Author Topic: Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No  (Read 42449 times)

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Offline wetwillie

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It’s like anything else, the extreme rare edge cases drive the discussion.  I’m sure a large percentage of trans kids playing sports have no appreciable leg up on their peers.
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Offline MakeItRain

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I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

Well, I think different people are making different arguments, mine has nothing to do with the amount of transgender people or athletes that exist. Which speaks to the question I have for you. Can you help me to see what any of the conversation, narrowly about transgender girls and women competing against cisgender girls and women, broadly about transgender rights, have to do with personal freedom?

Do cisgender girls have the constitutional right to compete against certain people with a specific range of body composition? If you're 5'5" 135 pounds and trans you're not infringing on the rights of the high school softball player and her very involved parents, or do those rights only get infringed upon if she's 5'11" 170?

What personal freedom does anyone have when it comes to who their opponents are when playing sports? I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?

It depends on the sport. In wrestling or boxing, for example, you do get matched up with someone at a similar weight. And any credible league will regulate doping to help prevent body chemistry from becoming too lopsided.

I don't think there should be laws for any of this. Individual sports leagues should set their own rules and limitations.

I don't know how you can account for body composition in any way, shape, or form. I don't know how you can do it without practicing discrimination, like the cisgender African women banned from running in the 400.

One of the reasons people had an issue with Lia Thomas was because she was so much bigger than her competition but she was a similar size of other women swimmers, that people actually know. Michael Phelps had outrageous physical advantages over his competition. Since sports have been sported there have always been inequities in physical prowess, that's going to always exist.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Offline DQ12

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Here's an interesting website on trans demographics...

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/

that's the same link that i posted.  that you commented on, indicating that you probably clicked on the link that i provided and then read some of the content there (before 30 minutes later googling, finding the same source and not recognizing it?).
Haha.  Yeah.  Whoops.


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Offline Cartierfor3

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I guess my basic position is I am fine addressing folks with kindness and dignity in the way they'd like to be addressed, and to treat them with as much dignity as I hope to be treated. I had a trans man work for me for over a year, and we had a good relationship. I referred to him as him in the workplace etc. But there was nothing about that work environment that had any sex or gender segregation outside of the restrooms, but even those were single stall so I never even bothered to notice which restroom anyone used- most people just used the one that was unlocked!

However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.

So as to the question of sports, yeah, I personally put it in a category of a place of vulnerability for women. I get it! Tons of women can kick my ass in tons of sports! I think its ok to have places that are just for girls, and athletics is one of them. I mean, why do we segregate athletics by sex and gender? We don't segregate English class or the marching band. My daughter's soccer team and basketball team has tons of pride in their femininity. You want me to call you she/her, fine, but that doesn't make you a girl. Again, until recently, this was a very mainstream view.

I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.

I can consider and acknowledge MIR or Mich's position is rooted in wanting to be gentle towards trans folks, even if disagree with the conclusion.

An unfortunate aspect of this entire argument is that it's dominated online by Clay Travis/Matt Walsh/Fox News types and is very much driven by fear. That's very annoying and unhelpful.

Anyway- I probably didn't answer MIR or Michigancat's questions as well as I could've- but that's all I got for now.

Offline catastrophe

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However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.


Maybe a little aside, but this was a big talking point for the bathroom bill. The grand irony of the situation you describe is that it’s far more likely to occur where transgender people are PREVENTED from using the facilities that more closely identify with their gender.

Not saying that is the situation you faced. Just food for thought.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Offline Cire

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Obviously there will be a higher percentage of trans young people than the general population due to progress in society but 0.44% of high school kids in sports does seem high. You could point to the Utah numbers as evidence, but I'm guessing they have far lower percentages of trans youth than the general population.

I wonder if they are counting cheer/dance

Offline MakeItRain

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I guess my basic position is I am fine addressing folks with kindness and dignity in the way they'd like to be addressed, and to treat them with as much dignity as I hope to be treated. I had a trans man work for me for over a year, and we had a good relationship. I referred to him as him in the workplace etc. But there was nothing about that work environment that had any sex or gender segregation outside of the restrooms, but even those were single stall so I never even bothered to notice which restroom anyone used- most people just used the one that was unlocked!

However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.

So as to the question of sports, yeah, I personally put it in a category of a place of vulnerability for women. I get it! Tons of women can kick my ass in tons of sports! I think its ok to have places that are just for girls, and athletics is one of them. I mean, why do we segregate athletics by sex and gender? We don't segregate English class or the marching band. My daughter's soccer team and basketball team has tons of pride in their femininity. You want me to call you she/her, fine, but that doesn't make you a girl. Again, until recently, this was a very mainstream view.

I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.

I can consider and acknowledge MIR or Mich's position is rooted in wanting to be gentle towards trans folks, even if disagree with the conclusion.

An unfortunate aspect of this entire argument is that it's dominated online by Clay Travis/Matt Walsh/Fox News types and is very much driven by fear. That's very annoying and unhelpful.

Anyway- I probably didn't answer MIR or Michigancat's questions as well as I could've- but that's all I got for now.

I don't think your position is one based on bigotry. I do think it is based on soft sold misogyny and dated gender norms though. The need to protect girls while not thinking that boys could be just a traumatized, for those who are trying to protect the perceived trauma of girls, is very problematic. I think for most people the issue isn't trans people themselves but the fact that trans women threaten the idea of femininity. It's why conservatives only talk about girls in sports and girls bathrooms.

Offline sys

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Maybe a little aside, but this was a big talking point for the bathroom bill. The grand irony of the situation you describe is that it’s far more likely to occur where transgender people are PREVENTED from using the facilities that more closely identify with their gender.

i agree with cf3 on much of his post, although not in his conclusion as relates to hs sports, but i think the a&m thread nicely highlights that there's not really any categorization of trans people that satisfies everyone that objects to them.
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Offline MakeItRain

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That's always going to be the case when you're objecting to any sweeping class of people, particularly classified as "them." I'm certain there are a lot of trans people who completely disagree with my simple, leave people alone and let them live their life method. People want to be acknowledged, recognized, and treated as equal members of society. If I said we should just leave cis white men alone and let them live their lives, without acknowledging their right to exist, that would be a wild ass take.

Offline sys

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That's always going to be the case when you're objecting to any sweeping class of people, particularly classified as "them." I'm certain there are a lot of trans people who completely disagree with my simple, leave people alone and let them live their life method. People want to be acknowledged, recognized, and treated as equal members of society.

agreed.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?


Quote
Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.

What kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Offline yoga-like_abana

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I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?



Cocks, the answer is cocks

Offline michigancat

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Amazing

I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?



Cocks, the answer is cocks

glad to see the adults have joined the discourse

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Amazing

I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?



Cocks, the answer is cocks

glad to see the adults have joined the discourse

There is no real discourse here.  Just long winded affirmation.

It's becoming more and more clear that cis-gendered females must accept a whole new paradigm, or otherwise be labeled bigots or Nazi TERFS.  Traditional cis-gendered female personal spaces are being eradicated.  Cis-gendered females must set their fears and concerns for their safety and well being aside otherwise potentially face the most ugly of ridicule, bordering on violence in several instances.

Translation:  Cis-gendered female and potential Nazi TERF - just deal with this or else!!   Your concerns for your well being are secondary to our agenda.  We'll fight you every step of the way with our statistics and our anecdotes, even if your simply trying to change your clothes or go to the bathroom or change your tampoon without a biological man mere feet away.











Offline catastrophe

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I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?


I feel like the answer here is obvious. His concept (or Platonic form for my philosophy nerds) of a woman is someone who was born female and presumably without such major genetic abnormalities that her sex is obvious from her reproductive organs and some other common characteristics.

I don’t see that as particularly unreasonable to have a separate definition of “woman” and “trans woman,” although I think in practice it would be rare to draw that distinction in regular discourse without some pretty loaded connotations behind it.

Offline Cartierfor3

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I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?


Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?

I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.

Quote
What kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?

A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

I don't think the fact that your answer to the question I quoted was mainstream not that long ago (and really still is) means it's the right conclusion or that it isn't rooted in bigotry. How did you come to the conclusion that "trans women aren't women"?


Because I define a woman as an adult human female. How did you come to a different conclusion?

I will concede that the that how widespread a belief is isn't always correlated to its truthfulness. That's fair.

Quote
What kindness do "girls" lose if trans girls play sports with them?

A space for girls to compete against other girls in sports, without males, and all the benefits that come with that.

You're wasting your time.

#blueanongE has already decided.  Best to move on.


Offline Cartierfor3

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I actually disagree. I'm putting myself in a position where I have to examine my own thoughts and arguments and let them be challenged.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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I actually disagree. I'm putting myself in a position where I have to examine my own thoughts and arguments and let them be challenged.

Your thoughts are spot on.  You are legitimately concerned about the rights of biological females on a go forward basis.   Unfortunately you are talking with members of a political movement with a growing subculture that no longer cares about the rights of cis-gendered females (outside of Abortion, and that's merely as a means to attack Republicans and conservatives).   Particularly troubling is that when cis-gendered females express concerns about their safety, when they express concerns about the activities and actions of trans-women in traditional female personal spaces.  They are now being attacked and silenced more and more.

In terms of things like athletics, look at all the anecdotal BS they've trolled out in this thread.  Look at how they've spoken about the cis-gendered female who finishes in 7th place, behind a biological male.  Look at the passive aggressive nonsense being shown by some in trying to make a point (poorly).

Again, you're wasting your time.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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I guess my basic position is I am fine addressing folks with kindness and dignity in the way they'd like to be addressed, and to treat them with as much dignity as I hope to be treated. I had a trans man work for me for over a year, and we had a good relationship. I referred to him as him in the workplace etc. But there was nothing about that work environment that had any sex or gender segregation outside of the restrooms, but even those were single stall so I never even bothered to notice which restroom anyone used- most people just used the one that was unlocked!

However, I do think segregation of sexes is a communal good for our society, and the reason for that isn't for men, but for women. Places of vulnerability (prisons, restrooms, changing rooms, sleepover events for kids, dorms, etc.) should be free of men for women and girls. Men are pretty rough. I had a situation at a job that I just left in December where a man entered the building and headed straight for the women's room. When stopped by security he said "I'm a woman". This was a person whom we had never seen and looked like a man in all aspects. I don't think its unreasonable to view that as a threat, or at the very least to guide them to a single stall bathroom elsewhere in the building. In the past two years I dealt with several abusive marriage situations- every single one the man was the threat, men frankly should be viewed as untrustworthy to be around women in vulnerable spaces! This was a mainstream position until very recently.

So as to the question of sports, yeah, I personally put it in a category of a place of vulnerability for women. I get it! Tons of women can kick my ass in tons of sports! I think its ok to have places that are just for girls, and athletics is one of them. I mean, why do we segregate athletics by sex and gender? We don't segregate English class or the marching band. My daughter's soccer team and basketball team has tons of pride in their femininity. You want me to call you she/her, fine, but that doesn't make you a girl. Again, until recently, this was a very mainstream view.

I mean the bigger question in all of this of course is "are trans women women?" I'm a pretty firm no on that, so while you can have a lot of the societal and social aspects of womanhood, I'm sorry, there are some things that aren't for you. Honestly many of us will probably always disagree on that. I'm ok with not agreeing here.

Can ask something of those who disagree? Would you consider my position isn't rooted in bigotry but rooted in kindness towards girls? I tell my daughters being a girl is awesome, its one of the most special things there is.

I can consider and acknowledge MIR or Mich's position is rooted in wanting to be gentle towards trans folks, even if disagree with the conclusion.

An unfortunate aspect of this entire argument is that it's dominated online by Clay Travis/Matt Walsh/Fox News types and is very much driven by fear. That's very annoying and unhelpful.

Anyway- I probably didn't answer MIR or Michigancat's questions as well as I could've- but that's all I got for now.

I don't think your position is one based on bigotry. I do think it is based on soft sold misogyny and dated gender norms though. The need to protect girls while not thinking that boys could be just a traumatized, for those who are trying to protect the perceived trauma of girls, is very problematic. I think for most people the issue isn't trans people themselves but the fact that trans women threaten the idea of femininity. It's why conservatives only talk about girls in sports and girls bathrooms.

This is a good debate.  I have 6 girls all playing sports in the Silver Lake area.  No trans youths involved so until that actually happens, I know my opinion is un-needed.  This is my primary beef with the Clay Travis set which is "we just want top be left alone" when really they want to and need to be victimized and absolutely be involved in decisions that have zero to do with them.

However, CF3 is right about the girls time in sports being kind of unique.  Mine bond uniquely with their teammates during practice, competition and outside of the lines.  I am not sure if a trans teammate or competitor would change that. But, I don't think there are lots of tweens willing to go through transition in order to show up for a huge fondle sesh in the girls locker room after volleyball practice.

I would be curious in what specific instances has a girl actually felt threatened by a trans teammate or competitor?  Is it just a boogie man or is it reported?  If there are trans athletes making competitors feel threatened then they should be gone.

But, if there are biological competitors making others feel threatened....they should be gone also

Offline Trim

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I have 6 girls all playing sports in the Silver Lake area. 

A badass would have 7 in St. Mary’s.