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Messages - Justwin

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901
Is arsenal going to get relegated? Crazy to think about it.

Canco you were crazy to think about it.

902
Yes. It speaks mainly to two things:
—The utter incompetence of the Trump administration
—The absolute selfishness of Americans

Maybe it speaks to the fact that the US population is 3.5 times higher now than in 1918.

903
I would have thought that any nursing home would shitcan any staff that refuses the vaccine.

they should.

Then who is going to work there?

904
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: The Real Estate Investing Thread
« on: December 29, 2020, 02:20:45 PM »
I appreciate all of your thoughts on real estate as they make me think about it as a driver of wealth.

One thing I think you should point out is that you can't keep taking losses forever on a rental property.  I think the rule is something like 2 out of the 5 previous years, you have to make money on it or you are not allowed to claim a loss.  You are only allowed to claim it as zero income without offsetting other income if you aren't making making money the required number of years.
I've never heard that specifically, but I'm not a tax professional. I'm guessing you're speaking about true losses where my note on taxes is talking about depreciating the property to offset positive income. Only buy priory that positively cashflow.

The main thing is that you have to be able to convince the IRS that you have a profit motive.  You may or may not be able to do this if your rental has a loss every year.  If you can show a profit for 3 out of the previous 5 years, you are presumed to have a profit motive.

Also, there are limitations on taking rental losses since it is considered passive income.  You need to make sure that you meet the definitions to not consider it passive or have a low enough income in order to have rental losses offset W2 income.

905
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: The Real Estate Investing Thread
« on: December 24, 2020, 10:17:32 PM »
I appreciate all of your thoughts on real estate as they make me think about it as a driver of wealth.

One thing I think you should point out is that you can't keep taking losses forever on a rental property.  I think the rule is something like 2 out of the 5 previous years, you have to make money on it or you are not allowed to claim a loss.  You are only allowed to claim it as zero income without offsetting other income if you aren't making making money the required number of years.

906
The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit / Re: Economics Of The Election
« on: December 18, 2020, 02:59:19 PM »
The article you linked explains that the IRS has taken the position that these expenses are not deductible. The Revenue Rulings just "help" in determining when they aren't deductible. Congress intended for the forgiveness to be tax exempt. There is a section of the Internal Revenue Code that states that expenses are not deductible to the extent they are paid with tax exempt funds. The IRS took this section and applied it to PPP loan forgiveness and decided that these expenses are nondeductible.

If you have tax exempt forgiveness but the expenses paid with the loans are nondeductible, you have taxable forgiveness. Again, I'm not arguing that these loans should be forgiven tax-free for all - there are absolutely people who abused them, just look at some Sedgwick County Commissioners - but Congress clearly meant for these loans to be "free." Employers would not have retained workers with these loans when business was down if they knew they would be paying 40% of their wages in taxes. Congress didn't think things through with their bill, per usual, and the IRS overstepped.

They are idiots but it's not a loophole in the new relief. Dealing with these stupid PPP loans is part of my job.

Is there anything clear on how PPP loan distributions to partners in a partnership should be treated and be reported on a partner's K-1?

You got a PPP loan and distributed the funds to yourself instead of paying rent, payroll, etc.? That is beyond the scope of this here blog.

Not sure why it's beyond the scope of this blog, but owners were allowed to get PPP loans based on their self-employment income in a pass-through entity.  It is equivalent to distributing it as payroll.

907
The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit / Re: Economics Of The Election
« on: December 18, 2020, 09:52:18 AM »
The article you linked explains that the IRS has taken the position that these expenses are not deductible. The Revenue Rulings just "help" in determining when they aren't deductible. Congress intended for the forgiveness to be tax exempt. There is a section of the Internal Revenue Code that states that expenses are not deductible to the extent they are paid with tax exempt funds. The IRS took this section and applied it to PPP loan forgiveness and decided that these expenses are nondeductible.

If you have tax exempt forgiveness but the expenses paid with the loans are nondeductible, you have taxable forgiveness. Again, I'm not arguing that these loans should be forgiven tax-free for all - there are absolutely people who abused them, just look at some Sedgwick County Commissioners - but Congress clearly meant for these loans to be "free." Employers would not have retained workers with these loans when business was down if they knew they would be paying 40% of their wages in taxes. Congress didn't think things through with their bill, per usual, and the IRS overstepped.

They are idiots but it's not a loophole in the new relief. Dealing with these stupid PPP loans is part of my job.

Is there anything clear on how PPP loan distributions to partners in a partnership should be treated and be reported on a partner's K-1?

908
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/17/kathleen-rice-aoc-house-committee-448001

Quote

Rep. Kathleen Rice has captured a prized seat on the House Energy and Commerce Committee after a contentious showdown with fellow New Yorker, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

Rice and Ocasio-Cortez have been battling behind the scenes for weeks to secure one of the few open seats on the exclusive committee, which oversees everything from health care policy to climate issues. Tensions spilled into the open Thursday in a private meeting of the Steering and Policy Committee, where Democrats were forced to choose between the two members in a tense — and awkward — secret ballot vote.

Rice ultimately won in a lopsided vote of 46-13, though it wasn’t without some drama after some moderate Democrats openly criticized Ocasio-Cortez.

"I'm taking into account who works against other members in primaries and who doesn't,” Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Texas) said on the call, according to multiple sources. Cuellar successfully fended off a primary challenge from Jessica Cisneros, who Ocasio-Cortez supported.

Progressives both inside and outside of the Capitol said it would be critical to have Ocasio-Cortez on the Energy and Commerce Committee to help influence critical policies in the early days of the Biden administration.

But some senior Democrats, including on the Energy and Commerce panel, had privately voiced concerns about Ocasio-Cortez landing the seat. Some feared that the firebrand Democrat, who backs progressive priorities like the "Green New Deal" and "Medicare for All," could cause issues as Congress attempts to draft bipartisan health and climate policies next year.



909
I bet Massachusetts changed behavior for Thanksgiving a lot more than Kansas or Ohio

In the sense that Kansas and Ohio generally were not socially distancing etc. before Thanksgiving, so their behavior on Thanksgiving was no different, whereas Massachusetts socially distanced before Thanksgiving, and then for one day said screw it, we're not socially distancing for this one day?

yes

Wish he would have done California but I think we were starting to spike sooner

I can see that in general, but I would be really interested in seeing what his model says the Thanksgiving bump for Kansas is.  If you look at the line  for the seven-day average for Kansas, it's hard to see how there could be any kind of Thanksgiving bump.  There is a dip immediately following Thanksgiving almost certainly due to people not getting tested, counties not reporting and the like.  There is a bump that follows it to make up for the cases that didn't get reported and then the downward trend continues.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/Kansas

My two thoughts on this are:

1.  If your model is finding a positive effect from Thanksgiving for Kansas, your model is looking for a result and designed to do so.

2.  If your model does not find a positive result from Kansas, is it really plausible that there is the same amount of interaction on Thanksgiving as prior to it.  There's almost no way that people from around the state are all getting together on one day.  Then add in the people that came in from out of state and the amount of social distancing is almost certainly less in Kansas than it was prior to Thanksgiving.  In normal years, there is less social distancing on Thanksgiving than on the days leading up to it.

910
I bet Massachusetts changed behavior for Thanksgiving a lot more than Kansas or Ohio

In the sense that Kansas and Ohio generally were not socially distancing etc. before Thanksgiving, so their behavior on Thanksgiving was no different, whereas Massachusetts socially distanced before Thanksgiving, and then for one day said screw it, we're not socially distancing for this one day?

911
pretty crude, but better than nothing, look at a thanksgiving effect.

https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1339683889510379520

Definitely a crude look.  In Kansas, the seven-day average on November 26 was 2771.  The current seven-day average is 2033.  The seven-day average on December 10 was 2563.  The seven-day average has never been above 2771 since November 26.  There is almost no way you could convince me that there was/is any kind of a Thanksgiving bump.

All numbers are taken from Worldometers.

912
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: New To Investing Thread
« on: December 14, 2020, 01:42:03 PM »

yeah that's all fairly reasonable for you, and I certainly don't begrudge you that choice at all. 

I still think it is pretty crazy to judge people for being upset when their benefits system that they had nothing to do with setting up or choosing goes bad. The fact that I was born and raised in Kansas determined that I was probably going to get a job in Kansas.  For nearly everyone this is the case, so acting like people have all these choices and that they are using this as rational, when in reality that isn't what is going on.  I shouldn't get credit for lucking in to a good system.

I don't judge people for being upset.  I'd be pissed too if I was in that situation.  However, I in no way support bailing out state pension systems with federal funds.  And if I was a taxpayer in those states with failing pension systems, I would in no way support higher taxes to support the pension systems.

Like I said earlier, I can see guaranteeing individuals in those pension systems benefits that are comparable to what they would have received through Social Security if they are in a system that opted out of Social Security.  I think that is fair.  However, anything above and beyond that, I wouldn't be in favor of.  My position is that if you believe promises that are too good to be true, don't get too upset when they turn out to not be true.  If you are currently a part of a pension system that is in bad shape, you should be planning and saving based on that information.  The information is widely available and you can't claim ignorance at this point.  If you don't like the situation, have some agency and make a change.  I'm forced to be a part of a retirement system I wish I could opt out of (Social Security).  Rather than dwell on how terrible of a return I get from it, and how much I'd like it to go away, I take it as a given and make plans accordingly.  If I could opt out of Social Security when I am 40, and let Social Security keep all of the taxes I have paid over my lifetime (it would be 27 years of taxes at that point), I would do it in a heartbeat.  Even if it meant I had to save the 12.4% that goes into it on my behalf in some sort of retirement account, that would be fine.  In terms of opting out, I mean Social Security would never owe me anything and I never pay in again.

In terms of you lucking into KPERS, I guess I don't attribute as much of the results of life to luck or things beyond my control.  I also wonder how many people around the country would agree that you are lucky that you were born and now work in Kansas.  Don't get me wrong, it is where I want to live and work and don't ever plan to move away, but I don't think a lot of people share that sentiment.

913
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: New To Investing Thread
« on: December 14, 2020, 09:56:48 AM »
Not everyone has that. In fact, in several states teacher pension system kicks people off of social security. Not Kansas, but still pretty garbage tbh.

You think it's shitty for someone to not be allowed to benefit from Social Security when they didn't contribute to it?  The states don't kick people off Social Security.  The federal government does.

The states set up agreements with the federal government so that people in their pension systems don't have to pay the Social Security portion of FICA taxes.  The money that would have gone to Social Security then goes to fund the pension system.  My wife's mom had this when she taught in Nevada.  The return on what she put in for NVPERS is a lot greater than what she would have got from Social Security.
The teachers in a state that did not opt in to social security are at the whim of their state government not fulfilling their obligations and that is a much more likely scenario than Uncle Sam.

Illinois is a state that opted out and it worked out fantastically for my father in law, but I would be at least a little nervous if I were a mid career teacher. But even Illinois isn’t the state that I am thinking of as being a worst case scenario, that would be Kentucky where the state has perpetually underfunded the pension, teachers have much lower average salaries and a much less generous pension than most illinois teachers and on top of that the state seems even more hell bent on not funding it than Illinois.

Also since you brought up Nevada my sister in law worked there for a few years, the Clark County education funding was a nightmare although I honestly don’t know how specific that was to LV vs the rest of the state. I will ask her about what the LV pension looks like for someone that leaves before fully vested, which is another huge issue.

In Kansas I have a decent pension, social security, and have saved money for retirement with a Roth. Teachers don’t get a great salary, but the financial security of knowing that I have 3 different retirement savings is good piece of mind that is worth more than the actual cash benefit and I also love the job.

So again, while it doesn’t impact me I think it is a pretty bad deal for a lot of teachers (though some have no doubt done better).

My wife's mom worked in CCSD and her pension check clears every month.  I haven't read anything about NVPERS being underfunded.

If states are paying less to a pension than they would pay for the employer's contribution to Social Security, then I agree that is shitty.

However, I have a pretty low level of sympathy for public employees when it comes to the financial viability of their pensions.  In most cases, they have been promised benefits which are actuarially unsound often times through what I consider to be corrupt bargains between elected officials and public employee unions.  It's not my fault you believed fantastical promises.  However, I would be ok with public employees that have pensions in place of Social Security being guaranteed the Social Security equivalent in any court cases that are going to come in terms of public pensions and state bankruptcies.

I made the conscious choice to work at places that have defined contribution rather than defined benefit primary retirement plans.  If you sign on to a defined benefit plan, you knew that going in.  You also knew the risks and thus should suffer the consequences if those risks come home to roost.

I think you have a pretty warped view about how normal people make decisions about their lives.

The idea that you sought out your career path for defined contribution plans is hilarious. If you are private sector then it is a really funny statement. If you are public sector I would love to hear how this was a deciding factor.

I know how people make decisions and the way they do is generally pretty suboptimal.  But, in my opinion, you don't get to cry victim because of the way you make decisions.  This is especially true now that it is pretty widely known the shape a lot of these public pensions are in.  Don't believe promises that are nearly impossible to be held up.

In terms of me deciding where to work, it's pretty straightforward to see if a university offers defined benefit vs defined contribution and use that as a factor in making a decision.  Obviously, there could be factors that outweigh a university offering defined benefit, but everything else equal, I definitely choose the university with defined contribution.  For example, I interviewed at Western Illinois University and they have defined benefit in a pension system in pretty bad shape.  There was almost no way I was taking that job unless there were no other options or something else was just fantastic about the position.  I know who took the position and it was a married couple where both of them were offered positions there.  That would be something that would outweigh the defined benefit aspect.  They also are no longer there.

A lot of my goals involve not needing to work if I don't want to by the time I am 45, so the nature of the retirement plan is pretty important.

914
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: New To Investing Thread
« on: December 13, 2020, 07:32:48 PM »
Not everyone has that. In fact, in several states teacher pension system kicks people off of social security. Not Kansas, but still pretty garbage tbh.

You think it's shitty for someone to not be allowed to benefit from Social Security when they didn't contribute to it?  The states don't kick people off Social Security.  The federal government does.

The states set up agreements with the federal government so that people in their pension systems don't have to pay the Social Security portion of FICA taxes.  The money that would have gone to Social Security then goes to fund the pension system.  My wife's mom had this when she taught in Nevada.  The return on what she put in for NVPERS is a lot greater than what she would have got from Social Security.
The teachers in a state that did not opt in to social security are at the whim of their state government not fulfilling their obligations and that is a much more likely scenario than Uncle Sam.

Illinois is a state that opted out and it worked out fantastically for my father in law, but I would be at least a little nervous if I were a mid career teacher. But even Illinois isn’t the state that I am thinking of as being a worst case scenario, that would be Kentucky where the state has perpetually underfunded the pension, teachers have much lower average salaries and a much less generous pension than most illinois teachers and on top of that the state seems even more hell bent on not funding it than Illinois.

Also since you brought up Nevada my sister in law worked there for a few years, the Clark County education funding was a nightmare although I honestly don’t know how specific that was to LV vs the rest of the state. I will ask her about what the LV pension looks like for someone that leaves before fully vested, which is another huge issue.

In Kansas I have a decent pension, social security, and have saved money for retirement with a Roth. Teachers don’t get a great salary, but the financial security of knowing that I have 3 different retirement savings is good piece of mind that is worth more than the actual cash benefit and I also love the job.

So again, while it doesn’t impact me I think it is a pretty bad deal for a lot of teachers (though some have no doubt done better).

My wife's mom worked in CCSD and her pension check clears every month.  I haven't read anything about NVPERS being underfunded.

If states are paying less to a pension than they would pay for the employer's contribution to Social Security, then I agree that is shitty.

However, I have a pretty low level of sympathy for public employees when it comes to the financial viability of their pensions.  In most cases, they have been promised benefits which are actuarially unsound often times through what I consider to be corrupt bargains between elected officials and public employee unions.  It's not my fault you believed fantastical promises.  However, I would be ok with public employees that have pensions in place of Social Security being guaranteed the Social Security equivalent in any court cases that are going to come in terms of public pensions and state bankruptcies.

I made the conscious choice to work at places that have defined contribution rather than defined benefit primary retirement plans.  If you sign on to a defined benefit plan, you knew that going in.  You also knew the risks and thus should suffer the consequences if those risks come home to roost.

915
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: New To Investing Thread
« on: December 13, 2020, 07:21:26 PM »
I think a lot of people in this thread should learn about the labor theory of value. I’m not saying you have to agree with it, but to understand it would be helpful.

If by understand it, you mean to understand that it is complete bullshit and one of the worst economic theories ever concocted, I 100% agree with you.

916
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: New To Investing Thread
« on: December 12, 2020, 08:22:42 PM »
Not everyone has that. In fact, in several states teacher pension system kicks people off of social security. Not Kansas, but still pretty garbage tbh.

You think it's shitty for someone to not be allowed to benefit from Social Security when they didn't contribute to it?  The states don't kick people off Social Security.  The federal government does.

The states set up agreements with the federal government so that people in their pension systems don't have to pay the Social Security portion of FICA taxes.  The money that would have gone to Social Security then goes to fund the pension system.  My wife's mom had this when she taught in Nevada.  The return on what she put in for NVPERS is a lot greater than what she would have got from Social Security.

917
Essentially Flyertalk / Re: New To Investing Thread
« on: December 10, 2020, 07:48:03 PM »

Math time!! To show plainly what I said above with nice round numbers. You buy a fixer for $50k. Being a fixer, you may or may not go to a traditional bank for it. Let's just assume you did, but IRL, just know there are other private lenders for this. Your down payment would be around 20% or $10k. You put $25k into it to get it all fixed up. Maybe you had that money or maybe it was lent. Doesn't matter, let's stay on topic. So all in, you and your lender have put $75k into it. But, now it's worth $100k. Banks will usually lend around 75% of the value of a property. What does this mean? You go to a new bank and refinance. They do the appraisal, and sure enough, it appraises for exactly $100k. So, they loan 75k on the property, which first goes to the previous lender to pay them out and what's left over goes to you which comes out to exactly your down payment. What are you left with? A free house that someone else will pay the mortgage for if you did it right. Take that money and do it again.

I have done that before with apartments too. So you're able to recycle your money over and over again. It just needs to positively cashflow so you don't lose the property to the bank. It's a longer process with apartments, but still do-able. The term you'll hear a lot is "value-add".

If I left anything out, please ask. I feel like most people stopped reading long before this sentence, so I'll stop here.

What is the rent on the rehabbed 100K property?

918
The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit / Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« on: November 19, 2020, 09:30:16 PM »
Only fair thing to do is have another vote

This was obvious on November 2.

919

I don't know what exact evidence you're looking for. Isn't it obvious that vaccinating the groups of people who have the greatest percentage of deaths the best way to prevent more deaths?

It's only obvious if you assume the likelihood of being infected and the number of people an infected person transmits the virus to are the same for all age groups (or that they are lower for younger age groups).  I would tend to think both the likelihood of being infected and the number of people an infected person transmits the virus to are higher for younger age groups.  This would allow for vaccinating younger people first to save more lives.  It just depends on the relative size of the infection and transmission rates compared to the mortality rates.

920
Sys is right

I thought the people disagreeing with him were just kidding. Not wanting the elderly and those with comprising heath issues to get the vaccine first is just as ghoulish as justwin's kill the weak for the greater good talking point that kicked this pandemic off.

Sys may be right about what the public is willing to accept, but you're not necessarily going to get the best bang for your buck by vaccinating the old and those with comorbidities first.  It is quite possible you'll get a better bang for your buck by vaccinating those most likely to be spreaders.  Also, if you vaccinate younger people first, you'll probably be able to open more businesses sooner.

The idea that having comorbidities, that are a result of your own lifestyle choices, gets you privileged access to the vaccine is not uncontroversial to everyone.

My talking point about weighing the economic impacts is not ghoulish, but is rational.  There are all kinds of people, including Peter Singer, that were discussing these kinds of issues.  Your attempt to shut down the debate by characterizing it that way is the ghoulish behavior.  It's quite possible that the economic consequences of shutting down were worth the benefits, but it doesn't just immediately follow that it is the case because some people may die.

A couple of things, most importantly is most comotbidities aren't a result of lifestyle choices.

The people that you want to vaccinate first, people most likely to be spreaders, is the segment of the population least likely to get the vaccine. Old people spend money too and are much more likely to get the vaccine.

You want to seemingly punish people with comorbidities and the elderly, but reward people with the greatest means to sit home for a couple of months while continuing to contribute to the economy.

You want the economy helped, let the government do that, not science. A stimulus will keep people going for two more quarters, a stimulus won't keep our most vulnerable citizens alive.

Never said all comorbidities were a result of lifestyle choices.

If your goal is saving as many lives as possible, it's not a slam dunk that vaccinating older people first is the way to go.  Do you have evidence that it is?  It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that's not the way to maximize lives saved.  If the evidence shows vaccinating younger people first would save more lives, then that should be the way we should proceed.

921
Sys is right

I thought the people disagreeing with him were just kidding. Not wanting the elderly and those with comprising heath issues to get the vaccine first is just as ghoulish as justwin's kill the weak for the greater good talking point that kicked this pandemic off.

Sys may be right about what the public is willing to accept, but you're not necessarily going to get the best bang for your buck by vaccinating the old and those with comorbidities first.  It is quite possible you'll get a better bang for your buck by vaccinating those most likely to be spreaders.  Also, if you vaccinate younger people first, you'll probably be able to open more businesses sooner.

The idea that having comorbidities, that are a result of your own lifestyle choices, gets you privileged access to the vaccine is not uncontroversial to everyone.

My talking point about weighing the economic impacts is not ghoulish, but is rational.  There are all kinds of people, including Peter Singer, that were discussing these kinds of issues.  Your attempt to shut down the debate by characterizing it that way is the ghoulish behavior.  It's quite possible that the economic consequences of shutting down were worth the benefits, but it doesn't just immediately follow that it is the case because some people may die.

922
The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit / Re: political hobbyist thread
« on: November 09, 2020, 09:35:23 PM »
https://unherd.com/2020/11/meet-the-shy-trumpers/

Quote
As figure 1 illustrates, 45% of Republicans with degrees, compared to 23% of Democrats with degrees, said they feared that their careers could be at risk if their views became known.

...

According to a Pew survey on October 9, Trump was leading Biden by 21 points among white non-graduates but trailing him by 26 points among white graduates. Likewise, a Politico/ABC poll on October 11 found that ‘Trump leads by 26 points among white voters without four-year college degrees, but Biden holds a 31-point lead with white college graduates.’

The exit polls, however, show that Trump ran even among white college graduates 49-49, and even had an edge among white female graduates of 50-49! This puts pre-election surveys out by a whopping 26-31 points among white graduates. By contrast, among whites without degrees, the actual tilt in the election was 64-35, a 29-point gap, which the polls basically got right.

923
The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit / Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« on: November 03, 2020, 11:56:40 AM »
On this election day, I sit and ponder, what is the one compelling argument that Donald J Trump has shown the past 4 years or says he will do over the next 4 that compels any rational voter to say "yes, I choose him".

I can legit every election see something in another candidate that I think, yeah okay I can see that point, not important to me or my point of view but it is for that voter, got it.  I can't see one thing in Trump.  It drives me mad because I know not every person voting Trump is a mindless "I vote for R only" voter.

Judges.

924
The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit / Re: Economics Of The Election
« on: October 22, 2020, 10:10:04 PM »
also I apologize for not remembering but which one of you was the death opportunity cost strong econ guy out of the gates on Covid? would like to revisit all that again (your takes could have possibly owned, I don't remember) but those were good talks.

An article I saw recently said COVID was responsible for 2.5 million years of life lost.  That's the equivalent of $250-$350 billion.

If you think all of the shutdowns prevented some multiple of that in years of lives lost, then you might think all of the shutdowns were worth it.  There's almost no way you can convince me all of Kansas should have been shut down in March-May.  Everything regarding COVID-19 is much worse in Kansas now than it was in April, yet we aren't shutting anything down now.

925
Posted in another thread but KU med docs have repeatedly stated that infections as a result of school openings/other large events aren't typically known for 6-8 weeks due to the speed of infection cycle.

No idea when the first schools started reopening but I don't think most have been open for more than a few weeks.

Riley County and Rock Creek have been in session since August 20.  Manhattan has been in session since August 26.  Wamego started September 2-3.  K-State has been in session since August 17.

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