Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[420seriouscat69]

Pretty open and shut case here, folks! Former D1 male swimmer now competes against women after a transition and the far left doesn’t think she has an advantage. The wokeness is amaze!

[kim carnes]

Was she a national title contender as a male?  If not, then uhhhh… I think we have our answer to the op’s question.

Wouldn’t just about all female title contenders NOT be national title contenders if they swam in male competitions? I’m struggling to follow the logic here.

Uhhh… what?

Yeah I mean same. If you want to clarify your point I think that would help a lot.

She was an average college swimmer as a male, she transitions, she wins the national title.  Do I need to make a flowchart?  Did she suddenly become a great swimmer or could there be another reason?  Apparently you think all non-transgendered females are awful swimmers?

None of this matters, I don’t think Lia or other people are transitioning with the intent of dominating female sports or at least I hope not.

[catastrophe]

If your point is that women on average swim slower than men in competitions then I agree. What I’m still struggling with is why that is proof of anything in this conversation. Pluck the female born swimmer who was runner up to Lia in an event or the swimmer who Lia was runner up to and I’m guessing if thrust into male swim meets they would also be middling male swim competitors.

[420seriouscat69]

Chicks > dicks

[steve dave]

wacky, other than raging out about the current state of affairs what is your proposed solution? trans athletes must participate in sports based on their assigned sex on their birth certificate, barred entirely from competition, some other solution?

[420seriouscat69]

Maybe they just can’t compete until they get their own division. A former D1 male swimmer should not be able to compete vs females two years after transition and anyone trying to make a case for it has went off the deep end. But I’m just lil ole crazy wacky, not up to date with the new woke trends. Hopefully god forgives me for such a sinful take.

[bucket]

This isn't complicated. One side doesn't want people banned from competition for simply being trans. The other side, or the NCAA, needs to come up with a rule that doesn't ban people for simply being trans. One solution might be testosterone regulations similar to what the Olympic Committee institutes.

[420seriouscat69]

There’s also a side playing dumb tho for their point, acting like there’s no advantages here. I’m just getting a good chuckle out of that bunch. Very well done.

[nicname]

This isn't complicated. One side doesn't want people banned from competition for simply being trans. The other side, or the NCAA, needs to come up with a rule that doesn't ban people for simply being trans. One solution might be testosterone regulations similar to what the Olympic Committee institutes.

One interesting aspect is that the NCAA and USA Swimming are not in agreement over trans women competing. I was talking to a buddy last night who swam competitively at KU about it, and he said USA Swimming won’t let trans women compete unless testosterone is “women’s level” and won’t count records they set.

He said it’s a huge deal in the swimming community. Most in the swimming community are against trans women competing with biological females.

Funnily enough the convo came up because he was telling us about how a couple of weeks ago he reached out to a former co-worker to offer him a job as a programmer at his current company (a children’s hospital in KC). When the programmer showed up to the peanut in joco, my buddy was surprised to see that he was now a she (pre-op) and had changed her name to Briana.  My buddy obviously still offered her the job, but Briana is too good of a programmer and he couldn’t meet her salary demands.

Brianna has had a rough last couple of years. She was a married father of two until her wife died of Covid about a year and a half ago.

The world is utterly bizarre.

[catastrophe]

This isn't complicated. One side doesn't want people banned from competition for simply being trans. The other side, or the NCAA, needs to come up with a rule that doesn't ban people for simply being trans. One solution might be testosterone regulations similar to what the Olympic Committee institutes.

One interesting aspect is that the NCAA and USA Swimming are not in agreement over trans women competing. I was talking to a buddy last night who swam competitively at KU about it, and he said USA Swimming won’t let trans women compete unless testosterone is “women’s level” and won’t count records they set.

He said it’s a huge deal in the swimming community. Most in the swimming community are against trans women competing with biological females.

I don’t think requiring a certain testosterone level is at odds with the idea of letting trans women compete, unless you’re saying the community is against trans women competing regardless of any measurable advantage.

It seems to me the most likely reason NCAA wouldn’t have a similar policy is because they have a lot more student athletes to deal with and testing them all would be difficult.

[420seriouscat69]

Makes sense why MIR said she’d never be in the 2024 Olympics. Good call, MIR! She just stole the hopes and dreams of women's life long dreams of winning a National championship vs the world. At least that hurts less.

[Trim]

He said it’s a huge deal in the swimming community.

That makes two communities this is a huge deal in.

[420seriouscat69]

I do love how super lib’s move goal posts and say there’s nothing to see here, since the liberal media won’t cover a viable story.

[Spracne]

I do love how super lib’s move goal posts and say there’s nothing to see here, since the liberal media won’t cover a viable story.

Pretty sure I'm done discussing this with you, since you've shown you have no interest in having an actual conversation.

[420seriouscat69]

When you cover your boy @catastrophe on all ends, because you hung out with the dude a few times, it’s exhausting trying to make a simple moderate point down here these days. You know how hard it is to get a D1 Mens scholarship and compete? My bro ran cross country and track at ULM and the odds are insane. Now imagine that person transition into a female sport at the same level in two years. Call me a bigot, MAGA, whatever, but it’s wrong.

Do I have a solution? No. Maybe they shouldn’t be able to compete tho after transition. Just spit balling here.

[sys]

at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have.  on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect.  on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.

the only point i have to offer that i think might possibly be of any value is that it probably isn't by chance that this debate has landed on  swimming, where it would seem to the casual observer (me) that m/f differences in muscle mass and the such that are more temporary in nature when hormones are imposed or withdrawn are relatively less important than more permanent features such as hand/foot size and limb length.

[steve dave]

at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have.  on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect.  on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.

yes, same

[catastrophe]

On that suspension of disbelief point, the funny thing about people holding up Lia as proof that men are generally superior to women in swimming is that it’s completely unnecessary.

Men and women (at least at the Olympic level) swim the same events and distances. Anyone can easily just compare the times side by side.

[420seriouscat69]

I never expected the far left to turn their backs on science to try and make a point, but here we are!

@sys Yup!

[MakeItRain]

5th in the 200
8th in the 100

Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.

[420seriouscat69]

5th in the 200
8th in the 100

Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.

I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend. Pump those numbers if he’s competing vs men or anyone else. He never made finals as a male.

[MakeItRain]

I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.

What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.

[420seriouscat69]

I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.

What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.

I’m legit calling you out for the same crap you call everyone else out on. Fake crap. If your daughter trained her whole life to win a natty and lost to a trans person 2 years in transition, you wouldn’t be singing this toon.

[Spracne]

I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.

What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.

Stop cornering him! He's likely to lash out like an animaniac if you keep singing that "toon."

[MakeItRain]

at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have.  on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect.  on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.

yes, same

I'm not going to speak for anyone other than myself but the nuance of this situation is very important and my issue is that the two posters I'm arguing with in this thread and pretty much everyone discussing it on social media, of course, don't want to have a nuanced conversation about this issue.

I don't think anyone is ignorant to the physiological differences between men and women, especially those in their early to mid 20s, this age group may have the most striking differences. However, in the very specific case of Lia Thomas we have no idea what her physiological differences are and how they are manifested in swimming. Sure, it feels like something is unfair, but I want to know what is unfair. All of the things we know, other than she was born a male, either indicates she doesn't have an advantage or that advantage is undefined.

We know there are other successful women swimmers with the same body type as Lia. So if her body is something that other women can and do have, how is that some unfair, unachievable advantage?

We have no idea what her hormone levels are, how long she's been on estrogen, whether or not she's continuing to take estrogen during the season, and what effect hormone levels have on swimming and swimmers in general. Her times in the 500 are about 15-18 seconds slower competing as a woman than she did as a man, so it stands to reason that the estrogen has had some effect..

If the difference is purely physiological, I'm going to need to know why that difference only manifests itself in one distance for Thomas.

Why aren't we discussing things like lung capacity or natural levels of oxygen in the blood? We know that Thomas' supposed advantage isn't speed, she's worse at the shorter distances.

I think there is a conversation to be had here discussing these things and more. I'd love to have a discussion about trans men and women in distance running. Elite men and women distance runners have similar body types so why are the times so disparate?

Anyway, these discussions aren't going to happen here because wacky is just interested in trolling and discussing posters. IPA has nothing other than it's not fair and making some weird point by calling Lia a man, and dax is dax.

I think it was Chi Cat who said it but this thread clearly isn't about trans athletes, it's about trans people.