Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[Trim]

Nearly 20% of all people who identify as trans come from a narrow 4-year age group.

[DQ12]

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/

Serious question, what am I missing? The very first line of that says

Nearly one in five people who identify as transgender are ages 13-17.

Isn't that saying that less than 20% of people who identify as trans are high school and middle schoolers?

~20% of the entire population being 13-17 strike me as disproportionate.  Probably a few things working behind the scenes there:

1.  Most older Gen X'rs and beyond spent their formative years in a world where being trans was extremely tabboo (moreso than now).  So coming out or exploring it was never really a realistic option.
2.  The other side of that coin is that now that being trans is more widely accepted, younger people see exploring/coming out as a viable option.
3.  Trans suicide rates probably contribute to there being fewer older trans people than younger trans people.

[MakeItRain]

Nearly 20% of all people who identify as trans come from a narrow 4-year age group.

Yeah, I get that but he said this


Yes, but the percentages over 35 years old is almost certainly in the single digits so roughly 70% of those remaining people who identify as trans are going to be in the young adult age range.

[DQ12]

Here's an interesting website on trans demographics and kind of what we're talking about here.  I know nothing about the source, fair warning.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/

It has a table in there setting forth the state by state and total US demographics, separates by age groups (13-17, 18-24, 25-64).  That says that a little over 1.4% of 13-17 year olds identify as trans.  In NY, it's 3%.

[Dugout DickStone]

Just catching up on the last 24 hours of this thread but MiR thank you, your sentiment was incredibly well put and your dismantling of that lady’s argument was very succinct.

What’s really frustrating is that there are a lot of otherwise reasonable, well meaning people out there who feel uncomfortable with transgenderism for whatever reason, and are looking for a little confirmation bias so when someone with letters after their name sounds intelligent when speaking and tells them what they want to hear, theyre happy to swallow it hook line and sinker and then to proselytize that idea.

but they just want to be left alone to be aggressively worried about women's high school sports in different states.  Why can't you leave them alone to be enraged that a girl they have never and will never meet might possibly finish 8th instead of 7th.

Leave them alone to lose their crap about this and try and ban these teens from competing or they will get psycho-ass violent

[Dugout DickStone]

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/

Serious question, what am I missing? The very first line of that says

Nearly one in five people who identify as transgender are ages 13-17.

Isn't that saying that less than 20% of people who identify as trans are high school and middle schoolers?

~20% of the entire population being 13-17 strike me as disproportionate.  Probably a few things working behind the scenes there:

1.  Most older Gen X'rs and beyond spent their formative years in a world where being trans was extremely tabboo (moreso than now).  So coming out or exploring it was never really a realistic option.
2.  The other side of that coin is that now that being trans is more widely accepted, younger people see exploring/coming out as a viable option.
3.  Trans suicide rates probably contribute to there being fewer older trans people than younger trans people.

this is pretty telling

[sonofdaxjones]

Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.

On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt  that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of:  Never question us!!

[Dugout DickStone]

Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.

On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt  that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of:  Never question us!!

I am for sure never question me but that is because I am exponentially smarter than you.

[sonofdaxjones]

Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.

On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt  that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of:  Never question us!!

I am for sure never question me but that is because I am exponentially smarter than you.

You have the depth of a child's wading pool.

And  at your constant sub posting

[Dugout DickStone]

Slowdug joins OKC on the eff (figuratively) them (cis-gendered) girls team.

On top of reminding us of his inert authoritarian tendencies coupled with his overt  that people talk about things he doesn't approve of . . . which walks hand in hand with the #blueanon doctrine of:  Never question us!!

I am for sure never question me but that is because I am exponentially smarter than you.

You have the depth of a child's wading pool.

And  at your constant sub posting

  some more

[sonofdaxjones]

The usual tapout . . . noted and accepted.   

[sys]

Here's an interesting website on trans demographics...

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/

that's the same link that i posted.  that you commented on, indicating that you probably clicked on the link that i provided and then read some of the content there (before 30 minutes later googling, finding the same source and not recognizing it?).

[sys]

Yes, but the percentages over 35 years old is almost certainly in the single digits so roughly 70% of those remaining people who identify as trans are going to be in the young adult age range.

i don't really understand your comment, but as others have mentioned, both of the links i provided show data that a higher % of young people, including persons of hs age, identify as trans than occurs among older people.

[Cartierfor3]

Feel like this thread is going a lot of places.


Is the argument being made:

A) Look, you're talking about 4 kids in the entire state of Utah, this is not a big enough deal to even bother addressing it, it's such an outlier to most athletic competitions it's not worth our time.

or

B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.

or is it a combo?

If it's A I mean I guess there's validity. I'm sure there are thousands of kids who get an unfair shake in high school athletics. Their coach is a jerk or incompetent, they got cut by a racist coach, they got screwed by a hometown ref, they are a good player at whatever sport but never got to play on a good team because their school sucks, the booster club is crap so they have crap equipment etc. And you're right, I don't really give any thought to those, I guess we'll call them unfair situations- so why make it such a big deal if one NCAA swimmer or whatever gets a spot taken by a trans swimmer?

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

[catastrophe]

Feel like this thread is going a lot of places.


Is the argument being made:

A) Look, you're talking about 4 kids in the entire state of Utah, this is not a big enough deal to even bother addressing it, it's such an outlier to most athletic competitions it's not worth our time.

or

B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.

or is it a combo?

If it's A I mean I guess there's validity. I'm sure there are thousands of kids who get an unfair shake in high school athletics. Their coach is a jerk or incompetent, they got cut by a racist coach, they got screwed by a hometown ref, they are a good player at whatever sport but never got to play on a good team because their school sucks, the booster club is crap so they have crap equipment etc. And you're right, I don't really give any thought to those, I guess we'll call them unfair situations- so why make it such a big deal if one NCAA swimmer or whatever gets a spot taken by a trans swimmer?

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

To your point, I think there is a reasonable discussion to be had (and to some extent has been had ITT) about fairness in sports and if there is a balance that can be struck between allowing students to participate in sports as the gender they identify with vs. limiting unfair advantages.

Where it has landed, though, is very few people who raise the issue are interested in having that discussion. Instead, they’re using it as pretense to criticize people they already don’t like. So I think most of the actual discussion here is geared towards that piece of it, if that makes sense.

[MakeItRain]

Yes, but the percentages over 35 years old is almost certainly in the single digits so roughly 70% of those remaining people who identify as trans are going to be in the young adult age range.

i don't really understand your comment, but as others have mentioned, both of the links i provided show data that a higher % of young people, including persons of hs age, identify as trans than occurs among older people.

You didn't understand but felt the need to comment beyond asking for a clarification?

pretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.

I guess if we're going to continue down this road I should ask what you mean by "older americans."  I took that as you saying literally older than everyone in high school, otherwise your original clarification was pretty unnecessary. If you meant literal old people, like the 65+ group in the UCLA study, I have to wonder who, reading this board, that you think didn't know that?

[MakeItRain]

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

Well, I think different people are making different arguments, mine has nothing to do with the amount of transgender people or athletes that exist. Which speaks to the question I have for you. Can you help me to see what any of the conversation, narrowly about transgender girls and women competing against cisgender girls and women, broadly about transgender rights, have to do with personal freedom?

Do cisgender girls have the constitutional right to compete against certain people with a specific range of body composition? If you're 5'5" 135 pounds and trans you're not infringing on the rights of the high school softball player and her very involved parents, or do those rights only get infringed upon if she's 5'11" 170?

What personal freedom does anyone have when it comes to who their opponents are when playing sports? I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?

[Rage Against the McKee]

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

Well, I think different people are making different arguments, mine has nothing to do with the amount of transgender people or athletes that exist. Which speaks to the question I have for you. Can you help me to see what any of the conversation, narrowly about transgender girls and women competing against cisgender girls and women, broadly about transgender rights, have to do with personal freedom?

Do cisgender girls have the constitutional right to compete against certain people with a specific range of body composition? If you're 5'5" 135 pounds and trans you're not infringing on the rights of the high school softball player and her very involved parents, or do those rights only get infringed upon if she's 5'11" 170?

What personal freedom does anyone have when it comes to who their opponents are when playing sports? I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?

It depends on the sport. In wrestling or boxing, for example, you do get matched up with someone at a similar weight. And any credible league will regulate doping to help prevent body chemistry from becoming too lopsided.

I don't think there should be laws for any of this. Individual sports leagues should set their own rules and limitations.

[sys]

You didn't understand but felt the need to comment beyond asking for a clarification?

yeah.  your comment to my post previous to the one i quoted was phrased as a question to me so i felt an obligation to respond.

pretty sure %s are much higher among younger americans than older americans.

I guess if we're going to continue down this road I should ask what you mean by "older americans."  I took that as you saying literally older than everyone in high school, otherwise your original clarification was pretty unnecessary. If you meant literal old people, like the 65+ group in the UCLA study, I have to wonder who, reading this board, that you think didn't know that?

iirc, excluding young children, for any two age ranges the younger cohort features a higher % that identifies as trans than the older.


if you're asking the point of my original comment, it was to point out the reason why 0.44% of hs athletes identifying as trans could both be less than the % of hs students that identify as trans and higher than the % of americans that identify as trans.

[Trim]

I got my a ass whipped by a woman in a over 40 men's tennis tournament. Were my rights violated? Anyone willing to fight for my rights to compete against mediocre middle aged men instead of slightly less mediocre women in their 30s?

Was this a transgender example or did your tournament have too few participants a la strut n cut being bumped into the d-1 league?

[sonofdaxjones]

Goodness.  Just amazing

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Feel like this thread is going a lot of places.


Is the argument being made:

A) Look, you're talking about 4 kids in the entire state of Utah, this is not a big enough deal to even bother addressing it, it's such an outlier to most athletic competitions it's not worth our time.

or

B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.

or is it a combo?

If it's A I mean I guess there's validity. I'm sure there are thousands of kids who get an unfair shake in high school athletics. Their coach is a jerk or incompetent, they got cut by a racist coach, they got screwed by a hometown ref, they are a good player at whatever sport but never got to play on a good team because their school sucks, the booster club is crap so they have crap equipment etc. And you're right, I don't really give any thought to those, I guess we'll call them unfair situations- so why make it such a big deal if one NCAA swimmer or whatever gets a spot taken by a trans swimmer?

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

CF3 let me take a crack at this using an analogy you might better understand. Lets say, you're a sports fan. You don't really care for football or basketball, but you just love the crap out of baseball. you live it, you breathe it, it is your thing. But here's the other thing...you're an A's fan. You didn't choose it. You can't imagine anyone would willingly choose this team to root for. You've tried, god knows you've tried, to be a Dodgers fan or a Yankees fan or a Giants fan, your life would be so much easier if those were your teams. But no. For whatever reason, you just love the crap out of the A's with every fiber of your being.

Ok now so lets switch gears. MLB has noticed there has been an uptick in fights between fans at games. The fanbases overwhelmingly responsible for the fights would be the Yankees, the Dodgers, the Cardinals, and the Braves. The A's fans...they're responsible for, oh, let's say one half of one percent of the fights that happen. But one time an Angels fan got into a scrape with an A's fan and while the Angels fan was pummelling the ever loving crap out of the A's fan, the A's fan managed to reach into his pocket and grab his keys and got in one good swing and put the Angels fan's eye out.

So what happened as a result? Well turns out a few Twins fans happened to see the whole thing and they were mad as hell and they went to the commissioner of baseball and demanded that from now on, before entering any stadium, all A's fans were required to be fully strip searched with cavity check to make sure they weren't bringing in any weapons, that includes keys. This rule only applies to the A's fans, mind you. A's fans, no keys. Any other fanbase...have all the keys you want, we really don't care if you have your keys, after all, its incredibly stupid to forbid a fan from carrying their keys.

So like...how are you, the A's fan, feeling right now? Your life already sucks pretty hard as it is, your team is a perrenial basement dweller, nobody cares about the team, there are like 50 total A's fans in the entire country, and now they want to pile on, over something where its obvious the Angels fan was just feeling really insecure because he has to wear an eye patch now because an A's fan got in a lucky swing during a fight that he started.

Its not a perfect analogy, i realize, but maybe if you try looking at it through that lens does that help at all?

[michigancat]

B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

I'm just going to address this. I don't think it's about a right to "happiness" for trans kids, it's about a right to participate in society the way they are. To MiR's point, all the cis kids have that right whether or not a trans kid participates! What personal freedom or right do they lose if a trans kid participates?

Another way to look at it: you're equating the sadness of a trans kid not being allowed to participate in a sport at all with the sadness of a kid who perhaps finishes 8th instead of 7th.  (Or even 2nd instead or 1st!) Do you think that's a fair equivalence? There is always a balance of rights but i think one party is going to be much more damaged in this scenario. Like the Republican governor said, let's err on the side of compassion.

[Cartierfor3]

Rusty that last post really helps me understand your position much more clearly (and MIR's too). Thanks. I will respond more thoughtfully tomorrow when I have a break in my day.

[star seed 7]

B) To infringe upon their right to play sports is infringing on their right to happiness, so back off bub.

I'm thinking about this issue less on a Clay Travis style case by case call for outrage, but more on asking questions like if we all have personal freedom, where does one person's or group of people's personal freedom end and another's begin? There are boundaries.

I'm just going to address this. I don't think it's about a right to "happiness" for trans kids, it's about a right to participate in society the way they are. To MiR's point, all the cis kids have that right whether or not a trans kid participates! What personal freedom or right do they lose if a trans kid participates?

Another way to look at it: you're equating the sadness of a trans kid not being allowed to participate in a sport at all with the sadness of a kid who perhaps finishes 8th instead of 7th.  (Or even 2nd instead or 1st!) Do you think that's a fair equivalence? There is always a balance of rights but i think one party is going to be much more damaged in this scenario. Like the Republican governor said, let's err on the side of compassion.

Extremely well said