Author Topic: Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No  (Read 43357 times)

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Offline kim carnes

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

Good grief, you are the worst

Offline Cartierfor3

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

being pro-democracy would be a big one

That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling

dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info

Thanks for the answers. You don't know about the supreme court eliminating the voting rights act and conservatives roundly supporting it?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1026457264/1965-voting-rights-act-supreme-court-john-lewis

Kinda forgot about that TBH. Yeah I'm in favor of bringing that back.

Offline catastrophe

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
In my mind at least, the defining characteristic of a MAGA is their refusal/inability to independently evaluate a political position. They’ve predetermined that they’re going to go with whatever the tribe says and don’t give a damn whether that ends up being different than what they believed 1, 2, or 5 years ago.

Folks like CF3 and DQ are definitely conservatives but they approach issues from the perspective of actual good faith debate rather than blind parroting like the Daxes or wackys of the world.

Offline DQ12

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Folks like CF3 and DQ are definitely conservatives but they approach issues from the perspective of actual good faith debate rather than blind parroting like the Daxes or wackys of the world.
i'm not really debating the substance of this fwiw.  i am "beyond."


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Offline MakeItRain

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I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further.  Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for.  But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.

FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem.  Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap.  It's just not worth it.  That's where I wound up.

DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.

The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?

Offline MakeItRain

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

Good grief, you are the worst

Luckily cf3 is an adult, capable of answering for what he posted. You're the moron incapable of justifying what they posted, he doesn't need whatever the hell this is you're trying to do.

Offline MakeItRain

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.

being pro-democracy would be a big one

That's a pretty big one, for sure. What does pro democracy mean to you? Are you in favor of the following?
Restoration of the voting rights act
Elimination of gerrymandering
Voting rights for felons
Throwing out the Citizens United ruling

dunno what that means
100% yes- what the Republicans did in Kansas dividing WYCO is shameful
probably yes? would need to think on it but probably. Maybe like a 2 year restoration period or something
probably yes, would need more info

Thanks for the answers. You don't know about the supreme court eliminating the voting rights act and conservatives roundly supporting it?
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1026457264/1965-voting-rights-act-supreme-court-john-lewis

Kinda forgot about that TBH. Yeah I'm in favor of bringing that back.

Thank you again, appreciate the candor. Is there anything pre January 6th that you can identify as a policy difference between today's conservative and maga? I'll say, to me, the difference, aside from the true conservatives rejecting authoritarianism, really seems just seems like packaging. All of these conservative governors seem to be lock step with maga talking points when prioritizing current policy, all of which seem to be addressing fighting on the front line of social wars and not anything actually making them lives of Americans better.

Offline Pete

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
I’d say the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity would agree that there is a difference between a MAGA and a conservative.

Offline _33

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I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further.  Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for.  But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.

FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem.  Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap.  It's just not worth it.  That's where I wound up.

DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.

The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?

You're arguing that high school boys, on average, aren't bigger, stronger, and more athletic than high school girls? I'm not going to argue about this any more because I hate arguing, especially on the internet, but that seems like an insane statement to make.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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just when i think that fentynol will take over as the #1 boogieman for the MAGA, this topic keeps fighting back.

From a member of a movement who coined the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and today quite literally meltsdown at even the slightest whiff of a challenge to the #blueanon dogma.   :thumbsup:

Show us on a doll where the transgendered person touched you, Dax

Tapout accepted

Offline MakeItRain

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seems like some people or person in this thread agrees with the MAGA talking points but is afraid to admit it.

I'm a conservative, not a maga, there's a huge difference.

I'm legitimately interested in knowing what you think that difference is.
I’d say the Koch brothers and Americans for Prosperity would agree that there is a difference between a MAGA and a conservative.

Well, I'd say conservatives are very much losing the party because there is very little fiscal policy discussions that are happening in republican state houses and governor's mansions throughout the country. Both of these groups are seemingly backing politicians responsible for blurring that line. For all of their money, they don't seem all that interested in using it to take their party back. In the current Iowa legislative session, 47 bills have been proposed 6 of those 47 are fiscal conservative tent pole issues. I know the ratio is similar in places like Kentucky, Florida, Texas, South Carolina, etc as the governor's and legislators in these states are using the same lobbyists and think tanks.

Offline MakeItRain

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I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further.  Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for.  But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.

FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem.  Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap.  It's just not worth it.  That's where I wound up.

DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.

The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?

You're arguing that high school boys, on average, aren't bigger, stronger, and more athletic than high school girls? I'm not going to argue about this any more because I hate arguing, especially on the internet, but that seems like an insane statement to make.

Good. Thanks.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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CF3 i am willing to believe that you are approaching this from a good faith perspective, so i think maybe what needs to happen is a little introspection. Have you stopped to ask yourself, why do i care about this? Why am i so supportive of laws or rules that are keeping a certain group of people from being able to participate? You have piped up in this thread on several occasions about this topic of transwomen being allowed to participate in women's sports, but i've noticed you haven't expressed any sort of opinion about the laws that have already been passed, or the laws that are republican lawmakers are currently trying to pass in this country, that would essentially make it illegal (or exceedingly difficult) to be a trans person.

And this isn't me calling you a bigot, fwiw! I think a very natural part of the human condition is to fear things we don't like or don't understand. and that's okay! It takes a lot of work to break yourself from that kind of thinking. There's only like maybe one person on this entire blog who was just born naturally blessed with the absolute correct perspective on all manner of things at all times always since the history of ever, but for everyone else it takes effort to check your biases.

And hey man, i'll put myself out there as an example of how i am very much imperfect in my biases. As much as I would love for all homelessness, crime, drug addiction, etc. to be gone in this country...if i'm being honest, I don't really want any of those solutions to be in my neighborhood. And i feel bad for saying that, but like, honestly i do fall into the NIMBY crowd (and i would bet that most ppl reading this thread are probably the same way, like, inject them with truth serum and then ask if they really want a convicted pedophile moving in down the street, i bet i can tell you what the answer is).

I guess what i'm getting at - is that when it comes to legitimate reasons that any sort of legislation should be passed, there is just no logical reason whatosever that this should be a topic. The amount of people "victimized" by trans athletes being allowed to participate, the "risks" of allowing trans people to continue to participate - on literally any other subject this would not even so much as get a hearing because it has such a low stakes impact on a statistically irrelevant amount of people.

So if that's the case, then you have to ask yourself why is it so important to you? If its because you struggle with the idea of someone being trans, if you find it kind of yucky, or if quite simply put you don't understand it and you would just rather not have to see it or deal with it, you wouldn't be alone. Lots of people feel that way.

But then that's where you have to do the whole moral reckoning thing and ask yourself "is me being grossed out or uncomfortable with something a good enough reason for it to be outlawed?"

Offline Spracne

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There's only like maybe one person on this entire blog who was just born naturally blessed with the absolute correct perspective on all manner of things at all times always since the history of ever, but for everyone else it takes effort to check your biases.

 :blush:

Offline sonofdaxjones

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I think civil rights supporters should stop allowing these people to give the appearance that trans girls participating in sports is an issue worthy of the attention it's getting. 0.6% of America's population identifies as trans, of that 0.6% only 12% of trans girls/women participate in sports and not all of those are girls participating in organized sports.

We know this conversation is not one being had in good faith, and continually giving it oxygen, as if we're going to change the mind of bigots, does nothing more than continue to victimize the girls that advocate want to protect. I'm done giving these people what they want by providing distractions and continuing to victimize girls in this country.

Yes. This is exactly my take on it. It's all sleight of hand, and it seems to work on a lot of folks, including some in this thread.

You know how you can tell the movement is full of crap? There's no actual data or facts behind the movement, ever. How hard would it to show the extreme increase in injuries caused by trans girls, or varsity spots taken by trans girls, or scholarship dollars taken by trans girls? If girls sports needed saving from the influx of trans girls in sports, why isn't there the slightest bit of data showing this?

All of the arguments about trans girls taking over sports are purely anecdotal. Whether it be by a constant lobbyist, a 17 year old varsity athlete raised by the church, or a god fearing mom and or dad just asking questions. All of it is insincere, and I'm tired of them trying to play us for fools.
I don't think it's insincere in every aspect.  I think instances of trans girls beating non-trans girls at sports happens, and when it does, it strikes a lot of people as patently unfair.  Is it rare situation?  Sure, relatively speaking.  Does the rarity mean the perceived unfairness should be ignored?  Seems like a bad rule of thumb. 

I've thought about this problem (real/perceived unfairness v. what do, practically, to solve it?), and I can't think of a great solution so I've kind of thrown my hands up and taken a devil-may-care, let'em play.  But getting to that point required some time and I don't really think I was ever being disengnuous about it even when I was wrestling with it.  CF3 seems to be wrestling with it in good faith too.

You literally answered this with another anecdote. Girls and boys get beat by other girls and boys on growth hormone too, so rough ridin' what?

Girls get beaten by other girls because they can afford private lessons. Girls get beaten by other girls because they get to practice more. Girls get beaten by other girls because of naturally born physical advantage. Girls get beaten by other girls for all kinds of actual reasons that happens every single day. Do we care about suburban girls having 4x the athletic budget of city girls in the same conference with the same classification?

Literally what the eff are we talking about here? Stop with the bullshit excuses.
Yeah, I'm not gonna jump in and argue the substance just to play devil's advocate any further.  Like I said, I think it's a complicated issue, and one I've never really seen any great solutions for.  But I think different people can have different (genuine) perspectives on it without necessarily being biggotted.

FWIW, CF3, consider any practical, tenable solutions to the problem.  Pretty soon, you're inevitably wading into some kind of "genital checks" or some nonsense to secure fair-play in high school bowling or some crap.  It's just not worth it.  That's where I wound up.

DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.

The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?

You're arguing that high school boys, on average, aren't bigger, stronger, and more athletic than high school girls? I'm not going to argue about this any more because I hate arguing, especially on the internet, but that seems like an insane statement to make.

He's a complete lunatic, don't bother. 



Offline yoga-like_abana

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I'm a bigot guys.. I hate KU!
Go Cats!

Offline Trim

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This debate is good in that it has dax making memes.

Offline DQ12

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DQ, whenever you're attempting to stop someone from doing something simply because of their identity, it's bigotry, period. Saying trans girls have athletic disadvantages just because they were born with a penis is absolutely wrong, and everyone knows it. Biological boys, particularly in adolescence don't have this wide gap in physical ability, from biological girls. If these people were interested in a purely biological conversation, there is plenty of evidence that shows the physical differences in the muscular development in adolescent boys and girls isn't some wide gap. Then take into account that there are really no girls contact sports played in high schools, even sports that allow contact, like lacrosse and ice hockey, men removed the contact components because they didn't think girls could handle it.

The whole save women's sports thing is a house of cards when you consider that the entire premise is that girls are these fragile flowers that need saving from big bad boys, it's absurd. My oldest daughter is 5'8" 130, in 8th grade. She plays soccer, how many boys do you think she needs to be saved from?
Yeah I guess we reach the same result for different reasons. From what I've read, boys tend to have a significant athletic advantage over girls in sports beginning at about puberty (12-13) and widening and plateauing at 18.  To me, I think that's an unfair advantage (that, for whatever reason, we haven't traditionally accepted like we have for other unfair advantages (money, height etc.)).  So it strikes me as facially unfair.  But I also don't think it's worth going into some hugely complicated (and potentially) invasive solutions to stop the unfair advantage.  Especially when comes to athletes who are under 18 and the situation is ultra rare. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 04:22:18 PM by DQ12 »


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Spracne

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This debate is good in that it has dax making memes.


Offline Cartierfor3

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CF3 i am willing to believe that you are approaching this from a good faith perspective, so i think maybe what needs to happen is a little introspection. Have you stopped to ask yourself, why do i care about this? Why am i so supportive of laws or rules that are keeping a certain group of people from being able to participate? You have piped up in this thread on several occasions about this topic of transwomen being allowed to participate in women's sports, but i've noticed you haven't expressed any sort of opinion about the laws that have already been passed, or the laws that are republican lawmakers are currently trying to pass in this country, that would essentially make it illegal (or exceedingly difficult) to be a trans person.

And this isn't me calling you a bigot, fwiw! I think a very natural part of the human condition is to fear things we don't like or don't understand. and that's okay! It takes a lot of work to break yourself from that kind of thinking. There's only like maybe one person on this entire blog who was just born naturally blessed with the absolute correct perspective on all manner of things at all times always since the history of ever, but for everyone else it takes effort to check your biases.

And hey man, i'll put myself out there as an example of how i am very much imperfect in my biases. As much as I would love for all homelessness, crime, drug addiction, etc. to be gone in this country...if i'm being honest, I don't really want any of those solutions to be in my neighborhood. And i feel bad for saying that, but like, honestly i do fall into the NIMBY crowd (and i would bet that most ppl reading this thread are probably the same way, like, inject them with truth serum and then ask if they really want a convicted pedophile moving in down the street, i bet i can tell you what the answer is).

I guess what i'm getting at - is that when it comes to legitimate reasons that any sort of legislation should be passed, there is just no logical reason whatosever that this should be a topic. The amount of people "victimized" by trans athletes being allowed to participate, the "risks" of allowing trans people to continue to participate - on literally any other subject this would not even so much as get a hearing because it has such a low stakes impact on a statistically irrelevant amount of people.

So if that's the case, then you have to ask yourself why is it so important to you? If its because you struggle with the idea of someone being trans, if you find it kind of yucky, or if quite simply put you don't understand it and you would just rather not have to see it or deal with it, you wouldn't be alone. Lots of people feel that way.

But then that's where you have to do the whole moral reckoning thing and ask yourself "is me being grossed out or uncomfortable with something a good enough reason for it to be outlawed?"

I am unclear what question I am being asked.

Are you asking my opinions on laws regarding minors in terms of health care, or a particular state law? Or are you asking my opinion on laws proposed or voted on regarding sports? Or are you asking if I find this topic yucky?

That was kind of a word salad without a clear landing zone to respond.

Happy to answer or engage, but you need to narrow a bit.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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i'm asking about trans women being allowed to participate in womens sports. I think we can all agree its such a narrow topic, why should there be laws against it?

Offline Cartierfor3

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i'm asking about trans women being allowed to participate in womens sports. I think we can all agree its such a narrow topic, why should there be laws against it?

Gotcha. I'm not sure I'm in favor of a law. Laws have weird unintended consequences.

Like, there's not a law saying a 16 year old can't compete in a 12u baseball tournament (at least I think that's not a law) but it's more a societal value. It doesn't get enforced by the law (I think, perhaps I'm mistaken) but we all kind of agree that yeah, it's not cool to do that and individual youth leagues and junk do their best to make sure kids are in the right division and junk.

Maybe at the KSHAA level its on the books somewhere? Again, not really sure.

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Also I officiate baseball games and I'll show up to a 13U game and let me tell you, its the honor system. I have no idea if any kid is on the right roster or actually 13 or any of that, I just say play ball and call balls and strikes.

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I would probably be in favor of laws for prisons remaining single sex

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Yeah, kinda tough to make an apples to apples comparo there because - until we develop the ability to travel at or near the speed of light - age (or more specifically the measurement of the passage of time) is unambiguous and very easy to quantify. When I got an MIP in college I tried pleading my case that I identified as 21 but the judge wasn’t having it. (I’m just kidding about the MIP, I was lucky enough to never get busted)

But I think the point you are trying to make is about fairness. It’s not fair for a 15 year old to play in a 13U league. Ok. But physical development is pretty much a linear function of time at that age. 15 year olds are going to be more developed than 13 year olds. But as has been adjudicated in this thread, it’s not so linear when it comes to males and females. From hormone levels to muscular or skeletal development you can’t really just say boys are more X than girls. Throw in puberty blockers and it gets even more muddy.

And that tracks, bc otherwise every trans woman that has ever completed would beat the brakes off the competition, and every trans male would get obliterated, and that just isn’t how it happens.

So, what’s the problem?