Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[Kid In the Hall]

Yeah, but I mean, why ban anything? Make it one big free for all.

I like this question. I think there are probably two main reasons, although maybe not thought of in these terms.

First, there are those who want a sport to be as competitive as possible. Kind of like how boxing, wrestling, and MMA have really narrow weight divisions (all of which also happen to have very strict equipment requirements). The idea is for the contestants to stay relatively tightly grouped which makes for more excitement in competition. The more allowance in how people are allowed to compete, the greater likelihood that a clear top tier will separate itself from others.

Second, you have people who only want to see a very particular competition with as few variables as possible. In that case the focus isn’t so much on how competitive the events are but purely on crowning the best at a specific event within a specific class.

In my view, in the case of this swimming example, it was more of the second option that Catastrophe laid out. If you think about swimming, there are some variables (lane assignment, etc.), but from an "equipment" standpoint, there traditionally weren't any. People wore caps/goggles/suits, but they were all pretty much the same. That's contrasted to something like golf where there's a big variability in equipment. Anyway - these suits freaked out the governing body because they made such a big difference. I think they feared an "arms race" (for lack of a better term) that would mean the "best" swimmer may or may not consistently win - not because of their ability, but because of the suit they were wearing. 

More backstory on the "why" of the ban here:
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/one-decade-later-do-we-miss-the-full-body-competition-suit/

[Rage Against the McKee]

Well, it just seems like the body going through male puberty is likely a bigger variable than a swimsuit will ever be.

[catastrophe]

Well, it just seems like the body going through male puberty is likely a bigger variable than a swimsuit will ever be.

The thing about those against Lia competing is that they almost always phrase it in terms of the first justification (i.e., it’s bad for competition), but in reality it’s really more of the second (i.e., when we watch women’s sports we only want to see who the best biological females are).

The first justification really doesn’t make sense here for two reasons. First, the number of transgender competitors is extremely low, and so far even those who excel at the sport (Lia in this case) still face pretty tough competition at the highest levels. Second, the people making the argument don’t seem to have any desire to try to quantify whatever biological advantage there is, nor to regulate it in anyone other than transgender athletes.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Well, it just seems like the body going through male puberty is likely a bigger variable than a swimsuit will ever be.

The thing about those against Lia competing is that they almost always phrase it in terms of the first justification (i.e., it’s bad for competition), but in reality it’s really more of the second (i.e., when we watch women’s sports we only want to see who the best biological females are).

The first justification really doesn’t make sense here for two reasons. First, the number of transgender competitors is extremely low, and so far even those who excel at the sport (Lia in this case) still face pretty tough competition at the highest levels. Second, the people making the argument don’t seem to have any desire to try to quantify whatever biological advantage there is, nor to regulate it in anyone other than transgender athletes.

I don't see how the number of competitors even matters. If anything, the small number makes the advantages more glaring. People have trouble quantifying the advantages because there isn't a lot of data to demonstrate the effects of hormone treatment on performance. And yeah, most people are reasonable enough to not want to force hormone treatment on women who are naturally above whatever "fair" testosterone limit that gets set for trans athletes. Most people want drugs out of sports. Making them a requirement to meet sports regulations is the opposite of that.

[catastrophe]

The small numbers matter because no matter what you think of Lia’s biological advantage, it is entirely absent from like 99% of other women’s swimming races that she’s not a part of. The competitiveness of the sport is not threatened.

If the objection is “well I just don’t want that person to be able to set records as a woman” then again I think it goes to being concerned more about determining the best biological female vs keeping the sport competitive.

On that point I think it’s fair to note that even though people may grumble every 4 years about it, the records set in those now banned suits are still on the books (although I believe even many of those have since been broken).

[Rage Against the McKee]

Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?

[catastrophe]

Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?

It’s really hard for me to picture the context of that, but I have to imagine the rules don’t allow it. I’m not ok with the breaking rules of the competition. For context, I don’t have an issue with the women who play college football since the rules clearly permit it.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?

It’s really hard for me to picture the context of that, but I have to imagine the rules don’t allow it. I’m not ok with the breaking rules of the competition. For context, I don’t have an issue with the women who play college football since the rules clearly permit it.

So if the rules did not allow transgendered athletes to compete, then you would agree they shouldn't compete?

[catastrophe]

Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?

It’s really hard for me to picture the context of that, but I have to imagine the rules don’t allow it. I’m not ok with the breaking rules of the competition. For context, I don’t have an issue with the women who play college football since the rules clearly permit it.

So if the rules did not allow transgendered athletes to compete, then you would agree they shouldn't compete?

Yes (assuming the rule is not unlawfully discriminatory).

I mean it’s always a separate question of whether the rules should be changed. The thing is I don’t have a dog at all in this fight. As long as it operates within the law, the NCAA is free to determine how it organizes its competitions in my opinion. Whether they deserve public criticism for such decisions is a different question.

[MakeItRain]

Are you ok with a cisgendered male participating in women's athletics, catastrophe?

What a dog crap question.

[michigancat]

my daughter has been swimming competitively for like 7 years. I asked her about Lia Thomas and she had no idea who she was but I learned she actually had a trans swimmer on her club in California. I asked what she thought about it and she was like "why would I even think about that."

[star seed 7]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

[chum1]

Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.

[420seriouscat69]

my daughter has been swimming competitively for like 7 years. I asked her about Lia Thomas and she had no idea who she was but I learned she actually had a trans swimmer on her club in California. I asked what she thought about it and she was like "why would I even think about that."

Weird, I talked to my 2 and a half year old son about it, who's been swimming in pools since day 1 and he spit out his coffee & tossed his cigarette after hearing about it. Pretty wild what different households can do to our children.

[ChiComCat]

Maybe it was already posted in here, I haven't fully kept up with the speed of this thread, but the Utah Gov vetoed their bill.  I appreciated his statement on it, which the article below has excerpts of.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/22/utah-governor-veto-transgender-sports-ban-00019417

['taterblast]

“I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion,”

:spiderman twin meme thing:

[catastrophe]

Maybe it was already posted in here, I haven't fully kept up with the speed of this thread, but the Utah Gov vetoed their bill.  I appreciated his statement on it, which the article below has excerpts of.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/22/utah-governor-veto-transgender-sports-ban-00019417

And to add on my statement earlier, I think it’s total crap when lawmakers try to regulate these things like the bathroom bill and now a proposed ban on sports.

The law should be able to give context to what is considered equal opportunity and discrimination, but trying to take away organizations’ ability to otherwise organize their competitions seems really dumb to me and recently has been attempted in the most hateful ways.

[DQ12]

Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.

i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist.  but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.

[chum1]

Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.

i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist.  but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.

I think almost all participants know they'll never win. In swimming, for example, they've done enough of it that they have a really good idea of what their personal time results will be as well as what the winning times will be.

I'd assume it's more normal for sports participants in general to compete against their own personal bests than against the top competition.

[420seriouscat69]

 

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.

i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist.  but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.

full disclosure i was not an NCAA athlete but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone on the <pick a sport> team knows they're never going to come in first but they will be good enough to keep their spot on the team and keep their scholarship and i'd guess when it comes to the non-revenue sports those athletes go pro in something other than sports like basically 100% of the time

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.

i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist.  but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.

full disclosure i was not an NCAA athlete but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone on the <pick a sport> team knows they're never going to come in first but they will be good enough to keep their spot on the team and keep their scholarship and i'd guess when it comes to the non-revenue sports those athletes go pro in something other than sports like basically 100% of the time

and you know what else? maybe sometimes the real championship trophy is the friendships we made along the way

[DQ12]

Is there an implicit assumption in the anti-trans view that basically the only point of participating is winning (or at least medaling)? Because that rationale doesn't apply to very many of the overall participants.

i don't consider myself "anti trans," but i think "winning" is generally a major point in participating in competitive college athletic competitions -- not to say that other benefits don't exist.  but i think "having relative success" is kind of an across-the-board goal for competitors.

full disclosure i was not an NCAA athlete but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone on the <pick a sport> team knows they're never going to come in first but they will be good enough to keep their spot on the team and keep their scholarship and i'd guess when it comes to the non-revenue sports those athletes go pro in something other than sports like basically 100% of the time

and you know what else? maybe sometimes the real championship trophy is the friendships we made along the way

i think that's all true.  but if someone finishes ahead of you in [sport] and they're doing something (arguably) unfair, i think "you weren't gonna win/place anyway" rings kind of hollow.  stated differently, i think the girl finishing in fifth place could still feel cheated if she found out the girl who won the race was using steroids or whatever.

all that to say, i think there are better arguments supporting Lia Thomas than "winning/placing really isn't the point of college swimming"

[chum1]

I think the point is that having a "legit" winner is much more important to spectators and uninterested bystanders than to participants. And we should be honest about that. No one pays attention to the early rounds of competition which are full of non-winners.

[michigancat]

“I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion,”

:spiderman twin meme thing:

Yeah that's a decent approach