Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[MakeItRain]

I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.

It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.

The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.

I betcha there are quite a few who are scared their daughter will not land a softball scholarship to a local juco, etc.  That's not an excuse for their behavior (or even reasonable), but it's an explanation for some of their behavior.

Nah, reason or logic doesn't dictate this is anywhere within the realm of possibility, everyone knows the participation rates of trans girls is incredibly low. We shouldn't provide them excuses to soft pedal bigotry.

[Pete]

I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.

It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.

The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.

I betcha there are quite a few who are scared their daughter will not land a softball scholarship to a local juco, etc.  That's not an excuse for their behavior (or even reasonable), but it's an explanation for some of their behavior.

Nah, reason or logic doesn't dictate this is anywhere within the realm of possibility, everyone knows the participation rates of trans girls is incredibly low. We shouldn't provide them excuses to soft pedal bigotry.

I agree with you, but this topic does seem like a hill those necks will die on, doesn't it?

[Spracne]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

[MakeItRain]

I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.

It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.

The save women's sports movement isn't the least bit about women's sports. How many of the people spouting that nonsense have ever verbally supported title ix? crap, most in the save women's sports movement would advocate to abolish title ix. The republican governor of Utah should have killed that talking point and movement forever, but the advocates of it don't a holy crap about women, just trans people.

you're projecting a pretty sinister hidden agenda

cf3, you should just keep "asking questions" about this issue, the estimated 600ish trans girls, most of them non varsity, participating in high school and middle school athletics nationwide. Clearly the biggest threat to the hundreds of thousands other girls. Equal funding of girls sports clearly solved.

I bet the save women's sports people are also outraged that Brittney Griner and other United States Olympians had to play our sport in Russia to make a decent living.

You're right, I'm wrong.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Just about all of the "save women's sports" people on my Facebook feed insisted on using "he/him" pronouns for Brittney Griner when she was arrested in Russia.

[Cartierfor3]

why are putting "asking questions" in quotations?

[OK_Cat]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

[Cartierfor3]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

[MakeItRain]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

[MakeItRain]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

[michigancat]

I'm confused on how "save women's sports" leads to eradication.

It's a step towards saying they should not exist as they are in society. It leads to letting them use the bathroom of their gender. It leads to denying trans kids health care, trans adults health care, etc. Who knows where it goes if these monsters keep moving the direction they're in.

But what if it's just saying they shouldn't compete against biological women in sports?

that's a cute scenario except after the bills banning trans girls in sports passed, the bills banning trans health care started. And now you have people saying they just shouldn't exist at the leading republican conference.

Are you talking about regulations on 'gender-affirming care' for minors? Seems misleading to call that 'banning trans health care'.

no I'm referring to things like Oklahoma HB 2177 that bans gender affirming care for anyone under 26 (not just minors) and prohibits insurance coverage for gender transition services performed within Oklahoma on any minor or adult.

https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-house-passes-hb-2177-gender-transition-services-minors-ban/43123692

[Cartierfor3]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

being pro-democracy would be a big one

[Cartierfor3]

don't really want to derail the thread but if you read David French in the NYT or elsewhere, he generally lines up with my political beliefs.

Think Kasich or McCain vs the maga crowd

[OK_Cat]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

whatever helps you sleep at night 

[Cartierfor3]

ok man. i'm not fanning or dax, and i'm not in here getting personal with folks. good grief.

[DQ12]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what can you do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play approach.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

[MakeItRain]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

being pro-democracy would be a big one

That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling

[MakeItRain]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

[DQ12]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

I mean, yeah.  It's all anecdotal.  I agree with you that the instances are rare. 

[Cartierfor3]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

being pro-democracy would be a big one

That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling

dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info

[MakeItRain]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.

[_33]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.

I'm guessing a lot of people are fine with all that but would draw the line at Girls get beaten by other girls because they are biologically male. Seems like a sensible place to draw the line.

[MakeItRain]

seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

being pro-democracy would be a big one

That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling

dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info

Thanks for the answers. You don't know about the supreme court eliminating the voting rights act and conservatives roundly supporting it?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1026457264/1965-voting-rights-act-supreme-court-john-lewis

[DQ12]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.

Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further.  Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for.  But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.

FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem.  Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap.  It's just not worth it.  That's where I wound up.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.

To be fair, there aren't enough trans athletes competing to have any actual data. It's impossible to know if that trans swimmer was winning because she's really good or if it's because the hormone standards weren't set where they should be.