Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[Trim]

Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?

We live in a society.

How I came to accept that trans women are women and trans men are men is that I have talked with/worked with/competed against/roomed with trans people and they told me so.

I know that's not the most satisfying answer, but we treat what people tell us with earnestness in other circumstances. if someone of sound mind that I trust and respect tells me that they believe in God, I believe them even though I have no way to verify the truthfulness of their claim and am not able to understand it myself.

There's also supporting evidence, though not a direct proof, that affirms what trans people are telling us. For instance, there have been studies into what the intervenable factors are when it comes to suicide risk in transgender people. They found that there is a large reduction in suicidal ideation associated with each of the following:
- completing medical transition through hormones and/or surgery
- experiencing lower self-reported transphobia
- increased social/parental support.

In other words, listening to what they are telling us and treating trans women as women and trans men as men makes fewer trans people die by suicide. To me, this all makes for very compelling evidence that gender (a societal construct as you point out) is distinct from sex/genetalia

Guess I already bbs'd about most of this, still without reconciling my thoughts, in another thread and yes I'm sure it'd help for me to hear from a first-person perspective.

https://goEMAW.com/forum/index.php?topic=37625.625

I definitely disagree though that we do or should always treat what people tell us with earnestness in other circumstances.  I don't think someone can declare themselves to be of another race from your example, or more on point, some other physical characteristic that defines itself (we talked about right-handedness or height in the other thread).  The religion example you give doesn't help either, as I do believe that others believe in god, which is irrelevant to ever determining the fact of whether there is god or not.

To an extreme end, there are crazy (?) people downtown where I live that earnestly believe all sorts of crap, and we correctly don't go along with it and ideally arrest them when they commit crimes and get them into treatment.  That's not at all the gender scenario, but it shows that we don't just go along with what people believe.  And in trials, when the trier of fact makes a decision, their decision comes with a finding that a witness who may have earnestly believed what they were saying was wrong.

The societal construct thing was quoted from you, and it ties in to the suicide stats you gave.  Would there be a need or want to be a gender different from one's sex if society had been more accepting that people from either sex can have a wide range of so-called gender traits?

[LickNeckey]

tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).

people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).

this is actually historically false

India/Hinduism has had a dedicated social construct "Hijra" (or third gender that had its own Caste) for hundreds (really more probably thousands of years)

in the 19th century the British didn't like this and sought to eradicate them and made identification as Hijra illegal

this false narrative and persecution is not new

hermaphroditic populations are thought to be 1.7% of the world population

[chum1]

Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?

That definitely depends on the amount of overlap between the societal convention of gender and tendencies based on biological sex. My armchair observation is that there is enough overlap between the two that we'd always have some gender switching no matter how less rigid we are with our societal conventions.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Transgender people are not mentally ill unlike many of the unfortunate souls downtown and again, there is supporting evidence that shows negative impact on mental health when their gender identity is denied rather than affirmed, which supports their claim that their gender is what they say it is.

Would there be a need or want to be a gender different from one's sex if society had been more accepting that people from either sex can have a wide range of so-called gender traits?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  it feels like you're asking if we would need to adjust our idea of gender if the social construct of gender didn't exist?

['taterblast]

tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).

people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).

this is actually historically false

India/Hinduism has had a dedicated social construct "Hijra" (or third gender that had its own Caste) for hundreds (really more probably thousands of years)

in the 19th century the British didn't like this and sought to eradicate them and made identification as Hijra illegal

this false narrative and persecution is not new

hermaphroditic populations are thought to be 1.7% of the world population

sorry i wasn't clear - by "history" i was referring to sports in america. so a very recent and specific history.

(on that note i listened to a podcast recently with Alok Vaid-Menon who explained there is a wide history of multiple genders. it was a fascinating listen.)

[LickNeckey]

many cultures have long appreciated this facet of the human condition

we live in a culture that has long ignored these realities and persecuted those who have

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Curious if folks would find the following proposal palatable:

Proposal Part 1 - Trans kids(<18) are allowed to compete according to their gender identity until they are adults. trans girls play on the girls team. trans boys play on the boys team.
Proposal Part 2 - Professional sports and international competitions(i.e. Olympics) are no longer gender-segregated but are allowed to be instead separated by specific physical characteristics that impact performance. for example, you could require that athletes have testosterone within defined limits or you could create a professional 6-foot-and-under basketball league.  You can use any physical trait you want to separate athletes so long as (a) you can prove that the physical trait actually leads to a performance advantage(i.e. having a penis doesn't disqualify you unless the physical presence of a penis demonstrably makes you run faster or be a better free-throw shooter or something) and (b) you can't market the competition as being gendered(for example, you could have a Low T MMA division and a high T MMA division. if we want, we could even make an 'unnaturally high T' MMA division if we want to watch roided out freaks smack each other around).  this obviously wouldn't be feasible for kids sports because of cost and puberty so it's limited to adults in professional and international competition

[Trim]

Transgender people are not mentally ill unlike many of the unfortunate souls downtown and again, there is supporting evidence that shows negative impact on mental health when their gender identity is denied rather than affirmed, which supports their claim that their gender is what they say it is.

Would there be a need or want to be a gender different from one's sex if society had been more accepting that people from either sex can have a wide range of so-called gender traits?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  it feels like you're asking if we would need to adjust our idea of gender if the social construct of gender didn't exist?

That bold part is circular logic. 

I don't yet fully accept the whole gender-societal construct thing.  My point is that if accepted, then it would be logical to think that society's historical thoughts on how a person from either sex should act/appear/emote/etc. is what has made some people who don't fit into those expectations wonder/think/earnestly believe they are a distinct gender from their sex as opposed to still being their birth sex while being themselves within it.   

You cherry-picked my example of crazy people (omitting where I said that's not at all the gender scenario) and ignored the other examples of people "earnestly believing" things that are physically inaccurate, and in turn brushed past that we as a society correctly do not always accept what any person earnestly believes.

I'm sure I'll find the material that would reconcile this all for me at some point.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

I don't yet fully accept the whole gender-societal construct thing.  My point is that if accepted, then it would be logical to think that society's historical thoughts on how a person from either sex should act/appear/emote/etc. is what has made some people who don't fit into those expectations wonder/think/earnestly believe they are a distinct gender from their sex as opposed to still being their birth sex while being themselves within it.   

I think so, yes. Society in the USA has very strict definitions of "Men have expectations A/B/C. Women have expectations X/Y/Z". Gender doesn't have a physical definition, though, so if a person thinks "I fit expectations X/Y/Z more than A/B/C" then it's natural for them to identify as a woman regardless of what body parts they have. If society suddenly changed definitions to "It's ok for everyone to meet any combination of expectations A/B/C/X/Y/Z" then the concept of gender vanishes.

[Trim]

I don't yet fully accept the whole gender-societal construct thing.  My point is that if accepted, then it would be logical to think that society's historical thoughts on how a person from either sex should act/appear/emote/etc. is what has made some people who don't fit into those expectations wonder/think/earnestly believe they are a distinct gender from their sex as opposed to still being their birth sex while being themselves within it.   

I think so, yes. Society in the USA has very strict definitions of "Men have expectations A/B/C. Women have expectations X/Y/Z". Gender doesn't have a physical definition, though, so if a person thinks "I fit expectations X/Y/Z more than A/B/C" then it's natural for them to identify as a woman regardless of what body parts they have. If society suddenly changed definitions to "It's ok for everyone to meet any combination of expectations A/B/C/X/Y/Z" then the concept of gender vanishes.

I think society doing that would be good.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

If society suddenly changed definitions to "It's ok for everyone to meet any combination of expectations A/B/C/X/Y/Z" then the concept of gender vanishes.

I think society doing that would be good.

 

[star seed 7]

There's an interesting conversation there. One of the things I have always been uneasy (disappointed?) about the trans "movement" is how much it tends to reinforce the stereotypical gender standards.

But of course I also realize these are just people trying to operate in and live within the current culture.

Like Trim, I wish things were different.

[MakeItRain]

My God, I want to marry FuzzyWuzzy.

[catastrophe]

I think there is something inherent to people seeking community generally but especially among those of the same gender.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a worthy goal to try to deconstruct the male/female divide, although there are definitely a lot of things we have arbitrarily assigned to one gender or another that we could do away with.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I don't think people play sports at the collegiate level or above out of some desire to seek community. I would agree with that sentiment at the high school level and below, and with rec leagues.

[catastrophe]

I don't think people play sports at the collegiate level or above out of some desire to seek community. I would agree with that sentiment at the high school level and below, and with rec leagues.

Agree with that, and to be clear I meant on a societal level rather than sports divisions.

I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.

[MakeItRain]

I don't think people play sports at the collegiate level or above out of some desire to seek community. I would agree with that sentiment at the high school level and below, and with rec leagues.

Agree with that, and to be clear I meant on a societal level rather than sports divisions.

I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.

To me, it's the definition of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[DQ12]

I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.

i think that "moving away from men's/women's divisions" would functionally lead to a lot fewer women ever competing in athletics at a high level.  i'm no expert on this stuff, but erasing divisions seems like it would be extremely counterproductive.

just as an example, the women's 2021 marathon gold/silver/bronze medalists would've placed 71st/72nd/73rd in the men's race.  serena williams isn't winning wimbledon if she's competing against the world's best men's players. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Yeah, I don't understand the idea of women competing against cisgendered men at all.

[catastrophe]

I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.

i think that "moving away from men's/women's divisions" would functionally lead to a lot fewer women ever competing in athletics at a high level.  i'm no expert on this stuff, but erasing divisions seems like it would be extremely counterproductive.

just as an example, the women's 2021 marathon gold/silver/bronze medalists would've placed 71st/72nd/73rd in the men's race.  serena williams isn't winning wimbledon if she's competing against the world's best men's players.

Well again, you would only do away with men/women if you created sub-categories based on height, weight, hormones, muscle tone, hemoglobin levels, who knows what else. Theoretically it would keep sports competitive and “fix” the advantages of transgender competitors while not being based on sex at birth (even though it would almost certainly end up largely divided between biological women and biological men). The thing is we are nowhere close to determining what criteria matter for different sports or how to measure it.

And as MIR said (or as I interpreted it), it would be an overly complex solution to something that really isn’t a problem right now. We’re only talking about a theoretical solution to a theoretical problem.

[DQ12]

I appreciate the concept of moving away from men’s/womens divisions in sports and basing them on more measurable differences, but I think we are so far away from being able to do that. We’re still just scratching the surface on the long term effects of current hormonal therapies.

i think that "moving away from men's/women's divisions" would functionally lead to a lot fewer women ever competing in athletics at a high level.  i'm no expert on this stuff, but erasing divisions seems like it would be extremely counterproductive.

just as an example, the women's 2021 marathon gold/silver/bronze medalists would've placed 71st/72nd/73rd in the men's race.  serena williams isn't winning wimbledon if she's competing against the world's best men's players.

Well again, you would only do away with men/women if you created sub-categories based on height, weight, hormones, muscle tone, who knows what else. Theoretically it would keep sports competitive and “fix” the advantages of transgender competitors while not being based on sex at birth. The thing is we are nowhere close to determining what criteria matter for different sports or how to measure it.

And as MIR said (or as I interpreted it), it would be an overly complex solution to something that really isn’t a problem right now. We’re only talking about a theoretical solution to a theoretical problem.

what is this, harrison bergeron?  i think things are basically fine where they're at now, so long as we can figure out a reasonable way to accommodate fringe cases like lia thomas.

[MakeItRain]

Read the damn letter, all of you. At the very least open the #2 tweet and read the last page of the letter.
https://twitter.com/SpencerJCox/status/1506377724314611712

[catastrophe]

Good letter, although I’m still not sure how egregious I would consider Lia’s case, the compromise solution at least makes sense.

I think my position at this point in time is that transgender athletes should be treated similar to how we treat other “freak athletes” (for lack of a better term, which btw is almost always used with a positive connotation). In other words, yeah some people purely by virtue of their genetics will be at a competitive advantage, and that’s ok because there aren’t all that many of them. Just because you were born with 7 foot DNA or male muscle DNA shouldn’t stop you from competing.

My position is based on two critical assumptions, which could definitely change on further information. The first is that transgender individuals have no real choice in their gender. They are men born in women’s bodies or vice versa. I think treating that as a biological/physiological issue is important. It’s possible there are many cases where a person’s body dysmorphia is the cause of a psychological issue that can be treated but I am just not aware of any evidence of that right now. And I still consider the prospect of someone transitioning to gain a competitive advantage completely ridiculous.

Second, I am assuming that transgender athletes in sports is and will be rare. If it turns out there are enough transgender competitors to fill a whole division then that might make more sense at the NCAA and Olympic level. Of course, I have always interpreted people pushing this “solution” at this point as essentially saying transgender athletes shouldn’t be able to compete at all given how few instances there are.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

https://twitter.com/stacycay/status/1505946574903513089?s=20&t=IYaL4Y4M2SOZItmmpqBMuA

[420seriouscat69]

https://twitter.com/JoelMBeall/status/1518961524135677953?s=20&t=s_Z7B68BrFjbsYXnLZljgw