Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[420seriouscat69]

Spracs could be anywhere on earth after that KU win, but here he is, defending everyone’s honor on how a former D1 male athlete should be allowed to crush women in swimming 2 years after transition! Go hawks!

[420seriouscat69]

at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have.  on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect.  on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.

yes, same

I'm not going to speak for anyone other than myself but the nuance of this situation is very important and my issue is that the two posters I'm arguing with in this thread and pretty much everyone discussing it on social media, of course, don't want to have a nuanced conversation about this issue.

I don't think anyone is ignorant to the physiological differences between men and women, especially those in their early to mid 20s, this age group may have the most striking differences. However, in the very specific case of Lia Thomas we have no idea what her physiological differences are and how they are manifested in swimming. Sure, it feels like something is unfair, but I want to know what is unfair. All of the things we know, other than she was born a male, either indicates she doesn't have an advantage or that advantage is undefined.

We know there are other successful women swimmers with the same body type as Lia. So if her body is something that other women can and do have, how is that some unfair, unachievable advantage?

We have no idea what her hormone levels are, how long she's been on estrogen, whether or not she's continuing to take estrogen during the season, and what effect hormone levels have on swimming and swimmers in general. Her times in the 500 are about 15-18 seconds slower competing as a woman than she did as a man, so it stands to reason that the estrogen has had some effect..

If the difference is purely physiological, I'm going to need to know why that difference only manifests itself in one distance for Thomas.

Why aren't we discussing things like lung capacity or natural levels of oxygen in the blood? We know that Thomas' supposed advantage isn't speed, she's worse at the shorter distances.

I think there is a conversation to be had here discussing these things and more. I'd love to have a discussion about trans men and women in distance running. Elite men and women distance runners have similar body types so why are the times so disparate?

Anyway, these discussions aren't going to happen here because wacky is just interested in trolling and discussing posters. IPA has nothing other than it's not fair and making some weird point by calling Lia a man, and dax is dax.

I think it was Chi Cat who said it but this thread clearly isn't about trans athletes, it's about trans people.

I appreciate this well played out response, but it’s just non sense. It’s a long written version of “they matter” which they do, but not like this. Just take the L. If you’re daughters were competitive and competing vs this, you’d hate it!

[MakeItRain]

I honestly love that you speak for the whole trans community now, that you had 1 kid in your camp that went through it. It’s honestly the same as a white guy saying he’s not racist because he has a black friend.

What in the world are you talking about, guy, and what does it have to do with anything? You have said that you don't care that much then you have the periodic post sounding like a crazy person.

I’m legit calling you out for the same crap you call everyone else out on. Fake crap. If your daughter trained her whole life to win a natty and lost to a trans person 2 years in transition, you wouldn’t be singing this toon.

Tune.

Thank you wacky, for speaking for me and knowing me well enough to know exactly how I feel. If you knew me as well as you seem to you'd know I value what kind of humans my kids are and how they make other humans feel over some "natty."

Anyway, now that we're done discussing me, until you bring me up again, let's hear from the mother of one of the swimmers Lia competed against at the national championships

Ahead of the race, Taylor Ruck’s mother, Sophia Ruck, expressed support for Thomas, and said that she sees her competing as a “positive way for [Taylor] to be the best that she can be.”

She said she holds respect for Thomas and all the swimmers competing here this week, and has tried to empathize with Thomas’ personal and athletic journey, and the opposition she’s faced along the way.

“I have a son – Taylor has a brother – and if he were going through the same thing, I would hope that people could be supportive and cheer and love,” said Ruck, who’s originally from Canada but now lives in Phoenix.

She said that at some point, the NCAA does need to provide clearer guidance on eligibility, but that this week, what matters is treating Thomas with respect.

“In my heart, the biggest thing is empathy and love, and so at the end of the day, that’s all we have is our legacy and how we treated people. And what do people remember you for? It’s that – it’s not the accolades and awards. So, whatever that takes as a swimming community to create that environment, I think we need to explore it and with respect for all swimmers.”

[420seriouscat69]

What else do you expect her to say in this day of age? She could be canceled tomorrow for looking the wrong way.

[catastrophe]

What else do you expect her to say in this day of age? She could be canceled tomorrow for looking the wrong way.

This is your response to someone saying it’s important to treat all people with respect and love?

You think the libs are just out here CANCELLING everyone who doesn’t follow the teachings of Christ?

[420seriouscat69]

Yes. 💯. This is just another crutch for you.

[420seriouscat69]

What else do you expect her to say in this day of age? She could be canceled tomorrow for looking the wrong way.

This is your response to someone saying it’s important to treat all people with respect and love?

You think the libs are just out here CANCELLING everyone who doesn’t follow the teachings of Christ?

They’re trying to cancel science after they rooted for it for 3 years. rough ridin' yes I do!

[Katpappy]

Gees, reading about all the hate you have for transgenders it makes me wonder what your favorite mommy/gay uncle thinks of your responses.

[420seriouscat69]

He bolted a few years ago for Chareslton, SC because he was abusive towards my father and gave me crap when I walked in on him making out with a dude when I was 12 years old. We never spoke of it until he got wasted a month before my kid was born and he brought it up again, just to be a dick about it. Don’t use the term mommy, dude. It’s derogatory and makes you look like an ass hat. Male athletes should never be in female sports tho and he’d agree with that. He got pick pocketed by a female at the gulf war & if he would have outed her, she would have told the soldiers he was gay. eff off!

[Rage Against the McKee]

If your point is that women on average swim slower than men in competitions then I agree. What I’m still struggling with is why that is proof of anything in this conversation. Pluck the female born swimmer who was runner up to Lia in an event or the swimmer who Lia was runner up to and I’m guessing if thrust into male swim meets they would also be middling male swim competitors.

They would be somewhere around last place.

[Katpappy]

He bolted a few years ago for Chareslton, SC because he was abusive towards my father and gave me crap when I walked in on him making out with a dude when I was 12 years old. We never spoke of it until he got wasted a month before my kid was born and he brought it up again, just to be a dick about it. Don’t use the term mommy, dude. It’s derogatory and makes you look like an ass hat. Male athletes should never be in female sports tho and he’d agree with that. He got pick pocketed by a female at the gulf war & if he would have outed her, she would have told the soldiers he was gay. eff off!

Hurts, doesn't it.

[michigancat]

at the risk of getting into a debate i neither want to, nor am able to, participate in, this is such a stupid/fruitless argument to have.  on the one hand, the whole thing is entirely peripheral to treating 99.99% of trans individuals with empathy and respect.  on the other hand, the (extreme) liberal position essentially demands the willing suspension of disbelief in differences btwn males and females.

What is the "(extreme) liberal position" in your mind?

[420seriouscat69]

He literally wrote it out. Ignoring science to back your position.

[MakeItRain]

He bolted a few years ago for Chareslton, SC because he was abusive towards my father and gave me crap when I walked in on him making out with a dude when I was 12 years old. We never spoke of it until he got wasted a month before my kid was born and he brought it up again, just to be a dick about it. Don’t use the term mommy, dude. It’s derogatory and makes you look like an ass hat. Male athletes should never be in female sports tho and he’d agree with that. He got pick pocketed by a female at the gulf war & if he would have outed her, she would have told the soldiers he was gay. eff off!

Hurts, doesn't it.

Yeah, telling someone not to use the word mommy while intentionally misgendering someone else to try to make the point is a special kind of something.

[420seriouscat69]

 

[yoga-like_abana]

5th in the 200
8th in the 100

Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.

Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense


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[420seriouscat69]

MIR, you use the term cracker without blinking an eye, all of the time. Of course you’re siding with drunk Saturday night katpappy. Lia is some sword you want to fall on for some reason and you keep trying to make it relevant to my gay uncle for some reason. That’s why I know you’re running out of talking points on this. It’s whatever, congrats Lia and eff women’s sports.

[michigancat]

5th in the 200
8th in the 100

Weird that the supposed biological advantage over all the other swimmers was only applicable in one very specific distance, not a single distance shorter or longer, weird.

Mens hearts and lungs are bigger than a females so lia winning the distance one would make sense


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She didn't qualify in the longest race because she wasn't fast enough

Thomas drew national attention mid-season at the Zippy Invite when she swam 15:59.71 in the 1650 free, winning the race by more than 37 seconds. While she was well ahead of that field, nationally her time didn’t rank as well – she is just 11th in the country this season, 17 seconds behind Tennessee’s Kristen Stege, who is the top-ranked miler in the NCAA.

https://swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-opts-for-100-free-over-1650-free-for-ncaa-championships/

[yoga-like_abana]

Got it, so no biological differences/advantages.


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[michigancat]

Got it, so no biological differences/advantages.


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LOL

[420seriouscat69]

The science is out there if you want to do your own research, @michigancat. She's 6'6"!

['taterblast]

i'm probably just echoing thoughts already shared in this thread, but this has been in the news a lot so obviously been thinking about it.

do i think it's fair for person born as male to compete in women's sports after transition?? no. but a lot of people who share my opinion are being so disgusting about it that i don't really have a desire to discuss it publicly (i'm not referring to anyone in this thread, i haven't even read the full thing). this is not nearly a big enough issue on the grand scale of things to warrant so much attention, to me it is clearly driven by "ew trans people" and that just makes it feel wrong. if i thought people were actually going to use this for the sole purpose of a competitive advantage in sports i might change my tune, but that isn't reality.

[420seriouscat69]

i'm probably just echoing thoughts already shared in this thread, but this has been in the news a lot so obviously been thinking about it.

do i think it's fair for person born as male to compete in women's sports after transition?? no. but a lot of people who share my opinion are being so disgusting about it that i don't really have a desire to discuss it publicly (i'm not referring to anyone in this thread, i haven't even read the full thing). this is not nearly a big enough issue on the grand scale of things to warrant so much attention, to me it is clearly driven by "ew trans people" and that just makes it feel wrong. if i thought people were actually going to use this for the sole purpose of a competitive advantage in sports i might change my tune, but that isn't reality.

Most of it has been civil discussion in here and not the mention section comments you're seeing on twitter about it. It hasn't stopped people with differing opinions however to try and act like those individuals are being MAGA about it tho. Same cast and characters per usual.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

i'm probably just echoing thoughts already shared in this thread, but this has been in the news a lot so obviously been thinking about it.

do i think it's fair for person born as male to compete in women's sports after transition?? no. but a lot of people who share my opinion are being so disgusting about it that i don't really have a desire to discuss it publicly (i'm not referring to anyone in this thread, i haven't even read the full thing). this is not nearly a big enough issue on the grand scale of things to warrant so much attention, to me it is clearly driven by "ew trans people" and that just makes it feel wrong. if i thought people were actually going to use this for the sole purpose of a competitive advantage in sports i might change my tune, but that isn't reality.

yes, regardless of one's opinion on the matter...as i think MIR has pointed out pretty succinctly this is something that applies to like 1/1000 of 1% of NCAA swimmers and yet that has been more than enough for several folks on here to show their entire ass about how much they are gigantic pieces of poop, taking the opportunity to be extra cruel towards an individual who is probably already having a crap enough time as it is, but because some random girl they've never heard of didn't end up qualifying for some event then its fair game to dog pile.

As has been stated, its a nuanced issue, and one where there is plenty of room for nuanced discussion and debate to be had. I think there might be some folks on here that legitimately take umbrage with with rule, and rather than shitting all over Lia they should be debating the rule. But the fact is, there is a rule in place, and she is playing by the rule, and even though the Clay Travii of the world might want you to think "oh boy here we go! women's swimming as you know it is over, from now on its just going to be all the dudes that couldn't hack in in men's swimming are going to put on a wig and a dress..."

The rest of it is just a lot of people using a lot of words to say "i have a problem with trans people" without using those exact words and its really quite astounding. To wit: wacky has been over this whole thing for a while now yet somehow just can't help making sure everybody knows how he would like to stand up and be counted.

[420seriouscat69]

Thanks for proving my point, BAC. Just a bunch of ppl in here trying to accuse ppl of being transphobic, because they have issue of a former D1 male swimmer competing vs females now and winning natty's. You nailed it!