Author Topic: jobs  (Read 273994 times)

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Online Kat Kid

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Re: jobs
« Reply #250 on: July 01, 2015, 12:09:36 PM »
Well, that doesn't answer if it is legal or illegal.

OK, but what if it is a situation where it's like we are going to hire someone if/when we find someone who is a good fit for the position we need - we might not ever hire someone if we don't find the right person (so therefore even the "best" candidate might not get hired if they are not the right fit for the position/company)...and English as a first language is just one of the criteria for being the right fit.

Yes, it's illegal. Your company should probably be ashamed of itself for even considering that.

I'm a firm believer in companies being able to hire/fire whoever they want to. The most qualified candidate might not be the best fit for your company. The fact that people get sued for this all the time is ridiculous and all these hiring rules/laws are BS in my opinion. If I own a company, I should be able to hire/fire whoever I want, whenever I want, for whatever reason I want.

You can.  You just can't tell other people why they are being fired.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #251 on: July 01, 2015, 01:13:22 PM »
I believe that it's probably a good idea for the government to do what it can to make it possible for minorities to succeed in life and find good jobs in the private sector.

Offline sys

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Re: jobs
« Reply #252 on: July 01, 2015, 02:05:44 PM »
it's arguable whether you could legally discriminate against a candidate for not being a native english speaker.  but if the position involves speaking english you can certainly discriminate among candidates based on english proficiency, including accent, which i'm sure is what mrs. gooch meant.
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Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: jobs
« Reply #253 on: July 01, 2015, 02:47:30 PM »
it's arguable whether you could legally discriminate against a candidate for not being a native english speaker.  but if the position involves speaking english you can certainly discriminate among candidates based on english proficiency, including accent, which i'm sure is what mrs. gooch meant.

Yes, the job includes speaking to your co-workers in English, giving presentations in English, telecons in English, emailing in English....
And it is not about the fact that that are not a native English speaker, but that it is so obvious that English is not their first language because they are not speaking it correctly.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: jobs
« Reply #254 on: July 01, 2015, 02:49:25 PM »
it's arguable whether you could legally discriminate against a candidate for not being a native english speaker.  but if the position involves speaking english you can certainly discriminate among candidates based on english proficiency, including accent, which i'm sure is what mrs. gooch meant.

Yes, the job includes speaking to your co-workers in English, giving presentations in English, telecons in English, emailing in English....
And it is not about the fact that that are not a native English speaker, but that it is so obvious that English is not their first language because they are not speaking it correctly.

Actually it is more of a LOL that the first thing the hiring manager says after the candidate leaves is that English is not his first language....Hypothetically.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #255 on: July 01, 2015, 02:56:39 PM »
it's arguable whether you could legally discriminate against a candidate for not being a native english speaker.  but if the position involves speaking english you can certainly discriminate among candidates based on english proficiency, including accent, which i'm sure is what mrs. gooch meant.

Yes, the job includes speaking to your co-workers in English, giving presentations in English, telecons in English, emailing in English....
And it is not about the fact that that are not a native English speaker, but that it is so obvious that English is not their first language because they are not speaking it correctly.

I think it's safe to not hire him as long as you don't tell him why you aren't hiring them. The EEOC's website makes it pretty clear that you can't legally refuse to hire somebody because they have an accent, though.

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: jobs
« Reply #256 on: July 01, 2015, 02:58:31 PM »
it's arguable whether you could legally discriminate against a candidate for not being a native english speaker.  but if the position involves speaking english you can certainly discriminate among candidates based on english proficiency, including accent, which i'm sure is what mrs. gooch meant.

Yes, the job includes speaking to your co-workers in English, giving presentations in English, telecons in English, emailing in English....
And it is not about the fact that that are not a native English speaker, but that it is so obvious that English is not their first language because they are not speaking it correctly.

I think it's safe to not hire him as long as you don't tell him why you aren't hiring them. The EEOC's website makes it pretty clear that you can't legally refuse to hire somebody because they have an accent, though.

Accent isn't that same as having the incorrect sentence structure.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #257 on: July 01, 2015, 02:59:45 PM »
it's arguable whether you could legally discriminate against a candidate for not being a native english speaker.  but if the position involves speaking english you can certainly discriminate among candidates based on english proficiency, including accent, which i'm sure is what mrs. gooch meant.

Yes, the job includes speaking to your co-workers in English, giving presentations in English, telecons in English, emailing in English....
And it is not about the fact that that are not a native English speaker, but that it is so obvious that English is not their first language because they are not speaking it correctly.

I think it's safe to not hire him as long as you don't tell him why you aren't hiring them. The EEOC's website makes it pretty clear that you can't legally refuse to hire somebody because they have an accent, though.

Accent isn't that same as having the incorrect sentence structure.

Well, you never mentioned that. That is not the same thing as speaking English as a second language or having an accent.

Offline sys

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Re: jobs
« Reply #258 on: July 01, 2015, 03:54:12 PM »
The EEOC's website makes it pretty clear that you can't legally refuse to hire somebody because they have an accent, though.

actually, it very clearly says that you can - if the accent would interfere with the applicant's job performance.  accent is a part of language proficiency, it would be ludicrous to suggest that you couldn't make language proficiency a qualification for a job.

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...and is not job-related or necessary to the operation of the business.

An employer can only require an employee to speak fluent English if fluency in English is necessary to perform the job effectively. An “English-only rule”, which requires employees to speak only English on the job, is only allowed if it is needed to ensure the safe or efficient operation of the employer’s business and is put in place for nondiscriminatory reasons.

An employer may not base an employment decision on an employee’s foreign accent, unless the accent seriously interferes with the employee’s job performance.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #259 on: July 01, 2015, 04:07:09 PM »
The EEOC's website makes it pretty clear that you can't legally refuse to hire somebody because they have an accent, though.

actually, it very clearly says that you can - if the accent would interfere with the applicant's job performance.  accent is a part of language proficiency, it would be ludicrous to suggest that you couldn't make language proficiency a qualification for a job.

Quote
...and is not job-related or necessary to the operation of the business.

An employer can only require an employee to speak fluent English if fluency in English is necessary to perform the job effectively. An “English-only rule”, which requires employees to speak only English on the job, is only allowed if it is needed to ensure the safe or efficient operation of the employer’s business and is put in place for nondiscriminatory reasons.

An employer may not base an employment decision on an employee’s foreign accent, unless the accent seriously interferes with the employee’s job performance.

Yeah, it's legal to not hire somebody because of their accent if you can justify it with a whole bunch of vaguely defined tests that may or may not hold up in court. It's quite possible that Mrs. Gooch's office already employs somebody with poor English skills (someone like WackyCat), which would make refusing to hire this guy who very likely has a better mastery of the English language less defendable.

Offline Gooch

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Re: jobs
« Reply #260 on: July 01, 2015, 04:08:39 PM »
Who knew I married such a racist? :dunno:

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: jobs
« Reply #261 on: July 01, 2015, 04:19:41 PM »
We only have 10 employees so finding one with poor English skills might be more difficult than you think.

Also, it is NOT me who is not hiring the guy.

Offline Mr Bread

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Re: jobs
« Reply #262 on: July 01, 2015, 04:48:29 PM »
The EEOC's website makes it pretty clear that you can't legally refuse to hire somebody because they have an accent, though.

actually, it very clearly says that you can - if the accent would interfere with the applicant's job performance.  accent is a part of language proficiency, it would be ludicrous to suggest that you couldn't make language proficiency a qualification for a job.

Quote
...and is not job-related or necessary to the operation of the business.

An employer can only require an employee to speak fluent English if fluency in English is necessary to perform the job effectively. An “English-only rule”, which requires employees to speak only English on the job, is only allowed if it is needed to ensure the safe or efficient operation of the employer’s business and is put in place for nondiscriminatory reasons.

An employer may not base an employment decision on an employee’s foreign accent, unless the accent seriously interferes with the employee’s job performance.

Yeah, it's legal to not hire somebody because of their accent if you can justify it with a whole bunch of vaguely defined tests that may or may not hold up in court. It's quite possible that Mrs. Gooch's office already employs somebody with poor English skills (someone like WackyCat), which would make refusing to hire this guy who very likely has a better mastery of the English language less defendable.

if the dumbass who already works there and is terrible at speaking/writing the english language holds a different position that doesn't require it, then no it isn't that difficult to distinguish from the prospective hire if the job they want does. 

get a load of captain thinks he knows what's legal and illegal over here.  talking a steady stream of nonsense straight out of your bad person isn't knowing the law.  sys tried to correct course on your dumbassery and you were all "nope, nope i'm rough ridin' doing this." 
My prescience is fully engorged.  It throbs with righteous accuracy.  I am sated.

Offline lopakman

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Re: jobs
« Reply #263 on: July 01, 2015, 04:48:39 PM »
Plz tell me I'm better than life insurance sales. These mofos are zapping the crap out of on LinkedIn. Massive calls ya'll

It's better than what you are doing now.

Is it legal or illegal to not hire someone because English appears (sounds?) to not be their first language?

If that is the only reason you don't want to hire them, then they are probably the best candidate.

What if the job is for an English teacher?
@lopakman

Offline Mr Bread

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Re: jobs
« Reply #264 on: July 01, 2015, 04:49:50 PM »
ratm has personal feelings about this and he thinks that's the same as knowing what the law allows.  he's got crap for his brains obvs. 
My prescience is fully engorged.  It throbs with righteous accuracy.  I am sated.

Offline Mikeyis4dcats

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Re: jobs
« Reply #265 on: July 01, 2015, 04:55:44 PM »
I'm trying to sale ppl $46,000 associate degrees when I can't find a good job with a masters. :lol:

 :D

that's my biggest pet peeve.   people who can't differentiate between the usage of SELL and SALE.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: jobs
« Reply #266 on: July 01, 2015, 05:01:10 PM »
I'm trying to sale ppl $46,000 associate degrees when I can't find a good job with a masters. :lol:

 :D

that's my biggest pet peeve.   people who can't differentiate between the usage of SELL and SALE.
Well, how 'bout you make like a kite and sell away.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 05:04:27 PM by WackyCat08 »

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Re: jobs
« Reply #267 on: July 01, 2015, 05:02:11 PM »
God bless you WackyCat08  :lol:
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Mikeyis4dcats

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Re: jobs
« Reply #268 on: July 01, 2015, 05:03:39 PM »
I'm trying to sale ppl $46,000 associate degrees when I can't find a good job with a masters. :lol:

 :D

that's my biggest pet peeve.   people who can't differentiate between the usage of SELL and SALE.
Well, make like a kite and sell away.

it's like fingernails on a chalkboard.    I see it all the time on CL and Facebook, and it makes me get edgy.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #269 on: July 01, 2015, 05:08:03 PM »
Plz tell me I'm better than life insurance sales. These mofos are zapping the crap out of on LinkedIn. Massive calls ya'll

It's better than what you are doing now.

Is it legal or illegal to not hire someone because English appears (sounds?) to not be their first language?

If that is the only reason you don't want to hire them, then they are probably the best candidate.

What if the job is for an English teacher?

You probably had a very poor applicant pool.

Seriously, though, The best English teacher I've ever had was from India. My high school Spanish teacher's first language was English. She wasn't that great. If I were hiring an English teacher and somebody who spoke English as a second language had better experience and credentials than all of the other applicants, I'd probably hire the foreigner.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 05:23:00 PM by Rage Against the McKee »

Online Kat Kid

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Re: jobs
« Reply #270 on: July 01, 2015, 05:33:38 PM »
Plz tell me I'm better than life insurance sales. These mofos are zapping the crap out of on LinkedIn. Massive calls ya'll

It's better than what you are doing now.

Is it legal or illegal to not hire someone because English appears (sounds?) to not be their first language?

If that is the only reason you don't want to hire them, then they are probably the best candidate.

What if the job is for an English teacher?

You probably had a very poor applicant pool.

Seriously, though, The best English teacher I've ever had was from India. My high school Spanish teacher's first language was English. She wasn't that great. If I were hiring an English teacher and somebody who spoke English as a second language had better experience and credentials than all of the other applicants, I'd probably hire the foreigner.

You know those aren't synonyms, right?

Offline Mrs. Gooch

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Re: jobs
« Reply #271 on: July 01, 2015, 05:36:33 PM »
Yeah I'm pretty sure the guy who hypothetically didn't get hired is a US Citizen (and was probably born here too).

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #272 on: July 01, 2015, 05:37:30 PM »
Plz tell me I'm better than life insurance sales. These mofos are zapping the crap out of on LinkedIn. Massive calls ya'll

It's better than what you are doing now.

Is it legal or illegal to not hire someone because English appears (sounds?) to not be their first language?

If that is the only reason you don't want to hire them, then they are probably the best candidate.

What if the job is for an English teacher?

You probably had a very poor applicant pool.

Seriously, though, The best English teacher I've ever had was from India. My high school Spanish teacher's first language was English. She wasn't that great. If I were hiring an English teacher and somebody who spoke English as a second language had better experience and credentials than all of the other applicants, I'd probably hire the foreigner.

You know those aren't synonyms, right?

Yes.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: jobs
« Reply #273 on: July 01, 2015, 05:39:33 PM »
Yeah I'm pretty sure the guy who hypothetically didn't get hired is a US Citizen (and was probably born here too).

What type of accent was it?

Offline Trim

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Re: jobs
« Reply #274 on: July 09, 2015, 12:32:47 AM »
This woman single-handedly murdered a Dodge City Village Square Mall institution, yet the company still offered her a position at another location.

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"We were told in early June the store would be closing," Christopher and Banks manager Charnea Cecil said. "I have only been manager here for about a month and a half but did see that our store was not doing much business.

"Then people from the corporate office came in to check on the store and three hours later when they left, they called me to say the store would be closing in six weeks."

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"I was offered a job at a possible Liberal location," Cecil said, "but I don’t want to live in Liberal. I grew up here and fashion has been something I have wanted to do since I was a kid.

http://www.dodgeglobe.com/article/20150708/NEWS/150709584