Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[catastrophe]

all that to say, i think there are better arguments supporting Lia Thomas than "winning/placing really isn't the point of college swimming"

Agree with that, but I definitely think it’s a fair counterpoint vs. the people acting like the world is being ruined for their future hypothetical daughters who maybe might swim and could potentially be good at it.

[Kid In the Hall]

Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't, but at the NCAA championships - for any given individual event (except for perhaps the 50 free), there are probably no more than 5 athletes with a realistic chance to win that particular event. And, generally, there may be as many as 50-60 people competing in each individual event. Every single one of those people outside the top 5 is well aware that they have basically zero chance to win.

[MakeItRain]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.

[yoga-like_abana]

It can still not be fair.

[Rage Against the McKee]

It's certainly possible that Lia Thomas is actually just a really good swimmer and wouldn't be world class if she wasn't born in a male body.

['taterblast]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.

i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.

['taterblast]

this topic has made its way to Missouri political ads. plastering Lia's face on their to gain votes. it's rough ridin' disgusting.

[MakeItRain]

Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't, but at the NCAA championships - for any given individual event (except for perhaps the 50 free), there are probably no more than 5 athletes with a realistic chance to win that particular event. And, generally, there may be as many as 50-60 people competing in each individual event. Every single one of those people outside the top 5 is well aware that they have basically zero chance to win.

Yes, this is the same in track. The most maddening part of this conversation, if you want to call it that, is the refusal to acknowledge a difference between a sport in which you're competing against a clock and let's say a combat sport.

In wacky's world of, if it were your daughter you'd be pissed, I'm very sure that if my daughter complained about running or swimming against a transgirl, I would tell her to swim faster. Lia Thomas isn't the fastest woman's swimmer that's even competing today. Her time doesn't have a damn thing to do with anyone else's training or capacity for speed.

If Emma Wyant swam the same time in 2021 you know what place she would have gotten? 2nd. She swims the same time in 2019 her place would have been 3rd.

You want to win, rough ridin' swim faster. People keep insisting that Thomas had an advantage but not a single damn person can articulate what that advantage is.

[MakeItRain]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.

i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.

I wasn't making a point, I was answering the question as to why Henig made the choice to continue to compete with women, he can't take testosterone. I'm aware that cis women can beat cis men in sports. I'm not the one making the "it's not fair" arguments.

[MakeItRain]

this topic has made its way to Missouri political ads. plastering Lia's face on their to gain votes. it's rough ridin' disgusting.

It's bigotry and anyone not rebuking this behavior are also guilty of bigotry.

['taterblast]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.

i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.

I wasn't making a point, I was answering the question as to why Henig made the choice to continue to compete with women, he can't take testosterone. I'm aware that cis women can beat cis men in sports. I'm not the one making the "it's not fair" arguments.

i just think it's as simple as if a person goes through puberty as a male they will be perceived as having an advantage over cis females forever regardless of any factors of their transition. i'm not even in the galaxy of being an expert on this topic but i don't think that perception, even if it's not reality, is ever going to go away. and i also don't think it's absurd to say there *can be* advantages to being born male. i tend to think through these things in extreme examples - one in my head is males that grow to be 7 feet tall and then transition to being female. in general this person likely wouldn't have grown to 7 feet tall if they were born female. so if this person is a basketball player and they transition, they're a 7 foot tall female playing basketball.

i realize that's a far-fetched hypothetical example. and i will reiterate i am not sure what the answer is. it's either ban trans females from competition altogether or fully allow them. i think i lean toward letting them compete with the acceptance that there will probably be occurrences of advantages resulting from being born male.

[420seriouscat69]

Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn't, but at the NCAA championships - for any given individual event (except for perhaps the 50 free), there are probably no more than 5 athletes with a realistic chance to win that particular event. And, generally, there may be as many as 50-60 people competing in each individual event. Every single one of those people outside the top 5 is well aware that they have basically zero chance to win.

Yes, this is the same in track. The most maddening part of this conversation, if you want to call it that, is the refusal to acknowledge a difference between a sport in which you're competing against a clock and let's say a combat sport.

In wacky's world of, if it were your daughter you'd be pissed, I'm very sure that if my daughter complained about running or swimming against a transgirl, I would tell her to swim faster. Lia Thomas isn't the fastest woman's swimmer that's even competing today. Her time doesn't have a damn thing to do with anyone else's training or capacity for speed.

If Emma Wyant swam the same time in 2021 you know what place she would have gotten? 2nd. She swims the same time in 2019 her place would have been 3rd.

You want to win, rough ridin' swim faster. People keep insisting that Thomas had an advantage but not a single damn person can articulate what that advantage is.

[420seriouscat69]

Saying you don’t think it’s fair that a former D1 Male swimmer is now competing against women after transition makes you a bigot, dumbasses! Wake up and grow up!!!

[420seriouscat69]

What a shitty thing to say to someone. You win, MIR. I’m out! Go Lia!

[420seriouscat69]

I guarantee if you polled most of America vs wokeMAW, most of the population would feel similar to how I feel on it. crap ton of bigots out there, apparently. But not MIR and remember folks, using the term cracker all the time doesn’t make you racist in his world either. Good crap!

[Spracne]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.

i'm failing to see how this logic proves your point. there are all kinds of cis women that can beat cis men at a given sport or competition, but they still compete in men's and women's divisons/leagues separately.

I wasn't making a point, I was answering the question as to why Henig made the choice to continue to compete with women, he can't take testosterone. I'm aware that cis women can beat cis men in sports. I'm not the one making the "it's not fair" arguments.

i just think it's as simple as if a person goes through puberty as a male they will be perceived as having an advantage over cis females forever regardless of any factors of their transition. i'm not even in the galaxy of being an expert on this topic but i don't think that perception, even if it's not reality, is ever going to go away. and i also don't think it's absurd to say there *can be* advantages to being born male. i tend to think through these things in extreme examples - one in my head is males that grow to be 7 feet tall and then transition to being female. in general this person likely wouldn't have grown to 7 feet tall if they were born female. so if this person is a basketball player and they transition, they're a 7 foot tall female playing basketball.

i realize that's a far-fetched hypothetical example. and i will reiterate i am not sure what the answer is. it's either ban trans females from competition altogether or fully allow them. i think i lean toward letting them compete with the acceptance that there will probably be occurrences of advantages resulting from being born male.

This is fallacious reasoning.

[Spracne]

I guarantee if you polled most of America vs wokeMAW, most of the population would feel similar to how I feel on it. crap ton of bigots out there, apparently. But not MIR and remember folks, using the term cracker all the time doesn’t make you racist in his world either. Good crap!

Correct, which is the most frustrating part of this.

[Spracne]

my daughter has been swimming competitively for like 7 years. I asked her about Lia Thomas and she had no idea who she was but I learned she actually had a trans swimmer on her club in California. I asked what she thought about it and she was like "why would I even think about that."

Weird, I talked to my 2 and a half year old son about it, who's been swimming in pools since day 1 and he spit out his coffee & tossed his cigarette after hearing about it. Pretty wild what different households can do to our children.

I literally lol'd at this, because I was having a similar thought.

[michigancat]

Ha I get wacks' point but I was honestly surprised she hadn't really heard about Lia when she like follows USA Swimming pretty closely and all her friends are swimmers.

[420seriouscat69]

I was waiting for a lol there.

[star seed 7]

So, low iq question about all this. A few weeks ago Lia lost to a ftm trans guy, why was that swimmer competing in the women's league as well? I've been confused about that since I read it but know absolutely no detail past that.

He, Isaac Henig, has not started taking testosterone yet because of NCAA rules. So to recap, Isaac Henig, born a female, not yet taking testosterone, defeated Lia Thomas, who was born male and has been on estrogen for two years. It's a real mind eff for the is not fair crowd, or it would be if they were remotely interested in reality instead of fantasyland adventures.

Ah, OK. That makes a ton more sense.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Here are the elements of the argument for why the effort to ban trans athletes is anti-trans or trans-phobic as I understand things as a straight cis white man:

• Sex and Gender are distinct concepts.  Sex is assigned at birth based on genitalia. Gender is a societal construct of expected physical, psychological, and emotional traits.
• Gender identity is just that, the gender construct that a person identifies with.
• A transgender person is someone who's sex at birth doesn't match with their expression of gender or gender identity
• Denial of gender identity(and other 'identities' like race) causes harm in terms of self-esteem and mental health(stress/anxiety/depression/death by suicide)
• Not allowing trans athletes to compete with others of their gender is denial of gender identity and causes harm.
• All humans have varying levels of physical ability.  Regardless of how you personally define 'gender', this is obviously true even within genders. Giannis Antetokounpmo is a male and a 7 foot freak of nature.  I am a male and I am not a 7 foot freak of nature. It's totally palatable to me that some males have greater physical ability than I do for certain tasks.
• The fact that someone else who belongs to the same gender as you has greater physical ability doesn't give you the right to deny their gender identity and cause them harm.  James Harden can't send Giannis to the WNBA because Giannis is taller and better at Basketball than he is...that's clearly ridiculous.

Putting it all together, the argument goes like this:
Trans women are women. Not allowing women to compete in women's sports denies their gender identity which leads to mental health issues and harm. Consideration for perceived physical disparity of other competitors in an amateur competition like college swimming doesn't justify denial of an entire class of people's gender identity because physical disparity is a feature of all athletic competitions and nobody is entitled to a goddamn medal in the first place. The idea that we need to legislate against trans athletes or else there will be so many people who would willingly subject themselves to the onslaught of hate/violence that trans folks are subjected to in order to just gain an advantage in an amateur swim race is so laughable it can't be taken seriously.

tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).

I'm sure I said things wrong, though I tried to be diligent.  If someone is able to state this better than me or can point to a reference that does, please jump in.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?

[catastrophe]

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?

How funny would it be if conservatives ended up insisting on transitioning occurring pre-pubert for the sake of preserving the integrity of sports.

I don’t think you’re wrong, but I also think that the problem you identify would improve drastically if we were more accepting of transgender people.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I wouldn't count on conservatives supporting anything other than an outright ban. They are mostly awful.