Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[BIG APPLE CAT]

It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?

Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.

Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.

Age/grade is a pretty easy differentiator because no matter how much HRT you have or how many operations you have, it doesn't change what makes you that <age> or <grade>.

Regarding the second part, it kind of sounds like you are imagining this kid as a wolf in sheep's clothing...secretly knowing the whole time that in reality they identify as a boy but are taking advantage of the fact that they can say they're a girl and gain a competitive advantage. Try to understand that if this trans girl is identifying as a girl, it's because that's how she sincerely identifies no differently than you know at your very core that you are a male, so making her compete on the boys team is how you would feel if you were told you had to play on the girls team. I promise promise promise you, these kids would not sign up for a lifetime of ostracization/ridicule/being hated for simply existing/etc. just so they could maybe gain an advantage at high school sports. Like that isn’t a thing. At all.

That’s like saying “handicapped people get all the best parking spaces I think I’ll paralyze myself from the waist down”

[michigancat]

It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?

Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.

The 11th grader probably wouldn't cause much harm either, but they wouldn't be doing it to be with their peers/friends/community like an 8th grade trans girl would. However if there's like a 15 year old 8th grader who wants to play with their 8th grade friends, I say let them play!

Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.

Primarily an increased risk of suicide by the trans girl.

Is there a study that backs up that claim? Honestly asking

I don't think there's a study that explicitly breaks it down to youth sports participation. We've established these cases are pretty rare which would make it difficult.

However, there is data out there on impacts of suicide rates on trans youth:

Transgender and nonbinary youth attempt suicide less when their pronouns are respected, when they are allowed to officially change the gender marker on their legal documents, and when they have access to spaces (online, at school, and home) that affirm their gender identity.

Transgender and nonbinary youth who reported having pronouns respected by all or most people in their lives attempted suicide at half the rate of those who did not have their pronouns respected.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

while the above don't explicitly mention sports, forcing the student to either participate in a group where their gender isn't affirmed seems to go above and beyond disrespecting preferred pronouns.

[Cartierfor3]

It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?

Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.

Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.

Age/grade is a pretty easy differentiator because no matter how much HRT you have or how many operations you have, it doesn't change what makes you that <age> or <grade>.

Regarding the second part, it kind of sounds like you are imagining this kid as a wolf in sheep's clothing...secretly knowing the whole time that in reality they identify as a boy but are taking advantage of the fact that they can say they're a girl and gain a competitive advantage. Try to understand that if this trans girl is identifying as a girl, it's because that's how she sincerely identifies no differently than you know at your very core that you are a male, so making her compete on the boys team is how you would feel if you were told you had to play on the girls team. I promise promise promise you, these kids would not sign up for a lifetime of ostracization/ridicule/being hated for simply existing/etc. just so they could maybe gain an advantage at high school sports. Like that isn’t a thing. At all.

That’s like saying “handicapped people get all the best parking spaces I think I’ll paralyze myself from the waist down”

you have a really interesting habit of reading a post of mine and assigning a position to it I haven't taken. Try asking questions. I never said or even hinted at any of that. 

[Cartierfor3]

It sounds like the core of your issue is you don't believe trans girls are girls. However what is the harm done by allowing Ember to play with girls, even if YOU don't believe she's a girl?

Well, at that point it ceases to be a girls team. It's a space reserved for girls. Probably not a lot of harm! But by that logic if the 8th grade team is reserved for 8th grade team, what is the harm in an 11th grader participating? I'm just more ok with boundaries being boundaries for participation I guess.

The 11th grader probably wouldn't cause much harm either, but they wouldn't be doing it to be with their peers/friends/community like an 8th grade trans girl would. However if there's like a 15 year old 8th grader who wants to play with their 8th grade friends, I say let them play!

Ember isn't a great example since the sport is softball, I guess I would ask you the same question. What's the harm in asking a transgirl to participate on the boys team, even if YOU don't believe she's a boy? Imagine Ember or some kid is playing basketball/cross country/track/swimming etc.

Primarily an increased risk of suicide by the trans girl.

Is there a study that backs up that claim? Honestly asking

I don't think there's a study that explicitly breaks it down to youth sports participation. We've established these cases are pretty rare which would make it difficult.

However, there is data out there on impacts of suicide rates on trans youth:

Transgender and nonbinary youth attempt suicide less when their pronouns are respected, when they are allowed to officially change the gender marker on their legal documents, and when they have access to spaces (online, at school, and home) that affirm their gender identity.

Transgender and nonbinary youth who reported having pronouns respected by all or most people in their lives attempted suicide at half the rate of those who did not have their pronouns respected.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/facts-about-lgbtq-youth-suicide/

while the above don't explicitly mention sports, forcing the student to either participate in a group where their gender isn't affirmed seems to go above and beyond disrespecting preferred pronouns.

I'll read it.

[Cartierfor3]

Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".

I'm of the belief there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl, I'm guessing most would agree with that! But when the message to kids who are confused or struggling "you were born in the wrong body" or "everyone around you must affirm your sex was mis-assigned at birth, or you're in danger of self-harm" I think that's not very helpful to kids! Probably a lot bigger issue than Ember's role as backup catcher on the softball team.

Anyway, thanks for the discourse MC. Always open to discuss further if you'd like.

[Spracne]

Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.

[yoga-like_abana]

Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.

They are kids.... a lot of kids change their minds. Are you saying they should have to wait to undergo certain things?

[michigancat]

Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".

there is plenty of evidence that gender-affirming care improves mental health for children who identify as transgender. Also worth noting that gender-affirming care does not ultimately mean surgery or even hormones - I don't know or care what Ember did for her transition and I don't think it matters beyond what works best for her

The study — led by senior authors Drs. Kym Ahrens and David Inwards-Breland at Seattle Children's Gender Clinic — found that having access to hormones and puberty blockers for youth ages 13 to 20 was associated with a 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and a 73% lower odds of self-harm or suicidal thoughts compared to youth who did not receive these medications over a 12-month period. This adds short-term insight into what was already known about the long-term benefits of gender-affirming care.

https://sph.washington.edu/news-events/sph-blog/benefits-gender-affirming-care

I'm of the belief there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl, I'm guessing most would agree with that!

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're saying Ember is being a girl the wrong way.

But when the message to kids who are confused or struggling "you were born in the wrong body" or "everyone around you must affirm your sex was mis-assigned at birth, or you're in danger of self-harm" I think that's not very helpful to kids! Probably a lot bigger issue than Ember's role as backup catcher on the softball team.

I don't know everyone's journey with mental health and gender-affirming care, but what you are describing sounds like medical malpractice to me and rarely happens if ever. You have a tendency in this thread to exaggerate, so that may just be an exaggerated/oversimplified interpretation of what you think gender-affirming care is and not what you literally think is told to trans kids. You may have noticed that Ember did not use the type of language you are using to describe her coming out as trans.

Anyway, this is a very informative thread about one parent's experience raising a trans child:

https://twitter.com/JesseThorn/status/1377287133921116160

[michigancat]

Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.

In the video we've been discussing, Ember explicitly said she came out as trans to a friend before telling any adult! And it took two years before she told her parents.

[Spracne]

Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.

They are kids.... a lot of kids change their minds. Are you saying they should have to wait to undergo certain things?

I've avoided wading into this thread much in the last year or so, but I do follow along with the conversation. People like to throw things around flippantly like dax regarding genital mutilation. I'd like to see the statistics on just how often gender-reassignment surgery happens in minors. I presume it's vanishingly small, even in proportion to the already vanishingly small number of transgender kids participating in youth sports.

As for hormone therapy, I will note that on the one hand, anti-trans folks are saying, e.g., testosterone levels give trans girls an unfair advantage, yet on the other hand, we shouldn't let trans kids do hormone therapy. You put those two hands together, and the result is trans kids simply shouldn't be allowed to play youth sports. That seems unfair to me.

Now, the reality: with rare exceptions like abortions in some instances (i.e., with a court order that parental notification/consent would likely lead to abuse, in a jurisdiction that even allows such an exception), healthcare decisions for minors require not just the perceived need of the minor, but also the consent of a guardian (minors can't enter into contracts) and the medical judgment of a professional. So in the case of hormone therapy, if a minor talks to their parent/guardian about it, and they then discuss it with their family physician, and all parties agree that it is appropriate in whatever kind and degree, then that's just how healthcare is supposed to function for minors. I do not see that I have any right to insert myself into the equation, for moral, ethical, and privacy reasons.

[Cartierfor3]

Why do you assume these folks have no agency of their own? You seem to be going straight to the assumption that these views are being imposed on them by adults, rather than self-realized.

In the video we've been discussing, Ember explicitly said she came out as trans to a friend before telling any adult! And it took two years before she told her parents.

Sure. I'm more referring to a societal trend.

Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".

there is plenty of evidence that gender-affirming care improves mental health for children who identify as transgender. Also worth noting that gender-affirming care does not ultimately mean surgery or even hormones - I don't know or care what Ember did for her transition and I don't think it matters beyond what works best for her

The study %u2014 led by senior authors Drs. Kym Ahrens and David Inwards-Breland at Seattle Children's Gender Clinic %u2014 found that having access to hormones and puberty blockers for youth ages 13 to 20 was associated with a 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and a 73% lower odds of self-harm or suicidal thoughts compared to youth who did not receive these medications over a 12-month period. This adds short-term insight into what was already known about the long-term benefits of gender-affirming care.

https://sph.washington.edu/news-events/sph-blog/benefits-gender-affirming-care

and yet the United States along with Canada is becoming an outlier with the care recommendations for kids with gender dysphoria. Denmark, Finland, England, Sweden are no longer using the care standards that the United States has adopted, with pediatric medicine in the field of gender.

The key problem in pediatric gender medicine is not the lack of research rigor in the past%u2014it is the field%u2019s present-day denial of the profound problems in the existing research, and an unwillingness to engage in high quality research requisite in evidence-based medicine.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346

Ember's story is interesting, yet there are a lot of stories of transition regret. I'm curious how you make sense of that phenomenon? I don't know of another treatment for mental health that you find people several years later posting stories of regret in this way.

this just one I found on youtube, there are a lot!

[Cartierfor3]

I'm of the belief there's no right or wrong way to be a boy or a girl, I'm guessing most would agree with that!

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're saying Ember is being a girl the wrong way.

I'm talking about kids that don't conform to stereotypes about their sex.

[michigancat]

Last thing I'll say for today, a lot of questions are thrown at me with some version of "what's the harm...?". Well, fundamentally I do think it's harmful to tell kids "oh, you were born in the wrong body." It sounded like that's the message Ember was getting, and that kid is on a regiment of hormone therapy with a lot of side effects. What's the harm in telling Ember "you were born just right in the right body, you can be a boy any way you like!"? I see a lot of harm in telling Ember "with a few more surgeries and hormone treatments, you can change your body on the outside enough to match your gendered-soul".

there is plenty of evidence that gender-affirming care improves mental health for children who identify as transgender. Also worth noting that gender-affirming care does not ultimately mean surgery or even hormones - I don't know or care what Ember did for her transition and I don't think it matters beyond what works best for her

The study %u2014 led by senior authors Drs. Kym Ahrens and David Inwards-Breland at Seattle Children's Gender Clinic %u2014 found that having access to hormones and puberty blockers for youth ages 13 to 20 was associated with a 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and a 73% lower odds of self-harm or suicidal thoughts compared to youth who did not receive these medications over a 12-month period. This adds short-term insight into what was already known about the long-term benefits of gender-affirming care.

https://sph.washington.edu/news-events/sph-blog/benefits-gender-affirming-care

and yet the United States along with Canada is becoming an outlier with the care recommendations for kids with gender dysphoria. Denmark, Finland, England, Sweden are no longer using the care standards that the United States has adopted, with pediatric medicine in the field of gender.

I'm OK with standards evolving. It's worth noting that Sweden still offers hormone treatments to some and still recommends social transition to even more. I didn't look into the details of the other countries. I defer to medical experts to provide the gender-affirming care they think is best and families to make the best decisions they can. I'll also assume that if a kid and their parents are telling me they are a girl, they, along with their care team, have decided that is what is best for them and will do what I can to treat them as a girl and with compassion.

In other words, even assuming we went to Sweden's standard of care, I still think kids should be able to compete in the gender they identify with.

Ember's story is interesting, yet there are a lot of stories of transition regret. I'm curious how you make sense of that phenomenon? I don't know of another treatment for mental health that you find people several years later posting stories of regret in this way.

this just one I found on youtube, there are a lot!

It's worth considering, but there is going to be regret for any medical treatment. According to the AP about 1% of those receiving gender affirming surgery experienced regret: https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b

People should be very careful with gender-affirming surgery! And I believe they are. Every gender-affirming care case is different - not everyone gets surgery (or should get the surgery). I also don't think this makes the trans-sports bans less cruel.

Meanwhile, 20% of Prozac users report a negative experience: https://www.drugs.com/comments/fluoxetine/prozac.html

not mental health, but 11% of prostate cancer patients regret receiving radiology: https://ascopost.com/issues/january-25-2022/disconnect-between-expectations-and-outcomes-major-factor-in-treatment-related-regret-among-patients-with-localized-prostate-cancer/

[MakeItRain]

I'll address this because I've made the point several times

As far as the talking point of the true inequity is in facilities/funds for girls vs. boys sports, that to me feels like whataboutism.

If you want to label it whataboutism feel free to do so but it doesn't change the point that conservative politicians and the people who support them have made a conscious effort to use the phrase "protect women's sports" when the clear threat to women's sports isn't the handful of trans girls playing varsity or sub-varsity nationwide. The protect women's sports movement is an absolute lie and has nothing to do with protecting women's sports, it's completely and totally about demonizing trans girls and women.

[Institutional Control]

High school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[yoga-like_abana]

Administrators at that school acting like a bunch of drama queens.

[michigancat]

High school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

jesus I've seen a lot of student theater and I've never seen a production with enough cis males to fill every role written for males. these people are just being evil

[_33]

Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Man, 'evil' has lost all meaning in political discourse. Much like 'nazi'.

if 'evil' isn't the correct word then what do you think would be more fitting? Or were you just making a general observation?

[Rage Against the McKee]

I'd say "Nazi" has gained a whole lot of meaning in political discourse, honestly. You never actually saw people flying Nazi flags in public when I was a kid. Feels a lot less hyperbolic knowing that these types are around and politically active.

[Spracne]

High school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

These jackanapes would have cancelled William Shakespeare.

[Institutional Control]

High school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

These jackanapes would have cancelled William Shakespeare.

Of course they would have because all his plays had men cast in the female roles.

[Spracne]

High school administrators told students one by one that the play would be postponed and recast and that students could only play roles that match their sex assigned at birth.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/11/10/texas-trans-student-musical-sherman-oklahoma/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

These jackanapes would have cancelled William Shakespeare.

Of course they would have because all his plays had men cast in the female roles.

Yeah, that was the point I was making. Men have been portraying women on stage dating back at least to Ancient Greece.

Shakespeare also made a bunch of crude sexual jokes (many of which are lost on modern readers) and even portrayed homosexuality. It bugs me that I live in a state that is less progressive than 16th Century England.

[michigancat]

Peter Pan almost always being played by a woman immediately came to mind for me:

https://slate.com/culture/2014/01/peter-pan-played-by-a-woman-why-a-history-of-casting-the-j-m-barrie-character.html

[passranch]

Monty Python for me