Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[MakeItRain]

Saying you don’t think it’s fair that a former D1 Male swimmer is now competing against women after transition makes you a bigot, dumbasses! Wake up and grow up!!!

Who the eff said that, I didn't.

[MakeItRain]

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?

Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.

[420seriouscat69]

You just kept going on after making “wacky” an example as it’s “not that fair group” and followed up that comment about bigotry in the next post. It’s whatever tho. I don’t think you think I’m IRL POS, we just differ on the subject. I’ve also made some very rude comebacks to make my case, so it’s whatever. I swear I mean well, it’s just the competitive nature of obsessed sports Wackycat lashing out. Sorry.

[MakeItRain]

You just kept going on after making “wacky” an example as it’s “not that fair group” and followed up that comment about bigotry in the next post. It’s whatever tho. I don’t think you think I’m IRL POS, we just differ on the subject. I’ve also made some very rude comebacks to make my case, so it’s whatever. I swear I mean well, it’s just the competitive nature of obsessed sports Wackycat lashing out. Sorry.

Wacky, you are in the "it's not fair" group, it's the cornerstone of your and others argument, that doesn't make you a bigot, just misguided. You definitely were behaving like a bigot when you first posted about this back early in the winter, when you intentionally misgendered Lia, but you've stopped doing that.

[420seriouscat69]

💯 agree and sorry for showing my red ass.

[catastrophe]

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?

Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.

I actually just listened today to an episode of Science vs. discussing transgender myths. Apparently the science indicates that if you go through puberty as a male, you retain a somewhat permanent advantage in muscle development. Not that the advantage is that massive. I guess there was recently a transgender olympic weightlifter who failed to medal vs cis females.

Just as interestingly, the episode talked about how advantages in endurance sports mostly disappear because hemoglobin levels are pretty hormone dependent. They used the example of a distance runner who as a male was about in the top 80% (I think) of male runners, and then after transitioning ended up right around the top 80% of female runners.

[MakeItRain]

 

[420seriouscat69]

[MakeItRain]

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?

Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.

I actually just listened today to an episode of Science vs. discussing transgender myths. Apparently the science indicates that if you go through puberty as a male, you retain a somewhat permanent advantage in muscle development. Not that the advantage is that massive. I guess there was recently a transgender olympic weightlifter who failed to medal.

Just as interestingly, the episode talked about how advantages in endurance sports mostly disappear because hemoglobin levels are pretty hormone dependent. They used the example of a distance runner who as a male was about in the top 80% (I think) of male runners, and then after transitioning ended up right around the top 80% of female runners.

Not only did she not medal but she didn't even get the first qualifying weight up and finished dead ass last. Makes you wonder how in the hell she qualified for the Olympics.

The second thingi alluded to is why I'm certain that Lia won't qualify for the Olympic team. Her times have gotten progressively worse since she started estrogen and there's no reason to believe she's going to stem the tide especially considering she's not going to have the luxury of free coaching and a college strength and conditioning program.

[catastrophe]

Yeah I’d have to think that blood oxygen is hugely important for swimming.

[nicname]

Does affirming and validating trans-curious people help sufferers of gender dysphoria?

 

['taterblast]

tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).

people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).

[Rage Against the McKee]

I'm certainly no expert, but my understanding is that Lia is taller and stronger than she would have been had she transitioned prior to puberty. It's an advantage that nobody she is competing against has the benefit of having. Is that not correct?

Are we sure about that? I'm asking earnestly. I'm not sure that estrogen is the antithesis of HGH.

I'm not sure. That's just how it's been explained to me. I don't think there is a ton of data out there on the effects of transitioning on physical performance. It would be interesting to see if Lia's times regress back to where she would be about the same level of competitiveness with women as she was with men, but I kind of doubt she is still swimming that long. The fact that her times are still getting slower would indicate, to me at least, that she is still advantaged from having used to be a man.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).

people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).

Right, and the counter is that we've been getting it wrong this whole time. which has contributed to the high rate of suicide rate in trans people. That 40-50% of trans people attempt suicide is orders of magnitude more important to me than consideration of physical parity in sporting competitions.

True parity in sports never existed anyway. Phenotypical differences have always been present. Tall people have advantages in basketball but we don't need to ban them. allowing trans people to compete with others of their gender is just expanding the phenotypical diversity to better match our understanding of humanity.

if phenotypical parity is of utmost importance, we should be consistent with that stance: there should be separate basketball competitions at all age groups for every possible combination of height and other important physical attribute (wingspan, ability to palm a basketball). I'll be so proud when my friend goes pro in the version of the NBA for 5'11" males with T-Rex arms who can't palm a basketball or dunk.

Also, phenotype isn't the only source of unfairness. Rich kids have advantages over poor kids in all sports but especially in sports like tennis, motor racing, hockey, and equestrian. What we know from epigenetics is that socioeconomic issues impact phenotype, so economic disparities are physical disparities. Are the people outraged about trans athletes also outraged over economic disparities(which in the US are also racial disparities) and are they working to ensure a level playing field in all sports by addressing those issues? If all kids had equal access to food, housing, healthcare, and education we would have more fair athletic competitions, right?

why does fairness only suddenly matter when it comes to banning trans kids? And why is the perceived physical unfairness of an amateur swim race more important than the unfairness of a society that leads half of trans people to attempt suicide? This is also coming on the heels of banning trans people from bathrooms

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['taterblast]

(this should go without saying, but on the topic of suicide rates: it is horrible how trans people have been treated to lead to such a suicide rate like that. if allowing trans women to compete in womens leagues will improve that, then that is a greater good i hope we can all get behind.)

doesn't your logic of "advantages exist all over the place" lead us down a path of getting rid of separating mens and womens leagues altogether?

there has to be something that defines who gets to compete in mens leagues and who gets to compete in womens leagues. i still think it gets down to the fact that we separate men and women and the general understanding has always been that it's about biological sex at birth. maybe it hasn't been explicitly stated in rule books (maybe it has?), but you're asking everyone to change that understanding. which just isn't going to work for a lot of people, and it's something i still struggle with understanding. people should be able to live their truth without judgment or hate from anyone! but on the topic of sports competitions, gender identity is different than biological sex at birth.

['taterblast]

also i'm sorry i kind of ignored you saying "kids" in your post. it feels like a different conversation for kids leagues but i don't have time to type out my thoughts on that. i'm over my skis for a pit thread already.

[catastrophe]

also i'm sorry i kind of ignored you saying "kids" in your post. it feels like a different conversation for kids leagues but i don't have time to type out my thoughts on that. i'm over my skis for a pit thread already.

The same podcast I referenced earlier also pointed out that you don’t really see any clear physical advantage between males and females until like 12 years old or something. Could be younger than that, but I think then it just comes down to whether a particular kid hits puberty early or not. The politics around kids sports is pure bigotry.

At the same time, I think young trans kids aren’t even interested in being the best among men, women, or overall. They want to participate with who they see as their peers. I think the same is true for adults to at least some extent.

[catastrophe]

there has to be something that defines who gets to compete in mens leagues and who gets to compete in womens leagues. i still think it gets down to the fact that we separate men and women and the general understanding has always been that it's about biological sex at birth.

Although a nice simple system, the problem with this thinking is no one has advocated for biological females to continue competing with females after transitioning. It’s like the bathroom bill thing all over again. You’re seriously telling me you’re MORE comfortable sharing the women’s bathroom with a person who presents entirely as a man? (Rhetorical point not directed at you.)

[Trim]

Here are the elements of the argument for why the effort to ban trans athletes is anti-trans or trans-phobic as I understand things as a straight cis white man:

• Sex and Gender are distinct concepts.  Sex is assigned at birth based on genitalia. Gender is a societal construct of expected physical, psychological, and emotional traits.
• Gender identity is just that, the gender construct that a person identifies with.
• A transgender person is someone who's sex at birth doesn't match with their expression of gender or gender identity
  
• Denial of gender identity(and other 'identities' like race)

tl;dr - Advocating for banning trans athletes means harming trans people by rejecting their gender identity(i.e. their womanhood in the case of mtf).

people against trans people competing will argue it's really about biological sex, not gender, it's just that we've never had to differentiate that throughout history (right or wrong).

i still think it gets down to the fact that we separate men and women and the general understanding has always been that it's about biological sex at birth. maybe it hasn't been explicitly stated in rule books (maybe it has?), but you're asking everyone to change that understanding. which just isn't going to work for a lot of people, and it's something i still struggle with understanding.

Yes, sports concerns aside, I'm still looking for something to read dumbed down enough for me to understand the now-distinct concept of gender and why it's not that people of either birth-biological-sex can have wide ranges of physical/psychological/emotional traits regardless of if they're biological males or females.

Everything I've read is just "sex is this, while gender is this" and leaves it at that.

Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?

[FuzzyWuzzy]

doesn't your logic of "advantages exist all over the place" lead us down a path of getting rid of separating mens and womens leagues altogether?

Possibly, though I don't think so. I need to think about that more. 

Violence against women is very common and might be made worse by un-gendering sports, but that would pretty much be my only concern.

Women already don't make anywhere near as much money from sports as men...WNBA is like the only league that pays an upper middle class salary and women athletes could still earn from endorsements. so I don't think un-gendering would make a huge difference economically for women.

I think the two possible paths my thinking can go down are:

- un-gender sports
- keep sports gendered but allow trans people to compete with others of their gender

The second option is my preference because of the violence against women thing



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[DQ12]

sorry what's violence against women have anything to do with anything?

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Is entirely switching genders just a creation/result of society being rigid about what men and women should look/act/emote like?

We live in a society.

How I came to accept that trans women are women and trans men are men is that I have talked with/worked with/competed against/roomed with trans people and they told me so.

I know that's not the most satisfying answer, but we treat what people tell us with earnestness in other circumstances. if someone of sound mind that I trust and respect tells me that they believe in God, I believe them even though I have no way to verify the truthfulness of their claim and am not able to understand it myself.

There's also supporting evidence, though not a direct proof, that affirms what trans people are telling us. For instance, there have been studies into what the intervenable factors are when it comes to suicide risk in transgender people. They found that there is a large reduction in suicidal ideation associated with each of the following:
- completing medical transition through hormones and/or surgery
- experiencing lower self-reported transphobia
- increased social/parental support.

In other words, listening to what they are telling us and treating trans women as women and trans men as men makes fewer trans people die by suicide. To me, this all makes for very compelling evidence that gender (a societal construct as you point out) is distinct from sex/genetalia



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[FuzzyWuzzy]

sorry what's violence against women have anything to do with anything?

With un-gendering sports, as one person suggested

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[FuzzyWuzzy]

Also, the current sex-based segregation is sports is already inadequate to ensure 'fairness'.  Take the case of Castor Semenya, who is an intersex woman(she was born with a vagina and internal testes) and is banned from competing in the Olympics in distances from 400m to 1500m. 

Do people care about the lack of fairness for her? She was born with a vagina but had her hopes and dreams stolen from her and is banned from competing against other women.  How can we make competition fair for Castor?  Is that as important to you all as making competition 'fair' for Lia's competitors?

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['taterblast]

i'm not here to say Castor was treated fairly. but are there other examples of person born as female being banned from female competition? if that is the only example then i'm not sure the entire history of defining womens sports can be called inadequate.