jerk:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
Serious question, what am I missing? The very first line of that says
Quote
Nearly one in five people who identify as transgender are ages 13-17.
Isn't that saying that less than 20% of people who identify as trans are high school and middle schoolers?
Post by: Trim on August 25, 2022, 10:27:33 AM
Post by: DQ12 on August 25, 2022, 10:29:46 AM
~20% of the entire population being 13-17 strike me as disproportionate. Probably a few things working behind the scenes there::jerk:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
Serious question, what am I missing? The very first line of that saysQuoteNearly one in five people who identify as transgender are ages 13-17.
Isn't that saying that less than 20% of people who identify as trans are high school and middle schoolers?
1. Most older Gen X'rs and beyond spent their formative years in a world where being trans was extremely tabboo (moreso than now). So coming out or exploring it was never really a realistic option.
2. The other side of that coin is that now that being trans is more widely accepted, younger people see exploring/coming out as a viable option.
3. Trans suicide rates probably contribute to there being fewer older trans people than younger trans people.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 25, 2022, 10:44:23 AM
Nearly 20% of all people who identify as trans come from a narrow 4-year age group.
Yeah, I get that but he said this
(http://pretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.)
Yes, but the percentages over 35 years old is almost certainly in the single digits so roughly 70% of those remaining people who identify as trans are going to be in the young adult age range.
Post by: DQ12 on August 25, 2022, 11:02:02 AM
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/)
It has a table in there setting forth the state by state and total US demographics, separates by age groups (13-17, 18-24, 25-64). That says that a little over 1.4% of 13-17 year olds identify as trans. In NY, it's 3%.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 25, 2022, 11:13:09 AM
Just catching up on the last 24 hours of this thread but MiR thank you, your sentiment was incredibly well put and your dismantling of that lady’s argument was very succinct.
What’s really frustrating is that there are a lot of otherwise reasonable, well meaning people out there who feel uncomfortable with transgenderism for whatever reason, and are looking for a little confirmation bias so when someone with letters after their name sounds intelligent when speaking and tells them what they want to hear, theyre happy to swallow it hook line and sinker and then to proselytize that idea.
but they just want to be left alone to be aggressively worried about women's high school sports in different states. Why can't you leave them alone to be enraged that a girl they have never and will never meet might possibly finish 8th instead of 7th.
Leave them alone to lose their crap about this and try and ban these teens from competing or they will get psycho-ass violent
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 25, 2022, 11:13:57 AM
~20% of the entire population being 13-17 strike me as disproportionate. Probably a few things working behind the scenes there::jerk:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/
Serious question, what am I missing? The very first line of that saysQuoteNearly one in five people who identify as transgender are ages 13-17.
Isn't that saying that less than 20% of people who identify as trans are high school and middle schoolers?
1. Most older Gen X'rs and beyond spent their formative years in a world where being trans was extremely tabboo (moreso than now). So coming out or exploring it was never really a realistic option.
2. The other side of that coin is that now that being trans is more widely accepted, younger people see exploring/coming out as a viable option.
3. Trans suicide rates probably contribute to there being fewer older trans people than younger trans people.
this is pretty telling
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 25, 2022, 12:42:02 PM
On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt :curse: :curse: :curse: that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of: Never question us!!
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 25, 2022, 12:58:00 PM
Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.
On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt :curse: :curse: :curse: that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of: Never question us!!
I am for sure never question me but that is because I am exponentially smarter than you.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 25, 2022, 01:01:36 PM
Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.
On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt :curse: :curse: :curse: that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of: Never question us!!
I am for sure never question me but that is because I am exponentially smarter than you.
You have the depth of a child's wading pool.
And :lol: :lol: at your constant sub posting
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 25, 2022, 01:06:46 PM
Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.
On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt :curse: :curse: :curse: that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of: Never question us!!
I am for sure never question me but that is because I am exponentially smarter than you.
You have the depth of a child's wading pool.
And :lol: :lol: at your constant sub posting
:bawl: some more
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 25, 2022, 01:09:02 PM
Post by: sys on August 25, 2022, 01:17:01 PM
Here's an interesting website on trans demographics...
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/)
that's the same link that i posted. that you commented on, indicating that you probably clicked on the link that i provided and then read some of the content there (before 30 minutes later googling, finding the same source and not recognizing it?).
Post by: sys on August 25, 2022, 01:19:05 PM
Yes, but the percentages over 35 years old is almost certainly in the single digits so roughly 70% of those remaining people who identify as trans are going to be in the young adult age range.
i don't really understand your comment, but as others have mentioned, both of the links i provided show data that a higher % of young people, including persons of hs age, identify as trans than occurs among older people.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 25, 2022, 01:58:19 PM
Is the argument being made:
A) Look, you're talking about 4 kids in the entire state of Utah, this is not a big enough deal to even bother addressing it, it's such an outlier to most athletic competitions it's not worth our time.
or
B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.
or is it a combo?
If it's A I mean I guess there's validity. I'm sure there are thousands of kids who get an unfair shake in high school athletics. Their coach is a jerk or incompetent, they got cut by a racist coach, they got screwed by a hometown ref, they are a good player at whatever sport but never got to play on a good team because their school sucks, the booster club is crap so they have crap equipment etc. And you're right, I don't really give any thought to those, I guess we'll call them unfair situations- so why make it such a big deal if one NCAA swimmer or whatever gets a spot taken by a trans swimmer?
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
Post by: catastrophe on August 25, 2022, 02:24:11 PM
Feel like this thread is going a lot of places.To your point, I think there is a reasonable discussion to be had (and to some extent has been had ITT) about fairness in sports and if there is a balance that can be struck between allowing students to participate in sports as the gender they identify with vs. limiting unfair advantages.
Is the argument being made:
A) Look, you're talking about 4 kids in the entire state of Utah, this is not a big enough deal to even bother addressing it, it's such an outlier to most athletic competitions it's not worth our time.
or
B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.
or is it a combo?
If it's A I mean I guess there's validity. I'm sure there are thousands of kids who get an unfair shake in high school athletics. Their coach is a jerk or incompetent, they got cut by a racist coach, they got screwed by a hometown ref, they are a good player at whatever sport but never got to play on a good team because their school sucks, the booster club is crap so they have crap equipment etc. And you're right, I don't really give any thought to those, I guess we'll call them unfair situations- so why make it such a big deal if one NCAA swimmer or whatever gets a spot taken by a trans swimmer?
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
Where it has landed, though, is very few people who raise the issue are interested in having that discussion. Instead, they’re using it as pretense to criticize people they already don’t like. So I think most of the actual discussion here is geared towards that piece of it, if that makes sense.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 25, 2022, 03:45:31 PM
Yes, but the percentages over 35 years old is almost certainly in the single digits so roughly 70% of those remaining people who identify as trans are going to be in the young adult age range.
i don't really understand your comment, but as others have mentioned, both of the links i provided show data that a higher % of young people, including persons of hs age, identify as trans than occurs among older people.
You didn't understand but felt the need to comment beyond asking for a clarification?
Quote
pretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.
I guess if we're going to continue down this road I should ask what you mean by "older americans." I took that as you saying literally older than everyone in high school, otherwise your original clarification was pretty unnecessary. If you meant literal old people, like the 65+ group in the UCLA study, I have to wonder who, reading this board, that you think didn't know that?
Post by: MakeItRain on August 25, 2022, 04:02:18 PM
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
Well, I think different people are making different arguments, mine has nothing to do with the amount of transgender people or athletes that exist. Which speaks to the question I have for you. Can you help me to see what any of the conversation, narrowly about transgender girls and women competing against cisgender girls and women, broadly about transgender rights, have to do with personal freedom?
Do cisgender girls have the constitutional right to compete against certain people with a specific range of body composition? If you're 5'5" 135 pounds and trans you're not infringing on the rights of the high school softball player and her very involved parents, or do those rights only get infringed upon if she's 5'11" 170?
What personal freedom does anyone have when it comes to who their opponents are when playing sports? I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on August 25, 2022, 04:08:35 PM
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
Well, I think different people are making different arguments, mine has nothing to do with the amount of transgender people or athletes that exist. Which speaks to the question I have for you. Can you help me to see what any of the conversation, narrowly about transgender girls and women competing against cisgender girls and women, broadly about transgender rights, have to do with personal freedom?
Do cisgender girls have the constitutional right to compete against certain people with a specific range of body composition? If you're 5'5" 135 pounds and trans you're not infringing on the rights of the high school softball player and her very involved parents, or do those rights only get infringed upon if she's 5'11" 170?
What personal freedom does anyone have when it comes to who their opponents are when playing sports? I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?
It depends on the sport. In wrestling or boxing, for example, you do get matched up with someone at a similar weight. And any credible league will regulate doping to help prevent body chemistry from becoming too lopsided.
I don't think there should be laws for any of this. Individual sports leagues should set their own rules and limitations.
Post by: sys on August 25, 2022, 04:14:43 PM
You didn't understand but felt the need to comment beyond asking for a clarification?
yeah. your comment to my post previous to the one i quoted was phrased as a question to me so i felt an obligation to respond.
Quotepretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.
I guess if we're going to continue down this road I should ask what you mean by "older americans." I took that as you saying literally older than everyone in high school, otherwise your original clarification was pretty unnecessary. If you meant literal old people, like the 65+ group in the UCLA study, I have to wonder who, reading this board, that you think didn't know that?
iirc, excluding young children, for any two age ranges the younger cohort features a higher % that identifies as trans than the older.
if you're asking the point of my original comment, it was to point out the reason why 0.44% of hs athletes identifying as trans could both be less than the % of hs students that identify as trans and higher than the % of americans that identify as trans.
Post by: Trim on August 25, 2022, 04:23:18 PM
I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?
Was this a transgender example or did your tournament have too few participants a la strut n cut being bumped into the d-1 league?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 25, 2022, 04:46:04 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on August 25, 2022, 06:34:25 PM
Feel like this thread is going a lot of places.
Is the argument being made:
A) Look, you're talking about 4 kids in the entire state of Utah, this is not a big enough deal to even bother addressing it, it's such an outlier to most athletic competitions it's not worth our time.
or
B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.
or is it a combo?
If it's A I mean I guess there's validity. I'm sure there are thousands of kids who get an unfair shake in high school athletics. Their coach is a jerk or incompetent, they got cut by a racist coach, they got screwed by a hometown ref, they are a good player at whatever sport but never got to play on a good team because their school sucks, the booster club is crap so they have crap equipment etc. And you're right, I don't really give any thought to those, I guess we'll call them unfair situations- so why make it such a big deal if one NCAA swimmer or whatever gets a spot taken by a trans swimmer?
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
CF3 let me take a crack at this using an analogy you might better understand. Lets say, you're a sports fan. You don't really care for football or basketball, but you just love the crap out of baseball. you live it, you breathe it, it is your thing. But here's the other thing...you're an A's fan. You didn't choose it. You can't imagine anyone would willingly choose this team to root for. You've tried, god knows you've tried, to be a Dodgers fan or a Yankees fan or a Giants fan, your life would be so much easier if those were your teams. But no. For whatever reason, you just love the crap out of the A's with every fiber of your being.
Ok now so lets switch gears. MLB has noticed there has been an uptick in fights between fans at games. The fanbases overwhelmingly responsible for the fights would be the Yankees, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, and the Braves. The A's fans...they're responsible for, oh, let's say one half of one percent of the fights that happen. But one time an Angels fan got into a scrape with an A's fan and while the Angels fan was pummelling the ever loving crap out of the A's fan, the A's fan managed to reach into his pocket and grab his keys and got in one good swing and put the Angels fan's eye out.
So what happened as a result? Well turns out a few Twins fans happened to see the whole thing and they were mad as hell and they went to the commissioner of baseball and demanded that from now on, before entering any stadium, all A's fans were required to be fully strip searched with cavity check to make sure they weren't bringing in any weapons, that includes keys. This rule only applies to the A's fans, mind you. A's fans, no keys. Any other fanbase...have all the keys you want, we really don't care if you have your keys, after all, its incredibly stupid to forbid a fan from carrying their keys.
So like...how are you, the A's fan, feeling right now? Your life already sucks pretty hard as it is, your team is a perrenial basement dweller, nobody cares about the team, there are like 50 total A's fans in the entire country, and now they want to pile on, over something where its obvious the Angels fan was just feeling really insecure because he has to wear an eye patch now because an A's fan got in a lucky swing during a fight that he started.
Its not a perfect analogy, i realize, but maybe if you try looking at it through that lens does that help at all?
Post by: michigancat on August 25, 2022, 07:06:00 PM
B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
I'm just going to address this. I don't think it's about a right to "happiness" for trans kids, it's about a right to participate in society the way they are. To MiR's point, all the cis kids have that right whether or not a trans kid participates! What personal freedom or right do they lose if a trans kid participates?
Another way to look at it: you're equating the sadness of a trans kid not being allowed to participate in a sport at all with the sadness of a kid who perhaps finishes 8th instead of 7th. (Or even 2nd instead or 1st!) Do you think that's a fair equivalence? There is always a balance of rights but i think one party is going to be much more damaged in this scenario. Like the Republican governor said, let's err on the side of compassion.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 25, 2022, 08:14:08 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on August 25, 2022, 08:15:51 PM
B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
I'm just going to address this. I don't think it's about a right to "happiness" for trans kids, it's about a right to participate in society the way they are. To MiR's point, all the cis kids have that right whether or not a trans kid participates! What personal freedom or right do they lose if a trans kid participates?
Another way to look at it: you're equating the sadness of a trans kid not being allowed to participate in a sport at all with the sadness of a kid who perhaps finishes 8th instead of 7th. (Or even 2nd instead or 1st!) Do you think that's a fair equivalence? There is always a balance of rights but i think one party is going to be much more damaged in this scenario. Like the Republican governor said, let's err on the side of compassion.
Extremely well said
Post by: wetwillie on August 25, 2022, 08:31:48 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on August 25, 2022, 11:38:31 PM
I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.
Well, I think different people are making different arguments, mine has nothing to do with the amount of transgender people or athletes that exist. Which speaks to the question I have for you. Can you help me to see what any of the conversation, narrowly about transgender girls and women competing against cisgender girls and women, broadly about transgender rights, have to do with personal freedom?
Do cisgender girls have the constitutional right to compete against certain people with a specific range of body composition? If you're 5'5" 135 pounds and trans you're not infringing on the rights of the high school softball player and her very involved parents, or do those rights only get infringed upon if she's 5'11" 170?
What personal freedom does anyone have when it comes to who their opponents are when playing sports? I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?
It depends on the sport. In wrestling or boxing, for example, you do get matched up with someone at a similar weight. And any credible league will regulate doping to help prevent body chemistry from becoming too lopsided.
I don't think there should be laws for any of this. Individual sports leagues should set their own rules and limitations.
I don't know how you can account for body composition in any way, shape, or form. I don't know how you can do it without practicing discrimination, like the cisgender African women banned from running in the 400.
One of the reasons people had an issue with Lia Thomas was because she was so much bigger than her competition but she was a similar size of other women swimmers, that people actually know. Michael Phelps had outrageous physical advantages over his competition. Since sports have been sported there have always been inequities in physical prowess, that's going to always exist.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 25, 2022, 11:49:32 PM
Post by: DQ12 on August 26, 2022, 07:51:50 AM
Haha. Yeah. Whoops.Here's an interesting website on trans demographics...
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/)
that's the same link that i posted. that you commented on, indicating that you probably clicked on the link that i provided and then read some of the content there (before 30 minutes later googling, finding the same source and not recognizing it?).
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 26, 2022, 10:29:02 AM
However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.
So as to the question of sports, yeah, I personally put it in a category of a place of vulnerability for women. I get it! Tons of women can kick my ass in tons of sports! I think its ok to have places that are just for girls, and athletics is one of them. I mean, why do we segregate athletics by sex and gender? We don't segregate English class or the marching band. My daughter's soccer team and basketball team has tons of pride in their femininity. You want me to call you she/her, fine, but that doesn't make you a girl. Again, until recently, this was a very mainstream view.
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.
I can consider and acknowledge MIR or Mich's position is rooted in wanting to be gentle towards trans folks, even if disagree with the conclusion.
An unfortunate aspect of this entire argument is that it's dominated online by Clay Travis/Matt Walsh/Fox News types and is very much driven by fear. That's very annoying and unhelpful.
Anyway- I probably didn't answer MIR or Michigancat's questions as well as I could've- but that's all I got for now.
Post by: catastrophe on August 26, 2022, 11:03:16 AM
However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.
Maybe a little aside, but this was a big talking point for the bathroom bill. The grand irony of the situation you describe is that it’s far more likely to occur where transgender people are PREVENTED from using the facilities that more closely identify with their gender.
Not saying that is the situation you faced. Just food for thought.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 26, 2022, 11:18:50 AM
Post by: Cire on August 26, 2022, 11:23:26 AM
Obviously there will be a higher percentage of trans young people than the general population due to progress in society but 0.44% of high school kids in sports does seem high. You could point to the Utah numbers as evidence, but I'm guessing they have far lower percentages of trans youth than the general population.
I wonder if they are counting cheer/dance
Post by: MakeItRain on August 26, 2022, 01:22:16 PM
I guess my basic position is I am fine addressing folks with kindness and dignity in the way they'd like to be addressed, and to treat them with as much dignity as I hope to be treated. I had a trans man work for me for over a year, and we had a good relationship. I referred to him as him in the workplace etc. But there was nothing about that work environment that had any sex or gender segregation outside of the restrooms, but even those were single stall so I never even bothered to notice which restroom anyone used- most people just used the one that was unlocked!
However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.
So as to the question of sports, yeah, I personally put it in a category of a place of vulnerability for women. I get it! Tons of women can kick my ass in tons of sports! I think its ok to have places that are just for girls, and athletics is one of them. I mean, why do we segregate athletics by sex and gender? We don't segregate English class or the marching band. My daughter's soccer team and basketball team has tons of pride in their femininity. You want me to call you she/her, fine, but that doesn't make you a girl. Again, until recently, this was a very mainstream view.
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.
I can consider and acknowledge MIR or Mich's position is rooted in wanting to be gentle towards trans folks, even if disagree with the conclusion.
An unfortunate aspect of this entire argument is that it's dominated online by Clay Travis/Matt Walsh/Fox News types and is very much driven by fear. That's very annoying and unhelpful.
Anyway- I probably didn't answer MIR or Michigancat's questions as well as I could've- but that's all I got for now.
I don't think your position is one based on bigotry. I do think it is based on soft sold misogyny and dated gender norms though. The need to protect girls while not thinking that boys could be just a traumatized, for those who are trying to protect the perceived trauma of girls, is very problematic. I think for most people the issue isn't trans people themselves but the fact that trans women threaten the idea of femininity. It's why conservatives only talk about girls in sports and girls bathrooms.
Post by: sys on August 26, 2022, 01:33:21 PM
Maybe a little aside, but this was a big talking point for the bathroom bill. The grand irony of the situation you describe is that it’s far more likely to occur where transgender people are PREVENTED from using the facilities that more closely identify with their gender.
i agree with cf3 on much of his post, although not in his conclusion as relates to hs sports, but i think the a&m thread nicely highlights that there's not really any categorization of trans people that satisfies everyone that objects to them.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 26, 2022, 01:39:16 PM
Post by: sys on August 26, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
That's always going to be the case when you're objecting to any sweeping class of people, particularly classified as "them." I'm certain there are a lot of trans people who completely disagree with my simple, leave people alone and let them live their life method. People want to be acknowledged, recognized, and treated as equal members of society.
agreed.
Post by: michigancat on August 26, 2022, 02:20:23 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Quote
Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.
What kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 26, 2022, 02:29:29 PM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on August 26, 2022, 02:30:26 PM
Cocks, the answer is cocksI mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Post by: michigancat on August 26, 2022, 02:36:17 PM
Amazing
Cocks, the answer is cocksI mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
glad to see the adults have joined the discourse
Post by: yoga-like_abana on August 26, 2022, 02:36:39 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 26, 2022, 02:55:25 PM
AmazingCocks, the answer is cocksI mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
glad to see the adults have joined the discourse
There is no real discourse here. Just long winded affirmation.
It's becoming more and more clear that cis-gendered females must accept a whole new paradigm, or otherwise be labeled bigots or Nazi TERFS. Traditional cis-gendered female personal spaces are being eradicated. Cis-gendered females must set their fears and concerns for their safety and well being aside otherwise potentially face the most ugly of ridicule, bordering on violence in several instances.
Translation: Cis-gendered female and potential Nazi TERF - just deal with this or else!! Your concerns for your well being are secondary to our agenda. We'll fight you every step of the way with our statistics and our anecdotes, even if your simply trying to change your clothes or go to the bathroom or change your tampoon without a biological man mere feet away.
Post by: catastrophe on August 26, 2022, 03:00:04 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
I feel like the answer here is obvious. His concept (or Platonic form for my philosophy nerds) of a woman is someone who was born female and presumably without such major genetic abnormalities that her sex is obvious from her reproductive organs and some other common characteristics.
I don’t see that as particularly unreasonable to have a separate definition of “woman” and “trans woman,” although I think in practice it would be rare to draw that distinction in regular discourse without some pretty loaded connotations behind it.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 26, 2022, 03:39:43 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?
I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.
Quote
What kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?
A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 26, 2022, 03:43:29 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?
I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.QuoteWhat kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?
A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.
You're wasting your time.
#blueanongE has already decided. Best to move on.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 26, 2022, 03:46:27 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 26, 2022, 03:57:20 PM
I actually disagree. I'm putting myself in a position where I have to examine my own thoughts and arguments and let them be challenged.
Your thoughts are spot on. You are legitimately concerned about the rights of biological females on a go forward basis. Unfortunately you are talking with members of a political movement with a growing subculture that no longer cares about the rights of cis-gendered females (outside of Abortion, and that's merely as a means to attack Republicans and conservatives). Particularly troubling is that when cis-gendered females express concerns about their safety, when they express concerns about the activities and actions of trans-women in traditional female personal spaces. They are now being attacked and silenced more and more.
In terms of things like athletics, look at all the anecdotal BS they've trolled out in this thread. Look at how they've spoken about the cis-gendered female who finishes in 7th place, behind a biological male. Look at the passive aggressive nonsense being shown by some in trying to make a point (poorly).
Again, you're wasting your time.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 26, 2022, 04:26:18 PM
I guess my basic position is I am fine addressing folks with kindness and dignity in the way they'd like to be addressed, and to treat them with as much dignity as I hope to be treated. I had a trans man work for me for over a year, and we had a good relationship. I referred to him as him in the workplace etc. But there was nothing about that work environment that had any sex or gender segregation outside of the restrooms, but even those were single stall so I never even bothered to notice which restroom anyone used- most people just used the one that was unlocked!
However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.
So as to the question of sports, yeah, I personally put it in a category of a place of vulnerability for women. I get it! Tons of women can kick my ass in tons of sports! I think its ok to have places that are just for girls, and athletics is one of them. I mean, why do we segregate athletics by sex and gender? We don't segregate English class or the marching band. My daughter's soccer team and basketball team has tons of pride in their femininity. You want me to call you she/her, fine, but that doesn't make you a girl. Again, until recently, this was a very mainstream view.
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.
I can consider and acknowledge MIR or Mich's position is rooted in wanting to be gentle towards trans folks, even if disagree with the conclusion.
An unfortunate aspect of this entire argument is that it's dominated online by Clay Travis/Matt Walsh/Fox News types and is very much driven by fear. That's very annoying and unhelpful.
Anyway- I probably didn't answer MIR or Michigancat's questions as well as I could've- but that's all I got for now.
I don't think your position is one based on bigotry. I do think it is based on soft sold misogyny and dated gender norms though. The need to protect girls while not thinking that boys could be just a traumatized, for those who are trying to protect the perceived trauma of girls, is very problematic. I think for most people the issue isn't trans people themselves but the fact that trans women threaten the idea of femininity. It's why conservatives only talk about girls in sports and girls bathrooms.
This is a good debate. I have 6 girls all playing sports in the Silver Lake area. No trans youths involved so until that actually happens, I know my opinion is un-needed. This is my primary beef with the Clay Travis set which is "we just want top be left alone" when really they want to and need to be victimized and absolutely be involved in decisions that have zero to do with them.
However, CF3 is right about the girls time in sports being kind of unique. Mine bond uniquely with their teammates during practice, competition and outside of the lines. I am not sure if a trans teammate or competitor would change that. But, I don't think there are lots of tweens willing to go through transition in order to show up for a huge fondle sesh in the girls locker room after volleyball practice.
I would be curious in what specific instances has a girl actually felt threatened by a trans teammate or competitor? Is it just a boogie man or is it reported? If there are trans athletes making competitors feel threatened then they should be gone.
But, if there are biological competitors making others feel threatened....they should be gone also
Post by: Trim on August 26, 2022, 04:30:23 PM
I have 6 girls all playing sports in the Silver Lake area.
A badass would have 7 in St. Mary’s.
Post by: MakeItRain on August 26, 2022, 04:31:33 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?
I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.QuoteWhat kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?
A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.
I have two middle school girls playing sports, what are these benefits that would be lost by participating with or against a trans girl?
Also do you actually know if your children are attending school with or participating in extra curricular activities with a trans child? I'd bet that you actually have no idea. This goes back to those idealized gender roles. You have a certain image of what trans people look like and that frequently isn't the case, particularly in children.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 26, 2022, 04:51:23 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?
I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.QuoteWhat kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?
A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.
I have two middle school girls playing sports, what are these benefits that would be lost by participating with or against a trans girl?
Also do you actually know if your children are attending school with or participating in extra curricular activities with a trans child? I'd bet that you actually have no idea. This goes back to those idealized gender roles. You have a certain image of what trans people look like and that frequently isn't the case, particularly in children.
I know of at least one kid in CF3 jr’s class who has identified as a trans boy since second grade. My boy is friends with the kid, they’ve been to our house.
So school- yes i know of several, at least one has been to my house and i know the mom. I wouldn’t say we’re friends- but we’re friendly- say hi at school events and junk.
Extra cuticular like sports- i guess I can’t be certain when playing other teams, but if one of the girls on our girls soccer or basketball teams is trans then they transitioned before age 4. I’d be pretty surprised.
The other main activity my kids do is piano. No idea.
Post by: chum1 on August 26, 2022, 04:52:49 PM
Post by: michigancat on August 26, 2022, 04:58:34 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?
It probably started when I visited my best friend's sibling in the hospital after a suicide attempt early on in their in their transition when they were not receiving adequate support from their family or medical providers. In the 20 years since I've seen them go through the transition successfully (including surgery) and see the family embrace them and love them and everyone end up in a much better place.
I've listened and learned about the difference between biological sex and gender and data on the mental health ramifications of not supporting transgender youth when though I had seen it firsthand. I read threads like this:
https://twitter.com/JesseThorn/status/1377287133921116160
I have friends with children that transitioned and I saw how hard it can be for parents. My kids have trans and nonbinary friends and coach me on pronouns even when their friends aren't around. So I guess there's lots of reasons I came to that conclusion.
Also, what you described is biological sex and not gender, and your hard-line stance is intentionally ignoring how modern science and medicine treat transgender people.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 26, 2022, 05:00:55 PM
I have 6 girls all playing sports in the Silver Lake area.
A badass would have 7 in St. Mary’s.
Don't fly too close to the son
Post by: michigancat on August 26, 2022, 05:06:54 PM
I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.
I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?
Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?
I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.QuoteWhat kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?
A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.
Again, how does a MTF trans kid take away any sort of benefit? So far I've only seen you imply that trans girls will be more physically abusive than cis girls. Is there more than that I'm missing?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on August 26, 2022, 05:19:59 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on September 07, 2022, 11:22:35 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 07:03:16 AM
https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1632254741077020674
https://twitter.com/David_Leavitt/status/1632091259064950784
Absolutely vile
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 07:36:39 AM
Surely this is being escalated by the media, right? RIGHT?!?!
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 08:03:03 AM
I have done no research, and this is the first I have seen of this, but I suspect that dude is going to say he is not advocating killing anyone and instead is saying that he advocates eliminating the acceptance of transgenderism, right?Not exactly, he said it can't be genocide because the word genocide means it is based on genetics and transgender people are just making a choice
Surely this is being escalated by the media, right? RIGHT?!?!
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 08:20:54 AM
Post by: OK_Cat on March 06, 2023, 08:32:58 AM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 08:38:45 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
"Save women's sports" is the only reasonable-sounding argument these people have, so they trumpet it all the time to get people to support them making it illegal to be trans.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 06, 2023, 10:17:14 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 10:22:05 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
"Save women's sports" is the only reasonable-sounding argument these people have, so they trumpet it all the time to get people to support them making it illegal to be trans.
that didn't answer my question. and I'm not sure who you're talking about.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 06, 2023, 10:28:11 AM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 10:30:50 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
"Save women's sports" is the only reasonable-sounding argument these people have, so they trumpet it all the time to get people to support them making it illegal to be trans.
that didn't answer my question. and I'm not sure who you're talking about.
Just look at the posts above and below yours.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 06, 2023, 10:33:37 AM
Imagine claiming you were part of a movement supporting women's rights, only to then line up and tell cis-gendered Female athletes that they have to just deal with it.
Don't start bitching 1A high school girls team, get out there and play that game against that 6 foot 4 inch biological male!! Figure it out, and just deal . . . #blueanon/#blueanongE
Post by: bucket on March 06, 2023, 10:39:01 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Post by: star seed 7 on March 06, 2023, 10:51:11 AM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 10:51:13 AM
I don’t think they would say it is identify that’s the problem, I think they would say it’s the big muscles and longer limbs and stuff, wouldn’t they?I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Post by: OK_Cat on March 06, 2023, 10:53:49 AM
Post by: Justwin on March 06, 2023, 10:54:38 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Nobody is being barred from competition due to their identity. Everyone has the option to compete in a sport regardless of their identity.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 10:56:39 AM
if that's the criteria then i think they would have to set limits for all sports. Oh i'm sorry you're 6'7" that's too tall to play highschool basketball. Your wingspan is 6'6" fingertip to fingertip, you cannot be on the highschool swimming team.I don’t think they would say it is identify that’s the problem, I think they would say it’s the big muscles and longer limbs and stuff, wouldn’t they?I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Post by: bucket on March 06, 2023, 10:57:10 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Nobody is being barred from competition due to their identity. Everyone has the option to compete in a sport regardless of their identity.
Poor wording perhaps. "How they choose to identify."
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 06, 2023, 10:59:12 AM
just when i think that fentynol will take over as the #1 boogieman for the MAGA, this topic keeps fighting back.
From a member of a movement who coined the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and today quite literally meltsdown at even the slightest whiff of a challenge to the #blueanon dogma. :thumbsup:
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 11:02:26 AM
Actually, that seems like a great solution. Like a 6 foot and under league.if that's the criteria then i think they would have to set limits for all sports. Oh i'm sorry you're 6'7" that's too tall to play highschool basketball. Your wingspan is 6'6" fingertip to fingertip, you cannot be on the highschool swimming team.I don’t think they would say it is identify that’s the problem, I think they would say it’s the big muscles and longer limbs and stuff, wouldn’t they?I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Post by: CHONGS on March 06, 2023, 11:03:17 AM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 11:04:38 AM
Post by: OK_Cat on March 06, 2023, 11:10:22 AM
just when i think that fentynol will take over as the #1 boogieman for the MAGA, this topic keeps fighting back.
From a member of a movement who coined the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and today quite literally meltsdown at even the slightest whiff of a challenge to the #blueanon dogma. :thumbsup:
Show us on a doll where the transgendered person touched you, Dax
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 11:10:40 AM
However, as European American man who is under 6 feet but taller than Tom Cruise, I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for the folks who complain about unfairness due to others having more physical gifts.
pete i bet you and i would absolute wreck shop in basketball if not for the 'clams of the world just swatting every layup back in our faces despite the fact that we otherwise executed that layup with impeccable fundamentals. Like i used my body and my angle of attack to put maximal distance between the ball and the defender he should not be allowed (or physically capable, if i'm being honest) to swat that beauty out of the air midflight. like are we playing basketball or barbarianball?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 11:14:28 AM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 11:16:11 AM
When I play against people who are shorter than me I usually win. When they are shorter, slower, and can’t jump as high, I dominate. DOMINATE!However, as European American man who is under 6 feet but taller than Tom Cruise, I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for the folks who complain about unfairness due to others having more physical gifts.
pete i bet you and i would absolute wreck shop in basketball if not for the 'clams of the world just swatting every layup back in our faces despite the fact that we otherwise executed that layup with impeccable fundamentals. Like i used my body and my angle of attack to put maximal distance between the ball and the defender he should not be allowed (or physically capable, if i'm being honest) to swat that beauty out of the air midflight. like are we playing basketball or barbarianball?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 11:25:29 AM
When I play against people who are shorter than me I usually win. When they are shorter, slower, and can’t jump as high, I dominate. DOMINATE!However, as European American man who is under 6 feet but taller than Tom Cruise, I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for the folks who complain about unfairness due to others having more physical gifts.
pete i bet you and i would absolute wreck shop in basketball if not for the 'clams of the world just swatting every layup back in our faces despite the fact that we otherwise executed that layup with impeccable fundamentals. Like i used my body and my angle of attack to put maximal distance between the ball and the defender he should not be allowed (or physically capable, if i'm being honest) to swat that beauty out of the air midflight. like are we playing basketball or barbarianball?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/XedlfvtiYgrGByude7/200w.gif?cid=82a1493b1zsbqqtt7tpxiray9uswndfqu4xzao7w23ypmhmh&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 11:37:36 AM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 12:00:24 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 12:04:06 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
This feels a bit like "any gun control law will lead to them rounding up our guns!"
Post by: Spracne on March 06, 2023, 12:15:33 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
This feels a bit like "any gun control law will lead to them rounding up our guns!"
You mean one of the most successful marketing ploys of all time? Seems like it's been incredibly effective.
Post by: _33 on March 06, 2023, 12:18:37 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
But what if it's just saying they shouldn't compete against biological women in sports?
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 12:19:32 PM
We're pretty far apart @michigancat, but I'm curious if you see any scenario in our society where people should be segregated by sex or sex assigned at birth or whatever, instead of gender identity.
Yes, there are plenty of scenarios where this makes sense or is necessary. What do you think of this scenario?
Quote
a compromise that would outright ban trans women who’ve gone through a testosterone-driven puberty from competing in college, professional, and Olympic sports in exchange for social acceptance and legal protections in education, employment, housing, public accommodations, health care, etc. for trans people
https://www.readtpa.com/p/lia-thomas-transgender-athletes
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
This feels a bit like "any gun control law will lead to them rounding up our guns!"
It might be! FWIW I would trade any gun control law for protection of trans rights (similar to the above scenario).
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 12:21:37 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
But what if it's just saying they shouldn't compete against biological women in sports?
that's a cute scenario except after the bills banning trans girls in sports passed, the bills banning trans health care started. And now you have people saying they just shouldn't exist at all at the leading republican conference.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 12:21:51 PM
We're pretty far apart @michigancat, but I'm curious if you see any scenario in our society where people should be segregated by sex or sex assigned at birth or whatever, instead of gender identity.
Yes, there are plenty of scenarios where this makes sense or is necessary. What do you think of this scenario?Quotea compromise that would outright ban trans women who’ve gone through a testosterone-driven puberty from competing in college, professional, and Olympic sports in exchange for social acceptance and legal protections in education, employment, housing, public accommodations, health care, etc. for trans people
https://www.readtpa.com/p/lia-thomas-transgender-athletesI'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
This feels a bit like "any gun control law will lead to them rounding up our guns!"
It might be! FWIW I would trade any gun control law for protection of trans rights (similar to the above scenario).
Let me read that article and get back to you.
Post by: _33 on March 06, 2023, 12:26:45 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
But what if it's just saying they shouldn't compete against biological women in sports?
that's a cute scenario except after the bills banning trans girls in sports passed, the bills banning trans health care started. And now you have people saying they just shouldn't exist at the leading republican conference.
Are you talking about regulations on 'gender-affirming care' for minors? Seems misleading to call that 'banning trans health care'.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 01:12:03 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 01:28:39 PM
I think sports leagues should be able to set the requirements for who can and cannot compete in men's and women's sports. I don't understand all of the small government people getting up in arms with the government over a trans swimmer instead of boycotting the NCAA until the rules change.
By that argument you could say "the government shouldn't have imposed Title IX on colleges"
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 01:32:09 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 01:40:04 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.
I betcha there are quite a few who are scared their daughter will not land a softball scholarship to a local juco, etc. That's not an excuse for their behavior (or even reasonable), but it's an explanation for some of their behavior.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 01:41:44 PM
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 01:42:59 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.
you're projecting a pretty sinister hidden agenda
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 01:43:57 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.
I betcha there are quite a few who are scared their daughter will not land a softball scholarship to a local juco, etc. That's not an excuse for their behavior (or even reasonable), but it's an explanation for some of their behavior.
Nah, reason or logic doesn't dictate this is anywhere within the realm of possibility, everyone knows the participation rates of trans girls is incredibly low. We shouldn't provide them excuses to soft pedal bigotry.
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 01:47:02 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.
I betcha there are quite a few who are scared their daughter will not land a softball scholarship to a local juco, etc. That's not an excuse for their behavior (or even reasonable), but it's an explanation for some of their behavior.
Nah, reason or logic doesn't dictate this is anywhere within the realm of possibility, everyone knows the participation rates of trans girls is incredibly low. We shouldn't provide them excuses to soft pedal bigotry.
I agree with you, but this topic does seem like a hill those necks will die on, doesn't it?
Post by: Spracne on March 06, 2023, 01:51:21 PM
I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 01:52:24 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.
you're projecting a pretty sinister hidden agenda
cf3, you should just keep "asking questions" about this issue, the estimated 600ish trans girls, most of them non varsity, participating in high school and middle school athletics nationwide. Clearly the biggest threat to the hundreds of thousands other girls. Equal funding of girls sports clearly solved.
I bet the save women's sports people are also outraged that Brittney Griner and other United States Olympians had to play our sport in Russia to make a decent living.
You're right, I'm wrong.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 01:54:42 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 01:55:20 PM
Post by: OK_Cat on March 06, 2023, 02:06:14 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 02:10:30 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 02:14:28 PM
I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 02:15:07 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 02:18:43 PM
I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.
But what if it's just saying they shouldn't compete against biological women in sports?
that's a cute scenario except after the bills banning trans girls in sports passed, the bills banning trans health care started. And now you have people saying they just shouldn't exist at the leading republican conference.
Are you talking about regulations on 'gender-affirming care' for minors? Seems misleading to call that 'banning trans health care'.
no I'm referring to things like Oklahoma HB 2177 that bans gender affirming care for anyone under 26 (not just minors) and prohibits insurance coverage for gender transition services performed within Oklahoma on any minor or adult.
https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-house-passes-hb-2177-gender-transition-services-minors-ban/43123692
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 02:20:32 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
being pro-democracy would be a big one
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 02:23:02 PM
Think Kasich or McCain vs the maga crowd
Post by: OK_Cat on March 06, 2023, 02:25:12 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
whatever helps you sleep at night :dunno:
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 02:25:49 PM
Post by: DQ12 on March 06, 2023, 02:27:06 PM
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what can you do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play approach. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 02:27:19 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
being pro-democracy would be a big one
That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 02:28:55 PM
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Post by: DQ12 on March 06, 2023, 02:33:02 PM
I mean, yeah. It's all anecdotal. I agree with you that the instances are rare.I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 02:33:21 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
being pro-democracy would be a big one
That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling
dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 02:34:06 PM
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
Post by: _33 on March 06, 2023, 02:36:56 PM
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
I'm guessing a lot of people are fine with all that but would draw the line at Girls get beaten by other girls because they are biologically male. Seems like a sensible place to draw the line.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 02:38:00 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
being pro-democracy would be a big one
That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling
dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info
Thanks for the answers. You don't know about the supreme court eliminating the voting rights act and conservatives roundly supporting it?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1026457264/1965-voting-rights-act-supreme-court-john-lewis
Post by: DQ12 on March 06, 2023, 02:47:48 PM
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further. Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for. But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem. Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap. It's just not worth it. That's where I wound up.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 02:52:44 PM
I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
To be fair, there aren't enough trans athletes competing to have any actual data. It's impossible to know if that trans swimmer was winning because she's really good or if it's because the hormone standards weren't set where they should be.
Post by: kim carnes on March 06, 2023, 02:55:41 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
Good grief, you are the worst
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 02:58:24 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
being pro-democracy would be a big one
That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling
dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info
Thanks for the answers. You don't know about the supreme court eliminating the voting rights act and conservatives roundly supporting it?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1026457264/1965-voting-rights-act-supreme-court-john-lewis
Kinda forgot about that TBH. Yeah I'm in favor of bringing that back.
Post by: catastrophe on March 06, 2023, 03:09:22 PM
In my mind at least, the defining characteristic of a MAGA is their refusal/inability to independently evaluate a political position. They’ve predetermined that they’re going to go with whatever the tribe says and don’t give a damn whether that ends up being different than what they believed 1, 2, or 5 years ago.seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
Folks like CF3 and DQ are definitely conservatives but they approach issues from the perspective of actual good faith debate rather than blind parroting like the Daxes or wackys of the world.
Post by: DQ12 on March 06, 2023, 03:10:52 PM
Folks like CF3 and DQ are definitely conservatives but they approach issues from the perspective of actual good faith debate rather than blind parroting like the Daxes or wackys of the world.i'm not really debating the substance of this fwiw. i am "beyond."
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 03:26:35 PM
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further. Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for. But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem. Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap. It's just not worth it. That's where I wound up.
DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.
The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 03:28:25 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
Good grief, you are the worst
Luckily cf3 is an adult, capable of answering for what he posted. You're the moron incapable of justifying what they posted, he doesn't need whatever the hell this is you're trying to do.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 03:35:44 PM
seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
being pro-democracy would be a big one
That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling
dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info
Thanks for the answers. You don't know about the supreme court eliminating the voting rights act and conservatives roundly supporting it?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1026457264/1965-voting-rights-act-supreme-court-john-lewis
Kinda forgot about that TBH. Yeah I'm in favor of bringing that back.
Thank you again, appreciate the candor. Is there anything pre January 6th that you can identify as a policy difference between today's conservative and maga? I'll say, to me, the difference, aside from the true conservatives rejecting authoritarianism, really seems just seems like packaging. All of these conservative governors seem to be lock step with maga talking points when prioritizing current policy, all of which seem to be addressing fighting on the front line of social wars and not anything actually making them lives of Americans better.
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 03:37:23 PM
I’d say the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity would agree that there is a difference between a MAGA and a conservative.seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
Post by: _33 on March 06, 2023, 03:46:41 PM
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further. Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for. But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem. Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap. It's just not worth it. That's where I wound up.
DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.
The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?
You're arguing that high school boys, on average, aren't bigger, stronger, and more athletic than high school girls? I'm not going to argue about this any more because I hate arguing, especially on the internet, but that seems like an insane statement to make.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 06, 2023, 03:47:36 PM
just when i think that fentynol will take over as the #1 boogieman for the MAGA, this topic keeps fighting back.
From a member of a movement who coined the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and today quite literally meltsdown at even the slightest whiff of a challenge to the #blueanon dogma. :thumbsup:
Show us on a doll where the transgendered person touched you, Dax
Tapout accepted
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 03:50:15 PM
I’d say the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity would agree that there is a difference between a MAGA and a conservative.seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.
I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.
I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
Well, I'd say conservatives are very much losing the party because there is very little fiscal policy discussions that are happening in republican state houses and governor's mansions throughout the country. Both of these groups are seemingly backing politicians responsible for blurring that line. For all of their money, they don't seem all that interested in using it to take their party back. In the current Iowa legislative session, 47 bills have been proposed 6 of those 47 are fiscal conservative tent pole issues. I know the ratio is similar in places like Kentucky, Florida, Texas, South Carolina, etc as the governor's and legislators in these states are using the same lobbyists and think tanks.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 03:50:44 PM
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further. Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for. But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem. Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap. It's just not worth it. That's where I wound up.
DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.
The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?
You're arguing that high school boys, on average, aren't bigger, stronger, and more athletic than high school girls? I'm not going to argue about this any more because I hate arguing, especially on the internet, but that seems like an insane statement to make.
Good. Thanks.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 03:53:36 PM
And this isn't me calling you a bigot, fwiw! I think a very natural part of the human condition is to fear things we don't like or don't understand. and that's okay! It takes a lot of work to break yourself from that kind of thinking. There's only like maybe one person on this entire blog who was just born naturally blessed with the absolute correct perspective on all manner of things at all times always since the history of ever, but for everyone else it takes effort to check your biases.
And hey man, i'll put myself out there as an example of how i am very much imperfect in my biases. As much as I would love for all homelessness, crime, drug addiction, etc. to be gone in this country...if i'm being honest, I don't really want any of those solutions to be in my neighborhood. And i feel bad for saying that, but like, honestly i do fall into the NIMBY crowd (and i would bet that most ppl reading this thread are probably the same way, like, inject them with truth serum and then ask if they really want a convicted pedophile moving in down the street, i bet i can tell you what the answer is).
I guess what i'm getting at - is that when it comes to legitimate reasons that any sort of legislation should be passed, there is just no logical reason whatosever that this should be a topic. The amount of people "victimized" by trans athletes being allowed to participate, the "risks" of allowing trans people to continue to participate - on literally any other subject this would not even so much as get a hearing because it has such a low stakes impact on a statistically irrelevant amount of people.
So if that's the case, then you have to ask yourself why is it so important to you? If its because you struggle with the idea of someone being trans, if you find it kind of yucky, or if quite simply put you don't understand it and you would just rather not have to see it or deal with it, you wouldn't be alone. Lots of people feel that way.
But then that's where you have to do the whole moral reckoning thing and ask yourself "is me being grossed out or uncomfortable with something a good enough reason for it to be outlawed?"
Post by: Spracne on March 06, 2023, 04:05:51 PM
There's only like maybe one person on this entire blog who was just born naturally blessed with the absolute correct perspective on all manner of things at all times always since the history of ever, but for everyone else it takes effort to check your biases.
:blush:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 06, 2023, 04:06:25 PM
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further. Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for. But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.I don't think it's insincere in every aspect. I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair. Is it rare situation? Sure, relatively speaking. Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored? Seems like a bad rule of thumb.I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.
We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.
Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.
You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?
All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play. But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it. CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.
You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?
Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?
Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem. Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap. It's just not worth it. That's where I wound up.
DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.
The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?
You're arguing that high school boys, on average, aren't bigger, stronger, and more athletic than high school girls? I'm not going to argue about this any more because I hate arguing, especially on the internet, but that seems like an insane statement to make.
He's a complete lunatic, don't bother.
(https://i.imgflip.com/7diahw.jpg)
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 06, 2023, 04:08:37 PM
Go Cats!
Post by: Trim on March 06, 2023, 04:11:14 PM
Post by: DQ12 on March 06, 2023, 04:13:47 PM
DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.Yeah I guess we reach the same result for different reasons. From what I've read, boys tend to have a significant athletic advantage over girls in sports beginning at about puberty (12-13) and widening and plateauing at 18. To me, I think that's an unfair advantage (that, for whatever reason, we haven't traditionally accepted like we have for other unfair advantages (money, height etc.)). So it strikes me as facially unfair. But I also don't think it's worth going into some hugely complicated (and potentially) invasive solutions to stop the unfair advantage. Especially when comes to athletes who are under 18 and the situation is ultra rare.
The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?
Post by: Spracne on March 06, 2023, 04:31:08 PM
This debate is good in that it has dax making memes.
(https://png.pngtree.com/png-clipart/20210801/original/pngtree-cute-cartoon-learning-full-score-happy-emoji-emoji-png-image_6599600.jpg)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 04:55:21 PM
CF3 i am willing to believe that you are approaching this from a good faith perspective, so i think maybe what needs to happen is a little introspection. Have you stopped to ask yourself, why do i care about this? Why am i so supportive of laws or rules that are keeping a certain group of people from being able to participate? You have piped up in this thread on several occasions about this topic of transwomen being allowed to participate in women's sports, but i've noticed you haven't expressed any sort of opinion about the laws that have already been passed, or the laws that are republican lawmakers are currently trying to pass in this country, that would essentially make it illegal (or exceedingly difficult) to be a trans person.
And this isn't me calling you a bigot, fwiw! I think a very natural part of the human condition is to fear things we don't like or don't understand. and that's okay! It takes a lot of work to break yourself from that kind of thinking. There's only like maybe one person on this entire blog who was just born naturally blessed with the absolute correct perspective on all manner of things at all times always since the history of ever, but for everyone else it takes effort to check your biases.
And hey man, i'll put myself out there as an example of how i am very much imperfect in my biases. As much as I would love for all homelessness, crime, drug addiction, etc. to be gone in this country...if i'm being honest, I don't really want any of those solutions to be in my neighborhood. And i feel bad for saying that, but like, honestly i do fall into the NIMBY crowd (and i would bet that most ppl reading this thread are probably the same way, like, inject them with truth serum and then ask if they really want a convicted pedophile moving in down the street, i bet i can tell you what the answer is).
I guess what i'm getting at - is that when it comes to legitimate reasons that any sort of legislation should be passed, there is just no logical reason whatosever that this should be a topic. The amount of people "victimized" by trans athletes being allowed to participate, the "risks" of allowing trans people to continue to participate - on literally any other subject this would not even so much as get a hearing because it has such a low stakes impact on a statistically irrelevant amount of people.
So if that's the case, then you have to ask yourself why is it so important to you? If its because you struggle with the idea of someone being trans, if you find it kind of yucky, or if quite simply put you don't understand it and you would just rather not have to see it or deal with it, you wouldn't be alone. Lots of people feel that way.
But then that's where you have to do the whole moral reckoning thing and ask yourself "is me being grossed out or uncomfortable with something a good enough reason for it to be outlawed?"
I am unclear what question I am being asked.
Are you asking my opinions on laws regarding minors in terms of health care, or a particular state law? Or are you asking my opinion on laws proposed or voted on regarding sports? Or are you asking if I find this topic yucky?
That was kind of a word salad without a clear landing zone to respond.
Happy to answer or engage, but you need to narrow a bit.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 05:04:18 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 05:09:37 PM
i'm asking about trans women being allowed to participate in womens sports. I think we can all agree its such a narrow topic, why should there be laws against it?
Gotcha. I'm not sure I'm in favor of a law. Laws have weird unintended consequences.
Like, there's not a law saying a 16 year old can't compete in a 12u baseball tournament (at least I think that's not a law) but it's more a societal value. It doesn't get enforced by the law (I think, perhaps I'm mistaken) but we all kind of agree that yeah, it's not cool to do that and individual youth leagues and junk do their best to make sure kids are in the right division and junk.
Maybe at the KSHAA level its on the books somewhere? Again, not really sure.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 05:11:43 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 05:33:24 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 05:36:47 PM
But I think the point you are trying to make is about fairness. It’s not fair for a 15 year old to play in a 13U league. Ok. But physical development is pretty much a linear function of time at that age. 15 year olds are going to be more developed than 13 year olds. But as has been adjudicated in this thread, it’s not so linear when it comes to males and females. From hormone levels to muscular or skeletal development you can’t really just say boys are more X than girls. Throw in puberty blockers and it gets even more muddy.
And that tracks, bc otherwise every trans woman that has ever completed would beat the brakes off the competition, and every trans male would get obliterated, and that just isn’t how it happens.
So, what’s the problem?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 05:52:36 PM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 05:56:54 PM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 05:57:31 PM
BAC no one is saying ALL BOYS are strong and faster than ALL GIRLS.
Macenroe once said that any given boys state champ from Connecticut could beat the williams sisters.
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 05:58:56 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 06:07:22 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 06, 2023, 06:18:35 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 06:35:41 PM
Also I officiate baseball games and I'll show up to a 13U game and let me tell you, its the honor system. I have no idea if any kid is on the right roster or actually 13 or any of that, I just say play ball and call balls and strikes.
I think the difference between a 15 year old cis boy and a 13 year old trans boy playing in that game is there is a place for the 15 year old cis boy to play in.
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 07:05:32 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 06, 2023, 07:15:45 PM
Where do you guys think our country’s challenges with trans issues rank in overall divisiveness and controversy when compared to our country’s past issues with homosexuality, interracial relationships, female workplace discrimination, desegregation, and women’s suffrage?I don't think you can compare issues of different eras. I will say that I think the anti-trans laws conservatives have been passing is the most hateful, unnecessarily cruel movement in America today. I won't ever vote for anyone that supports this crap. (I also wouldn't vote for a politician who wants to restrict abortion access, but that doesn't seem quite as cruel to me as it might to others).
Not sure if tweets are working now but this sums it up well
https://twitter.com/calebsaysthings/status/1545212109490757633
Post by: Spracne on March 06, 2023, 07:21:34 PM
Where do you guys think our country’s challenges with trans issues rank in overall divisiveness and controversy when compared to our country’s past issues with homosexuality, interracial relationships, female workplace discrimination, desegregation, and women’s suffrage?I don't think you can compare issues of different eras. I will say that I think the anti-trans laws conservatives have been passing is the most hateful, unnecessarily cruel movement in America today. I won't ever vote for anyone that supports this crap. (I also wouldn't vote for a politician who wants to restrict abortion access is also bad, but doesn't seem quite as cruel to me as it might to others).
Not sure if tweets are working now but this sums it up well
https://twitter.com/calebsaysthings/status/1545212109490757633
You summed up my thoughts pretty well. It's not really possible to weigh historical contagions across generations, with the obvious exception of slavery and its vestiges, which do include miscegeny and segregation, so I would put those two first and then a bunch of ???? after that.
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 07:32:02 PM
Homosexuality was a big one for sure. I remember when people were shocked Ellen was going to kiss another woman on TV, and years before that when Elton John came out. There was a lot of outcry at first.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 07:32:31 PM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 07:37:33 PM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 07:38:34 PM
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2023, 07:39:07 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 08:55:17 PM
I would probably be in favor of laws for prisons remaining single sex
Oh, man. I get the sentiment, but I think there probably is a lot less abuse and rape sending trans women to women's prison than putting them in with men.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 08:56:15 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 06, 2023, 09:01:01 PM
Why would you say that? Are male prisoners violent?
About half of them get sexually assaulted outside of prison, and our prisons don't exactly have a good reputation there.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 09:28:35 PM
Where do you guys think our country’s challenges with trans issues rank in overall divisiveness and controversy when compared to our country’s past issues with homosexuality, interracial relationships, female workplace discrimination, desegregation, and women’s suffrage?I don't think you can compare issues of different eras. I will say that I think the anti-trans laws conservatives have been passing is the most hateful, unnecessarily cruel movement in America today. I won't ever vote for anyone that supports this crap. (I also wouldn't vote for a politician who wants to restrict abortion access is also bad, but doesn't seem quite as cruel to me as it might to others).
Not sure if tweets are working now but this sums it up well
https://twitter.com/calebsaysthings/status/1545212109490757633
You summed up my thoughts pretty well. It's not really possible to weigh historical contagions across generations, with the obvious exception of slavery and its vestiges, which do include miscegeny and segregation, so I would put those two first and then a bunch of ???? after that.
As with all things, I think it depends on what sort of outcome you hope to achieve. If one’s intention is to stand up and be counted on the right side of history, then tweets like that from our friend Caleb Hearon are an effective way of drawing a line in the sand, and declaring your Allyship in no uncertain terms.
If you want to try to capture hearts and minds, unequivocally declaring us vs them for those who do not share your ideology probably won’t get you very far in achieving that end. And I think in most cases you can have a pretty good sense if people are open to having their minds changed. Lots of the time, those folks are just looking to further galvanize their point of view. I wasn’t sure where CF3 was on this one, although I’m getting the sense that he is more open minded (to discovering new ways to reinforce his current position)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 06, 2023, 09:32:27 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 06, 2023, 09:58:15 PM
Where do you guys think our country’s challenges with trans issues rank in overall divisiveness and controversy when compared to our country’s past issues with homosexuality, interracial relationships, female workplace discrimination, desegregation, and women’s suffrage?I don't think you can compare issues of different eras. I will say that I think the anti-trans laws conservatives have been passing is the most hateful, unnecessarily cruel movement in America today. I won't ever vote for anyone that supports this crap. (I also wouldn't vote for a politician who wants to restrict abortion access, but that doesn't seem quite as cruel to me as it might to others).
Not sure if tweets are working now but this sums it up well
https://twitter.com/calebsaysthings/status/1545212109490757633
Just pinned this.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 06, 2023, 10:10:56 PM
Like as far as I know I’ve never met you IRL but you seem like a genuine, rational and kind person, and I’m pretty sure that you and I would get along just fine if we were to ever hang out…and for those reasons I’m trying to listen to your perspective because I don’t think you’re just a hate spewing bigot.
I’m hoping that what’s going on here, is that you know deep down in your heart that you are just a conservative by nature, and you also acknowledge that there is no room in the current Republican Party for any sort of compassion or humanity for trans people (I say this based on how they vote for legislation), so you are trying to find some justification for that point of view bc at the end of the day you aren’t going to change your vote and thus you realize that your are actively standing up to be counted with those who would happily snuff out the entire portion of the population. I would probably be doing the exact same thing if I was in your shoes, and good on you for at least taking a good hard look at it instead of just pretending it’s not a thing
Post by: DaBigTrain on March 06, 2023, 10:22:54 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 07, 2023, 06:29:07 AM
Sorry CF3, that was a low blow, and I apologize. Got on a little bit of a roll there. I guess I just haven’t seen you making much of an argument in support of your point of view, unless your point of view is just simply “I realize that banning trans women from competing in women’s sports will benefit a very small population, and I realize it will have a much more profound negative effect on an already at-risk and marginalized group of people, and I’m okay with that because…reasons”
Like as far as I know I’ve never met you IRL but you seem like a genuine, rational and kind person, and I’m pretty sure that you and I would get along just fine if we were to ever hang out…and for those reasons I’m trying to listen to your perspective because I don’t think you’re just a hate spewing bigot.
I’m hoping that what’s going on here, is that you know deep down in your heart that you are just a conservative by nature, and you also acknowledge that there is no room in the current Republican Party for any sort of compassion or humanity for trans people (I say this based on how they vote for legislation), so you are trying to find some justification for that point of view bc at the end of the day you aren’t going to change your vote and thus you realize that your are actively standing up to be counted with those who would happily snuff out the entire portion of the population. I would probably be doing the exact same thing if I was in your shoes, and good on you for at least taking a good hard look at it instead of just pretending it’s not a thing
I haven’t voted for a republican in over a decade bro
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 06:35:10 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 07, 2023, 06:36:23 AM
Who have you voted for?
For what office? President or like congress or on the local level?
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 06:38:37 AM
Let's just start with the last 3 presidential and Congressional electionsWho have you voted for?
For what office? President or like congress or on the local level?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 07, 2023, 06:44:45 AM
16 i think i was still a registered pub and voted for Kasich in the primary (i think, not 100%). Evan McMullen in the general
20 Biden
Congress oh boy. Now that i think of it i probs voted for a pub in 12 or 14, i honestly don’t remember. 16 i refused to vote for someone who endorsed trump so i left a lot blank.
Moved from MO to KS in august of 18 and didn’t register before those midterms. In 20 i voted for Sharice and Bollier, but considered Marshall.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 07, 2023, 06:47:03 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 07, 2023, 06:49:15 AM
Post by: CHONGS on March 07, 2023, 07:13:51 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 07:23:44 AM
It’s interesting how dogmatic this place is. It’s almost like there’s an assumption- you’re all on one side of the other. Like, there’s such an ingrained “us vs them” mindset.This place being America or goEMAW.com? IMO in both places there's more nuance than you think.
Post by: Kat Kid on March 07, 2023, 07:39:04 AM
Can boys play softball or volleyball in KSHAA?I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Nobody is being barred from competition due to their identity. Everyone has the option to compete in a sport regardless of their identity.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 07, 2023, 07:59:49 AM
It’s interesting how dogmatic this place is. It’s almost like there’s an assumption- you’re all on one side of the other. Like, there’s such an ingrained “us vs them” mindset.This place being America or goEMAW.com? IMO in both places there's more nuance than you think.
Was referring to GE, but you’re probably right
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 08:13:43 AM
Post by: Pete on March 07, 2023, 08:20:38 AM
I believe the answer is No.Can boys play softball or volleyball in KSHAA?I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.
IMO, "save women's sports" doesn't lead to eradication rather it leads to further marginalization. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution, but I cannot accept barring people from competition due to their identity.
Nobody is being barred from competition due to their identity. Everyone has the option to compete in a sport regardless of their identity.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 07, 2023, 08:27:50 AM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
I really don't have an issue with higher level athletics banning trans athletes, because I'd understand if they feel maintaining competitive integrity is more important than inclusiveness. I'd rather they be allowed to participate at the high school level and below, though. It's really weird to me that the Olympics will ban an entire country from competition out of suspicion of doping, but allow a biological male to compete with women, as long as she is doped in the way they prescribe. I'd lean toward banning them to preserve the integrity of the competition and all of the world records, but I also don't really have a problem with them competing as long as the Olympics is making that decision.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 08:37:26 AM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 07, 2023, 08:45:05 AM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
Post by: CHONGS on March 07, 2023, 08:54:48 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 07, 2023, 09:02:02 AM
It’s interesting how dogmatic this place is. It’s almost like there’s an assumption- you’re all on one side of the other. Like, there’s such an ingrained “us vs them” mindset.
if you listen to Dax, that's exactly how it is. We are all Siths, only dealing in absolutes. While my ideology most closely aligns with the libs, i will be the first to admit they do a lot of crap (or in many cases don't do) that i find just horrid. And from the standpoint of needing a moral reckoning, i suppose i'm lucky in that in my adult life the libs haven't stood for anything that i just cannot endorse.
When it comes to voting though...i kind of look at it like 15 people on a bus trying to decide where to go. If the choices are "pizza" or "drive off a cliff" and 5 people have already voted to drive off the cliff, I'm not going to abstain from voting b/c i'd rather get ice cream, ya know?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 07, 2023, 09:35:12 AM
It’s interesting how dogmatic this place is. It’s almost like there’s an assumption- you’re all on one side of the other. Like, there’s such an ingrained “us vs them” mindset.
if you listen to Dax, that's exactly how it is. We are all Siths, only dealing in absolutes. While my ideology most closely aligns with the libs, i will be the first to admit they do a lot of crap (or in many cases don't do) that i find just horrid. And from the standpoint of needing a moral reckoning, i suppose i'm lucky in that in my adult life the libs haven't stood for anything that i just cannot endorse.
When it comes to voting though...i kind of look at it like 15 people on a bus trying to decide where to go. If the choices are "pizza" or "drive off a cliff" and 5 people have already voted to drive off the cliff, I'm not going to abstain from voting b/c i'd rather get ice cream, ya know?
#blueanongE is hyper dogmatic, and only uses "common ground" when they're embarrassed about what one of their own is doing, and that's just a way to re-direct and change the subject.
It's just fascinating to me watch some talk about this issue as though it's a human rights issue when they're demanding that one side be completely silenced and if they say anything at all to stick up for themselves they are labeled bigots and anti-trans . . . silence terf bitch!! It is quite apparent the trans-rights, at least in some domains, supersedes the rights of cis-gendered females.
The cis-gendered female must stay silent when a biological male enters and dwells in their most intimate and private of spaces. The trans female is to always be believed and listened to, the cis-gendered female is a liar and anti-tran.
The cis-gendered female must accept and remain silent when a human that in the vast majority of cases is teeming with male hormones competes against them on the field of play. The cis-gendered female must stay silent when the biological male takes their place on the podium, or prevents them from qualifying for the next round. The cis-gendered females dreams and aspirations must take a back seat to trans-rights at all times. In the case of this blog, it is cis-gendered males making these declarations, making these demands, and applying labels. :thumbsup:
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 11:26:45 AM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Post by: catastrophe on March 07, 2023, 11:28:26 AM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.If you’re talking about participation in sports under the umbrella of “trans rights” then this seems a bit insincere. There is plenty of nuance to be had in balancing inclusion and fair competition. Several sports already place limits on acceptable hormone levels completely independent of gender.
Obviously most ITT recognize that those calling for “fairness” in women’s sports are doing so as part of a broader campaign to ostracize trans people. But I don’t think you should assume that is true for everyone willing to engage in the conversation about sports.
Post by: LickNeckey on March 07, 2023, 11:46:05 AM
It’s interesting how dogmatic this place is. It’s almost like there’s an assumption- you’re all on one side of the other. Like, there’s such an ingrained “us vs them” mindset.
if you listen to Dax, that's exactly how it is. We are all Siths, only dealing in absolutes. While my ideology most closely aligns with the libs, i will be the first to admit they do a lot of crap (or in many cases don't do) that i find just horrid. And from the standpoint of needing a moral reckoning, i suppose i'm lucky in that in my adult life the libs haven't stood for anything that i just cannot endorse.
When it comes to voting though...i kind of look at it like 15 people on a bus trying to decide where to go. If the choices are "pizza" or "drive off a cliff" and 5 people have already voted to drive off the cliff, I'm not going to abstain from voting b/c i'd rather get ice cream, ya know?
#blueanongE is hyper dogmatic, and only uses "common ground" when they're embarrassed about what one of their own is doing, and that's just a way to re-direct and change the subject.
It's just fascinating to me watch some talk about this issue as though it's a human rights issue when they're demanding that one side be completely silenced and if they say anything at all to stick up for themselves they are labeled bigots and anti-trans . . . silence terf bitch!! It is quite apparent the trans-rights, at least in some domains, supersedes the rights of cis-gendered females.
The cis-gendered female must stay silent when a biological male enters and dwells in their most intimate and private of spaces. The trans female is to always be believed and listened to, the cis-gendered female is a liar and anti-tran.
The cis-gendered female must accept and remain silent when a human that in the vast majority of cases is teeming with male hormones competes against them on the field of play. The cis-gendered female must stay silent when the biological male takes their place on the podium, or prevents them from qualifying for the next round. The cis-gendered females dreams and aspirations must take a back seat to trans-rights at all times. In the case of this blog, it is cis-gendered males making these declarations, making these demands, and applying labels. :thumbsup:
Rushian Identitiy Politics have broken his brain and he is only able to see anything Left of his viewpoint as a singular nebulous other that is in lockstep belief
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 11:49:27 AM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.
No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.
If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 11:53:10 AM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.If you%u2019re talking about participation in sports under the umbrella of %u201Ctrans rights%u201D then this seems a bit insincere. There is plenty of nuance to be had in balancing inclusion and fair competition. Several sports already place limits on acceptable hormone levels completely independent of gender.
Obviously most ITT recognize that those calling for %u201Cfairness%u201D in women%u2019s sports are doing so as part of a broader campaign to ostracize trans people. But I don%u2019t think you should assume that is true for everyone willing to engage in the conversation about sports.
A legislative ban of trans kids participating in youth sports is a non-starter for me. The competitions at the high school level are publicly funded and have zero "stakes" and these bills are only aimed to eliminate trans folks from society.
If independent organizations with actual stakes (NCAA, Olympics, pro leagues) want to propose regulations of their own in the interest of fairness, especially dealing with how the participant went through puberty, then I'd say there's an opportunity for nuance.
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 12:00:40 PM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.
No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.
If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.
So you don't believe in Title IX, or separating boys and girls sports? Can boys play volleyball in Iowa?
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:12:22 PM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.
No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.
If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.
So you don't believe in Title IX, or separating boys and girls sports? Can boys play volleyball in Iowa?
Of course I believe in Title ix, what does that have to do with trans girls? I have no idea if boys are allowed to participate in volleyball in Iowa. I know there's no state laws preventing them from doing so. Sidenote, I've mentioned this before but Iowa is now the only state in the nation with separate girls and boys activity associations. It's weird. The girls association's courts colors are pink, black, and white. When A girls individual or team wins a state championship, they give them a pepto pink t-shirt. Shits straight out of 1950.
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 12:18:14 PM
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:18:50 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:20:19 PM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.
No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.
If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.
Nobody's rights are being restricted. Nobody is eliminating the ability to participate in sports because of how a person identifies.
Post by: OK_Cat on March 07, 2023, 12:20:58 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
trans girls don't kill people, you miserable $!#*
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:25:22 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
trans girls don't kill people, you miserable $!#*
What's your point?
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:26:32 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Post by: OK_Cat on March 07, 2023, 12:27:51 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
trans girls don't kill people, you miserable $!#*
What's your point?
i feel like i made my point clear, but you have content filtering on to hide the "naughty words."
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:30:01 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:30:16 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
There will very rarely be outrage about girls playing boys sports for obvious reasons.
I do not think boys should be allowed to play girls volleyball, swim on the girls swim teams nor participate in any girls sports.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:31:22 PM
Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.
This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.
No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.
If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.
Nobody's rights are being restricted. Nobody is eliminating the ability to participate in sports because of how a person identifies.
The conversation I said I wouldn't have because it's not made in good faith, this is that conversation.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:31:30 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:37:27 PM
I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
Post by: OK_Cat on March 07, 2023, 12:40:28 PM
I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
You're being nice, MIR. You're a smart guy and can read between the lines as well as I can. The problem is that he doesn't consider trans people to be "real." That's why he immediately goes to guns, and that's why unfortunately this conversation will never go anywhere. He's a miserable $!#*.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:40:53 PM
I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
I agree that the magic number is 1.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:44:40 PM
I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
I agree that the magic number is 1.
Congrats. Now tell us why you're equating people with a piece of metal. When you're doing that make sure you don't switch your illustration up and start talking about the rights of gun owners.
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 12:46:38 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
Post by: OK_Cat on March 07, 2023, 12:48:24 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 07, 2023, 12:50:19 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
SCOTUS has said remarkably little regarding the 2nd amendment since the history of always. It's actually kind of amazing how little they've had to say on it considering it's in the top 10 of the amendments (not 100% sure but i believe it was the 2nd one)
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:50:41 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 12:54:08 PM
I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.Is it a right to play sports?
We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.
Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?
I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.
Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.
SCOTUS has said remarkably little regarding the 2nd amendment since the history of always. It's actually kind of amazing how little they've had to say on it considering it's in the top 10 of the amendments (not 100% sure but i believe it was the 2nd one)
Notice that the words "2nd amendment" never appeared in my post.
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 12:56:03 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
I did too! (late 90's) Not sure what this has to do with my post though. I mean, you know why girls and boys sports are separated right? Hint: it's not to keep girls off the football team.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 12:58:55 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
Yeah, there's no tradition, that's a coping mechanism and even though it's pointed out that he's wrong, he'll stay dug in. In 1989 I played football against girls at Scott City and Liberal. There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977. The first woman to play men's professional baseball happened in 1898.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 01:01:17 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
I did too! (late 90's) Not sure what this has to do with my post though. I mean, you know why girls and boys sports are separated right? Hint: it's not to keep girls off the football team.
Did he not directly address you saying "I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy."?
Post by: Spracne on March 07, 2023, 01:04:49 PM
Quote
Salt Lake City, Utah – Today, the Utah House and Senate overrode Gov. Spencer Cox’s veto of House Bill 11 – a bill that bans transgender students from participating in school sports consistent with their gender identity.
HB 11 was hastily pushed through the Senate and heavily amended on the last night of Utah’s legislative session, with members of leadership in both houses voting against or not voting. In a letter explaining his veto, Gov. Cox cited high suicide rates among transgender youth and added that there are only four transgender students playing high school sports in Utah, and only one playing girls sports.
“Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day,” Gov. Cox wrote in the letter. “Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way.”
Gov. Cox rightly points out the vanishingly small scale of the supposed "problem" and the countervailing ills of the supposed "solution." One trans girl playing girls sports in Utah. Can you imagine how that single person felt at the passage of this law? It veers shockingly close to a bill of attainder, or at least I have to imagine that's how she feels about it. Why is anyone OK with inflicting this kind of psychological damage on a small and marginalized group of human beings?
Full article with link to full letter: https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/breaking-utah-legislature-overrides-gov-coxs-veto-of-anti-trans-sports-ban
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 07, 2023, 01:05:34 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.
Now let's take the next step. (and this is the part where MIR is going to tell me to eff off) but ultimately in the scheme of stuff the american public cares about...nobody really cares about women's sports all that much either. But for the thousandth time literally everybody knows this isn't about fair competition in women's sports. Its about erasure of a group of people. Don't get mad at the audience for not falling for your sleight of hand. Get better at sleight of hand or get a new trick. Everybody has already seen this one.
Post by: DQ12 on March 07, 2023, 01:12:04 PM
There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner! How about that!
Post by: MakeItRain on March 07, 2023, 01:18:26 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.
Now let's take the next step. (and this is the part where MIR is going to tell me to eff off) but ultimately in the scheme of stuff the american public cares about...nobody really cares about women's sports all that much either. But for the thousandth time literally everybody knows this isn't about fair competition in women's sports. Its about erasure of a group of people. Don't get mad at the audience for not falling for your sleight of hand. Get better at sleight of hand or get a new trick. Everybody has already seen this one.
I'm not going to tell you to eff off, it's the fallacy of the save women's sports movement, they don't give a crap about women's sports, if they did it wouldn't need saving.
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 01:39:24 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
I did too! (late 90's) Not sure what this has to do with my post though. I mean, you know why girls and boys sports are separated right? Hint: it's not to keep girls off the football team.
Did he not directly address you saying "I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy."?
I guess you guys don't understand what I'm saying? It's fine, you think I'm a bigoted, ignorant, hate-filled, MAGA redneck. I personally don't think I'm any of those things but alas.
I do agree that the reaction by state legislatures has been disproportionate to the real world occurrences. But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports. And real world examples of women being impacted negatively by that. I don't agree at all that the issue is without nuance or good intentioned people on both sides. That's all.
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 02:05:23 PM
But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports.
Many? At the youth/HS level?
And real world examples of women being impacted negatively by that.
How were they negatively impacted?
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 02:06:39 PM
So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?' By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'
Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.
Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.
Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.
I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good. Guess what? Nobody bitched about it.
Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.
Now let's take the next step. (and this is the part where MIR is going to tell me to eff off) but ultimately in the scheme of stuff the american public cares about...nobody really cares about women's sports all that much either. But for the thousandth time literally everybody knows this isn't about fair competition in women's sports. Its about erasure of a group of people. Don't get mad at the audience for not falling for your sleight of hand. Get better at sleight of hand or get a new trick. Everybody has already seen this one.
I'm not going to tell you to eff off, it's the fallacy of the save women's sports movement, they don't give a crap about women's sports, if they did it wouldn't need saving.
I am not all that worried about women's sports. I do, however, care a great deal about girls sports.
If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.
The traditions of girls playing football, wrestling and playing other boys sports are rooted in the tradition that anyone is allowed to play boys sports and only girls (biological females) are allowed to play girls sports.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 02:08:25 PM
But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports.
Many? At the youth/HS level?
As MIR stated, the magic number associated with this issue is 1. And yes, there is at least one instance of biological males taking away medals in girls sports.
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 02:10:27 PM
If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.
People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 02:13:12 PM
If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.
People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.
I think I meant to say a trans boy playing boys sports. Nobody cares about that.
Post by: DQ12 on March 07, 2023, 02:16:06 PM
Feels like this got passed over. What a piece of trivia.There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner! How about that!
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 07, 2023, 02:17:02 PM
Feels like this got passed over. What a piece of trivia.There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner! How about that!
oscar jenner was drafted into nba in 1977?
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 02:17:36 PM
If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.
People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.
I think I meant to say a trans boy playing boys sports. Nobody cares about that.
There a laws banning exactly that!
Quote
Luc Esquivel, a 14-year-old rising sophomore who lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, just wants to play golf, but he%u2019s banned from competing on the boys%u2019 golf team at his high school.
In March 2021, Gov. Bill Lee signed legislation, which took effect immediately, that requires student athletes to prove the sex they were assigned at birth, either by providing an %u201Coriginal%u201D birth certificate or another form of evidence if the birth certificate is not available.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/nbc-out-proud/transgender-teen-luc-esquivel-suing-tennessee-can-play-golf-rcna28792
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 02:18:51 PM
But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports.
Many? At the youth/HS level?And real world examples of women being impacted negatively by that.
How were they negatively impacted?
Yeah I would say 'many'? I don't know how you define it though. Maybe 'several' would be better?
Um, they lost instead of winning.
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 02:36:57 PM
How were they negatively impacted?
Um, they lost instead of winning.
How would you say that compares to the negative impact of the trans youth banned from participation?
Again, from the Republican governor of Utah who vetoed one of these laws.
Quote
? 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
? 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
? 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
? 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
? 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide
Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids
who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying
to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through
each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what
they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the
research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly.
For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to
work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways
to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1emUTfFEbmNmSdW9UhhsRAseVNr4cPIv9/view
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 02:37:42 PM
If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.
People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.
I think I meant to say a trans boy playing boys sports. Nobody cares about that.
There a laws banning exactly that!QuoteLuc Esquivel, a 14-year-old rising sophomore who lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, just wants to play golf, but he%u2019s banned from competing on the boys%u2019 golf team at his high school.
In March 2021, Gov. Bill Lee signed legislation, which took effect immediately, that requires student athletes to prove the sex they were assigned at birth, either by providing an %u201Coriginal%u201D birth certificate or another form of evidence if the birth certificate is not available.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/nbc-out-proud/transgender-teen-luc-esquivel-suing-tennessee-can-play-golf-rcna28792
That's dumb and I do not agree with that. A trans boy should be allowed to play boys sports.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 07, 2023, 02:41:30 PM
Post by: DQ12 on March 07, 2023, 02:42:46 PM
By the Kansas City Kings no less!Feels like this got passed over. What a piece of trivia.There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner! How about that!
oscar jenner was drafted into nba in 1977?
Post by: Trim on March 07, 2023, 02:49:45 PM
By the Kansas City Kings no less!Feels like this got passed over. What a piece of trivia.There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner! How about that!
oscar jenner was drafted into nba in 1977?
:lol:
Quote
Jenner was also selected by the Kansas City Kings with the 139th overall pick in the seventh round of the 1977 NBA draft despite not having played basketball since high school.[77] The publicity stunt was executed by team president/general manager Joe Axelson to mock the Kansas City Chiefs' yearly claims that they planned on selecting "the best athlete available" in the National Football League Draft. Jenner was presented with a jersey customized with the number 8618, the Olympic gold medal-winning score, but would never appear as an active player with the Kings.[78]
Post by: Trim on March 07, 2023, 02:50:49 PM
http://www.coronadonewsca.com/news/coronado_sports/the-true-story-of-oscar-jenner-s-brief-nba-career/article_66f24284-4b4e-11e5-a128-a3cade9cef14.html
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/coronadonewsca.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/56/7565e69a-4b4e-11e5-924d-0f5b3afb4e42/55dca56d90974.image.jpg)
Post by: _33 on March 07, 2023, 03:06:37 PM
How were they negatively impacted?
Um, they lost instead of winning.
How would you say that compares to the negative impact of the trans youth banned from participation?
I wouldn't presume to say. But telling girls who feel cheated that they need to get over it because if they don't this other person's mental health might suffer seems like a nuanced situation.
Post by: Justwin on March 07, 2023, 03:23:12 PM
Trans boys take banned substances to increase testosterone. Trans girls block hormones. It's really not cut and dry either way. Lots of speculation as to what is fair without much data because trans athletes are not very common.
Well you shouldn't be allowed to take banned substances. But not being able to participate in that case would be for taking banned substances, not because you are trans. I would say a bill that prohibits trans boys from playing boys sports if they're not taking banned substances is dumb.
Post by: Spracne on March 07, 2023, 03:53:54 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 07, 2023, 03:57:54 PM
First of all, this needs to be regulated at the collegiate, olympic, and professional levels, if that's what society wants. We don't need governments regulating at the high school and below levels. Someone give me a convincing reason why I'm wrong.
I don't think the government needs to regulate any of this at any level. Let the individual athletic organizations figure it out.
Post by: michigancat on March 07, 2023, 03:58:49 PM
How were they negatively impacted?
Um, they lost instead of winning.
How would you say that compares to the negative impact of the trans youth banned from participation?
I wouldn't presume to say. But telling girls who feel cheated that they need to get over it because if they don't this other person's mental health might suffer seems like a nuanced situation.
If you think it's a nuanced situation you're presuming quite a bit
Post by: Spracne on March 07, 2023, 04:01:24 PM
First of all, this needs to be regulated at the collegiate, olympic, and professional levels, if that's what society wants. We don't need governments regulating at the high school and below levels. Someone give me a convincing reason why I'm wrong.
I don't think the government needs to regulate any of this at any level. Let the individual athletic organizations figure it out.
Right. I may have been imprecise. In my first sentence, by "regulated," I meant by the governing bodies of those respective associations. In my second sentence, I used the same base verb to refer to government action, so I understand the confusion.
Post by: bucket on March 07, 2023, 09:24:08 PM
Post by: passranch on March 10, 2023, 02:58:22 PM
http://www.coronadonewsca.com/news/coronado_sports/the-true-story-of-oscar-jenner-s-brief-nba-career/article_66f24284-4b4e-11e5-a128-a3cade9cef14.html
I love how that link still works even though the site's profanity filter changed the URL to say Oscar :lol:
Post by: sys on March 10, 2023, 08:26:59 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 11, 2023, 10:29:59 AM
i may have already posted this rando thought, because i've definitely thought it before, but can you imagine if jenner had transitioned while still an athlete and then won, like, all the women's track&field gold medals?
She would have been unstoppable
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 11, 2023, 10:39:04 AM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 11, 2023, 01:44:31 PM
All cis-gendered female athletes that Jenner competed against would have been told to shut up and sit the eff down if they said anything . . . by the cis-gendered mansplainers of course
you seem very mad at maga spokeswoman kaitlin.
Post by: Spracne on March 11, 2023, 02:48:28 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 11, 2023, 03:41:57 PM
All cis-gendered female athletes that Jenner competed against would have been told to shut up and sit the eff down if they said anything . . . by the cis-gendered mansplainers of course
you seem very mad at maga spokeswoman kaitlin.
Sys rolls in with a hypothetical and #slowdug turns it into another one of his :lol: real life fantasies :thumbsup: :thumbsup: #onbrand
Also, :lol: :lol: :lol: that calling out the mansplainers is being mad at Jenner. The logic of #slowdug :thumbsup:
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 11, 2023, 03:59:21 PM
All cis-gendered female athletes that Jenner competed against would have been told to shut up and sit the eff down if they said anything . . . by the cis-gendered mansplainers of course
you seem very mad at maga spokeswoman kaitlin.
Sys rolls in with a hypothetical and #slowdug turns it into another one of his :lol: real life fantasies :thumbsup: :thumbsup: #onbrand
Also, :lol: :lol: :lol: that calling out the mansplainers is being mad at Jenner. The logic of #slowdug :thumbsup:
Actually I know you aren't mad at her for obvious reasons
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 11, 2023, 04:03:13 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 11, 2023, 10:42:13 PM
http://www.coronadonewsca.com/news/coronado_sports/the-true-story-of-oscar-jenner-s-brief-nba-career/article_66f24284-4b4e-11e5-a128-a3cade9cef14.html
I love how that link still works even though the site's profanity filter changed the URL to say Oscar :lol:
That's hilarious
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 12:06:11 PM
Fess up #blueanongE in your world trans rights now supersede women’s rights.
The cis-gendered woman must now genuflect to transgendedom or face the wrath of the cisgendered #blueanon male. #thumbsup
Post by: MakeItRain on March 26, 2023, 12:22:11 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 26, 2023, 12:23:31 PM
ESPN takes a page from our government and hands out awards and accolades to a biological male during a Women’s recognition award/segment.
Fess up #blueanongE in your world trans rights now supersede women’s rights.
The cis-gendered woman must now genuflect to transgendedom or face the wrath of the cisgendered #blueanon male. #thumbsup
What government are you talking about?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 12:43:02 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 12:43:42 PM
Sit down and STFU cis-gendered female athlete
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 01:12:29 PM
Post by: michigancat on March 26, 2023, 01:18:49 PM
ESPN takes a page from our government and hands out awards and accolades to a biological male during a Women’s recognition award/segment.Caitlyn Jenner like 5 years ago? What are we talking about here?
Fess up #blueanongE in your world trans rights now supersede women’s rights.
The cis-gendered woman must now genuflect to transgendedom or face the wrath of the cisgendered #blueanon male. #thumbsup
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 01:31:19 PM
ESPN takes a page from our government and hands out awards and accolades to a biological male during a Women’s recognition award/segment.Caitlyn Jenner like 5 years ago? What are we talking about here?
Fess up #blueanongE in your world trans rights now supersede women’s rights.
The cis-gendered woman must now genuflect to transgendedom or face the wrath of the cisgendered #blueanon male. #thumbsup
Lia Thompson was honored this morning as part of Women's History Month by ESPN.
Let's just open it up, no gender differentiation at all, just sports. I'll be looking forward to that Swiatek-Djokovic 2nd round singles match at Roland Garros.
Then people won't feel bad when they say that Griner should just up her game and do better when trying to post up Anthony Davis.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 26, 2023, 01:32:07 PM
Ours
You understand that the NCAA isn't a government agency, right?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 01:35:01 PM
Ours
You understand that the NCAA isn't a government agency, right?
You do understand what "Takes a page" means, right?
You did see the Women's award given to a biological male at the White House last month or no?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 26, 2023, 07:28:35 PM
Ours
You understand that the NCAA isn't a government agency, right?
You do understand what "Takes a page" means, right?
You did see the Women's award given to a biological male at the White House last month or no?
No, I don't follow the happenings with trans people all that closely. I've seen where Tennessee is trying (maybe they already have?) to make it illegal for biological men to dress like women. Haven't really seen where anyone's government is doing much to protect trans people, but if the Biden administration wants to and is able to, then good for them.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 07:44:55 PM
Handing out women’s awards to biological males is protecting trans people.Ours
You understand that the NCAA isn't a government agency, right?
You do understand what "Takes a page" means, right?
You did see the Women's award given to a biological male at the White House last month or no?
No, I don't follow the happenings with trans people all that closely. I've seen where Tennessee is trying (maybe they already have?) to make it illegal for biological men to dress like women. Haven't really seen where anyone's government is doing much to protect trans people, but if the Biden administration wants to and is able to, then good for them.
Fascinating
Post by: Spracne on March 26, 2023, 07:45:32 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2023, 07:49:39 PM
#BAU
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 26, 2023, 07:54:33 PM
Handing out women’s awards to biological males is protecting trans people.Ours
You understand that the NCAA isn't a government agency, right?
You do understand what "Takes a page" means, right?
You did see the Women's award given to a biological male at the White House last month or no?
No, I don't follow the happenings with trans people all that closely. I've seen where Tennessee is trying (maybe they already have?) to make it illegal for biological men to dress like women. Haven't really seen where anyone's government is doing much to protect trans people, but if the Biden administration wants to and is able to, then good for them.
Fascinating
I just said that I haven't seen the government doing anything to protect trans people, but sure.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 26, 2023, 09:24:22 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/7fx9y3.jpg)
My favorite part of this masterpiece is that obviously Dax was the originator of this content and yet the image quality is such that it appears to have been screenshotted several times. Outstanding work!
Post by: Trim on March 26, 2023, 09:52:07 PM
Post by: puniraptor on March 26, 2023, 10:24:17 PM
Post by: Trim on March 26, 2023, 10:46:50 PM
What's the worst recorded consequence to a person caused by all this?
Should clarify, worst consequence to a cis woman in sports competing with a trans woman.
Post by: MakeItRain on March 27, 2023, 12:25:15 AM
What's the worst recorded consequence to a person caused by all this?
Should clarify, worst consequence to a cis woman in sports competing with a trans woman.
Probably this baby backed bitch, Hannah Arensman, who cried and quit because she got beaten by one trans athlete and two others who were born female.
https://nypost.com/2023/03/23/transgender-cyclist-wins-nyc-womens-race/
Quote
“I have decided to end my cycling career,” Arensman said last Wednesday.
She said in her last race, in the elite women’s division of the UCI Cyclocross National Championships in late December, she “came in 4th place, flanked on either side by male riders awarded 3rd and 5th places.”
“My sister and family sobbed as they watched a man finish in front of me, having witnessed several physical interactions with him throughout the race,” she wrote, in a statement also shared by the Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS).
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 12:43:18 AM
So the primary victim came in 4th in a bike race that had cis women come in 1st and 2nd with trans women coming in 3rd and 5th, and that was the straw that had her retire, with her claiming that some other race involving a trans woman might've caused her to be overlooked for an international team and all that's made it discouraging to train.
That "overlooked" word tells me all I need to know that there was no consequence to her. If the international cyclocross team (lol) was objectively selected based on placement in qualifiers, she'd have some point. But if it's more subjectively selected as she's implied, I'm confident that cyclocross's grant hill would be able to factor in if she was the first-place or second-place cis woman, or just look at times, and select accordingly.
Given all the outrage, there's gotta be something out there where a cis woman suffered direct tangible damages as a result of a trans woman being in their sport, right?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 27, 2023, 08:11:04 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 27, 2023, 09:10:00 AM
What's the worst recorded consequence to a person caused by all this?
Should clarify, worst consequence to a cis woman in sports competing with a trans woman.
I immediately thought of the swimmer who apparently tied with Lia thomas in an event and turned it into a grift and lo and behold she was on Fox News with that cyclist
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/espn-honors-lia-thomas-celebrating-womens-history-month-segment
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 10:34:32 AM
They should just work harder!!
Post by: MakeItRain on March 27, 2023, 10:51:18 AM
They should just work harder!!
Yeah. That's generally the message we give when someone loses at a sport. Luckily not all of us think that girls and women are too fragile to hear it.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 10:59:47 AM
They should just work harder!!
Yeah. That's generally the message we give when someone loses at a sport. Luckily not all of us think that girls and women are too fragile to hear it.
:lol: :lol: In the case of the biker she was competing against men with a set of balls and testosterone coursing through their veins. In addition, one of them should have been disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct.
The "they shouldn't be fragile" trope is just complete bullshit and you know it.
But like I and others have said, let's just have sports, no differentiation at all between genders. It's 6-1, 6-1, 5-0 here in the 3rd with Djokovic seemingly cruising in this one, what do you think, John? Well Chris, Swiatek just needs to nut up here and play harder, really, all of the cis-gendered female participants here at Wimbledon need to up their game dramatically. Fowler - Well the biological males have won every tourney here on the circuit so far so I would agree, John. These cis-gendered females need to regroup and do better!
Post by: OK_Cat on March 27, 2023, 11:02:23 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 11:03:54 AM
Post by: OK_Cat on March 27, 2023, 11:04:55 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 11:17:50 AM
But I get it, cis-gendered male #blueanon/#blueanongE just wants the cis-gendered females to just try harder, and of course, STFU.
Post by: michigancat on March 27, 2023, 11:23:31 AM
Cis-Gendered athletes standing up for themselves is a grift . . . also TERF bitches . . . cRusty - #blueanongE lunatic
no only Riley Gaines is the one I think is a total grifter. I mean she's on the "please cancel me TPUSA speaking circuit"
https://twitter.com/thelogandubil/status/1636025815023403011
Post by: OK_Cat on March 27, 2023, 11:28:53 AM
There's video of one of the male competitors bumping her out of the way during the race.
But I get it, cis-gendered male #blueanon/#blueanongE just wants the cis-gendered females to just try harder, and of course, STFU.
That's boring, I was hoping for bigger.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 11:48:53 AM
Cis-Gendered athletes standing up for themselves is a grift . . . also TERF bitches . . . cRusty - #blueanongE lunatic
no only Riley Gaines is the one I think is a total grifter. I mean she's on the "please cancel me TPUSA speaking circuit"
https://twitter.com/thelogandubil/status/1636025815023403011
So the petition and it's 11,000 signatures, and the screed that comes with it, isn't real?
I always love the screeds that come along with these petitions. In short: We define the phobia (it's a phobia if someone disagrees with us), we define the ideals (the only ideals are our ideals, screw everybody else), we define the hate (hate is all people and things that disagree with us and/or is not in lockstep with our dogma) :thumbsup: . . . oh, and we're very open minded, as long as the ideas are in total lockstep with our beliefs, thoughts and ideals. :thumbsup:
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 12:13:35 PM
They should just work harder!!
Yeah. That's generally the message we give when someone loses at a sport. Luckily not all of us think that girls and women are too fragile to hear it.
:lol: :lol: In the case of the biker she was competing against men with a set of balls and testosterone coursing through their veins. In addition, one of them should have been disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct.
Are you talking about hannah arensman and the first half of that nypost article?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 12:27:52 PM
Post by: OK_Cat on March 27, 2023, 12:29:12 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 12:31:05 PM
Pfft, look at the Breanna Stewart, can't even get a shot off against Jalen Brunson, soft AF man, soft AF
Post by: OK_Cat on March 27, 2023, 12:32:28 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 27, 2023, 12:33:17 PM
Post by: OK_Cat on March 27, 2023, 12:33:34 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 12:34:31 PM
Dax is well-known as a champion of all women's sports. It is known.
Perpetually Triggered Spracne is on the clock . . . :thumbsup:
Post by: michigancat on March 27, 2023, 12:40:32 PM
Cis-Gendered athletes standing up for themselves is a grift . . . also TERF bitches . . . cRusty - #blueanongE lunatic
no only Riley Gaines is the one I think is a total grifter. I mean she's on the "please cancel me TPUSA speaking circuit"
https://twitter.com/thelogandubil/status/1636025815023403011
So the petition and it's 11,000 signatures, and the screed that comes with it, isn't real?
I always love the screeds that come along with these petitions. In short: We define the phobia (it's a phobia if someone disagrees with us), we define the ideals (the only ideals are our ideals, screw everybody else), we define the hate (hate is all people and things that disagree with us and/or is not in lockstep with our dogma) :thumbsup: . . . oh, and we're very open minded, as long as the ideas are in total lockstep with our beliefs, thoughts and ideals. :thumbsup:
dax, what in the world are you talking about
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 12:40:46 PM
https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
Like tom tweeted, forget the gender part, if rubbing isn’t racing in cyclocross and there should’ve been a penalty, that’s on cyclocross.
Was the tangible damage - whether because of the uncalled penalty or because AK was in the race at all - that Hannah should’ve got 3rd place instead of 4th and in turn she lost out on_______?
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 12:42:23 PM
that clip is the most i've ever watched of a bicycle race, but if they did more stuff like that I would probably watch more.
Wasn’t at all what I expected but makes sense, motocross, cyclocross.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 12:42:32 PM
Cis-Gendered athletes standing up for themselves is a grift . . . also TERF bitches . . . cRusty - #blueanongE lunatic
no only Riley Gaines is the one I think is a total grifter. I mean she's on the "please cancel me TPUSA speaking circuit"
https://twitter.com/thelogandubil/status/1636025815023403011
So the petition and it's 11,000 signatures, and the screed that comes with it, isn't real?
I always love the screeds that come along with these petitions. In short: We define the phobia (it's a phobia if someone disagrees with us), we define the ideals (the only ideals are our ideals, screw everybody else), we define the hate (hate is all people and things that disagree with us and/or is not in lockstep with our dogma) :thumbsup: . . . oh, and we're very open minded, as long as the ideas are in total lockstep with our beliefs, thoughts and ideals. :thumbsup:
dax, what in the world are you talking about
WTF are you talking about "the please cancel me" . . . while they're trying to cancel her/them.
I suppose in cRusty world they should just STFU and not even try to talk and if they do, they're just trying to get cancelled :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:
Post by: michigancat on March 27, 2023, 12:46:39 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 12:49:44 PM
I'm just saying she's on a similar track as the TPUSA grifters - she's found a lane (ha!) and is going to cash in.
If you speak out, you're just trying to be a victim and a grifter. cRusty
Translation: STFU you
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 12:54:05 PM
Gotta hand it to those guys, they've reeled in millions.
Post by: michigancat on March 27, 2023, 01:02:46 PM
Probably needs to be in another thread, but the Liconln Project Grifts are running at 10,000 RPM's these days.
Gotta hand it to those guys, they've reeled in millions.
yes! they are total grifters AND SUCK!
Post by: Cire on March 27, 2023, 01:19:06 PM
Probably needs to be in another thread, but the Liconln Project Grifts are running at 10,000 RPM's these days.
Gotta hand it to those guys, they've reeled in millions.
big time dax
Post by: Tobias on March 27, 2023, 01:32:21 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on March 27, 2023, 02:12:45 PM
Post by: Spracne on March 27, 2023, 02:19:29 PM
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 03:36:29 PM
https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
Like tom tweeted, forget the gender part, if rubbing isn’t racing in cyclocross and there should’ve been a penalty, that’s on cyclocross.
Was the tangible damage - whether because of the uncalled penalty or because AK was in the race at all - that Hannah should’ve got 3rd place instead of 4th and in turn she lost out on_______?
:impatient:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 03:43:50 PM
The lastest example: Wanting more weapons for us (America), to fight America's wars, rather than sending them off to a UkroGrifter State is . . . hating America. Super weird, but these are the life and times of #blueanon/#blueanongE
Apparently hating America in the context of this thread is :lol: :lol: at the regression of #blueanon who just awhile back melted down about: Man spreading and hormone based male aggression but now it's advocating for whipping it out and smacking cis-gendered women in the face with it. :thumbsup:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 03:44:50 PM
https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
Like tom tweeted, forget the gender part, if rubbing isn’t racing in cyclocross and there should’ve been a penalty, that’s on cyclocross.
Was the tangible damage - whether because of the uncalled penalty or because AK was in the race at all - that Hannah should’ve got 3rd place instead of 4th and in turn she lost out on_______?
:impatient:
They're investigating the incident now, apparently. They won't do anything because their terrified of the cis-gendered male backed trans movement. :thumbsup:
Post by: catastrophe on March 27, 2023, 04:02:15 PM
Why on earth would anyone be upset if a trans athlete got dinged for committing a penalty?https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
Like tom tweeted, forget the gender part, if rubbing isn’t racing in cyclocross and there should’ve been a penalty, that’s on cyclocross.
Was the tangible damage - whether because of the uncalled penalty or because AK was in the race at all - that Hannah should’ve got 3rd place instead of 4th and in turn she lost out on_______?
:impatient:
They're investigating the incident now, apparently. They won't do anything because their terrified of the cis-gendered male backed trans movement. :thumbsup:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 04:13:21 PM
Why on earth would anyone be upset if a trans athlete got dinged for committing a penalty?https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
Like tom tweeted, forget the gender part, if rubbing isn’t racing in cyclocross and there should’ve been a penalty, that’s on cyclocross.
Was the tangible damage - whether because of the uncalled penalty or because AK was in the race at all - that Hannah should’ve got 3rd place instead of 4th and in turn she lost out on_______?
:impatient:
They're investigating the incident now, apparently. They won't do anything because their terrified of the cis-gendered male backed trans movement. :thumbsup:
Look towards your movement for the answer
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 05:01:31 PM
https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
Like tom tweeted, forget the gender part, if rubbing isn’t racing in cyclocross and there should’ve been a penalty, that’s on cyclocross.
Was the tangible damage - whether because of the uncalled penalty or because AK was in the race at all - that Hannah should’ve got 3rd place instead of 4th and in turn she lost out on_______?
:impatient:
They're investigating the incident now, apparently. They won't do anything because their terrified of the cis-gendered male backed trans movement. :thumbsup:
Well, good. If that move was against the rules in that sport, correct the result.
Not sure what connection there'd be to transgender issues. I'm aware that the outrage over the missed call, if there was one, is only because of people mad about transgender things, but from a sport perspective it's no different than weirdos calling in penalties in golf tournaments they see on tv.
Back to my question before we learned of the cool roller derby parts of this dirt bike event, if this was simply her coming in 4th behind a 1st place cis woman and a 2nd place cis woman and a 3rd place trans woman and ahead of a 5th place trans woman, what were her damages associated with trans women being in the race?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 05:32:01 PM
Post by: Trim on March 27, 2023, 05:36:45 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2023, 05:48:09 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on March 28, 2023, 11:13:13 AM
https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
:ROFL: holy eff! How did she recover from that savage assault?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 31, 2023, 02:23:51 PM
https://twitter.com/TomHPearman/status/1602134082976096256?s=20
:ROFL: holy eff! How did she recover from that savage assault?
eff them cis-gendered women (literally and figuratively) . . . MIR
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 31, 2023, 02:39:01 PM
"Based on this background and available evidence, the Expert Working Group felt that trans athletes should be able to participate in the gender with which they identify, regardless of whether or not they have undergone hormone therapy."
https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1640407143059972096?s=20
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2023, 03:24:59 PM
"Based on this background and available evidence, the Expert Working Group felt that trans athletes should be able to participate in the gender with which they identify, regardless of whether or not they have undergone hormone therapy."
https://twitter.com/icons_women/status/1640407143059972096?s=20
lol I cannot follow what in the world is going on here
Post by: Dugout DickStone on March 31, 2023, 04:25:51 PM
Post by: Katpappy on April 27, 2023, 11:06:42 PM
Post by: michigancat on April 28, 2023, 04:34:54 AM
KANSAS: First to keep swinging dicks out of high school girls' sports. This is the first law said to be following along in effect about women's rights in sports.They really are showing those 3 transgender girls who played sports in Kansas this year who's boss. Well done you rough ridin' assholes
Post by: steve dave on April 28, 2023, 07:34:49 AM
https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1651447361116282880
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 29, 2023, 03:24:17 PM
https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/trans-runner-glenique-frank-ripped-for-beating-14k-women-in-london-marathon/amp/
Train harder ladies
Post by: michigancat on April 29, 2023, 03:33:46 PM
Congrats (again) testosteroneShe finished 6171st (in the female category) and did not compete in the elite event which requires you participate with the sex you went through puberty. No one who finished behind her cares
https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/trans-runner-glenique-frank-ripped-for-beating-14k-women-in-london-marathon/amp/
Train harder ladies
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 29, 2023, 03:35:16 PM
If that’s what you need to tell yourselfCongrats (again) testosteroneShe finished 6171st (in the female category) and did not compete in the elite event which requires you participate with the sex you went through puberty. No one who finished behind her cares
https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/trans-runner-glenique-frank-ripped-for-beating-14k-women-in-london-marathon/amp/
Train harder ladies
Post by: Spracne on April 29, 2023, 03:39:17 PM
Post by: sys on April 29, 2023, 04:04:15 PM
She finished 6171st (in the female category) and did not compete in the elite event.
holy crap.
Post by: catastrophe on April 29, 2023, 04:08:16 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on April 29, 2023, 04:15:05 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 29, 2023, 04:15:06 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spracne on April 29, 2023, 05:04:32 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 29, 2023, 06:37:25 PM
Post by: Trim on April 29, 2023, 06:39:23 PM
Quote
The runner — whose social media still shows photos from earlier races while still a balding then-married man — ended the mid-race chat to gush about how her “beautiful son” is expecting a baby.
(https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/NYPICHPDPICT000010121125.jpg?quality=75&strip=all)
Post by: steve dave on April 29, 2023, 06:40:53 PM
Glad these so called “facts” are helping Mich sleep at night but some of us are still wide awake thinking of her penis.lmao
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 29, 2023, 06:43:07 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on April 30, 2023, 12:38:59 AM
Congrats (again) testosterone
https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/trans-runner-glenique-frank-ripped-for-beating-14k-women-in-london-marathon/amp/
Train harder ladies
oh dax :ROFL:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 30, 2023, 07:10:21 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on April 30, 2023, 01:29:18 PM
https://twitter.com/DMRegister/status/1652674206247657472
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 30, 2023, 02:07:46 PM
Congrats once again to testosterone
Post by: DaBigTrain on April 30, 2023, 02:36:09 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 01, 2023, 05:26:16 AM
Yep a “rage fit”.
Congrats once again to testosterone
Making some strong assumptions there. One would assume they are subjected to the same drug testing their competitors are. Hating is a bad look, dax.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 01, 2023, 06:42:26 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 10:25:46 AM
https://twitter.com/62Takes/status/1668434471249653761
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 13, 2023, 10:28:49 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 13, 2023, 10:53:41 AM
Just another day with #blueanongE
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 11:10:10 AM
2 grandparents = everybodyThose 2 grandparents are heroes of your movement.
Just another day with #blueanongE
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 13, 2023, 11:25:38 AM
2 grandparents = everybodyThose 2 grandparents are heroes of your movement.
Just another day with #blueanongE
definite desantis folks
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 13, 2023, 11:39:15 AM
Post by: _33 on June 13, 2023, 12:15:02 PM
Great work everybody
https://twitter.com/62Takes/status/1668434471249653761
Haha, grandparents do crazy things. One time my grandpa got kicked out of one of my little league games for calling the umpire 'coke bottle glasses'. :D
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 13, 2023, 01:27:12 PM
Great work everybody
https://twitter.com/62Takes/status/1668434471249653761
Haha, grandparents do crazy things. One time my grandpa got kicked out of one of my little league games for calling the umpire 'coke bottle glasses'. :D
practically the same thing, _33! Excellent point by you, thanks for stopping by
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 02:24:58 PM
Great work everybody
https://twitter.com/62Takes/status/1668434471249653761
Haha, grandparents do crazy things. One time my grandpa got kicked out of one of my little league games for calling the umpire 'coke bottle glasses'. :D
practically the same thing, _33! Excellent point by you, thanks for stopping by
yep just a couple of silly stories! Grandparents LMAO amirite
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 13, 2023, 02:39:55 PM
2 grandparents = everybodyThose 2 grandparents are heroes of your movement.
Just another day with #blueanongE
If "my movement" is the movement that doesn't want to see testosterone laden men competing against women and/or then inviting themselves into cis-gendered women's most private of spaces and making cis-gendered females feel insecure and afraid. Then sure, I'll accept that as being "my movement".
But "my movement" doesn't include people who think some little kid looks like a boy and wants the competition stopped to check them out.
Now, I know your movement, specifically cis-gendered males like you are fully ready to go to war against any cis-gendered female that speaks up for themselves. :thumbsup:
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 13, 2023, 02:52:54 PM
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 02:54:16 PM
2 grandparents = everybodyThose 2 grandparents are heroes of your movement.
Just another day with #blueanongE
If "my movement" is the movement that doesn't want to see testosterone laden men competing against women and/or then inviting themselves into cis-gendered women's most private of spaces and making cis-gendered females feel insecure and afraid. Then sure, I'll accept that as being "my movement".
But "my movement" doesn't include people who think some little kid looks like a boy and wants the competition stopped to check them out.
wrong, it's all the same movement (yours)
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 13, 2023, 02:55:34 PM
dax in your opinion (or factual knowledge) what is the acceptable level of testosterone that can be present in an athlete that purports to be female (at least as it pertains to participation in sports)?
He will let the visual inspection he will insist on decide.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 13, 2023, 03:02:42 PM
2 grandparents = everybodyThose 2 grandparents are heroes of your movement.
Just another day with #blueanongE
If "my movement" is the movement that doesn't want to see testosterone laden men competing against women and/or then inviting themselves into cis-gendered women's most private of spaces and making cis-gendered females feel insecure and afraid. Then sure, I'll accept that as being "my movement".
But "my movement" doesn't include people who think some little kid looks like a boy and wants the competition stopped to check them out.
wrong, it's all the same movement (yours)
Nice edit as usual cRusty :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 03:05:12 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 13, 2023, 03:08:38 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
impressive tazing going on itt
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 13, 2023, 03:10:31 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
I'm talking about grown ass cis-gendered men (like you) attacking cis-gendered women who have the audacity to speak up for themselves and labeling any cis-gendered woman who speaks up for themselves because they don't want dudes in their dressing room as a TERF. As has been discussed on this blog.
Now, get back to your fake outrage.
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 03:23:22 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
I'm talking about grown ass cis-gendered men (like you) attacking cis-gendered women who have the audacity to speak up for themselves and labeling any cis-gendered woman who speaks up for themselves because they don't want dudes in their dressing room as a TERF. As has been discussed on this blog.
ok, you are against the 9 year old girl. Nice movement ya got there!
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 13, 2023, 03:33:35 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
I'm talking about grown ass cis-gendered men (like you) attacking cis-gendered women who have the audacity to speak up for themselves and labeling any cis-gendered woman who speaks up for themselves because they don't want dudes in their dressing room as a TERF. As has been discussed on this blog.
ok, you are against the 9 year old girl. Nice movement ya got there!
So you took that, and determined I'm "against" the 9 year old girl. I read the article.
Who you should be mad at is any school official who entertained those people's request, particularly since those people allegedly had "no affiliation" with the school system on any official level. You should be mad that that they didn't immediately escort those people off the premises.
But again, if you want to continue to play the broad brush game, I'll just assume that you're part of the TERF (a term that #blueanon pplies to any cis-gendered female who stands up for themselves) smasher brigade dominated by cis-gendered males.
Post by: _33 on June 13, 2023, 07:21:16 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves :thumbsup:
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
The track meet didn't shut down lol. They removed him and banned him according to the article.
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 07:23:05 PM
Keep issuing the beat downs on cis-gendered females who have the audacity to stand up for themselves
are you referring to the 9 year old girl that your movement shut down a track meet for until her genitals could be verified?
The track meet didn't shut down lol. They removed him and banned him according to the article.
Yeah it was sooooo silly lol
Post by: DQ12 on June 13, 2023, 07:30:48 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 07:43:33 PM
A bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 07:46:18 PM
Also, I expect opposition to gay marriage to start to shift in a similar way as folks like libsoftiktok continue to have larger platformsA bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
Post by: DQ12 on June 13, 2023, 07:51:28 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.Also, I expect opposition to gay marriage to start to shift in a similar way as folks like libsoftiktok continue to have larger platformsA bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
Post by: Spracne on June 13, 2023, 07:58:29 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.Also, I expect opposition to gay marriage to start to shift in a similar way as folks like libsoftiktok continue to have larger platformsA bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
It shouldn't. We are in a regressive era.
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 08:00:03 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
Post by: MakeItRain on June 13, 2023, 08:06:23 PM
A bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
Speaking of Lia Thomas, did you ask know her Ivy League record was broken a year later by a cisgender woman. I wonder why that didn't get any attention and why Riley Gaines didn't bother to mention it.
You know what else people feel differently about now than they did five years ago? Slavery and the Holocaust! Congratulations to conservatives think tanks for taking advantage of stupid people and intentionally misleading them to hate other people in hopes that it would make their shitty lives, better.
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 08:17:41 PM
I mean the most popular Facebook poster in the world tweeted this todaythat would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1668660203439419393
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 13, 2023, 09:35:26 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.Also, I expect opposition to gay marriage to start to shift in a similar way as folks like libsoftiktok continue to have larger platformsA bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
I have a hunch you would prefer to just (outwardly) dismiss it as the-sky-is-falling-isms, and then when it happens you’ll say “huh, well that’s definitely a surprise. Who’s feeling like Chili’s for happy hour?”
Post by: DQ12 on June 13, 2023, 09:44:32 PM
Post by: michigancat on June 13, 2023, 09:59:44 PM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot takeIt isn't a particularly hot take, it's probably what most moderate Republicans will be telling themselves while they vote for DeSantis.
However, there is evidence of growing LGBT resentment. Evidence that you shared and said surprised you!
Post by: _33 on June 13, 2023, 11:39:24 PM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot take
Any take that doesn't 100% demonize the other party is threat that must be terminated. This is culture war, and culture war is hell.
Post by: star seed 7 on June 13, 2023, 11:50:12 PM
Or maybe they are all just being silly gooses
Post by: steve dave on June 13, 2023, 11:57:11 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MakeItRain on June 14, 2023, 02:21:53 AM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot take
Any take that doesn't 100% demonize the other party is threat that must be terminated. This is culture war, and culture war is hell.
lol with this both sides bullshit again
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 14, 2023, 08:02:40 AM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot take
that's a fair point. When a political party's sole focus is on culture war issues - specifically the looming threat posed to your children by the lgbtq community - it is a bit of a head scratcher that the base would start to hate that group at an increasing clip. shrug emoji tho, right?
Post by: Cire on June 14, 2023, 08:20:25 AM
Post by: _33 on June 14, 2023, 11:58:36 AM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot take
Any take that doesn't 100% demonize the other party is threat that must be terminated. This is culture war, and culture war is hell.
lol with this both sides bullshit again
Unfortunately, the fact that you only think it's one side proves that it's both sides. But don't worry, as an unbiased 3rd party observer I will show you the light.
Post by: michigancat on June 14, 2023, 12:14:24 PM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot take
Any take that doesn't 100% demonize the other party is threat that must be terminated. This is culture war, and culture war is hell.
lol with this both sides bullshit again
Unfortunately, the fact that you only think it's one side proves that it's both sides. But don't worry, as an unbiased 3rd party observer I will show you the light.
Do you think "both sides" are equally wrong in the track meet case?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 14, 2023, 01:40:07 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on June 14, 2023, 03:13:17 PM
I didn’t expect “this fairly steady ~30 year trend suddenly reversing course would surprise me” to be a particularly hot take
Any take that doesn't 100% demonize the other party is threat that must be terminated. This is culture war, and culture war is hell.
lol with this both sides bullshit again
Unfortunately, the fact that you only think it's one side proves that it's both sides. But don't worry, as an unbiased 3rd party observer I will show you the light.
You spout this both sides stuff in issues like this, it's never fiscal policy. If it's your goal to make strangers feel like you're some unbiased observer, you're failing. I think your true motivation though is not trying to convince us but trying to convince yourself.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 14, 2023, 04:58:03 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Post by: _33 on June 14, 2023, 05:11:47 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 14, 2023, 05:22:37 PM
Link?that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Post by: Spracne on June 14, 2023, 05:25:11 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 14, 2023, 05:26:16 PM
Dax is mad that he didn't get to be the genital checker#blueanon is mad that in some states parents ripping the genitalia out of their children on demand or giving their 6 year old gender altering hormone therapy on demand is banned.
Also very ragey that adults sexing up the 5 year olds is frowned upon.
Post by: MakeItRain on June 14, 2023, 06:40:13 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
Also define girls with penises
Post by: star seed 7 on June 14, 2023, 07:20:32 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Will you be volunteering to inspect the genitals of children?
Post by: Spracne on June 14, 2023, 07:29:50 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 14, 2023, 07:56:16 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
The entirety of recorded human history isn’t really that long I mean the universe is like 14 billion years old for cryin out loud
Post by: MakeItRain on June 14, 2023, 10:13:50 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
The entirety of recorded human history isn’t really that long I mean the universe is like 14 billion years old for cryin out loud
You're trying to be cute here but your unintentionally and incorrectly proving his point. "Girls with penises" is not new because it's non-existent. FTM gender affirming surgery isn't performed on minors anywhere in the world. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health does not recommend bottom surgery on anyone under 18 and only allows for top surgery in teens in very specific situations.
We shouldn't crap post when discussing all of the dangerous misinformation about trans people, particularly when they're attempting to illustrate what they call grooming and indoctrination.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 14, 2023, 11:24:29 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
The entirety of recorded human history isn’t really that long I mean the universe is like 14 billion years old for cryin out loud
You're trying to be cute here but your unintentionally and incorrectly proving his point. "Girls with penises" is not new because it's non-existent. FTM gender affirming surgery isn't performed on minors anywhere in the world. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health does not recommend bottom surgery on anyone under 18 and only allows for top surgery in teens in very specific situations.
We shouldn't crap post when discussing all of the dangerous misinformation about trans people, particularly when they're attempting to illustrate what they call grooming and indoctrination.
While the term “girls with penises” is reductive at best, I was just making the point that trans people, intersex people, non-binary people, have existed literally as far back as history has been recorded. I have not even bothered to attempt at engaging with Dax - as he talks about parents letting their children be mutilated - bc I know his argument is in such bad faith that there’s really no point. In fact, I suspect he knows that LITERALLY the only time doctors prescribe hormone blockers to pre-pubescent children is when they are diagnosed with precocious puberty, wherein the children in question are not seeking gender affirming care, they’re just getting to puberty way too fast for their age/development. Dax is aware of this fact but it completely devastates his specious argument so he will have no part of it.
Otherwise, fair point. I get frustrated watching dlew and 33 proudly flaunting their ignorance, especially when it’s clear they are callous and indifferent to the struggle that these people are going through. So I guess that’s where I can’t contain my cynicism…I don’t know how to reach the proudly stupid.
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 07:21:28 AM
I said I would be surprised if a social trend favoring gay marriage acceptance reversed course.
Post by: Kat Kid on June 15, 2023, 07:28:20 AM
I think Griswold poisons the well significantly for a lot of people that were willing to vote for Bush twice while Rove conspired to put constitutional amendments against gay marriage across the country, but in the context of women’s abortions rights being threatened viscerally, playing these games with people’s lives is taken a bit more seriously.
We cannot overlook the very cynical people that are trying to cause a freak out about books and gays etc. like Chris Rufo, libsoftiktok, et. al. And the threat that they pose. It should be directly confronted. But it hasn’t been a winner and I don’t think it will be.
Most people don’t think shouting down a school board meeting over young adult fiction or calling teachers groomers is respectable adult behavior. So while the stakes are high, it is important to not see these people as a big monster looming. They are in fact small, and pathetic people that have thus far been able to dig a grave for themselves.
When Kansas votes overwhelmingly to maintain a right to abortion and they can’t move things, they will keep trying increasingly undemocratic means to achieve their ends. For moderates and “liberals” these process questions will continue to build the coalition necessary to defeat the fascists, but they will never go away completely.
The left will never build any power approaching these people until there is an affirmative and positive vision put forth and that is the only worry that is real and we should have.
Joe Biden and Donald Trump both represent a spectacle made in the flesh of the rotting American empire, smiling and senile, angry and cornered. We can hold off a bit longer with these lies to comfort ourselves, but waves are coming. How we choose to respond in those times will be the true choice and the waves are not far off.
Starting to make preparations for the real fight would be better than getting too distracted by these weirdos.
Post by: steve dave on June 15, 2023, 07:46:11 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: michigancat on June 15, 2023, 08:03:46 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on June 15, 2023, 08:20:26 AM
Kk, I would argue that the groomer/anti-trans crap would have been way more successful if Roe hadn't been overturned. Banning trans kids from sports or medical care only impacts a few weak people and is way ickier to a lot of folks, while abortion impacts a TON of people.I’m not a woman Rusty. My pronouns are he/him. You can’t just re-post my thesis in your own words and get credit for it.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 15, 2023, 09:23:08 AM
Kk, I would argue that the groomer/anti-trans crap would have been way more successful if Roe hadn't been overturned. Banning trans kids from sports or medical care only impacts a few weak people and is way ickier to a lot of folks, while abortion impacts a TON of people.
Banning in cRusty lunatic world means preventing (for example) biological males from competing against biological women in sports.
On the whole, no one is "banning" these kids from participating in sports, and they are welcome to compete against their biological sex in any sport or competition that they chose to participate in.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on June 15, 2023, 10:57:24 AM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
The entirety of recorded human history isn’t really that long I mean the universe is like 14 billion years old for cryin out loud
You're trying to be cute here but your unintentionally and incorrectly proving his point. "Girls with penises" is not new because it's non-existent. FTM gender affirming surgery isn't performed on minors anywhere in the world. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health does not recommend bottom surgery on anyone under 18 and only allows for top surgery in teens in very specific situations.
We shouldn't crap post when discussing all of the dangerous misinformation about trans people, particularly when they're attempting to illustrate what they call grooming and indoctrination.
I think that "girls with penises" was referring to mtf trans people who haven't had surgery.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 11:17:08 AM
“Proudly flaunting my ignorance”? “Proudly stupid”?
I said I would be surprised if a social trend favoring gay marriage acceptance reversed course.
Would you prefer willfully obtuse? I mean when there is a preponderance of evidence that “thing A” is happening, and you decide to volunteer your opinion that “thing A is not happening, and I would be very surprised if thing A happens” then how would you define that?
Like, sorry dude, this is “smoking is not harmful to your health” magnitude of being on the wrong side of history. Best I can hope for is that at some point in my lifetime, we as a society look back and say “wow, I cannot believe it was socially acceptable to treat a group of people that way, how barbaric” but I’m not especially optimistic that will happen. Lately the trend has been “let’s undo all the progress that’s happened the last 70 years because…reasons. Let’s invent boogie men to stoke fear, because the only reason that a reasonable minded person would support this is if we can convince them there is a looming threat to them/their families. It will also make it a lot easier for the folks who aren’t, ya know, outwardly bigots…it’s a lot easier to sleep at night when you have the mindset of I don’t hate these people bc I’m a bigot I hate them because they are a threat to me”
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 11:48:27 AM
I'm honestly lost. What was the opinion I volunteered that "thing A is not happening"? And are you saying I'm on the wrong side of history? About what? My tepid prediction about what a pew research poll will look like in a year or two? Did you mean to quote my post?“Proudly flaunting my ignorance”? “Proudly stupid”?
I said I would be surprised if a social trend favoring gay marriage acceptance reversed course.
Would you prefer willfully obtuse? I mean when there is a preponderance of evidence that “thing A” is happening, and you decide to volunteer your opinion that “thing A is not happening, and I would be very surprised if thing A happens” then how would you define that?
Like, sorry dude, this is “smoking is not harmful to your health” magnitude of being on the wrong side of history. Best I can hope for is that at some point in my lifetime, we as a society look back and say “wow, I cannot believe it was socially acceptable to treat a group of people that way, how barbaric” but I’m not especially optimistic that will happen. Lately the trend has been “let’s undo all the progress that’s happened the last 70 years because…reasons. Let’s invent boogie men to stoke fear, because the only reason that a reasonable minded person would support this is if we can convince them there is a looming threat to them/their families. It will also make it a lot easier for the folks who aren’t, ya know, outwardly bigots…it’s a lot easier to sleep at night when you have the mindset of I don’t hate these people bc I’m a bigot I hate them because they are a threat to me”
You owe me an apology, imo.
Post by: Pete on June 15, 2023, 11:56:20 AM
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 11:57:52 AM
Dlew, perhaps they (wrongfully?) deduced that your intention was to play dumb about the obvious increasing dangers to trans folk and their loved ones.We were talking about gay marriage though.
Post by: _33 on June 15, 2023, 12:28:32 PM
Post by: 'taterblast on June 15, 2023, 12:56:00 PM
Post by: michigancat on June 15, 2023, 12:58:58 PM
Dlew, perhaps they (wrongfully?) deduced that your intention was to play dumb about the obvious increasing dangers to trans folk and their loved ones.We were talking about gay marriage though.
I think you are being willfully ignorant about trans rights sentiment being distinct from gay rights sentiment. I'm also picking up vibes of "Republicans wouldn't go after gay marriage!" because you are in favor of gay marriage but also lean to the right. It seems to ignore the growing resentment toward LGBT folks that you yourself shared and said was surprising.
Like I said earlier, I don't think your take is particularly hot though. I definitely don't think you're a monster.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 15, 2023, 01:27:26 PM
Post by: _33 on June 15, 2023, 01:46:07 PM
Dlew, perhaps they (wrongfully?) deduced that your intention was to play dumb about the obvious increasing dangers to trans folk and their loved ones.We were talking about gay marriage though.
I think you are being willfully ignorant about trans rights sentiment being distinct from gay rights sentiment. I'm also picking up vibes of "Republicans wouldn't go after gay marriage!" because you are in favor of gay marriage but also lean to the right. It seems to ignore the growing resentment toward LGBT folks that you yourself shared and said was surprising.
Like I said earlier, I don't think your take is particularly hot though. I definitely don't think you're a monster.
'picking up on vibes' = I'm going to insert my own interpretation of what you meant here even though you didn't say or imply it.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 01:50:32 PM
I'm honestly lost. What was the opinion I volunteered that "thing A is not happening"? And are you saying I'm on the wrong side of history? About what? My tepid prediction about what a pew research poll will look like in a year or two? Did you mean to quote my post?“Proudly flaunting my ignorance”? “Proudly stupid”?
I said I would be surprised if a social trend favoring gay marriage acceptance reversed course.
Would you prefer willfully obtuse? I mean when there is a preponderance of evidence that “thing A” is happening, and you decide to volunteer your opinion that “thing A is not happening, and I would be very surprised if thing A happens” then how would you define that?
Like, sorry dude, this is “smoking is not harmful to your health” magnitude of being on the wrong side of history. Best I can hope for is that at some point in my lifetime, we as a society look back and say “wow, I cannot believe it was socially acceptable to treat a group of people that way, how barbaric” but I’m not especially optimistic that will happen. Lately the trend has been “let’s undo all the progress that’s happened the last 70 years because…reasons. Let’s invent boogie men to stoke fear, because the only reason that a reasonable minded person would support this is if we can convince them there is a looming threat to them/their families. It will also make it a lot easier for the folks who aren’t, ya know, outwardly bigots…it’s a lot easier to sleep at night when you have the mindset of I don’t hate these people bc I’m a bigot I hate them because they are a threat to me”
You owe me an apology, imo.
Okay, let me try to simplify it. Based on your postings ITT, the vibe I’m getting from you could be boiled down to “you guys are overreacting, the safety/wellbeing/civil rights/etc. of the LGBTQ community are in no more peril today than they were 10 years ago”. That, coupled with the fact that you seem nonplussed at the (in my opinion) vile treatment they are receiving…with a smack of “the reason it doesn’t bother me is because I would prefer they were not around. I’m not saying I would actively take any measures to see that come to fruition, but hey if it happens…that’s fine with me”
If ^all that is not, in fact, your sentiment or at least a good approximation, then yes I do owe you an apology, and I am sorry. I would encourage you in the future to maybe try to be more thoughtful with your word choice because I think for the most part I am pretty good at reading for comprehension and understanding intent, and the above was how I am interpreting what you are saying
Post by: michigancat on June 15, 2023, 01:55:08 PM
Dlew, perhaps they (wrongfully?) deduced that your intention was to play dumb about the obvious increasing dangers to trans folk and their loved ones.We were talking about gay marriage though.
I think you are being willfully ignorant about trans rights sentiment being distinct from gay rights sentiment. I'm also picking up vibes of "Republicans wouldn't go after gay marriage!" because you are in favor of gay marriage but also lean to the right. It seems to ignore the growing resentment toward LGBT folks that you yourself shared and said was surprising.
Like I said earlier, I don't think your take is particularly hot though. I definitely don't think you're a monster.
'picking up on vibes' = I'm going to insert my own interpretation of what you meant here even though you didn't say or imply it.
yeah dlew was explicitly trying to understand why people were reacting the they we did and this is an attempt to explain it. I could have the wrong interpretation but we are having a valid dialogue IMO! :dunno:
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 02:23:02 PM
Okay, let me try to simplify it. Based on your postings ITT, the vibe I’m getting from you could be boiled down to “you guys are overreacting, the safety/wellbeing/civil rights/etc. of the LGBTQ community are in no more peril today than they were 10 years ago”. That, coupled with the fact that you seem nonplussed at the (in my opinion) vile treatment they are receiving…with a smack of “the reason it doesn’t bother me is because I would prefer they were not around. I’m not saying I would actively take any measures to see that come to fruition, but hey if it happens…that’s fine with me”Oh gee, thanks for simplifying it for me. To be clear, you drew all that from the following exchange?
If ^all that is not, in fact, your sentiment or at least a good approximation, then yes I do owe you an apology, and I am sorry. I would encourage you in the future to maybe try to be more thoughtful with your word choice because I think for the most part I am pretty good at reading for comprehension and understanding intent, and the above was how I am interpreting what you are saying
That exchange gave you "the vibe" that "I would prefer [lgbt people] were not around"? I'm a "proudly stupid" bigot on the wrong side of history?that would surprise me quite a bit.Also, I expect opposition to gay marriage to start to shift in a similar way as folks like libsoftiktok continue to have larger platformsA bit surprised to see more people opposing trans participation in non-sex-assigned at birth sports compared to 2021.The anti-trans campaigns really didn't get going until like 2022 and they have been pretty effective. Plus Lia Thomas won the medal until 2022.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940
I saw that and thought the question sucked. Not all sports should have the same participation requirements
I'll do my best to "be more thoughtful with my word choice," you weirdo.
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 02:30:26 PM
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 02:40:54 PM
Post by: mocat on June 15, 2023, 02:43:07 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 02:43:52 PM
In the future, if a statistic on any lgbt issue surprises me, I'll just keep it to myself.
Maybe you should ask yourself what mich and BAC were asking themselves: "Why does this surprise Dlew?"
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 02:55:45 PM
thanks. i'll meditate on that.In the future, if a statistic on any lgbt issue surprises me, I'll just keep it to myself.
Maybe you should ask yourself what mich and BAC were asking themselves: "Why does this surprise Dlew?"
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 02:57:04 PM
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 03:00:58 PM
I can’t help but notice your response was “THATS what you interpreted from what I said?” Rather than confirming or denying. It’s a pretty common tactic for people who try to avoid answering a question. But since we’re just putting all the cards on the table, was I accurate in my assessment? Do you think concerns about the safety and civil rights of the LGBTQ community are overblown? Are they in no more peril today than they were 10 years ago? Would you have any objection to the practice of making life as miserable as possible for those people being codified?You don't get to call me a stupid bigot before asking what I think on the topic.
Post by: michigancat on June 15, 2023, 03:14:38 PM
I can’t help but notice your response was “THATS what you interpreted from what I said?” Rather than confirming or denying. It’s a pretty common tactic for people who try to avoid answering a question. But since we’re just putting all the cards on the table, was I accurate in my assessment? Do you think concerns about the safety and civil rights of the LGBTQ community are overblown? Are they in no more peril today than they were 10 years ago? Would you have any objection to the practice of making life as miserable as possible for those people being codified?
FWIW, I don't think dlew deserves this. He's a thoughtful person.
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 03:39:40 PM
thanks. i'll meditate on that.In the future, if a statistic on any lgbt issue surprises me, I'll just keep it to myself.
Maybe you should ask yourself what mich and BAC were asking themselves: "Why does this surprise Dlew?"
Kind of a dickish response. I'm genuinely interested in your answer.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 03:59:53 PM
I can’t help but notice your response was “THATS what you interpreted from what I said?” Rather than confirming or denying. It’s a pretty common tactic for people who try to avoid answering a question. But since we’re just putting all the cards on the table, was I accurate in my assessment? Do you think concerns about the safety and civil rights of the LGBTQ community are overblown? Are they in no more peril today than they were 10 years ago? Would you have any objection to the practice of making life as miserable as possible for those people being codified?You don't get to call me a stupid bigot before asking what I think on the topic.
Ok. So still not answering the question. Like I said, if I clocked you wrong then I offer you my sincerest apology.
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 04:11:59 PM
Why would this hypothetical future statistic would surprise me? Because for decades gay marriage sentiment has been growing in the US. Maybe it will plateau or reverse course in light of the current rhetoric, but it's a pretty established trend, so I don't think it's necessarily likely, let alone a given. If you guys think it's a stone-cold given, that's fine too. You could be right. It was just an off-hand comment.thanks. i'll meditate on that.In the future, if a statistic on any lgbt issue surprises me, I'll just keep it to myself.
Maybe you should ask yourself what mich and BAC were asking themselves: "Why does this surprise Dlew?"
Kind of a dickish response. I'm genuinely interested in your answer.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 04:20:49 PM
I can’t help but notice your response was “THATS what you interpreted from what I said?” Rather than confirming or denying. It’s a pretty common tactic for people who try to avoid answering a question. But since we’re just putting all the cards on the table, was I accurate in my assessment? Do you think concerns about the safety and civil rights of the LGBTQ community are overblown? Are they in no more peril today than they were 10 years ago? Would you have any objection to the practice of making life as miserable as possible for those people being codified?
FWIW, I don't think dlew deserves this. He's a thoughtful person.
I know he’s a thoughtful person. Most of the stuff he posts I find agreeable/entertaining. However, it would appear we are diametrically opposed when it comes to the topic of whether or not it’s okay to legislate a group of people out of existence just because I disagree with how they want to exist on this planet. Or at least I suspect we are diametrically opposed. For whatever reason he will neither confirm nor deny.
Post by: michigancat on June 15, 2023, 05:22:53 PM
Why would this hypothetical future statistic would surprise me? Because for decades gay marriage sentiment has been growing in the US. Maybe it will plateau or reverse course in light of the current rhetoric, but it's a pretty established trend, so I don't think it's necessarily likely, let alone a given. If you guys think it's a stone-cold given, that's fine too. You could be right. It was just an off-hand comment.thanks. i'll meditate on that.In the future, if a statistic on any lgbt issue surprises me, I'll just keep it to myself.
Maybe you should ask yourself what mich and BAC were asking themselves: "Why does this surprise Dlew?"
Kind of a dickish response. I'm genuinely interested in your answer.
Do you remember anyone calling a gay teacher a groomer sooner than like, last year? Do you remember someone boycotting any brands, much less multiple for selling pride merchandise? Have leading political candidates ran with anti-LGBTQ measures as a top policy priority since W?
Things are changing
Post by: star seed 7 on June 15, 2023, 06:21:07 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 06:31:11 PM
I am pro-dlew posting his thoughts so stop being a weirdo to him
You need to @ people, because I've attempted to be nothing but civil.
Post by: star seed 7 on June 15, 2023, 06:32:07 PM
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 06:39:51 PM
Nope. Nonetheless, I think homophobia has existed for a long time both in the political and non-political realms. Maybe this new, more aggressive flavor (which I think is mostly directed towards trans issues) will resonate w/r/t gay marriage, but I just think that’s something so firmly entrenched at this point that when people get going on the GROOMER! tirades, they’re not really considering gay marriage.Why would this hypothetical future statistic would surprise me? Because for decades gay marriage sentiment has been growing in the US. Maybe it will plateau or reverse course in light of the current rhetoric, but it's a pretty established trend, so I don't think it's necessarily likely, let alone a given. If you guys think it's a stone-cold given, that's fine too. You could be right. It was just an off-hand comment.thanks. i'll meditate on that.In the future, if a statistic on any lgbt issue surprises me, I'll just keep it to myself.
Maybe you should ask yourself what mich and BAC were asking themselves: "Why does this surprise Dlew?"
Kind of a dickish response. I'm genuinely interested in your answer.
Do you remember anyone calling a gay teacher a groomer sooner than like, last year? Do you remember someone boycotting any brands, much less multiple for selling pride merchandise? Have leading political candidates ran with anti-LGBTQ measures as a top policy priority since W?
Things are changing
Again, could definitely be wrong here. We’ll see eventually.
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 06:51:08 PM
Disclaimer: none of this is to say I approve of the rhetoric.
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 07:04:37 PM
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 07:09:31 PM
We have a sitting SCOTUS Justice who wrote in a concurring opinion to Dobbs that he wants to do away with Constitutional protections for gay people to marry or even to have gay sex in the privacy of their homes. Granted, he was silent on the question of interracial marriage.I’m not sure Thomas’s concurrences are an accurate barometer of public sentiment.
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 07:11:44 PM
We have a sitting SCOTUS Justice who wrote in a concurring opinion to Dobbs that he wants to do away with Constitutional protections for gay people to marry or even to have gay sex in the privacy of their homes. Granted, he was silent on the question of interracial marriage.I’m not sure Thomas’s concurrences are an accurate barometer of public sentiment.
I saw the quick edit :Carl:
Post by: DQ12 on June 15, 2023, 07:20:01 PM
:shakesfist:We have a sitting SCOTUS Justice who wrote in a concurring opinion to Dobbs that he wants to do away with Constitutional protections for gay people to marry or even to have gay sex in the privacy of their homes. Granted, he was silent on the question of interracial marriage.I’m not sure Thomas’s concurrences are an accurate barometer of public sentiment.
I saw the quick edit :Carl:
Post by: CHONGS on June 15, 2023, 07:40:54 PM
It's also a key part of the bigger fight to reinstate the right to legally discriminate, which I see at the ultimate goal of many on the right.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 07:48:56 PM
@bac
Hey man people can say and feel whatever they want. I was just expressing that I strongly disagree with that particular sentiment. I’m not PIing anyone.
Post by: Spracne on June 15, 2023, 08:37:43 PM
Post by: Pete on June 15, 2023, 08:53:31 PM
LGBTQ stuff is getting used as a wedge issue by Republicans for a reason. This thread is great example why.Agree on all of this
It's also a key part of the bigger fight to reinstate the right to legally discriminate, which I see at the ultimate goal of many on the right.
Post by: mocat on June 15, 2023, 09:19:45 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on June 15, 2023, 09:35:04 PM
@bac
Hey man people can say and feel whatever they want. I was just expressing that I strongly disagree with that particular sentiment. I’m not PIing anyone.
You know what I always say, "stop pv$$y footing around"
Post by: steve dave on June 15, 2023, 10:04:54 PM
LGBTQ stuff is getting used as a wedge issue by Republicans for a reason. This thread is great example why.Yes
It's also a key part of the bigger fight to reinstate the right to legally discriminate, which I see at the ultimate goal of many on the right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 15, 2023, 10:40:45 PM
@bac
Hey man people can say and feel whatever they want. I was just expressing that I strongly disagree with that particular sentiment. I’m not PIing anyone.
You know what I always say, "stop pv$$y footing around"
I feel like you’re trying to exploit the fact that I’m a tiny d fanboi now
Post by: MakeItRain on June 15, 2023, 11:47:44 PM
LGBTQ stuff is getting used as a wedge issue by Republicans for a reason. This thread is great example why.
It's also a key part of the bigger fight to reinstate the right to legally discriminate, which I see at the ultimate goal of many on the right.
Bingo
Post by: MakeItRain on June 15, 2023, 11:54:57 PM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
The entirety of recorded human history isn’t really that long I mean the universe is like 14 billion years old for cryin out loud
You're trying to be cute here but your unintentionally and incorrectly proving his point. "Girls with penises" is not new because it's non-existent. FTM gender affirming surgery isn't performed on minors anywhere in the world. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health does not recommend bottom surgery on anyone under 18 and only allows for top surgery in teens in very specific situations.
We shouldn't crap post when discussing all of the dangerous misinformation about trans people, particularly when they're attempting to illustrate what they call grooming and indoctrination.
I think that "girls with penises" was referring to mtf trans people who haven't had surgery.
Maybe. Either way, that's very rough ridin' gross language to use, particularly about children.
Post by: steve dave on June 16, 2023, 08:45:26 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 08:50:46 AM
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 16, 2023, 08:56:38 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 16, 2023, 08:56:55 AM
-Some states banning on demand gender reassignment procedures on minors as requested by adults
-Some states banning on demand hormone gender treatments on minors as requested by adults
-Some states banning adults sexing up the kids
-Some states saying that biological males have to compete against biological males on the field and courts of play
-Some states not allowing biological adult males to go into cis-gendered female dressing rooms and shower with the 12 year old girls
Post by: _33 on June 16, 2023, 08:59:55 AM
that would surprise me quite a bit.
Did you hear about gays accused of being groomers between like 20 and 3 years ago?
Do you ever remember Pride Month getting this much blowback?
Republicans won't stop with anti trans crap, they'll come after gay marriage soon
I mean, adults demanding law that require visual genital inspection of children seem to be pretty damn new also.
Well, girls with penises is pretty new so it actually makes sense for that law to not have been on the books for long.
Define "pretty new".
The entirety of recorded human history isn’t really that long I mean the universe is like 14 billion years old for cryin out loud
You're trying to be cute here but your unintentionally and incorrectly proving his point. "Girls with penises" is not new because it's non-existent. FTM gender affirming surgery isn't performed on minors anywhere in the world. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health does not recommend bottom surgery on anyone under 18 and only allows for top surgery in teens in very specific situations.
We shouldn't crap post when discussing all of the dangerous misinformation about trans people, particularly when they're attempting to illustrate what they call grooming and indoctrination.
I think that "girls with penises" was referring to mtf trans people who haven't had surgery.
Maybe. Either way, that's very rough ridin' gross language to use, particularly about children.
wtf
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 09:00:56 AM
Post by: mocat on June 16, 2023, 09:02:33 AM
Feel like your guys social media/news outlets/smart phones have their algorithm for you pretty dialed in.
yeah guys maybe try not giving a crap?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 16, 2023, 09:03:39 AM
dax WRT your last bullet point, in which state(s) is it legal for adults (regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth) to shower with 12 year old girls?
I posted articles on this very blog BAC.
Post by: michigancat on June 16, 2023, 09:12:05 AM
great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 09:15:27 AM
dax WRT your last bullet point, in which state(s) is it legal for adults (regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth) to shower with 12 year old girls?
I posted articles on this very blog BAC.
The fact that i am able to form a cogent sentence is evidence that I don't read all of your gish gallop postings. I doubt very much anyone here does. Maybe you could help me find those links (i am very slow, always a lap down or more)
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 16, 2023, 09:22:28 AM
Keyboards are a helluva drugFeel like your guys social media/news outlets/smart phones have their algorithm for you pretty dialed in.
yeah guys maybe try not giving a crap?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 16, 2023, 09:26:40 AM
dax WRT your last bullet point, in which state(s) is it legal for adults (regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth) to shower with 12 year old girls?
I posted articles on this very blog BAC.
The fact that i am able to form a cogent sentence is evidence that I don't read all of your gish gallop postings. I doubt very much anyone here does. Maybe you could help me find those links (i am very slow, always a lap down or more)
#blueanon/#blueanongE lost their mind over the story about the woman who reported the trans man in California who she said was in the women's locker room watching minor cis-gendered girls changing in out of their swimsuits. She was just a Karen and the cis-gendered male TERFbashers (unilaterally declared TERF's BTW) made sure she knew that. The trans man by policy is allowed to use the women's dressing room.
I posted the article about the then 17 year old cis-gendered female swimmer in Santee, CA who complained about the tran-man walking around naked in the women's dressing room, allowed by policy. Needless to say the cis-gendered male tough guy TERF Bashers (TERF's as unilaterally declared by them) didn't take very kindly to the young woman's complaints. How dare these cis-gendered women complain about the biological man in their most private of spaces!!
The fact that you have deluded yourself into believing that you post cognizant thoughts is :lol: :lol: :lol: . You are constantly 5 laps down and 95% of your posts are utterly nonsensical and your attempts to stay seated at the cool kids table are just :lol: :lol:
Post by: catastrophe on June 16, 2023, 09:27:22 AM
And also just insane that the state legislature feels the need to get involved in how kindergartners are allowed to play sports?great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
Even if it was well meaning (it’s not) this type of legislation is worse than the stupid steroids in baseball congressional hearings.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 09:29:24 AM
great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 16, 2023, 09:31:35 AM
great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 09:34:08 AM
dax WRT your last bullet point, in which state(s) is it legal for adults (regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth) to shower with 12 year old girls?
I posted articles on this very blog BAC.
The fact that i am able to form a cogent sentence is evidence that I don't read all of your gish gallop postings. I doubt very much anyone here does. Maybe you could help me find those links (i am very slow, always a lap down or more)
#blueanon/#blueanongE lost their mind over the story about the woman who reported the trans man in California who she said was in the women's locker room watching minor cis-gendered girls changing in out of their swimsuits. She was just a Karen and the cis-gendered male TERFbashers (unilaterally declared TERF's BTW) made sure she knew that. The trans man by policy is allowed to use the women's dressing room.
I posted the article about the then 17 year old cis-gendered female swimmer in Santee, CA who complained about the tran-man walking around naked in the women's dressing room, allowed by policy. Needless to say the cis-gendered male tough guy TERF Bashers (TERF's as unilaterally declared by them) didn't take very kindly to the young woman's complaints. How dare these cis-gendered women complain about the biological man in their most private of spaces!!
The fact that you have deluded yourself into believing that you post cognizant thoughts is :lol: :lol: :lol: . You are constantly 5 laps down and 95% of your posts are utterly nonsensical and your attempts to stay seated at the cool kids table are just :lol: :lol:
if i was worried about having a seat at the cool kids table i would hold my tongue instead of picking fights with guys like dlew. I'm just me.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 16, 2023, 09:35:37 AM
dax WRT your last bullet point, in which state(s) is it legal for adults (regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth) to shower with 12 year old girls?
I posted articles on this very blog BAC.
The fact that i am able to form a cogent sentence is evidence that I don't read all of your gish gallop postings. I doubt very much anyone here does. Maybe you could help me find those links (i am very slow, always a lap down or more)
#blueanon/#blueanongE lost their mind over the story about the woman who reported the trans man in California who she said was in the women's locker room watching minor cis-gendered girls changing in out of their swimsuits. She was just a Karen and the cis-gendered male TERFbashers (unilaterally declared TERF's BTW) made sure she knew that. The trans man by policy is allowed to use the women's dressing room.
I posted the article about the then 17 year old cis-gendered female swimmer in Santee, CA who complained about the tran-man walking around naked in the women's dressing room, allowed by policy. Needless to say the cis-gendered male tough guy TERF Bashers (TERF's as unilaterally declared by them) didn't take very kindly to the young woman's complaints. How dare these cis-gendered women complain about the biological man in their most private of spaces!!
The fact that you have deluded yourself into believing that you post cognizant thoughts is :lol: :lol: :lol: . You are constantly 5 laps down and 95% of your posts are utterly nonsensical and your attempts to stay seated at the cool kids table are just :lol: :lol:
if i was worried about having a seat at the cool kids table i would hold my tongue instead of picking fights with guys like dlew. I'm just me.
Gibberish about nothing #onbrand
Post by: michigancat on June 16, 2023, 09:39:17 AM
great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
They are either banned from being trans or from participating in sports. Really what Republicans want is to ban them from being trans, the sports bans are just an easy signal to trans kids that they aren't welcome in Texas or other states that ban them from participating in sports.
Post by: catastrophe on June 16, 2023, 09:40:23 AM
Basically if a school-based sport says, “boys basketball” or “girls soccer,” you can’t play it unless your birth certificate matches whatever the designation is.great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Girls can play “boys” sports IF there is no girls-only offering.
Unless I’m misreading, it goes way beyond even the trans issue because you hear all the time about girls in grade school competing in boys’ sports just because they want the extra level of competition. Ironically it seems like this kills that for the sake of protecting the sanctity of women’s sports.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/873/billtext/pdf/HB00025F.pdf#navpanes=0
Post by: sonofdaxjones on June 16, 2023, 09:43:17 AM
Basically if a school-based sport says, “boys basketball” or “girls soccer,” you can’t play it unless your birth certificate matches whatever the designation is.great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Girls can play “boys” sports IF there is no girls-only offering.
Unless I’m misreading, it goes way beyond even the trans issue because you hear all the time about girls in grade school competing in boys’ sports just because they want the extra level of competition. Ironically it seems like this kills that for the sake of protecting the sanctity of women’s sports.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/873/billtext/pdf/HB00025F.pdf#navpanes=0
That's a long way of saying that no one is being banned from participating in sports and no one is being banned from being trans.
It's a totally fallacy that is being perpetrated by insane lunatics on this blog and elsewhere in society.
Post by: catastrophe on June 16, 2023, 09:49:25 AM
I disagree, but even taking that as true, do you agree with me that the legislation limits elite females’ ability to compete at their desired level of competition?Basically if a school-based sport says, “boys basketball” or “girls soccer,” you can’t play it unless your birth certificate matches whatever the designation is.great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Girls can play “boys” sports IF there is no girls-only offering.
Unless I’m misreading, it goes way beyond even the trans issue because you hear all the time about girls in grade school competing in boys’ sports just because they want the extra level of competition. Ironically it seems like this kills that for the sake of protecting the sanctity of women’s sports.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/873/billtext/pdf/HB00025F.pdf#navpanes=0
That's a long way of saying that no one is being banned from participating in sports and no one is being banned from being trans.
It's a totally fallacy that is being perpetrated by insane lunatics on this blog and elsewhere in society.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 09:51:08 AM
Basically if a school-based sport says, “boys basketball” or “girls soccer,” you can’t play it unless your birth certificate matches whatever the designation is.great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Girls can play “boys” sports IF there is no girls-only offering.
Unless I’m misreading, it goes way beyond even the trans issue because you hear all the time about girls in grade school competing in boys’ sports just because they want the extra level of competition. Ironically it seems like this kills that for the sake of protecting the sanctity of women’s sports.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/873/billtext/pdf/HB00025F.pdf#navpanes=0
That's a long way of saying that no one is being banned from participating in sports.
yes dax unfortunately some people are capable of thinking 3 steps ahead...seeing the writing on the wall as it were. Does it make ANY sense whatsoever to be passing legislation about K-12 kids participation on certain sports teams? Is this not a statistically insignificant issue anywhere in the country? I can appreciate that you want to be a good little party member and applaud these laws, finally doing something about this very real issue impacting so so many american children.
Some people can see this for what it is. It is just another rung on the "trans people are not welcome here" ladder. That's what this is about. and you know that because i know you are not a complete idiot. But hey if they don't just come right out and explicitly state "we want it to be illegal to be trans" then how can we possibly infer such a thing?
Post by: Spracne on June 16, 2023, 11:51:30 AM
dax WRT your last bullet point, in which state(s) is it legal for adults (regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth) to shower with 12 year old girls?
I posted articles on this very blog BAC.
The fact that i am able to form a cogent sentence is evidence that I don't read all of your gish gallop postings. I doubt very much anyone here does. Maybe you could help me find those links (i am very slow, always a lap down or more)
#blueanon/#blueanongE lost their mind over the story about the woman who reported the trans man in California who she said was in the women's locker room watching minor cis-gendered girls changing in out of their swimsuits. She was just a Karen and the cis-gendered male TERFbashers (unilaterally declared TERF's BTW) made sure she knew that. The trans man by policy is allowed to use the women's dressing room.
I posted the article about the then 17 year old cis-gendered female swimmer in Santee, CA who complained about the tran-man walking around naked in the women's dressing room, allowed by policy. Needless to say the cis-gendered male tough guy TERF Bashers (TERF's as unilaterally declared by them) didn't take very kindly to the young woman's complaints. How dare these cis-gendered women complain about the biological man in their most private of spaces!!
The fact that you have deluded yourself into believing that you post cognizant thoughts is :lol: :lol: :lol: . You are constantly 5 laps down and 95% of your posts are utterly nonsensical and your attempts to stay seated at the cool kids table are just :lol: :lol:
Wait, so was it a trans male or a biological male in the women's locker room? I know I'm easily confused, etc. Or were you using the phrase "tran-man" as some sort of insult?
Post by: _33 on June 16, 2023, 08:03:46 PM
Basically if a school-based sport says, “boys basketball” or “girls soccer,” you can’t play it unless your birth certificate matches whatever the designation is.great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Girls can play “boys” sports IF there is no girls-only offering.
Unless I’m misreading, it goes way beyond even the trans issue because you hear all the time about girls in grade school competing in boys’ sports just because they want the extra level of competition. Ironically it seems like this kills that for the sake of protecting the sanctity of women’s sports.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/873/billtext/pdf/HB00025F.pdf#navpanes=0
That's a long way of saying that no one is being banned from participating in sports.
yes dax unfortunately some people are capable of thinking 3 steps ahead...seeing the writing on the wall as it were. Does it make ANY sense whatsoever to be passing legislation about K-12 kids participation on certain sports teams? Is this not a statistically insignificant issue anywhere in the country? I can appreciate that you want to be a good little party member and applaud these laws, finally doing something about this very real issue impacting so so many american children.
Some people can see this for what it is. It is just another rung on the "trans people are not welcome here" ladder. That's what this is about. and you know that because i know you are not a complete idiot. But hey if they don't just come right out and explicitly state "we want it to be illegal to be trans" then how can we possibly infer such a thing?
Just playing devils advocate here but perhaps the people making the laws are seeing the ‘writing on the wall’… as it were.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 08:20:30 PM
Basically if a school-based sport says, “boys basketball” or “girls soccer,” you can’t play it unless your birth certificate matches whatever the designation is.great news for the state of Texas, hero/patriot Greg Abbot has signed into law senate bill 15, expanding the ban on trans athletes participating on any team other than what they were assigned at birth, from K-12 to now include college sports. Finally cleansing the State of this scourge.Honestly I take less issue with college athletes. It's still wrong if the NCAA allows it, but it's less cruel than having high school kids playing sports that don't matter at all
Honestly, I did not see this coming (who could have?), and I am very surprised.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/15/politics/texas-transgender-college-athletes-ban/index.html#:~:text=Texas%20Republican%20Gov.%20Greg%20Abbott,schools%20from%20doing%20the%20same.)
yeah i agree, the K-12 ban is exponentially more cruel. I was just making note of another instance of "thing A happening" for the ledger.
Using real words, what are these K-12 students being banned from exactly? Are they being banned from participating in sports?
Girls can play “boys” sports IF there is no girls-only offering.
Unless I’m misreading, it goes way beyond even the trans issue because you hear all the time about girls in grade school competing in boys’ sports just because they want the extra level of competition. Ironically it seems like this kills that for the sake of protecting the sanctity of women’s sports.
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/873/billtext/pdf/HB00025F.pdf#navpanes=0
That's a long way of saying that no one is being banned from participating in sports.
yes dax unfortunately some people are capable of thinking 3 steps ahead...seeing the writing on the wall as it were. Does it make ANY sense whatsoever to be passing legislation about K-12 kids participation on certain sports teams? Is this not a statistically insignificant issue anywhere in the country? I can appreciate that you want to be a good little party member and applaud these laws, finally doing something about this very real issue impacting so so many american children.
Some people can see this for what it is. It is just another rung on the "trans people are not welcome here" ladder. That's what this is about. and you know that because i know you are not a complete idiot. But hey if they don't just come right out and explicitly state "we want it to be illegal to be trans" then how can we possibly infer such a thing?
Just playing devils advocate here but perhaps the people making the laws are seeing the ‘writing on the wall’… as it were.
Go on
Post by: steve dave on June 16, 2023, 09:45:31 PM
https://news.gallup.com/poll/507230/fewer-say-sex-relations-morally-acceptable.aspx?fbclid=IwAR22c5oaYaoLIyqc_c0MrM91uzuojya0hN5cF1SuxqSLKOpYgUzDPeTpxfE
Post by: steve dave on June 16, 2023, 09:50:32 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 09:54:19 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 16, 2023, 09:55:37 PM
jesus christ
https://news.gallup.com/poll/507230/fewer-say-sex-relations-morally-acceptable.aspx?fbclid=IwAR22c5oaYaoLIyqc_c0MrM91uzuojya0hN5cF1SuxqSLKOpYgUzDPeTpxfE
I'd be quite surprised if this were true.
Post by: catastrophe on June 16, 2023, 10:03:17 PM
I will say this: it’s insane for anyone to assume the country MUST end up 100% on the “morally acceptable” side of an issue like gay marriage, which has been the topic of scrutiny for thousands of years.jesus christ
https://news.gallup.com/poll/507230/fewer-say-sex-relations-morally-acceptable.aspx?fbclid=IwAR22c5oaYaoLIyqc_c0MrM91uzuojya0hN5cF1SuxqSLKOpYgUzDPeTpxfE
I'd be quite surprised if this were true.
Practically speaking, we all know this latest trend is the result of identity politics, but we need to be talking in terms of rights and respectful conversations rather than morals which are always going to be subjective.
Post by: Pete on June 16, 2023, 10:03:42 PM
Post by: nicname on June 16, 2023, 10:13:34 PM
https://twitter.com/sav_says_/status/1669864763348881409
Also, Hegelian dialectic rocking and a rolling
Post by: Spracne on June 16, 2023, 10:21:12 PM
I will say this: it’s insane for anyone to assume the country MUST end up 100% on the “morally acceptable” side of an issue like gay marriage, which has been the topic of scrutiny for thousands of years.jesus christ
https://news.gallup.com/poll/507230/fewer-say-sex-relations-morally-acceptable.aspx?fbclid=IwAR22c5oaYaoLIyqc_c0MrM91uzuojya0hN5cF1SuxqSLKOpYgUzDPeTpxfE
I'd be quite surprised if this were true.
Practically speaking, we all know this latest trend is the result of identity politics, but we need to be talking in terms of rights and respectful conversations rather than morals which are always going to be subjective.
I'm concerned that gay marriage is not "deeply rooted in American history and tradition" enough to remain as a fundamental right, in light of this Court's dismantling of Roe, Casey, et al. All the Court needs to do is quote some old gay-bashing texts and bigoted statutes, and poof! There are at least 3 or 4 solid votes on the Court that believe the entire fundamental rights line of cases based on the 14th Amendment should never have been decided.
Post by: catastrophe on June 16, 2023, 10:41:07 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 16, 2023, 10:49:55 PM
It’s a realistic possibility at this point. But I don’t think questions in terms of “morally acceptable” are a good barometer.
Judges exist in society. One way or another, public sentiment on issues (including the morality thereof) trickles into their rulings. The rest is window-dressing. But on a philosophical level, I agree with your point.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 16, 2023, 11:06:33 PM
But echoing what chongs posted a couple pages back, the cause for concern is laws that allow for selective discrimination, which is kind of like, the gop’s whole thing, the last few years.
Post by: Tobias on June 16, 2023, 11:47:53 PM
I'd be quite surprised if this were true.
:lol:
Post by: MakeItRain on June 16, 2023, 11:58:57 PM
Feel like your guys social media/news outlets/smart phones have their algorithm for you pretty dialed in.
Are you really so stupid that you're trying to use ignorance of current events as a flex? Are you 13 years old?
Post by: michigancat on June 17, 2023, 10:55:37 AM
Feel like your guys social media/news outlets/smart phones have their algorithm for you pretty dialed in.
Are you really so stupid that you're trying to use ignorance of current events as a flex? Are you 13 years old?
He's also proud of not caring
Post by: Pete on June 17, 2023, 07:57:06 PM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 17, 2023, 08:40:18 PM
Too busy livin.. sorry they’ve got you all riled all up. Maybe take it to the signs of getting old thread.Feel like your guys social media/news outlets/smart phones have their algorithm for you pretty dialed in.
Are you really so stupid that you're trying to use ignorance of current events as a flex? Are you 13 years old?
He's also proud of not caring
Post by: Justwin on June 17, 2023, 09:06:06 PM
I used to adhere to the maxim “you can’t legislate morality” but ultimately that’s how we make all laws…bc it is unacceptable for that behavior to be tolerated, as spracs articulated far more eloquently than I can. I think the nuance is when a thing is only illegal for some. Like with murder it doesn’t matter who you are, you are not allowed to murder anyone. But like, marriage, or sexual congress…oh well that’s fine because you’re a man and a woman, but 2 dudes? Absolutely not, illegal.
But echoing what chongs posted a couple pages back, the cause for concern is laws that allow for selective discrimination, which is kind of like, the gop’s whole thing, the last few years.
In your mind, if same-sex marriage was made illegal, what groups of people would be allowed to participate in same-sex marriages since you seem to think this would be only be illegal for some?
Post by: catastrophe on June 17, 2023, 09:15:35 PM
Holy crap I thought you were smarter than that, haha.I used to adhere to the maxim “you can’t legislate morality” but ultimately that’s how we make all laws…bc it is unacceptable for that behavior to be tolerated, as spracs articulated far more eloquently than I can. I think the nuance is when a thing is only illegal for some. Like with murder it doesn’t matter who you are, you are not allowed to murder anyone. But like, marriage, or sexual congress…oh well that’s fine because you’re a man and a woman, but 2 dudes? Absolutely not, illegal.
But echoing what chongs posted a couple pages back, the cause for concern is laws that allow for selective discrimination, which is kind of like, the gop’s whole thing, the last few years.
In your mind, if same-sex marriage was made illegal, what groups of people would be allowed to participate in same-sex marriages since you seem to think this would be only be illegal for some?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 17, 2023, 11:22:11 PM
I didn’tHoly crap I thought you were smarter than that, haha.I used to adhere to the maxim “you can’t legislate morality” but ultimately that’s how we make all laws…bc it is unacceptable for that behavior to be tolerated, as spracs articulated far more eloquently than I can. I think the nuance is when a thing is only illegal for some. Like with murder it doesn’t matter who you are, you are not allowed to murder anyone. But like, marriage, or sexual congress…oh well that’s fine because you’re a man and a woman, but 2 dudes? Absolutely not, illegal.
But echoing what chongs posted a couple pages back, the cause for concern is laws that allow for selective discrimination, which is kind of like, the gop’s whole thing, the last few years.
In your mind, if same-sex marriage was made illegal, what groups of people would be allowed to participate in same-sex marriages since you seem to think this would be only be illegal for some?
Post by: star seed 7 on June 18, 2023, 01:08:54 AM
Post by: Justwin on June 18, 2023, 12:23:37 PM
Post by: catastrophe on June 18, 2023, 12:55:47 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 18, 2023, 01:54:44 PM
I do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
Post by: Justwin on June 18, 2023, 04:01:18 PM
I do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
I do not think such a law would further an important government interest. However, I don't think it's the kind of thing a court should find the law invalid on discrimination grounds; perhaps on freedom of association grounds.
Post by: Justwin on June 18, 2023, 04:03:31 PM
Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
Post by: Spracne on June 18, 2023, 04:06:58 PM
I do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
I do not think such a law would further an important government interest. However, I don't think it's the kind of thing a court should find the law invalid on discrimination grounds; perhaps on freedom of association grounds.
Well, you've just admitted it would violate the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause, which addresses discrimination, so ...
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 18, 2023, 05:05:47 PM
I do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
I do not think such a law would further an important government interest. However, I don't think it's the kind of thing a court should find the law invalid on discrimination grounds; perhaps on freedom of association grounds.
Well, you've just admitted it would violate the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause, which addresses discrimination, so ...
Ipso facto, as they say
Post by: catastrophe on June 18, 2023, 05:59:09 PM
Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
Post by: Justwin on June 18, 2023, 05:59:15 PM
I do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
I do not think such a law would further an important government interest. However, I don't think it's the kind of thing a court should find the law invalid on discrimination grounds; perhaps on freedom of association grounds.
Well, you've just admitted it would violate the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause, which addresses discrimination, so ...
I think it's more of a 1st Amendment thing than an Equal Protection thing.
Post by: Justwin on June 18, 2023, 06:01:15 PM
Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
What do you think discrimination means?
It's quite possible that I just have a much narrower definition than you do. I'm also not limited by what courts may have previously ruled in forming my personal opinions.
Post by: catastrophe on June 18, 2023, 06:09:54 PM
I’m actually curious what your definition is, cause you appear to be stuck in the “separate but equal” zone where there’s no discrimination so long as some form of bathroom/water fountain is available to each race.Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
What do you think discrimination means?
It's quite possible that I just have a much narrower definition than you do. I'm also not limited by what courts may have previously ruled in forming my personal opinions.
Post by: Spracne on June 18, 2023, 06:20:34 PM
Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
What do you think discrimination means?
It's quite possible that I just have a much narrower definition than you do. I'm also not limited by what courts may have previously ruled in forming my personal opinions.
"I am not bound by the law when discussing the law."
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 18, 2023, 08:34:40 PM
less government, great call spracI do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
Post by: Spracne on June 18, 2023, 08:43:45 PM
less government, great call spracI do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
This is literally the "intermediate scrutiny" test applied by courts to laws that discriminate on the basis of sex. Note that the verb "to discriminate" has two meanings. It can mean "to differentiate" or "to subjugate". But in Constitutional jurisprudence, the law is clear that it means "to differentiate," also known as anti-classificationism. Classifications based on sex, as in this hypothetical, receive "intermediate scrutiny," which is a type of heightened scrutiny. I merely typed out the Constitutional question/test that would be applied to such a hypothetical law. It's not my fault you don't know dick about crap.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 18, 2023, 09:51:49 PM
Great reply chat gptless government, great call spracI do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
This is literally the "intermediate scrutiny" test applied by courts to laws that discriminate on the basis of sex. Note that the verb "to discriminate" has two meanings. It can mean "to differentiate" or "to subjugate". But in Constitutional jurisprudence, the law is clear that it means "to differentiate," also known as anti-classificationism. Classifications based on sex, as in this hypothetical, receive "intermediate scrutiny," which is a type of heightened scrutiny. I merely typed out the Constitutional question/test that would be applied to such a hypothetical law. It's not my fault you don't know dick about crap.
Post by: Spracne on June 18, 2023, 10:35:40 PM
Post by: DaBigTrain on June 18, 2023, 10:54:52 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 18, 2023, 11:17:22 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on June 18, 2023, 11:21:08 PM
Post by: OB_Won on June 18, 2023, 11:44:56 PM
Like if I wanted to, right now I could just go pop into the cooking thread and tell AST he doesn’t know jack crap about cooking. What a time to be alive!No better example of that than covid-19.
Post by: MakeItRain on June 19, 2023, 06:10:09 AM
less government, great call spracI do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
This is literally the "intermediate scrutiny" test applied by courts to laws that discriminate on the basis of sex. Note that the verb "to discriminate" has two meanings. It can mean "to differentiate" or "to subjugate". But in Constitutional jurisprudence, the law is clear that it means "to differentiate," also known as anti-classificationism. Classifications based on sex, as in this hypothetical, receive "intermediate scrutiny," which is a type of heightened scrutiny. I merely typed out the Constitutional question/test that would be applied to such a hypothetical law. It's not my fault you don't know dick about crap.
Zero chance he understood that
Post by: catastrophe on June 19, 2023, 11:08:51 AM
To advance the ball here, my definition of discrimination (for purposes of this discussion) is any limit placed on someone’s full enjoyment of a right or privilege based on an immutable characteristic.I’m actually curious what your definition is, cause you appear to be stuck in the “separate but equal” zone where there’s no discrimination so long as some form of bathroom/water fountain is available to each race.Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
What do you think discrimination means?
It's quite possible that I just have a much narrower definition than you do. I'm also not limited by what courts may have previously ruled in forming my personal opinions.
So for example in the case of mixed race businesses, I find it laughable that someone who does not strike me as a complete idiot comes in here with a straight face saying it would not be discriminatory to prohibit a black (or female) person from going into business with Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or any number of other billionaires in the US who are overwhelmingly white males.
Post by: Justwin on June 19, 2023, 01:16:37 PM
To advance the ball here, my definition of discrimination (for purposes of this discussion) is any limit placed on someone’s full enjoyment of a right or privilege based on an immutable characteristic.I’m actually curious what your definition is, cause you appear to be stuck in the “separate but equal” zone where there’s no discrimination so long as some form of bathroom/water fountain is available to each race.Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
What do you think discrimination means?
It's quite possible that I just have a much narrower definition than you do. I'm also not limited by what courts may have previously ruled in forming my personal opinions.
So for example in the case of mixed race businesses, I find it laughable that someone who does not strike me as a complete idiot comes in here with a straight face saying it would not be discriminatory to prohibit a black (or female) person from going into business with Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or any number of other billionaires in the US who are overwhelmingly white males.
It would also prevent a white person from going into business with Robert F. Smith, Oprah Winfrey or Michael Jordan. The last 14 words of your post are immaterial to me.
My definition of discrimination is if somebody else is allowed to do the behavior specified in the policy. If there was a law that said white people may not go into business with other races, that would be discriminatory.
Like I mentioned earlier, if I was a Supreme Court justice, I may very well find a law prohibiting mixed race business partnerships unconstitutional, but I would do so on First Amendment grounds rather than discrimination or Equal Protection Clause grounds.
Post by: Spracne on June 19, 2023, 01:50:43 PM
Post by: catastrophe on June 19, 2023, 02:43:34 PM
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?To advance the ball here, my definition of discrimination (for purposes of this discussion) is any limit placed on someone’s full enjoyment of a right or privilege based on an immutable characteristic.I’m actually curious what your definition is, cause you appear to be stuck in the “separate but equal” zone where there’s no discrimination so long as some form of bathroom/water fountain is available to each race.Well I appreciate you keeping with a logically consistent point and also confirming you have no idea what discrimination means lmao.Mixed race partnerships?
I knew this would be the next question. I would not call this discrimination. I also would not call a law prohibiting business partnerships between close family members discriminatory.
What do you think discrimination means?
It's quite possible that I just have a much narrower definition than you do. I'm also not limited by what courts may have previously ruled in forming my personal opinions.
So for example in the case of mixed race businesses, I find it laughable that someone who does not strike me as a complete idiot comes in here with a straight face saying it would not be discriminatory to prohibit a black (or female) person from going into business with Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or any number of other billionaires in the US who are overwhelmingly white males.
It would also prevent a white person from going into business with Robert F. Smith, Oprah Winfrey or Michael Jordan. The last 14 words of your post are immaterial to me.
My definition of discrimination is if somebody else is allowed to do the behavior specified in the policy. If there was a law that said white people may not go into business with other races, that would be discriminatory.
Like I mentioned earlier, if I was a Supreme Court justice, I may very well find a law prohibiting mixed race business partnerships unconstitutional, but I would do so on First Amendment grounds rather than discrimination or Equal Protection Clause grounds.
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on June 19, 2023, 09:21:43 PM
That sounds hypotheticalless government, great call spracI do not think a law banning same-sex business partnerships is discriminatory.
Do you think such a law furthers an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest?
This is literally the "intermediate scrutiny" test applied by courts to laws that discriminate on the basis of sex. Note that the verb "to discriminate" has two meanings. It can mean "to differentiate" or "to subjugate". But in Constitutional jurisprudence, the law is clear that it means "to differentiate," also known as anti-classificationism. Classifications based on sex, as in this hypothetical, receive "intermediate scrutiny," which is a type of heightened scrutiny. I merely typed out the Constitutional question/test that would be applied to such a hypothetical law. It's not my fault you don't know dick about crap.
Zero chance he understood that
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 12:00:23 PM
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Post by: Spracne on June 20, 2023, 12:28:50 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on June 20, 2023, 12:49:20 PM
(https://i.imgur.io/G7HnXXz_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Post by: catastrophe on June 20, 2023, 01:46:52 PM
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 01:54:52 PM
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 02:05:57 PM
:facepalm:
After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.
Post by: catastrophe on June 20, 2023, 02:09:39 PM
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 02:16:29 PM
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.
So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).
Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.
Thus this constitutes discrimination.
Post by: Spracne on June 20, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
:facepalm:
After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.
Why's that?
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 02:25:12 PM
:facepalm:
After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.
Why's that?
For the mixed race business partnership law, because the law is interfering with how one is running their business.
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 02:27:56 PM
:facepalm:
After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.
Why's that?
For Brown v Board, perhaps because school attendance is compulsory and forcing students to go to schools outside of their neighborhood is an undue burden.
Post by: catastrophe on June 20, 2023, 02:28:29 PM
I see. My quick searching didn’t really turn up any cases of that type of law actually being legislated (or declared unconstitutional) so I just thought you were generally referring to segregated towns, which I think to you does not constitute discrimination so long as whites also were not permitted to live with blacks.What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.
So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).
Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.
Thus this constitutes discrimination.
Post by: Justwin on June 20, 2023, 02:38:23 PM
I see. My quick searching didn’t really turn up any cases of that type of law actually being legislated (or declared unconstitutional) so I just thought you were generally referring to segregated towns, which I think to you does not constitute discrimination so long as whites also were not permitted to live with blacks.What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.
So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).
Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.
Thus this constitutes discrimination.
https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/exclusion_laws/#.WZMxAFGGOUk
This is one example I found with a quick search.
In your last example, I would find as the court did in Buchanan v. Warley.
Post by: Trim on June 20, 2023, 02:45:24 PM
Post by: Spracne on June 20, 2023, 02:49:55 PM
:facepalm:
After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.
Why's that?
For the mixed race business partnership law, because the law is interfering with how one is running their business.
Yeah, I'm sorry, but I just can't have an intelligent conversation with you about the 14th Amendment. But I'll give it one more shot.
Under established Constitutional precedent, ANY legal classification based upon, among other things, race and gender are subject to heightened scrutiny pursuant to the Equal Protection Clause. I already recited the test for "intermediate scrutiny" that applies to classifications based on sex. Classifications based on race go to the core of the very reason the 14th Amendment exists. As such, they are subject to "strict scrutiny," which has been called "strict in theory, but fatal in fact." That is because any legal classification based upon race is considered immediately suspect.
In order to survive strict scrutiny, the applicable government must prove that the "discriminatory" law (again, remember "to discriminate" has multiple meanings) is (1) narrowly tailored (2) to serve a compelling government interest. Courts typically start with the second "compelling interest" prong, and usually never even have to reach the narrow tailoring prong. That is because, under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, the law abhors classifications on the basis of race. Only in the rarest of cases (e.g., limited affirmative action based upon a holistic review of applicants) has a compelling government interest ever been found. By the way, this is the body of law that the Court relied upon to overturn Plessy v. Ferguson in deciding Brown v. BoE (and the follow-on Brown cases).
It is emphatically the purpose of the Equal Protection Clause to sort out laws that classify based on a suspect classification. Those include race, religion, national origin, alienage status, sex/gender, illegitimacy (i.e., born out of wedlock), and disability. There are more, but those are the main ones. Technically, all legal classifications can be reviewed through the lens of the EPC, but if it's not a suspect classification, it gets "rational basis review," which nearly always results in a court rubber stamping the law/policy.
So, a law banning mix-raced business partnerships (or miscegenation laws, as in Loving v. Virginia) would 100% be tested pursuant to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. No educated person would argue otherwise.
Post by: catastrophe on June 20, 2023, 02:56:29 PM
I see. My quick searching didn’t really turn up any cases of that type of law actually being legislated (or declared unconstitutional) so I just thought you were generally referring to segregated towns, which I think to you does not constitute discrimination so long as whites also were not permitted to live with blacks.What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?
So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?
Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.
I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.
I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.
Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?
From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.
So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).
Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.
Thus this constitutes discrimination.
https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/exclusion_laws/#.WZMxAFGGOUk
This is one example I found with a quick search.
In your last example, I would find as the court did in Buchanan v. Warley.
I still don't see that those Oregon laws were generally challenged based on the summary, but your second point is definitely consistent with the Plessy v. Ferguson (pre Brown v. BOE) era discrimination jurisprudence, so that makes sense!
Post by: Trim on July 26, 2023, 08:51:29 PM
(https://i.imgur.io/YUKqRiV_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 13, 2023, 11:26:41 AM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12626083/Transgender-cyclists-gold-silver-Chicago-races.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_dailymailus
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 13, 2023, 11:30:11 AM
Train harder cis-gendered ladies, but more importantly, just deal with it and keep your mouths shut
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12626083/Transgender-cyclists-gold-silver-Chicago-races.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=social-twitter_dailymailus
Maybe she's shooting for this award next year? Lay off Bub.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/2023/10/13/dylan-mulvaney-named-woman-of-the-year-attitude-magazine/71166482007/ (https://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/2023/10/13/dylan-mulvaney-named-woman-of-the-year-attitude-magazine/71166482007/)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 13, 2023, 11:38:19 AM
But after all, this is: The Life and Times of #blueanon
Post by: catastrophe on October 13, 2023, 08:37:30 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 14, 2023, 09:15:26 AM
Post by: catastrophe on October 14, 2023, 11:01:15 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 14, 2023, 11:12:04 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231015/457f7462b0632b119c991f1100a62764.jpg)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 14, 2023, 11:57:02 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 14, 2023, 11:58:07 PM
Well they completely determine how to run their competition and don’t seem at all apologetic about a trans person winning. Why do you think that is?Because they understand the ramifications of not going along
My FLM you are so obtuse
Post by: catastrophe on October 15, 2023, 12:25:26 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 12:42:33 AM
What is an example of an organizing body who was punished for “not going along”?You’ve seen the actions towards individuals and women’s (cis of course) groups when they don’t go along. So what will change for any “organizing body” if they don’t go along?
Answer: Nothing
Post by: catastrophe on October 15, 2023, 09:25:50 AM
This is from the link you posted:What is an example of an organizing body who was punished for “not going along”?You’ve seen the actions towards individuals and women’s (cis of course) groups when they don’t go along. So what will change for any “organizing body” if they don’t go along?
Answer: Nothing
Quote
On their website, the Chicago CrossCup said they welcome transgender athletes and that they follow USA Cycling’s Transgender Athlete Participation policies, which allows participants in non-elite races to self-select their gender.
So it sure seems like USA Cycling is “not going along” in elite races without much blowback.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 11:53:33 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 15, 2023, 11:54:43 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 11:55:25 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 15, 2023, 11:57:35 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 12:00:28 PM
You're in full blown deflectocon mode :lol:
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 15, 2023, 12:29:30 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 15, 2023, 12:35:26 PM
Yes, my entire take has been centered around the financial aspect of all of this. Brilliant analysis BAC
You're in full blown deflectocon mode :lol:
Just for my own Dacian edification…is deflectocon a play on decepticon like from Transformers or is it con as in convention like a convention of deflectos?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 01:25:15 PM
Post by: Spracne on October 15, 2023, 01:48:41 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
Feel free to leave, then. But thanks for stopping by. With Wacky gone, the pit is almost exclusively for dax arguing incoherently with like every other poster (although I have him on ignore and try not to directly engage with him).
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 01:51:49 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
Feel free to leave, then. But thanks for stopping by. With Wacky gone, the pit is almost exclusively for dax arguing incoherently with like every other poster (although I have him on ignore and try not to directly engage with him).
Good call. I'll stick to the Chiefs thread. Enjoy Dax and Lib7 chasing each other around like school girls all day.
Post by: michigancat on October 15, 2023, 01:56:20 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
Do you have an opinion on the trans cyclists winning a couple races in Chicago?
Post by: Trim on October 15, 2023, 02:24:11 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
:dunno:
Quote
Delusional rants and unsupported claims
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 02:26:35 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
Do you have an opinion on the trans cyclists winning a couple races in Chicago?
Sure. I don't think it's fair, regardless of outcome for men (or transwomen) to compete in an event set up for women. It looked like a niche event, so they can set it up however they like. So if I were involved in the event, I'd probably be a little angry about a women't category being won by men (or TW).
But Rusty, we probably don't agree on what defines womenhood, so I don't know how to have that discussion.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 02:27:18 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
:dunno:QuoteDelusional rants and unsupported claims
fair enough
Post by: michigancat on October 15, 2023, 02:57:16 PM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
Do you have an opinion on the trans cyclists winning a couple races in Chicago?
Sure. I don't think it's fair, regardless of outcome for men (or transwomen) to compete in an event set up for women. It looked like a niche event, so they can set it up however they like. So if I were involved in the event, I'd probably be a little angry about a women't category being won by men (or TW).
But Rusty, we probably don't agree on what defines womenhood, so I don't know how to have that discussion.
maybe you could start by asking yourself why you care how a niche cycling event you probably had never heard of outside of anti-trans weirdo circles determines its competition eligibility? Then you don't even need to worry about how to define womanhood.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 03:00:54 PM
"what's your opinion about the event?"
"Doesn't seem fair"
"Maybe ask why you care about the event I brought up CF3."
Post by: Trim on October 15, 2023, 03:21:35 PM
Quote
I fully expect that in cycling, as a full-body contact sport, you’re going to get hit at some point.
:excited:
Post by: michigancat on October 15, 2023, 03:33:08 PM
Read my post. I said it's a niche event they can set up however they like. I said IF I WERE INVOLVED IN IT I'd have feelings about it. The only reason I gave it my attention is because you asked my opinion of it. Good grief.
"what's your opinion about the event?"
"Doesn't seem fair"
"Maybe ask why you care about the event I brought up CF3."
You also said you didn't know how to have a discussion about it
:dunno:
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 03:38:27 PM
Post by: wetwillie on October 15, 2023, 03:48:00 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 03:49:43 PM
Look at mich and cf3 chasing each other around like school girls, smdh
ha. fair enough. smell ya later.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 15, 2023, 06:54:32 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 07:54:11 PM
saying mahomes had a bad game (2 games ago) really did a number on ol' cf3.
In hindsight the Jets are just very good at defense. Oh well. We all make mistakes.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 15, 2023, 07:55:16 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 15, 2023, 07:56:11 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 08:49:55 PM
Cartier, pay no attention to #blogkaren here. He’s such a little baby he has complete meltdowns if anyone says anything mean about his boy, Pedo Pete.The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
Feel free to leave, then. But thanks for stopping by. With Wacky gone, the pit is almost exclusively for dax arguing incoherently with like every other poster (although I have him on ignore and try not to directly engage with him).
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 08:52:35 PM
Trumpers keeping their eye on important issues. Explains their success at the polls and not at all getting humiliated at midtermsAll Trump, all the time . . . #slowdug 24/7/365
Even when Trump isn’t even mentioned. Here comes #slowdug gurgling on and on about Trump and MAGA
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 08:55:21 PM
A cat level derpYes, my entire take has been centered around the financial aspect of all of this. Brilliant analysis BAC
You're in full blown deflectocon mode :lol:
Just for my own Dacian edification…is deflectocon a play on decepticon like from Transformers or is it con as in convention like a convention of deflectos?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 15, 2023, 08:58:00 PM
It’s a fringe sport so you shouldn’t pay any attention to it . . . #blueanongE whackadoo logic
Post by: DaBigTrain on October 15, 2023, 09:09:46 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231016/13452f4c467db71b719fc2478c6d8545.png)
Post by: wetwillie on October 15, 2023, 09:12:59 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 15, 2023, 09:42:56 PM
Has any trans cyclist attempted to compete on the elite level and been turned down?
It’s a fringe sport so you shouldn’t pay any attention to it . . . #blueanongE whackadoo logic
MTF cyclists are currently banned at the elite level. So, yeah
Post by: MakeItRain on October 16, 2023, 12:07:11 AM
The last couple pages are a great example of why I can't pit. No one is actually debating or stating a position. Good grief you guys are obsessed with Dax.
The framing of this latest dax post has been made before, in this very thread. Literally, at least the second time he's posted about a trans woman participating in some local bike race and framed it as a threat to women's place in sports. Does this need to be debated every time this specific issue is brought up? Do you spend time debating with people who you know are making bad faith arguments that are explicitly not made to spur conversation?
The middle ground on this particular issue is a very easy one to stand on, easier than almost any other hot button issue, and it's been made several times in this thread by several people, I'm not sure what else you're looking for here.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 16, 2023, 08:47:39 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 16, 2023, 09:32:57 AM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on October 16, 2023, 09:50:01 AM
That's his schtick.. The pit is just schticksJust my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 16, 2023, 09:56:10 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on October 16, 2023, 10:09:34 AM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on October 16, 2023, 10:23:12 AM
Post by: michigancat on October 16, 2023, 10:26:16 AM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion about transgender rights any more than dax does, and that's OK.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 16, 2023, 10:37:11 AM
I’m not triggered! You’re triggered!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231016/13452f4c467db71b719fc2478c6d8545.png)
Translation - I am such a complete psycho that I even get mad when Dax responds to someone who wants a response from him
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 16, 2023, 10:40:05 AM
I've documented this repeatedly on this blog as to what occurs when cis-gendered women attempt to stand up for themselves.
The terrible part is, the cis-gendered males that facilitate these meltdowns and their ridiculous equivocations and explanations.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 16, 2023, 10:42:02 AM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
There are a lot of things in sports that are so called unfair. Why does a local bike race have a larger significance/ platform than any other unfair situations in sports? What's a more common unjust situation in our society? A trans woman winning a bike race or underfunded city athletic programs forced to play on the same field as suburban schools who get a disproportionate amount of local and state funding? What's more damaging to the psyche and physical well being of the competitors, a 37 year old woman finishing third instead of second in a bike race or a 15 year old, sophomore, 170 pound offensive tackle from KC Turner having to play a district game against a 280 pound junior who has 3 weightlifting classes a day from Mill Valley?
It's astounding to me the disproportionate amount of care and attention that trans women in sports get, it's really hard to believe the issue is simply about fairness, not when we're treating 9th grade c team volleyball players like they're a threat to public safety.
Post by: catastrophe on October 16, 2023, 11:39:32 AM
Everyone with single brain cell understands that the moment one or two trans women want to ride on the Elite and are denied. There will be another crap storm.
I've documented this repeatedly on this blog as to what occurs when cis-gendered women attempt to stand up for themselves.
The terrible part is, the cis-gendered males that facilitate these meltdowns and their ridiculous equivocations and explanations.
Why deal in hypotheticals when you can just discuss the actual rules? Here is the current policy for elite competitions:
Quote
Those who transition from female to male (FTM) are eligible to compete in the male category upon providing a written and signed declaration acceptable to the UCI Medical Manager. It is the responsibility of athletes to be aware of current WADA/USADA policies and to file for appropriate therapeutic use exemptions.
Those who transition from male to female (MTF) are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:
1. The athlete has declared that their gender identity is female.
2. The athlete must demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 2.5 nmol/L for a period of at least 24 months.
3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 2.5 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
https://usacycling.org/about-us/governance/transgender-athletes-policy
Do you have an issue with the actual policy?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 16, 2023, 11:52:13 AM
Post by: michigancat on October 16, 2023, 11:55:07 AM
I think that is actually out of date because it looks like the international cycling commission banned all MTF athletesEveryone with single brain cell understands that the moment one or two trans women want to ride on the Elite and are denied. There will be another crap storm.
I've documented this repeatedly on this blog as to what occurs when cis-gendered women attempt to stand up for themselves.
The terrible part is, the cis-gendered males that facilitate these meltdowns and their ridiculous equivocations and explanations.
Why deal in hypotheticals when you can just discuss the actual rules? Here is the current policy for elite competitions:Quote
Those who transition from female to male (FTM) are eligible to compete in the male category upon providing a written and signed declaration acceptable to the UCI Medical Manager. It is the responsibility of athletes to be aware of current WADA/USADA policies and to file for appropriate therapeutic use exemptions.
Those who transition from male to female (MTF) are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:
1. The athlete has declared that their gender identity is female.
2. The athlete must demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 2.5 nmol/L for a period of at least 24 months.
3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 2.5 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
https://usacycling.org/about-us/governance/transgender-athletes-policy
Do you have an issue with the actual policy?
Post by: Trim on October 16, 2023, 01:08:20 PM
That said, I agree that all cycling by all genders should be on remote dirt tracks far removed from regular pedestrians.
Post by: passranch on October 16, 2023, 01:25:59 PM
Look at mich and cf3 chasing each other around like school girls, smdh
It's been a refreshing change of pace, TBH.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 20, 2023, 05:08:52 PM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion about transgender rights any more than dax does, and that's OK.
I'm sincere, and I'm not trolling anyone. I bet we'd come to different conclusions however.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 20, 2023, 05:11:02 PM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
There are a lot of things in sports that are so called unfair. Why does a local bike race have a larger significance/ platform than any other unfair situations in sports? What's a more common unjust situation in our society? A trans woman winning a bike race or underfunded city athletic programs forced to play on the same field as suburban schools who get a disproportionate amount of local and state funding? What's more damaging to the psyche and physical well being of the competitors, a 37 year old woman finishing third instead of second in a bike race or a 15 year old, sophomore, 170 pound offensive tackle from KC Turner having to play a district game against a 280 pound junior who has 3 weightlifting classes a day from Mill Valley?
It's astounding to me the disproportionate amount of care and attention that trans women in sports get, it's really hard to believe the issue is simply about fairness, not when we're treating 9th grade c team volleyball players like they're a threat to public safety.
I'm all for having discussions about the inequity in sports. Let's start a thread on it. I have about an up close a view of it as anyone you know.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 20, 2023, 11:56:51 PM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
There are a lot of things in sports that are so called unfair. Why does a local bike race have a larger significance/ platform than any other unfair situations in sports? What's a more common unjust situation in our society? A trans woman winning a bike race or underfunded city athletic programs forced to play on the same field as suburban schools who get a disproportionate amount of local and state funding? What's more damaging to the psyche and physical well being of the competitors, a 37 year old woman finishing third instead of second in a bike race or a 15 year old, sophomore, 170 pound offensive tackle from KC Turner having to play a district game against a 280 pound junior who has 3 weightlifting classes a day from Mill Valley?
It's astounding to me the disproportionate amount of care and attention that trans women in sports get, it's really hard to believe the issue is simply about fairness, not when we're treating 9th grade c team volleyball players like they're a threat to public safety.
I'm all for having discussions about the inequity in sports. Let's start a thread on it. I have about an up close a view of it as anyone you know.
I'm wholly uninterested in discussing the inquiry of sports. My point is that it's competition and having inequity baked in is part of the deal, no matter the city, state, and country, no matter the level of play. The focus on trans girls playing sports has nothing to do with inequities because we've tolerated them as long as we've watched sports and we'll continue to do so. The amount of attention that the rare possible inequity of trans girls in sports play is minor at it's greatest, microscopic nearly all of the time, yet the attention it gets is completely out of wack.
If you have an up close view of inequity in sports, as anyone I know, it seems you're the perfect person to speak to it.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on October 21, 2023, 09:04:36 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 21, 2023, 09:28:17 AM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
There are a lot of things in sports that are so called unfair. Why does a local bike race have a larger significance/ platform than any other unfair situations in sports? What's a more common unjust situation in our society? A trans woman winning a bike race or underfunded city athletic programs forced to play on the same field as suburban schools who get a disproportionate amount of local and state funding? What's more damaging to the psyche and physical well being of the competitors, a 37 year old woman finishing third instead of second in a bike race or a 15 year old, sophomore, 170 pound offensive tackle from KC Turner having to play a district game against a 280 pound junior who has 3 weightlifting classes a day from Mill Valley?
It's astounding to me the disproportionate amount of care and attention that trans women in sports get, it's really hard to believe the issue is simply about fairness, not when we're treating 9th grade c team volleyball players like they're a threat to public safety.
I'm all for having discussions about the inequity in sports. Let's start a thread on it. I have about an up close a view of it as anyone you know.
I'm wholly uninterested in discussing the inquiry of sports. My point is that it's competition and having inequity baked in is part of the deal, no matter the city, state, and country, no matter the level of play. The focus on trans girls playing sports has nothing to do with inequities because we've tolerated them as long as we've watched sports and we'll continue to do so. The amount of attention that the rare possible inequity of trans girls in sports play is minor at it's greatest, microscopic nearly all of the time, yet the attention it gets is completely out of wack.
If you have an up close view of inequity in sports, as anyone I know, it seems you're the perfect person to speak to it.
ok
only reason for that last part of my post is I officiate multiple high school sports now so I see it all up close.
Post by: catastrophe on October 21, 2023, 02:02:10 PM
Agreed, why do you all keep bringing it up then?If you peruse this thread you’ll see that probably 95% of the posts are in response to a tweet or article posted by Wacky or Dax about some trans person winning in a women’s division of a random sport.
Post by: michigancat on October 22, 2023, 12:11:37 PM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion about transgender rights any more than dax does, and that's OK.
I'm sincere, and I'm not trolling anyone. I bet we'd come to different conclusions however.
I don't think you're trolling and I think you're sincere in your beliefs, but I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion, mostly because you made no attempt to start one - you just looked down on anyone mocking dax. Which like I said, is fine, but is not an attempt at a serious, sincere discussion any more than dax's faux outrage is.
If you want my serious take on this cyclocross event, I honestly don't care what they do, even though other folks on the podium didn't seem to care that they lost to trans women. If they chose to ban trans participants, it would be a bad look but I still wouldn't care that much because it's a low-stakes event for adults and I'm OK with them setting requirements for participants. Plus as adults they can probably find an inclusive event or community elsewhere. I'm also OK with the international competitive cycling body setting whatever requirements they see fit. My issue comes with states banning trans kids from high school or youth sports, because it is intentionally being cruel for events that do not matter. That might be a little inconsistent but I think as adults there are fewer risks to the mental health of those excluded than for youth, and at elite adult levels there are more meaningful stakes if something is possibly "unfair".
Post by: Skipper44 on October 22, 2023, 01:39:22 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 22, 2023, 02:26:16 PM
Micat, has your daughter competed against a trans athlete in water polo?
There's a good chance but I don't know how I would know for sure. But she always practices with and sometimes competes with and against boys because there aren't enough competitive girls at her level.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 28, 2023, 01:12:43 PM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion about transgender rights any more than dax does, and that's OK.
I'm sincere, and I'm not trolling anyone. I bet we'd come to different conclusions however.
I don't think you're trolling and I think you're sincere in your beliefs, but I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion, mostly because you made no attempt to start one - you just looked down on anyone mocking dax. Which like I said, is fine, but is not an attempt at a serious, sincere discussion any more than dax's faux outrage is.
If you want my serious take on this cyclocross event, I honestly don't care what they do, even though other folks on the podium didn't seem to care that they lost to trans women. If they chose to ban trans participants, it would be a bad look but I still wouldn't care that much because it's a low-stakes event for adults and I'm OK with them setting requirements for participants. Plus as adults they can probably find an inclusive event or community elsewhere. I'm also OK with the international competitive cycling body setting whatever requirements they see fit. My issue comes with states banning trans kids from high school or youth sports, because it is intentionally being cruel for events that do not matter. That might be a little inconsistent but I think as adults there are fewer risks to the mental health of those excluded than for youth, and at elite adult levels there are more meaningful stakes if something is possibly "unfair".
Thanks for the response. Can you say more about the bolded sentence?
Post by: michigancat on October 28, 2023, 03:27:00 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on October 29, 2023, 09:39:12 AM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion about transgender rights any more than dax does, and that's OK.
I'm sincere, and I'm not trolling anyone. I bet we'd come to different conclusions however.
I don't think you're trolling and I think you're sincere in your beliefs, but I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion, mostly because you made no attempt to start one - you just looked down on anyone mocking dax. Which like I said, is fine, but is not an attempt at a serious, sincere discussion any more than dax's faux outrage is.
If you want my serious take on this cyclocross event, I honestly don't care what they do, even though other folks on the podium didn't seem to care that they lost to trans women. If they chose to ban trans participants, it would be a bad look but I still wouldn't care that much because it's a low-stakes event for adults and I'm OK with them setting requirements for participants. Plus as adults they can probably find an inclusive event or community elsewhere. I'm also OK with the international competitive cycling body setting whatever requirements they see fit. My issue comes with states banning trans kids from high school or youth sports, because it is intentionally being cruel for events that do not matter. That might be a little inconsistent but I think as adults there are fewer risks to the mental health of those excluded than for youth, and at elite adult levels there are more meaningful stakes if something is possibly "unfair".
Thanks for the response. Can you say more about the bolded sentence?
I addressed that in my last reply to you. If you're truly interested in a different view than what you hold, here are two very entertaining yet non preachy podcasts that supports rusty's point.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-teenage-athlete-at-the-heart-of-americas/id1685093486?i=1000628411965
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-reasonable-solution-to-the-transgender-athlete-debate/id1685093486?i=1000631843949
The second podcast also has an accompanying video. Also worth nothing that his interview with the teenager is the only show he's done that he didn't also do as a youtube. They didn't shoot video with her to protect her from all the good Christians who wished her harm. Pretty damn sad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WXnl_ND0Q
Post by: michigancat on October 29, 2023, 11:46:54 AM
Just my interpretation, but I think what CF3 was trying to convey was “even though this doesn’t affect me in any meaningful way, I don’t like this, but I’m not sure how to articulate why it bothers me without sounding like a transphobe”
Na. My original post was because I saw this thread had some action and I thought "hey, maybe there's some interesting discussion in here" only to see it was the usual pit trash that comes with the pit. So I posted that the silly pit'ing is lame. Then Rusty asked my opinion on the bike race and I shared that if I was involved I'd probably feel like it was unfair, which to Rusty was a gotcha moment for whatever reason.
Also, all of us have opinions on things that don't affect us in any meaningful way, and that's ok.
I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion about transgender rights any more than dax does, and that's OK.
I'm sincere, and I'm not trolling anyone. I bet we'd come to different conclusions however.
I don't think you're trolling and I think you're sincere in your beliefs, but I don't think you want to have a sincere discussion, mostly because you made no attempt to start one - you just looked down on anyone mocking dax. Which like I said, is fine, but is not an attempt at a serious, sincere discussion any more than dax's faux outrage is.
If you want my serious take on this cyclocross event, I honestly don't care what they do, even though other folks on the podium didn't seem to care that they lost to trans women. If they chose to ban trans participants, it would be a bad look but I still wouldn't care that much because it's a low-stakes event for adults and I'm OK with them setting requirements for participants. Plus as adults they can probably find an inclusive event or community elsewhere. I'm also OK with the international competitive cycling body setting whatever requirements they see fit. My issue comes with states banning trans kids from high school or youth sports, because it is intentionally being cruel for events that do not matter. That might be a little inconsistent but I think as adults there are fewer risks to the mental health of those excluded than for youth, and at elite adult levels there are more meaningful stakes if something is possibly "unfair".
Thanks for the response. Can you say more about the bolded sentence?
I addressed that in my last reply to you. If you're truly interested in a different view than what you hold, here are two very entertaining yet non preachy podcasts that supports rusty's point.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-teenage-athlete-at-the-heart-of-americas/id1685093486?i=1000628411965
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-reasonable-solution-to-the-transgender-athlete-debate/id1685093486?i=1000631843949
The second podcast also has an accompanying video. Also worth nothing that his interview with the teenager is the only show he's done that he didn't also do as a youtube. They didn't shoot video with her to protect her from all the good Christians who wished her harm. Pretty damn sad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WXnl_ND0Q
There actually is a video of the teenager, it's very well done.
https://youtu.be/nJc4hxxdCJ8?si=FdV9C1POjDeu6XEO
C43, I'd strongly encourage you to watch it
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 29, 2023, 01:33:05 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on October 29, 2023, 01:37:27 PM
I'll watch but those are very long so probs gonna be a week before I reply about them go cats
I listen to this and all podcasts at x1.4 and watch the YouTube videos of this and all podcasts at x1.5
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 29, 2023, 01:38:21 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 29, 2023, 09:15:26 PM
I've tried. I can't do it.It’s total whack-a-doo world. Avoid
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Spracne on October 29, 2023, 09:20:40 PM
I've tried. I can't do it.It’s total whack-a-doo world. Avoid
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Listening at 1.4-1.5x speed? Try to keep up.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 29, 2023, 09:22:30 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 29, 2023, 09:30:04 PM
Post by: Spracne on October 29, 2023, 10:24:05 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 07:13:29 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 07:16:16 AM
The cis-gendered females don't stand a chance. They're silenced and shouted down.
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-women-abandon-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-tournament-after-being-forced-to-fight-males/
But despite claiming to have had a policy in place that required female athletes to be informed, many are coming forward to reveal that NAGA has continued to pair women against trans-identified males without their knowledge and depriving them of the opportunity to opt out in many instances.
Speaking to Reduxx, professional martial artists Jayden Alexander and Ansleigh Wilk highlighted their experience being made to fight against males with no prior warning until stepping onto the mat.
“I honestly never thought this would actually happen in a contact sport, especially not MY contact sport,” Alexander, who is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blue belt, said. “When I saw him, I was so shocked I didn’t know how to respond.”
Post by: michigancat on October 30, 2023, 07:42:03 AM
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxBuKCvP1yE/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== (https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxBuKCvP1yE/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
But still, without knowing any of the details of the sport, cis women complaints here seem pretty valid IMO, assuming greater risk of injury (I don't really care if they lose). I don't know why the weight discrepancy is so great in that one match but it seems like weight classes could solve some of the complaints. :dunno:
Post by: michigancat on October 30, 2023, 10:18:52 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 11:08:56 AM
Post by: michigancat on October 30, 2023, 11:41:28 AM
The referrals to individual incidents where cis-gendered females beat trans females is just so cringe, but absolutely on brand for the anti cis-gendered female wing of #blueanongE
I got that "individual incident" from article you shared you silly goose :lol:
(https://i.imgur.com/0ShcsuY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/16FPI0i.png)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 11:48:30 AM
Post by: catastrophe on October 30, 2023, 08:59:49 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 30, 2023, 09:39:46 PM
That’s bizarre if they don’t have weight classes. Although I will say BJJ is among the sports where no weight or strength difference will make up for a significant difference in skill.
Interestingly on their website it looks like girls complete with boys fairly often, at least enough to have a note that it might happen:
Quote
If there are 2 or more girls in a division, we will create a separate division for the girls. If not, the female competitor will be given the option to compete with the male competitors.
https://www.nagafighter.com/rules-divisions/naga-divisions/
Post by: catastrophe on October 30, 2023, 10:13:05 PM
Post by: Spracne on October 30, 2023, 10:17:21 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 31, 2023, 07:04:49 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 09:30:36 AM
That’s bizarre if they don’t have weight classes. Although I will say BJJ is among the sports where no weight or strength difference will make up for a significant difference in skill.
Interestingly on their website it looks like girls complete with boys fairly often, at least enough to have a note that it might happen:QuoteIf there are 2 or more girls in a division, we will create a separate division for the girls. If not, the female competitor will be given the option to compete with the male competitors.
https://www.nagafighter.com/rules-divisions/naga-divisions/
but i thought trans women are women?
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 09:34:13 AM
That’s bizarre if they don’t have weight classes. Although I will say BJJ is among the sports where no weight or strength difference will make up for a significant difference in skill.
Interestingly on their website it looks like girls complete with boys fairly often, at least enough to have a note that it might happen:QuoteIf there are 2 or more girls in a division, we will create a separate division for the girls. If not, the female competitor will be given the option to compete with the male competitors.
https://www.nagafighter.com/rules-divisions/naga-divisions/
but i thought trans women are women?
In my opinion, they are. Were you trying to quote another post?
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 10:10:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=FdV9C1POjDeu6XEO&v=nJc4hxxdCJ8&feature=youtu.be
The crap dax shares is just dumb culture war nonsense. I'm sure the trans grapplers that need to fight against men will struggle but IMO that's worth it if kids like Ember can play sports as they are.
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 10:35:24 AM
Starts at 35:45: https://youtu.be/h4WXnl_ND0Q?t=2144
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 31, 2023, 10:39:47 AM
That’s bizarre if they don’t have weight classes. Although I will say BJJ is among the sports where no weight or strength difference will make up for a significant difference in skill.
Interestingly on their website it looks like girls complete with boys fairly often, at least enough to have a note that it might happen:QuoteIf there are 2 or more girls in a division, we will create a separate division for the girls. If not, the female competitor will be given the option to compete with the male competitors.
https://www.nagafighter.com/rules-divisions/naga-divisions/
but i thought trans women are women?
Pretty sure that is talking about women competing against men who identify as men.
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 10:46:35 AM
That’s bizarre if they don’t have weight classes. Although I will say BJJ is among the sports where no weight or strength difference will make up for a significant difference in skill.
Interestingly on their website it looks like girls complete with boys fairly often, at least enough to have a note that it might happen:QuoteIf there are 2 or more girls in a division, we will create a separate division for the girls. If not, the female competitor will be given the option to compete with the male competitors.
https://www.nagafighter.com/rules-divisions/naga-divisions/
but i thought trans women are women?
Pretty sure that is talking about women competing against men who identify as men.
that is actually specifically about girls under the "Children and Teens" section.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 10:51:10 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 11:22:31 AM
also c43, I'd highly encourage you to watch the video of the trans girl who is a good example of who these laws are targeting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=FdV9C1POjDeu6XEO&v=nJc4hxxdCJ8&feature=youtu.be
The crap dax shares is just dumb culture war nonsense. I'm sure the trans grapplers that need to fight against men will struggle but IMO that's worth it if kids like Ember can play sports as they are.
I watched it. I have tons of empathy for the kid, and I agree that much of the culture war republican stuff is silly.
Rusty, is the main argument made in the video:
1. Ember isn't that good of an athlete so it doesn't matter
2. It's a rare situation, not that common so should be ignored
3. The girls on the team don't care that Ember is trans
4. Ember has been on hormones for a year so she is a girl now
5. The softball fields are crap so no one really cares about girls sports
Am i seeing that right?
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 11:29:20 AM
also c43, I'd highly encourage you to watch the video of the trans girl who is a good example of who these laws are targeting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=FdV9C1POjDeu6XEO&v=nJc4hxxdCJ8&feature=youtu.be
The crap dax shares is just dumb culture war nonsense. I'm sure the trans grapplers that need to fight against men will struggle but IMO that's worth it if kids like Ember can play sports as they are.
I watched it. I have tons of empathy for the kid, and I agree that much of the culture war republican stuff is silly.
Rusty, is the main argument made in the video:
1. Ember isn't that good of an athlete so it doesn't matter
2. It's a rare situation, not that common so should be ignored
3. The girls on the team don't care that Ember is trans
4. Ember has been on hormones for a year so she is a girl now
5. The softball fields are crap so no one really cares about girls sports
Am i seeing that right?
I don't know that there's an argument being made?
But I think the biggest thing people should take away is that Ember is a brave, sweet, harmless kid who wants to play a game with her friends and be part of a community and republican politicians are trying to make that illegal because she is different.
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 11:32:24 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 11:35:49 AM
also, if those 5 things were your top takeaways, that's pretty disappointing
good grief dude.
MC: "CF3, watch this vid"
CF3: "ok man I'll give it a chance. I really would like to understand a perspective different from my own! Hey Rusty, it seems like here are some reasons the interview alludes to why this kid should be playing girls sports, am I seeing this right?"
MC: "Wow. That's really disappointing."
Literally the first thing in my post was I have empathy for the kid, and agree the 'pub culture war stuff is silly.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 11:38:08 AM
CF3 what's your opinion on this cycling event in Chicago?
If I were involved I'd think it was unfair.
Maybe you should sit back and think about why you care about a random cycling event.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 11:38:15 AM
These are the same people who make trans people believe there's a genocide against them because some states banned on demand gender mutilation of minors
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 11:41:02 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 11:45:27 AM
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 11:46:04 AM
also, if those 5 things were your top takeaways, that's pretty disappointing
good grief dude.
MC: "CF3, watch this vid"
CF3: "ok man I'll give it a chance. I really would like to understand a perspective different from my own! Hey Rusty, it seems like here are some reasons the interview alludes to why this kid should be playing girls sports, am I seeing this right?"
MC: "Wow. That's really disappointing."
Literally the first thing in my post was I have empathy for the kid, and agree the 'pub culture war stuff is silly.
Yeah you did say you had empathy, but your takeaways didn't seem like you did. I misinterpreted, my bad. Wasn't trying to have a "gotcha" moment with you at all.
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 11:54:28 AM
also c43, I'd highly encourage you to watch the video of the trans girl who is a good example of who these laws are targeting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=FdV9C1POjDeu6XEO&v=nJc4hxxdCJ8&feature=youtu.be
The crap dax shares is just dumb culture war nonsense. I'm sure the trans grapplers that need to fight against men will struggle but IMO that's worth it if kids like Ember can play sports as they are.
I watched it. I have tons of empathy for the kid, and I agree that much of the culture war republican stuff is silly.
Rusty, is the main argument made in the video:
1. Ember isn't that good of an athlete so it doesn't matter - Isn't the the primary argument for the "Save Women's Sports" movement that trans girls will (or already do) unfairly dominate girl's sports? I think the video is just highlighting that the bills like this target mostly ordinary, mediocre kids.
2. It's a rare situation, not that common so should be ignored I would argue this highlights the cruelty of the bills - it is targeting a very small group of very vulnerable children.
3. The girls on the team don't care that Ember is trans I didn't think this was a major talking point at all
4. Ember has been on hormones for a year so she is a girl now I think this is a fairly significant misinterpretation. The discussion on the hoops she had to go through with the OHSAA was to highlight how difficult it and arbitrary it already was to be able to play, and then it was still taken away from her.
5. The softball fields are crap so no one really cares about girls sports A very minor talking point, but yes it's a pretty valid IMO
Am i seeing that right?
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 31, 2023, 12:00:21 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 31, 2023, 12:30:45 PM
response to 4 makes sense. you're probably right that that was the talking point
do you refute the points Ember was making (not just on number 4, but the others)? Do you think they were valid or no?
Post by: Spracne on October 31, 2023, 02:32:14 PM
also, if those 5 things were your top takeaways, that's pretty disappointing
Also, "much of the culture war republican stuff is silly." It's not silly. It's dangerous and causes active harm.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 02:45:08 PM
To the point that they openly advocate for owning advance assault weapons and print t-shirts that say as much, and write manifestos (that we can't read) and slaughter children.
'
Post by: CHONGS on October 31, 2023, 02:52:49 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 03:07:29 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 31, 2023, 05:05:35 PM
Now I will admit you know a lot more about the high school girls than i do, but anecdotally speaking, in highschool the kids that don't make the team aren't a bunch of try-hard Dan Ruettigers giving it 110% every play in the hopes of getting off the practice squad and getting to dress for just one game. If those kids don't make the team, they move on. They might be bummed out for a little bit, sure, i mean nobody celebrates NOT making the team, but i think its fair to say its the sort of thing that doesn't alter their trajectory in life, you know? Like i didn't get the part of Hamlet in the high school play, and i'm pretty sure that even if I had, I still wouldn't be a big name Hollywood actor.
So i guess where i'm going with this is...where do you think we should draw the line? If even 1 girl doesn't make the team because the trans girl did is that 1 more than ever should have and we need to start passing laws? Is it 100?
Because i gotta tell you man...even as a heterosexual white male, i still have had plenty of times where - at least in my mind - someone got an unfair advantage to my detriment. I think that's just part of the human condition.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 31, 2023, 05:14:15 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 31, 2023, 10:08:17 PM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 08:11:08 AM
I'd like to hear how trans athletes have impacted the sports cf3 officiates. I believe he said he has an upclose view of the issue.
dude, troll dax. please don't troll me.
Post by: star seed 7 on November 01, 2023, 08:27:26 AM
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 08:29:53 AM
I'm not trolling. Maybe I misunderstood what you said.
I think he was saying he saw the inequity of sports up close and personal and was willing to discuss that.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 09:00:14 AM
I'm not trolling. Maybe I misunderstood what you said.
all good
Post by: star seed 7 on November 01, 2023, 09:10:34 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 09:21:00 AM
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 09:35:18 AM
#1cat
Do you want to have a serious discussion on this issue or not? OK if you don't want to, just want to know where you stand
Post by: yoga-like_abana on November 01, 2023, 09:50:31 AM
Maybe quit mansplaning for CF3 and let him answer on his own.I'm not trolling. Maybe I misunderstood what you said.
I think he was saying he saw the inequity of sports up close and personal and was willing to discuss that.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 10:50:42 AM
#1cat
Do you want to have a serious discussion on this issue or not? OK if you don't want to, just want to know where you stand
yeah dude. It was Halloween yesterday and I'm working today. Posts that are going to require more than a sentence or 2 might take a day or 2 to get to for me. just give me a minute.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 11:10:25 AM
response to 4 makes sense. you're probably right that that was the talking point
do you refute the points Ember was making (not just on number 4, but the others)? Do you think they were valid or no?
Eh. Somewhat? I'm coming around to the sports bodies should be the ones governing eligibility instead of politicians. So in Kansas KSHSAA, in Missouri, MSHSAA etc. If it is as rare as that case with Ember, then yeah, I'll concede politicians ought to focus their energy elsewhere. Most high school sports rules are set by NFHSS and then adopted state by state, I would imagine at some point they'll have to set a standard there for who is eligible for Boys/Girls sports if they haven't already. I will look into that.
As far as a kid like Ember, yeah in the grand scheme of life, some kid playing backup catcher on the girls softball team is pretty harmless, that's fair. I'm still of the opinion that it makes more sense to separate sports by biological sex, but a kid like Ember doesn't really change that opinion for me, sorry. I'm also like, not outraged by it.
As far as the talking point of the true inequity is in facilities/funds for girls vs. boys sports, that to me feels like whataboutism. It might be a totally valid point, but that's not the discussion at hand. My personal experience with my own kids' sports and being around sports in the part of Kansas I live in is it's about the school, not the gender. The girls softball facilities at Blue Valley Southwest or the Volleyball opportunities at St. Thomas Aquinas are really unbelievable, whereas the baseball field at Wyandotte High School has a concrete pad in center field and broken glass in the dugouts. That's what I meant when I said I see the inequity up close.
I have multiple female athletes competing in sports and they are not even aware of this issue. I would suggest unless you have girls competing against trans students you really don't have a dog in this fight. I will decide to be outraged when and if this is a problem for my kids. Not sure why non parents of involved kids are trying to make laws about it.
Eh, there are tons of things that don't impact you personally that you're ok with having opinions on. I get what you mean, but we all weigh in on stuff all the time that don't impact us. No one I know has ever been shot, but I have a lot to say about gun culture etc.
CF3 I would like to ask a couple of questions. First, help walk me through your thought process on the girls who are harmed by trans girls being allowed to participate. So what happens to these girls? In the cases that get the most attention...that girl doesn't win the trophy. or she wins the lesser trophy. Okay. She still makes the team. Extrapolating that out...i suppose that means that there will be the girl that doesn't make the team. or she makes JV instead of varsity.
Now I will admit you know a lot more about the high school girls than i do, but anecdotally speaking, in highschool the kids that don't make the team aren't a bunch of try-hard Dan Ruettigers giving it 110% every play in the hopes of getting off the practice squad and getting to dress for just one game. If those kids don't make the team, they move on. They might be bummed out for a little bit, sure, i mean nobody celebrates NOT making the team, but i think its fair to say its the sort of thing that doesn't alter their trajectory in life, you know? Like i didn't get the part of Hamlet in the high school play, and i'm pretty sure that even if I had, I still wouldn't be a big name Hollywood actor.
So i guess where i'm going with this is...where do you think we should draw the line? If even 1 girl doesn't make the team because the trans girl did is that 1 more than ever should have and we need to start passing laws? Is it 100?
Because i gotta tell you man...even as a heterosexual white male, i still have had plenty of times where - at least in my mind - someone got an unfair advantage to my detriment. I think that's just part of the human condition.
1. Grand scheme of life, sure, not the greatest injustice and most kids will be fine. But the biggest thing to me is these are opportunities and spaces reserved for girls, so they should remain that way. Ember is a unique one because there aren't boys softball teams in Ohio (I think).
2. Yeah probably not worthy of a law. But my line has always been pretty easy and clear. Spaces and opportunities where sex/gender is segregated should stay that way. Prisons, changing rooms, should (IMO) be segregated by sex. Girls sports teams are a space for girls.
Dunno if that answered. Hope it helps.
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 11:28:28 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 11:38:15 AM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 11:49:40 AM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
The 11th grader probably wouldn't cause much harm either, but they wouldn't be doing it to be with their peers/friends/community like an 8th grade trans girl would. However if there's like a 15 year old 8th grader who wants to play with their 8th grade friends, I say let them play!
Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Primarily an increased risk of suicide by the trans girl.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 11:51:17 AM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
The 11th grader probably wouldn't cause much harm either, but they wouldn't be doing it to be with their peers/friends/community like an 8th grade trans girl would. However if there's like a 15 year old 8th grader who wants to play with their 8th grade friends, I say let them play!Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Primarily an increased risk of suicide by the trans girl.
Is there a study that backs up that claim? Honestly asking
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on November 01, 2023, 12:04:37 PM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Age/grade is a pretty easy differentiator because no matter how much HRT you have or how many operations you have, it doesn't change what makes you that <age> or <grade>.
Regarding the second part, it kind of sounds like you are imagining this kid as a wolf in sheep's clothing...secretly knowing the whole time that in reality they identify as a boy but are taking advantage of the fact that they can say they're a girl and gain a competitive advantage. Try to understand that if this trans girl is identifying as a girl, it's because that's how she sincerely identifies no differently than you know at your very core that you are a male, so making her compete on the boys team is how you would feel if you were told you had to play on the girls team. I promise promise promise you, these kids would not sign up for a lifetime of ostracization/ridicule/being hated for simply existing/etc. just so they could maybe gain an advantage at high school sports. Like that isn’t a thing. At all.
That’s like saying “handicapped people get all the best parking spaces I think I’ll paralyze myself from the waist down”
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 12:26:50 PM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
The 11th grader probably wouldn't cause much harm either, but they wouldn't be doing it to be with their peers/friends/community like an 8th grade trans girl would. However if there's like a 15 year old 8th grader who wants to play with their 8th grade friends, I say let them play!Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Primarily an increased risk of suicide by the trans girl.
Is there a study that backs up that claim? Honestly asking
I don't think there's a study that explicitly breaks it down to youth sports participation. We've established these cases are pretty rare which would make it difficult.
However, there is data out there on impacts of suicide rates on trans youth:
Quote
Transgender and nonbinary youth attempt suicide less when their pronouns are respected, when they are allowed to officially change the gender marker on their legal documents, and when they have access to spaces (online, at school, and home) that affirm their gender identity.
Quote
Transgender and nonbinary youth who reported having pronouns respected by all or most people in their lives attempted suicide at half the rate of those who did not have their pronouns respected.
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/
while the above don't explicitly mention sports, forcing the student to either participate in a group where their gender isn't affirmed seems to go above and beyond disrespecting preferred pronouns.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 12:41:37 PM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Age/grade is a pretty easy differentiator because no matter how much HRT you have or how many operations you have, it doesn't change what makes you that <age> or <grade>.
Regarding the second part, it kind of sounds like you are imagining this kid as a wolf in sheep's clothing...secretly knowing the whole time that in reality they identify as a boy but are taking advantage of the fact that they can say they're a girl and gain a competitive advantage. Try to understand that if this trans girl is identifying as a girl, it's because that's how she sincerely identifies no differently than you know at your very core that you are a male, so making her compete on the boys team is how you would feel if you were told you had to play on the girls team. I promise promise promise you, these kids would not sign up for a lifetime of ostracization/ridicule/being hated for simply existing/etc. just so they could maybe gain an advantage at high school sports. Like that isn’t a thing. At all.
That’s like saying “handicapped people get all the best parking spaces I think I’ll paralyze myself from the waist down”
you have a really interesting habit of reading a post of mine and assigning a position to it I haven't taken. Try asking questions. I never said or even hinted at any of that.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 01:54:50 PM
It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?
Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.
The 11th grader probably wouldn't cause much harm either, but they wouldn't be doing it to be with their peers/friends/community like an 8th grade trans girl would. However if there's like a 15 year old 8th grader who wants to play with their 8th grade friends, I say let them play!Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.
Primarily an increased risk of suicide by the trans girl.
Is there a study that backs up that claim? Honestly asking
I don't think there's a study that explicitly breaks it down to youth sports participation. We've established these cases are pretty rare which would make it difficult.
However, there is data out there on impacts of suicide rates on trans youth:QuoteTransgender and nonbinary youth attempt suicide less when their pronouns are respected, when they are allowed to officially change the gender marker on their legal documents, and when they have access to spaces (online, at school, and home) that affirm their gender identity.QuoteTransgender and nonbinary youth who reported having pronouns respected by all or most people in their lives attempted suicide at half the rate of those who did not have their pronouns respected.
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/
while the above don't explicitly mention sports, forcing the student to either participate in a group where their gender isn't affirmed seems to go above and beyond disrespecting preferred pronouns.
I'll read it.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 02:41:03 PM
I'm of the belief there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl, I'm guessing most would agree with that! But when the message to kids who are confused or struggling "you were born in the wrong body" or "everyone around you must affirm your sex was mis-assigned at birth, or you're in danger of self-harm" I think that's not very helpful to kids! Probably a lot bigger issue than Ember's role as backup catcher on the softball team.
Anyway, thanks for the discourse MC. Always open to discuss further if you'd like.
Post by: Spracne on November 01, 2023, 03:00:44 PM
Post by: yoga-like_abana on November 01, 2023, 03:24:49 PM
Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.They are kids.... a lot of kids change their minds. Are you saying they should have to wait to undergo certain things?
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 03:29:24 PM
Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".
there is plenty of evidence that gender-affirming care improves mental health for children who identify as transgender. Also worth noting that gender-affirming care does not ultimately mean surgery or even hormones - I don't know or care what Ember did for her transition and I don't think it matters beyond what works best for her
Quote
The study — led by senior authors Drs. Kym Ahrens and David Inwards-Breland at Seattle Children's Gender Clinic — found that having access to hormones and puberty blockers for youth ages 13 to 20 was associated with a 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and a 73% lower odds of self-harm or suicidal thoughts compared to youth who did not receive these medications over a 12-month period. This adds short-term insight into what was already known about the long-term benefits of gender-affirming care.
https://sph.washington.edu/news-events/sph-blog/benefits-gender-affirming-care
I'm of the belief there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl, I'm guessing most would agree with that!
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're saying Ember is being a girl the wrong way.
But when the message to kids who are confused or struggling "you were born in the wrong body" or "everyone around you must affirm your sex was mis-assigned at birth, or you're in danger of self-harm" I think that's not very helpful to kids! Probably a lot bigger issue than Ember's role as backup catcher on the softball team.
I don't know everyone's journey with mental health and gender-affirming care, but what you are describing sounds like medical malpractice to me and rarely happens if ever. You have a tendency in this thread to exaggerate, so that may just be an exaggerated/oversimplified interpretation of what you think gender-affirming care is and not what you literally think is told to trans kids. You may have noticed that Ember did not use the type of language you are using to describe her coming out as trans.
Anyway, this is a very informative thread about one parent's experience raising a trans child:
https://twitter.com/JesseThorn/status/1377287133921116160
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 03:31:46 PM
Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.
In the video we've been discussing, Ember explicitly said she came out as trans to a friend before telling any adult! And it took two years before she told her parents.
Post by: Spracne on November 01, 2023, 03:40:12 PM
Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.They are kids.... a lot of kids change their minds. Are you saying they should have to wait to undergo certain things?
I've avoided wading into this thread much in the last year or so, but I do follow along with the conversation. People like to throw things around flippantly like dax regarding genital mutilation. I'd like to see the statistics on just how often gender-reassignment surgery happens in minors. I presume it's vanishingly small, even in proportion to the already vanishingly small number of transgender kids participating in youth sports.
As for hormone therapy, I will note that on the one hand, anti-trans folks are saying, e.g., testosterone levels give trans girls an unfair advantage, yet on the other hand, we shouldn't let trans kids do hormone therapy. You put those two hands together, and the result is trans kids simply shouldn't be allowed to play youth sports. That seems unfair to me.
Now, the reality: with rare exceptions like abortions in some instances (i.e., with a court order that parental notification/consent would likely lead to abuse, in a jurisdiction that even allows such an exception), healthcare decisions for minors require not just the perceived need of the minor, but also the consent of a guardian (minors can't enter into contracts) and the medical judgment of a professional. So in the case of hormone therapy, if a minor talks to their parent/guardian about it, and they then discuss it with their family physician, and all parties agree that it is appropriate in whatever kind and degree, then that's just how healthcare is supposed to function for minors. I do not see that I have any right to insert myself into the equation, for moral, ethical, and privacy reasons.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 06:17:39 PM
Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.
In the video we've been discussing, Ember explicitly said she came out as trans to a friend before telling any adult! And it took two years before she told her parents.
Sure. I'm more referring to a societal trend.
Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".
there is plenty of evidence that gender-affirming care improves mental health for children who identify as transgender. Also worth noting that gender-affirming care does not ultimately mean surgery or even hormones - I don't know or care what Ember did for her transition and I don't think it matters beyond what works best for herQuoteThe study %u2014 led by senior authors Drs. Kym Ahrens and David Inwards-Breland at Seattle Children's Gender Clinic %u2014 found that having access to hormones and puberty blockers for youth ages 13 to 20 was associated with a 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and a 73% lower odds of self-harm or suicidal thoughts compared to youth who did not receive these medications over a 12-month period. This adds short-term insight into what was already known about the long-term benefits of gender-affirming care.
https://sph.washington.edu/news-events/sph-blog/benefits-gender-affirming-care
and yet the United States along with Canada is becoming an outlier with the care recommendations for kids with gender dysphoria. Denmark, Finland, England, Sweden are no longer using the care standards that the United States has adopted, with pediatric medicine in the field of gender.
Quote
The key problem in pediatric gender medicine is not the lack of research rigor in the past%u2014it is the field%u2019s present-day denial of the profound problems in the existing research, and an unwillingness to engage in high quality research requisite in evidence-based medicine.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346)
Ember's story is interesting, yet there are a lot of stories of transition regret. I'm curious how you make sense of that phenomenon? I don't know of another treatment for mental health that you find people several years later posting stories of regret in this way.
this just one I found on youtube, there are a lot! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkcX0d6cPOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkcX0d6cPOE)
Post by: Cartierfor3 on November 01, 2023, 06:23:35 PM
I'm of the belief there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl, I'm guessing most would agree with that!
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're saying Ember is being a girl the wrong way.
I'm talking about kids that don't conform to stereotypes about their sex.
Post by: michigancat on November 01, 2023, 07:02:41 PM
Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".
there is plenty of evidence that gender-affirming care improves mental health for children who identify as transgender. Also worth noting that gender-affirming care does not ultimately mean surgery or even hormones - I don't know or care what Ember did for her transition and I don't think it matters beyond what works best for herQuoteThe study %u2014 led by senior authors Drs. Kym Ahrens and David Inwards-Breland at Seattle Children's Gender Clinic %u2014 found that having access to hormones and puberty blockers for youth ages 13 to 20 was associated with a 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and a 73% lower odds of self-harm or suicidal thoughts compared to youth who did not receive these medications over a 12-month period. This adds short-term insight into what was already known about the long-term benefits of gender-affirming care.
https://sph.washington.edu/news-events/sph-blog/benefits-gender-affirming-care
and yet the United States along with Canada is becoming an outlier with the care recommendations for kids with gender dysphoria. Denmark, Finland, England, Sweden are no longer using the care standards that the United States has adopted, with pediatric medicine in the field of gender.
I'm OK with standards evolving. It's worth noting that Sweden still offers hormone treatments to some and still recommends social transition to even more. I didn't look into the details of the other countries. I defer to medical experts to provide the gender-affirming care they think is best and families to make the best decisions they can. I'll also assume that if a kid and their parents are telling me they are a girl, they, along with their care team, have decided that is what is best for them and will do what I can to treat them as a girl and with compassion.
In other words, even assuming we went to Sweden's standard of care, I still think kids should be able to compete in the gender they identify with.
Ember's story is interesting, yet there are a lot of stories of transition regret. I'm curious how you make sense of that phenomenon? I don't know of another treatment for mental health that you find people several years later posting stories of regret in this way.
this just one I found on youtube, there are a lot! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkcX0d6cPOE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkcX0d6cPOE)
It's worth considering, but there is going to be regret for any medical treatment. According to the AP about 1% of those receiving gender affirming surgery experienced regret: https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b
People should be very careful with gender-affirming surgery! And I believe they are. Every gender-affirming care case is different - not everyone gets surgery (or should get the surgery). I also don't think this makes the trans-sports bans less cruel.
Meanwhile, 20% of Prozac users report a negative experience: https://www.drugs.com/comments/fluoxetine/prozac.html
not mental health, but 11% of prostate cancer patients regret receiving radiology: https://ascopost.com/issues/january-25-2022/disconnect-between-expectations-and-outcomes-major-factor-in-treatment-related-regret-among-patients-with-localized-prostate-cancer/
:dunno:
Post by: MakeItRain on November 02, 2023, 01:19:44 PM
Quote
As far as the talking point of the true inequity is in facilities/funds for girls vs. boys sports, that to me feels like whataboutism.
If you want to label it whataboutism feel free to do so but it doesn't change the point that conservative politicians and the people who support them have made a conscious effort to use the phrase "protect women's sports" when the clear threat to women's sports isn't the handful of trans girls playing varsity or sub-varsity nationwide. The protect women's sports movement is an absolute lie and has nothing to do with protecting women's sports, it's completely and totally about demonizing trans girls and women.
Post by: Institutional Control on November 13, 2023, 10:41:06 AM
Quote
High school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Post by: yoga-like_abana on November 13, 2023, 11:06:39 AM
Post by: michigancat on November 13, 2023, 11:26:13 AM
QuoteHigh school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
jesus I've seen a lot of student theater and I've never seen a production with enough cis males to fill every role written for males. these people are just being evil
Post by: _33 on November 13, 2023, 11:59:27 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on November 13, 2023, 12:36:19 PM
Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.
if 'evil' isn't the correct word then what do you think would be more fitting? Or were you just making a general observation?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on November 13, 2023, 01:12:00 PM
Post by: Spracne on November 13, 2023, 01:47:37 PM
QuoteHigh school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
These jackanapes would have cancelled William Shakespeare.
Post by: Institutional Control on November 13, 2023, 02:26:16 PM
QuoteHigh school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
These jackanapes would have cancelled William Shakespeare.
Of course they would have because all his plays had men cast in the female roles.
Post by: Spracne on November 13, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
QuoteHigh school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
These jackanapes would have cancelled William Shakespeare.
Of course they would have because all his plays had men cast in the female roles.
Yeah, that was the point I was making. Men have been portraying women on stage dating back at least to Ancient Greece.
Shakespeare also made a bunch of crude sexual jokes (many of which are lost on modern readers) and even portrayed homosexuality. It bugs me that I live in a state that is less progressive than 16th Century England.
Post by: michigancat on November 13, 2023, 03:08:37 PM
https://slate.com/culture/2014/01/peter-pan-played-by-a-woman-why-a-history-of-casting-the-j-m-barrie-character.html
Post by: passranch on November 13, 2023, 04:49:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyORbG3I5Ys
Post by: sys on November 13, 2023, 08:07:20 PM
I'd say "Nazi" has gained a whole lot of meaning in political discourse, honestly. You never actually saw people flying Nazi flags in public when I was a kid. Feels a lot less hyperbolic knowing that these types are around and politically active.
yeah.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on November 13, 2023, 08:09:23 PM
I'd say "Nazi" has gained a whole lot of meaning in political discourse, honestly. You never actually saw people flying Nazi flags in public when I was a kid. Feels a lot less hyperbolic knowing that these types are around and politically active.
Hey, now. They prefer to be called Christian nationalists
Post by: mocat on November 13, 2023, 08:11:21 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on November 13, 2023, 10:19:28 PM
Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.
Jesus Christ.
Post by: catastrophe on November 13, 2023, 10:47:46 PM
Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.I’m honestly interested in the adjective you’d use.
Post by: Trim on November 13, 2023, 11:30:04 PM
Post by: catastrophe on November 13, 2023, 11:38:39 PM
The people who think transgender people are pretending to be someone they’re not want to preclude them from … acting?It really is a hell of a foil to the “we just want fairness in competition” talking point.
Post by: michigancat on November 14, 2023, 07:12:17 AM
The people who think transgender people are pretending to be someone they’re not want to preclude them from … acting?It really is a hell of a foil to the “we just want fairness in competition” talking point.
Maybe the administrators thought a female puberty gave the kid an unfair advantage in singing? Or maybe it's just that they're really mean to kids who are different?
Who knows, what's really important is we use the correct language to describe the adults making rules ensuring that kids are only playing roles in a school play that match their birth sex
Post by: michigancat on November 14, 2023, 07:37:26 AM
Quote
This Sherman ISD decision unfortunately is an example of this extreme anti-transgender animus that we are seeing here in Texas and across the country
I think we'd be better served calling this "anti-transgender-lite" because it's not like the kid got beat up, he just got called names and followed to the bathroom and pulled from school stayed in a hotel for a few days:
Quote
After local broadcast station KXII reported on the play’s postponement, Max said the atmosphere at school has completely shifted. Students follow him around and have called him transphobic names. His parents pulled him from school and opted to stay in a hotel for the later part of the week.
“People were trying to follow me to the bathroom to see which one I'd go into,” Max said.
I personally think it's great we are discussing how to best describe the administrators that protected cis boys acting roles - it's a healthy debate that hopefully won't make the adults feel too bad or dilute words too much. I think we should put these adults somewhere between "silly geese" and "drama queens" and not "anti-trans" or god forbid "evil". If you call them more intense than "drama queens", then they might dig in their heels and go from "anti-trans-lite" to "anti-trans-medium".
What do you all think?
Post by: michigancat on November 14, 2023, 07:44:35 AM
I think we should stick with "silly geese" to both be safe with gendering and to highlight the lighthearted nature of this rule they passed.
Post by: yoga-like_abana on November 14, 2023, 08:36:46 AM
Post by: _33 on November 14, 2023, 09:13:40 AM
Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.
Jesus Christ.
I didn't think that statement would be controversial. :shy:
Post by: steve dave on November 14, 2023, 09:58:20 AM
Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.
Jesus Christ.
I didn't think that statement would be controversial. :shy:
I think it's controversial only from those who think that action is actually evil. obviously people who think it's ok to do that to those kids would also be surprised by the reaction. good comparison with "nazi" too.
Post by: michigancat on November 14, 2023, 11:08:45 AM
Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.
Jesus Christ.
I didn't think that statement would be controversial. :shy:
I think it's controversial only from those who think that action is actually evil. obviously people who think it's ok to do that to those kids would also be surprised by the reaction. good comparison with "nazi" too.
I don't even know why someone wrote the story. It's just adults protecting children, and we needed a big old story about it in Texas Monthly? Sheesh. :dunno:
Post by: Spracne on November 14, 2023, 01:16:37 PM
Post by: michigancat on November 14, 2023, 02:03:54 PM
What happened to the good old days when we just harassed the gays? One day, everyone was like, "Aight, guess the gays won," and we had to move onto trans folk.
(https://i.imgur.com/ocY27v8.png)
Quote
You know what makes me sick to my stomach? When I hear grown people say that kids have changed. Kids haven’t changed. Kids don’t know anything about anything We’ve changed as adults. We demand less of kids. We expect less of kids. We make their lives easier instead of preparing them for what life is truly about. We’re the ones that have changed. To blame kids is a cop-out.
Post by: star seed 7 on November 14, 2023, 03:17:08 PM
Quote
"The non-binary and transgender extravaganza on display this Thanksgiving will be brought to you by Macy's during their annually sponsored Thanksgiving Day Parade," the petition, organized by One Million Moms, reads.
"Unless they are forewarned about it, this year's holiday parade will potentially expose tens of millions of viewers at home to the liberal LGBTQ agenda."
https://www.foxnews.com/media/thousands-sign-petition-macys-non-binary-trans-extravaganza-planned-thanksgiving-day-parade
Post by: michigancat on November 14, 2023, 03:38:30 PM
These silly geese just want to protect their kidsQuote"The non-binary and transgender extravaganza on display this Thanksgiving will be brought to you by Macy's during their annually sponsored Thanksgiving Day Parade," the petition, organized by One Million Moms, reads.
"Unless they are forewarned about it, this year's holiday parade will potentially expose tens of millions of viewers at home to the liberal LGBTQ agenda."
https://www.foxnews.com/media/thousands-sign-petition-macys-non-binary-trans-extravaganza-planned-thanksgiving-day-parade
I miss the good old days when the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade was a safe space for youth to not be exposed to the gay agenda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ui1Gv69fWw&t=58s
Post by: catastrophe on November 14, 2023, 07:43:17 PM
These silly geese just want to protect their kidsIt still boggles my mind how many conservative thinkers are like, “damnit every time someone gets exposed to other ideas they stop being as conservative as me . . . obviously we need to stop letting our kids hear other points of view!”Quote"The non-binary and transgender extravaganza on display this Thanksgiving will be brought to you by Macy's during their annually sponsored Thanksgiving Day Parade," the petition, organized by One Million Moms, reads.
"Unless they are forewarned about it, this year's holiday parade will potentially expose tens of millions of viewers at home to the liberal LGBTQ agenda."
https://www.foxnews.com/media/thousands-sign-petition-macys-non-binary-trans-extravaganza-planned-thanksgiving-day-parade
Post by: Institutional Control on December 22, 2023, 12:04:07 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 03, 2024, 11:36:39 AM
Yet many issues affecting women, such as FGM, child marriage and forced marriage, reproductive rights, male violence against women and girls, rape as a war crime, pregnancy and maternity healthcare, and more, are inextricably linked with our female biology. How can this person be a champion of women if these issues are deemed unmentionable?”
https://twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1742255085240090762?s=20
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-model-shouldnt-represent-british-women-un-told-nsr0j02wc
Post by: catastrophe on January 03, 2024, 02:58:47 PM
From what I can see it looks like there is a disagreement among two private advocacy groups over who should represent one of them.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2024, 08:25:36 AM
Interesting if true.
Post by: catastrophe on January 04, 2024, 12:11:21 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 04, 2024, 12:19:28 PM