Author Topic: Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No  (Read 43192 times)

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Offline Justwin

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Offline Spracne

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Dlew, prepare to be shocked

Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline catastrophe

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

Offline Justwin

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.

Offline Justwin

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:facepalm:

After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.

Offline catastrophe

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?

Offline Justwin

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.

So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).

Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.

Thus this constitutes discrimination.

Offline Spracne

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:facepalm:

After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.

Why's that?

Offline Justwin

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:facepalm:

After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.

Why's that?

For the mixed race business partnership law, because the law is interfering with how one is running their business.

Offline Justwin

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:facepalm:

After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.

Why's that?

For Brown v Board, perhaps because school attendance is compulsory and forcing students to go to schools outside of their neighborhood is an undue burden.

Offline catastrophe

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.

So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).

Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.

Thus this constitutes discrimination.
I see. My quick searching didn’t really turn up any cases of that type of law actually being legislated (or declared unconstitutional) so I just thought you were generally referring to segregated towns, which I think to you does not constitute discrimination so long as whites also were not permitted to live with blacks.

Offline Justwin

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.

So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).

Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.

Thus this constitutes discrimination.
I see. My quick searching didn’t really turn up any cases of that type of law actually being legislated (or declared unconstitutional) so I just thought you were generally referring to segregated towns, which I think to you does not constitute discrimination so long as whites also were not permitted to live with blacks.

https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/exclusion_laws/#.WZMxAFGGOUk

This is one example I found with a quick search.

In your last example, I would find as the court did in Buchanan v. Warley.

Offline Trim

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renocat's trans sports thread has taken a turn.

Offline Spracne

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:facepalm:

After doing a little more reading, perhaps I should say I would invalidate the law based on the due process clause of the 14th amendment, but not the equal protection clause.

Why's that?

For the mixed race business partnership law, because the law is interfering with how one is running their business.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I just can't have an intelligent conversation with you about the 14th Amendment. But I'll give it one more shot.

Under established Constitutional precedent, ANY legal classification based upon, among other things, race and gender are subject to heightened scrutiny pursuant to the Equal Protection Clause. I already recited the test for "intermediate scrutiny" that applies to classifications based on sex. Classifications based on race go to the core of the very reason the 14th Amendment exists. As such, they are subject to "strict scrutiny," which has been called "strict in theory, but fatal in fact." That is because any legal classification based upon race is considered immediately suspect.

In order to survive strict scrutiny, the applicable government must prove that the "discriminatory" law (again, remember "to discriminate" has multiple meanings) is (1) narrowly tailored (2) to serve a compelling government interest. Courts typically start with the second "compelling interest" prong, and usually never even have to reach the narrow tailoring prong. That is because, under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, the law abhors classifications on the basis of race. Only in the rarest of cases (e.g., limited affirmative action based upon a holistic review of applicants) has a compelling government interest ever been found. By the way, this is the body of law that the Court relied upon to overturn Plessy v. Ferguson in deciding Brown v. BoE (and the follow-on Brown cases).

It is emphatically the purpose of the Equal Protection Clause to sort out laws that classify based on a suspect classification. Those include race, religion, national origin, alienage status, sex/gender, illegitimacy (i.e., born out of wedlock), and disability. There are more, but those are the main ones. Technically, all legal classifications can be reviewed through the lens of the EPC, but if it's not a suspect classification, it gets "rational basis review," which nearly always results in a court rubber stamping the law/policy.

So, a law banning mix-raced business partnerships (or miscegenation laws, as in Loving v. Virginia) would 100% be tested pursuant to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. No educated person would argue otherwise.

Offline catastrophe

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So fair to say you think Brown v. Board of Education was incorrectly decided?

Not sure I actually need the clarification but if that’s your position I think we’ve established we’re too far apart to have a real debate here. We can set aside whether you think folks like Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey would have even a fraction of their current business power if they had been prevented from going into business with white people.

I don't know that I would say the outcome of Brown v Board was incorrectly decided. I don't know that I would agree with the reasoning in the decision and would perhaps be in line with Thomas Sowell's arguments. I'd have to do a lot more reading into it, though, before stating a certain opinion.

I also wouldn't support a law that restricted who people can go into business with. However, I don't think the courts should strike it down on 14th amendment grounds. If they are going to strike it down, I think it should be on 1st amendment grounds.

Yeah I don't think we're on the same plane of existence here so I'll just leave it be. Although I am curious, and it's a serious question if you know: has anything in U.S. history been considered unlawfully discriminatory based on your definition of discrimination?

From what I understand, I would say a lot of the sundown town/county laws were unlawfully discriminatory.
What if I told you Sundown Towns weren’t all white towns but rather non-mixed race towns with white founders?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. My understanding of Sundown Town laws were that they had a specific time when black people could not be out after and that these laws did not apply to white people. I believe this is also similar to other Jim Crow laws.

So, what is the activity being regulated by the law? In this case, it is being out after a specified time (e.g. 6:00 p.m.).

Can black people be out after 6:00 p.m.? No.
Can white people be out after 6:00 p.m.? Yes.

Thus this constitutes discrimination.
I see. My quick searching didn’t really turn up any cases of that type of law actually being legislated (or declared unconstitutional) so I just thought you were generally referring to segregated towns, which I think to you does not constitute discrimination so long as whites also were not permitted to live with blacks.

https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/exclusion_laws/#.WZMxAFGGOUk

This is one example I found with a quick search.

In your last example, I would find as the court did in Buchanan v. Warley.

I still don't see that those Oregon laws were generally challenged based on the summary, but your second point is definitely consistent with the Plessy v. Ferguson (pre Brown v. BOE) era discrimination jurisprudence, so that makes sense!

Offline Trim

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THIS is the very feminine woman who's fired up about transgender women competing in women's sports?


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Offline I_have_purplewood

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Fifteen minutes later, when the Kansas locker room opened its doors to the media, the Jayhawks were still crying. Literally, bawling. All of them. I've never seen anything like it, and I've seen devastated college locker rooms -- after losses in the Final Four, the national championship game -- ever

Offline sonofdaxjones

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cis-gendered male #blueanon teamed up with the trans movement to shove cis-gendered females aside sure is something

But after all, this is:  The Life and Times  of #blueanon


Offline catastrophe

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Seems like a win for the Chicago Cyclocross Cup now that they’ve managed to get free advertising to millions of MAGAs who had no idea it existed before.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Yeah, that's it, spot on  :jerk: :jerk: :jerk:

Offline catastrophe

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Well they completely determine how to run their competition and don’t seem at all apologetic about a trans person winning. Why do you think that is?

Online michigancat

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Who was silenced?


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Any cis-gendered female who speaks out on this. As I have documented on this blog many times.