Author Topic: Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No  (Read 43337 times)

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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Trans athletes really shouldn't be competing in any sport that regulates drug use. There just isn't a fair way to allow for it.

Can you expand on this? Specifically the drug use part.

Trans people take hormones. Non-trans people aren't allowed to do that. Granted, the hormones a female trans athlete takes hinder performance, but that athlete also has a lot of natural hormones due to being born male, and it's impossible to regulate that fairly.

Is it?

Yes

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Maybe there are fair ways to regulate people who transitioned prior to puberty. I have no idea how you can even define what's fair for people like Lia Thomas who transition in their 20s.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 01:42:43 PM by Rage Against the McKee »

Offline ChiComCat

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No matter how effectively you regulate hormone therapy to be "fair," if a trans swimmer is winning then people will be upset.  People aren't debating the results of her hormone therapies anywhere significant, they're debating her competing while trans.

Offline Spracne

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Maybe there are fair ways to regulate people who transitioned prior to puberty. I have no idea how you can even define what's fair for people like Lia Thomas who transition in their 20s.

I find the notion preposterous that a male athlete would go through puberty and then transition (hormone therapy, gender reassignment potentially) as a ruse, solely to gain a competitive advantage against lesser competition. There are a ton of female athletes who are physically and genetically gifted that could absolutely whip my ass in any physical competition, including a fist fight. Is it fair that they have those physical and genetic advantages that other female athletes don't? Should they be penalized because of it?

Look at the shoulders on this broad:



I think the discussion (the legitimate one, not those being had in random pockets of the internet) is coalescing around requiring that certain hormone levels (e.g., testosterone) fall within certain ranges. In athletics, you can never guarantee physical parity (Britney Griner can dunk a basketball; I can't), but you can attempt to ensure that no athlete has an unfair chemical advantage. There's obviously a lot to think through. What if a female athlete (assigned F at birth) just naturally produces more testosterone than other women, for example? Would we have to require her to undergo hormone therapy to get within the same acceptable range for trans athletes? Or would those ranges only apply to trans athletes?

At the end of the day, what we, as laypersons, can and should be doing now is not attacking the trans athletes themselves who are merely trying to navigate a complicated and evolving system. (I am NOT implying you are doing so, to be clear.) Instead, we should focus on developing rules and systems that are as fair as possible. Everybody deserves dignity.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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I never said that a male athlete would transition post-puberty as a ruse. I said that it isn't fair. The hormone range that gets set is an arbitrary number. Should cisgendered women be allowed to take drugs that put them in the upper end of that range if they aren't there naturally? Should women who are above that range naturally be required to take drugs to put them within that range? The freaks of nature are what make sports fun. The key word there is "nature", though. I don't like the idea of allowing drugs, and with trans athletes, the regulations actually require drugs.

Offline catastrophe

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On the regulating hormone levels, I found this to be an interesting read: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570685/

It goes through some pains not to take sides so not going to be part of anyone’s winning argument, but a few points I found interesting:

1. The issue of whether certain testosterone levels should be acceptable in women’s sports has been around a while. I only skimmed but I don’t think the cases it mentioned are trans athletes.

2. There is a surprising amount of overlap between the “normal” range of testosterone in males vs females.

3. Arguably this just means that any sport concerned about “chemical fairness” needs to take into account a combination of measurable hormones, not just testosterone.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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I think it's better to let people perform with the body chemistry that they were born with. It's also probably a whole lot safer than it would be to regulate the testosterone level in a naturally born female. Trans athletes make that discussion a little more complicated.

In Lia Thomas's case, she was competing at the collegiate level as a man. That is a lot of weight lifting and muscle development with a body chemistry that females simply don't have. I really don't see it as all that different than a female athlete doping to bulk up, and then discontinuing the drugs to compete. She would still have added muscle mass providing some advantage.

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Is this the thread we're talking about dongs or is it a different one?

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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No matter how effectively you regulate hormone therapy to be "fair," if a trans swimmer is winning then people will be upset.  People aren't debating the results of her hormone therapies anywhere significant, they're debating her competing while trans.
^bingo

Offline 420seriouscat69

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For me it's strictly competitiveness in said competition. She swam vs D1 males and now swims vs D1 females. It's as simple as that. I don't have a solution for it and I don't feel he/she trans person should be barred from sports either. Just doesn't seem fair to me. That's all. Have a great weekend, everyone!

Offline sonofdaxjones

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British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.

We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.

I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily.    Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.

What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.

If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.

Offline MakeItRain

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ESPN and a handful of extra woke gE members taking the contrary approach. Definitely not seeing how this is remotely fair to any of the women involved. I'm even reading trans folk questioning the intent.

This is such horseshit, I would think you would be a rough ridin' adult and be able to have a conversation without using the term woke but that's apparently too much to ask. It's pretty rough ridin' disappointing to be honest. You must not be aware of this but it's possible to have an option about this without any political bend at all.

The thing that you and the rest of the it's not fair people continue to fail to reference is what's not fair about it? I haven't seen a single person be able to articulate what actual physical advantage she has that another woman can't have? You say it's unfair, be a big boy and tell us why it's unfair.

I don't think having a dick makes you a faster swimmer.

We have no idea what her levels of testosterone or estrogen levels are. And there's no proof at all as to what the hormonal tipping point is even if we did know her hormone levels.

There are several cis women swimmers that have very similar bodies as Lia and there are several men swimmers and otherwise are significantly smaller than Lia. Are y'all proposing weight classes in distance swimming? Katie Ledecky is just as big as Thomas and they're both the same size as Mark Spitz was, should we do a hormone check for Ledecky too? Missy Franklin is bigger, she's closer to Michael Phelps size than Ledecky and Thomas.

These arguments have jack crap to do with science and everything to do with ones view on transgender people and your use of the term woke reveals that buck naked truth. Maybe deal with your internal struggle about that before you saddle other people with wokeness.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Amazing


Offline IPA4Me

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Offline IPA4Me

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Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.

Women's champion.

Nah. No advantage.  GTFO.

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Offline MakeItRain

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British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.

We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.

I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily.    Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.

What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.

If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.

Big shocker I know but Dax is lying about the race, btw. Saying she pulled away and won handily is his interpretation. The clock said she won a 4.33 second race by 1.7 seconds, almost exactly the gap between 1st and 2nd the last three times this race has been contested at the national championships. Just an FYI but Thomas' time would have won last year's meet by .2 of a second but would have lost in 2019 by nearly 2 whole seconds.

Also worth noting that the Olympic sliver medalist was 19 years old when she won that medal and is 4 years younger than Thomas, she will be the gold medal favorite in Paris.

Also no one is attempting to silence anyone, what a rough ridin' ridiculous notion in America. Real people aren't talking about this outside of twitter and message boards. Just a rough ridin' clownish and cartoonish thing to say, but I guess I can't be surprised by this from people who search under every rock to find something to feel victimized by.

Offline MakeItRain

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Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.

Women's champion.

Nah. No advantage.  GTFO.

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What's. The rough ridin'. Advantage.

How many more posts will you have before you actually address that?

Offline IPA4Me

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Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.

Women's champion.

Nah. No advantage.  GTFO.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

What's. The rough ridin'. Advantage.

How many more posts will you have before you actually address that?
The years of muscle development while testosterone is pumping through his body.

How can you be so dense about this? It's simple rough ridin' biology.

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.

We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.

I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily.    Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.

What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.

If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.

Big shocker I know but Dax is lying about the race, btw. Saying she pulled away and won handily is his interpretation. The clock said she won a 4.33 second race by 1.7 seconds, almost exactly the gap between 1st and 2nd the last three times this race has been contested at the national championships. Just an FYI but Thomas' time would have won last year's meet by .2 of a second but would have lost in 2019 by nearly 2 whole seconds.

Also worth noting that the Olympic sliver medalist was 19 years old when she won that medal and is 4 years younger than Thomas, she will be the gold medal favorite in Paris.

Also no one is attempting to silence anyone, what a rough ridin' ridiculous notion in America. Real people aren't talking about this outside of twitter and message boards. Just a rough ridin' clownish and cartoonish thing to say, but I guess I can't be surprised by this from people who search under every rock to find something to feel victimized by.

There's quite literally nothing more  :lol: then trying to back up your ridiculous argument by stating that we don't know if having a dong makes you a faster swimmer or not.

When everyone knows this has literally nothing to do with regular Joe's and Jill's walking the streets of America.

Relative to silencing, you must live in some sort of information vacuum.   Goodness gracious.   For example they just tried to have a forum featuring a pro Christian advocacy group and a non-Christian rights (Atheist) group at Harvard and the Harvard law students showed up several hundred strong and got the whole thing shut down because they didn't like the Christian advocacy group.   The forum was about free speech and how the two groups had actually worked together.   I digress.

You also know full well that individual events and conditions  etc. etc. can impact performance so what the times were in past years is immaterial. 






« Last Edit: March 18, 2022, 04:15:33 PM by sonofdaxjones »

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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In this case, she was working out as a fully grown man just a year or two ago. Men naturally build more muscle than women, and that muscle doesn't immediately disappear when you start taking hormones to regulate testosterone levels. And setting a line for maximum testosterone level may even be problematic because someone serious about competition who is regulating their testosterone is always going to put themselves right on that line. Are we also going to allow women to dope themselves up to the line? What about women who are naturally over the line?

Offline MadCat

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Could we do 3 categories? People born boys, people born girls, and free-for-all?

Offline catastrophe

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British study on Olympic athletes says hormone therapy for 1 year isn't enough, up to 2 possibly 3 years needed, and even then that may not be enough.

We had a highly conditioned and trained and physically superior male swimming against highly conditioned and trained females.

I appreciate the fact that that the commentators were saying she (he) was pushed, but I've watched the video and Thomas pulled away and won handily.    Against 3 female Olympians including a 2020 Silver Medalist on that event.

What I find most disgusting is the some #blueanon'ers that used to run around screaming about women's rights, now attempt to silence anyone, including women athletes who speak out about this.

If you're whole narrative is, "I can't wait for this to go away" then consider yourself on the wrong side of the narrative.

Big shocker I know but Dax is lying about the race, btw. Saying she pulled away and won handily is his interpretation. The clock said she won a 4.33 second race by 1.7 seconds, almost exactly the gap between 1st and 2nd the last three times this race has been contested at the national championships. Just an FYI but Thomas' time would have won last year's meet by .2 of a second but would have lost in 2019 by nearly 2 whole seconds.

Also worth noting that the Olympic sliver medalist was 19 years old when she won that medal and is 4 years younger than Thomas, she will be the gold medal favorite in Paris.

Also no one is attempting to silence anyone, what a rough ridin' ridiculous notion in America. Real people aren't talking about this outside of twitter and message boards. Just a rough ridin' clownish and cartoonish thing to say, but I guess I can't be surprised by this from people who search under every rock to find something to feel victimized by.
Those are some sexy af stats to inform the conversation.

Offline MakeItRain

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Men's 460+ ranked collegiate swimmer.

Women's champion.

Nah. No advantage.  GTFO.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

What's. The rough ridin'. Advantage.

How many more posts will you have before you actually address that?
The years of muscle development while testosterone is pumping through his body.

How can you be so dense about this? It's simple rough ridin' biology.

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Okay, so this supposed advantage is a theoretical one and not one that you actually know of factually. Cool, I'm glad we're on the same page.

I've been careful not to call anyone a bigot here but your intentional misgendering of Lia is a whole lot of walking and talking like a duck, so let's just call a spade a spade here. It's pretty clear that, for you, this isn't about women's athletics but about transgender people. You can drop the facade, the agenda is pretty clear.

Offline IPA4Me

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Oh dear. The board racist is calling me names. How will I ever live?

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Offline 420seriouscat69

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