Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 1583369 times)

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Offline Justwin

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18675 on: February 04, 2025, 12:04:59 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

that seems awfully cruel

Why would banning abortions done by using mifepristone and misoprostol, be awfully cruel compared to other abortions?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18676 on: February 04, 2025, 12:06:39 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

that seems awfully cruel

Why would banning abortions done by using mifepristone and misoprostol, be awfully cruel compared to other abortions?

I thought you meant when the mother will die if forced to carry to term

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18677 on: February 04, 2025, 12:08:25 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?
Yes


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Offline Justwin

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18678 on: February 04, 2025, 12:08:50 PM »
A number of you have accused me of being a Trump guy or Rogan guy or (insert whatever right wing name you find offensive) guy. Three things have impacted my political opinions enormously over the last 8 years.

1. The national debt:  Our national debt is very close to the point interest payments will exceed our revenue. This could easily lead to an Argentinian style hyper inflationary mess. This is very very dangerous. Cuts must be made to spending, AND taxes must be increased.  Spending cuts are more effective than taxes, but both are necessary.  I believe the democrats to be too weak to make spending cuts…they are incapable of making tough decisions…too fearful of scorn from very small groups.

2. Risk from international enemies: Russia’s invasion of Ukraine shook me up. For a very long time I personally laughed at the idea that large countries would engage in wars of conquest. I thought that time was behind us as a species. I was wrong. The world is more dangerous than it has ever been. With resources coming under increased contention and changes occurring rapidly to our planet environment, nations are acting more and more out of self interest in very aggressive ways. We need to continue to have a strong defense and take no steps backward and the quality and effectiveness of our defense however, because of our need to cut costs, we need to do this in new ways that cost much less than the legacy defense contractors, the old guard of both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are 100% in bed with legacy defense contractors. The military industrial complex is currently in place though there are some who are making dents in it Elon Musk and other tech leaders have demonstrated that they can produce results and a fraction of the cost of the legacy defense contractors. We need vastly more of this. This is very scary to the legacy defense contractors who have run this country since Eisenhower’s warnings years ago…. The legacy defense contractors will fight this with everything that they have the Democrat Democrats do not have the spine to fight them and the legacy Republicans are bought and paid for by them already. We need new thinking in this area.

3. Risk of AI: I believe that we cannot stop AI from advancing. The recent Chinese Deep Seek advancements demonstrate this.  My belief is that eventually whoever controls the alignment of AI will control all within domain of a given AI. I do not like this.  I accept this. I want the “controller” to be the United States of America (and its corporations) rather than China, Russia, etc.  America’s comparative advantage over our foes is our vigorous market economy. In order for us to win, we need to lean on our comparative advantage and unleash capitalism to drive AI innovation and stay ahead of our foes.  Joe Biden‘s administration attempted to limit all United States efforts in this area to just a handful of companies in which they could maneuver and create regulatory capture. They wanted to fight China with Chinese style tactics. We will not beat China using Chinese style tactics. We will not beat China at China’s game. We must play America’s game. The Democrats have demonstrated that they are in opposition to this and as a result, they lost the support of Silicon Valley in the last election.


To sum up, the Democrats are feckless failures and half the Republicans are bought and paid for by the defense industry. Unfortunately, at the present time, the other half of the Republicans are bigoted fucks. It’s a crap situation. I’m making my choices on what is most likely to allow America to persevere, and by extension the notion of democracy to persevere. The freest countries on the face of the Earth are NATO countries and I don’t expect that to change while America is in charge, and that’s what I support.

I do not disagree with any of your concerns, especially in regards to the annual deficit and national debt.

Where are you seeing that net interest outlays are projected to exceed revenue soon? The most recent (March 2024) CBO long-term budget outlook that projects out to 2054 has revenue at 18.8% of GDP and net interest outlays at 6.3% of GDP in 2054.

Pete, I am posting this again because I think it got lost in the discussion of other topics. I am generally curious about where you saw it projected the net interest payments would exceed revenue. I would like to see the assumptions and modeling on this.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18679 on: February 04, 2025, 12:09:18 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live. 


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18680 on: February 04, 2025, 12:59:42 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live.

Then what?

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18681 on: February 04, 2025, 01:06:33 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live.

Then what?
I don't know.  Hard to say. 

Participate in all of the joys and sorrows of life? 


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18682 on: February 04, 2025, 01:07:38 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live.

Then what?

Then literally anything could happen. They could be abused, end up in prison, end up in a dead-end office job with a loving family, or go on to change the world. Even where abortion is legal and widely available, the option isn't going to be exercised 100% of the time so you'll always get unwanted pregnancies that result in birth.

That said, I totally agree that you cannot support restricting abortion without also supporting programs aimed at (1) preventing unwanted pregnancies, and (2) ensuring those kids (and their caregivers) are put in the best position to become and remain productive members of society.

Offline Stupid Fitz

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18683 on: February 04, 2025, 01:26:49 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live.

Then what?

Then literally anything could happen. They could be abused, end up in prison, end up in a dead-end office job with a loving family, or go on to change the world. Even where abortion is legal and widely available, the option isn't going to be exercised 100% of the time so you'll always get unwanted pregnancies that result in birth.

That said, I totally agree that you cannot support restricting abortion without also supporting programs aimed at (1) preventing unwanted pregnancies, and (2) ensuring those kids (and their caregivers) are put in the best position to become and remain productive members of society.

Ah, the fair point that has twisted republicans in knots for ages. Or better known as "eff them kids".

Offline Pete

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18684 on: February 04, 2025, 01:51:01 PM »
I'll also vouch for dlew, good people.

I do struggle with at what point I'll make the decision to be an absolutist about people willing to stand up for civil rights of others. This has nothing to do with dlew per se, as I don't have a clue as to where he stands on this, we've never had a conversation about it. I do feel like as the current administration has made a point to actively attack civil rights, as opposed to the Laissez-Faire approach that all other administrations have taken since LBJ, I may have to take a stand here.

I wonder what the expectation of people like Pete, who has explicitly expressed that civil rights aren't a priority, are for spending time with people who are being targeted by the administration. Like are we supposed to just hang out and eat tapas and have refreshing drinks while the administration actively erases the existence of trans people and black history?

People like Pete? You can be a miserable $!#* sometimes you know that?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18685 on: February 04, 2025, 02:07:54 PM »
I'll also vouch for dlew, good people.

I do struggle with at what point I'll make the decision to be an absolutist about people willing to stand up for civil rights of others. This has nothing to do with dlew per se, as I don't have a clue as to where he stands on this, we've never had a conversation about it. I do feel like as the current administration has made a point to actively attack civil rights, as opposed to the Laissez-Faire approach that all other administrations have taken since LBJ, I may have to take a stand here.

I wonder what the expectation of people like Pete, who has explicitly expressed that civil rights aren't a priority, are for spending time with people who are being targeted by the administration. Like are we supposed to just hang out and eat tapas and have refreshing drinks while the administration actively erases the existence of trans people and black history?

People like Pete? You can be a miserable $!#* sometimes you know that?

I'm legitimately confused by your reaction to this. Did you stop reading that sentence at the word "Pete?" I used your name because you explicitly stated, more than once, and fairly aggressively, that the position that this administration has taken on civil rights, isn't a priority for you. If I'm misinterpreting this, please let me know, I'll retract.

I refuse to wholesale support whatever the democrats come up with anymore. I have done that for 32 years. I am done with it. They have violated my trust. Going forward, I will pick and choose the issues that I support based on my own judgment and not the propaganda of a given party.

I agree that the Democrats don't deserve wholesale support but I also don't think wholesale support (or excusing) of everything Elon Musk says or does is the best alternative.
That’s why I don’t wholesale support everything Elon Musk does. And I also choose to not get bent out of shape by really pussy crap while he’s still achieving gains on the things that really matter.

Yeah I hedged it with "excusing" what you don't wholesale support. What is the "really pussy crap" you're referring to?
A current topical example of this is Trans rights.  This is a hot topic at the moment in our country. I am 100% in full support of trans rights. However, if a trade has to be made, and it means sacrificing trans rights for meaningful progress on one of the other three big issues for me (national debt/economy, defense, AI) then so be it.

I accept that I do not live in a world where I get everything that I want. I also accept that I live in a world where compromises must be made, and that frequently horrible collateral damage occurs even when we make the right decision for the aggregate good . I do not like that and I do not approve of it, but I accept it.

Too many Democrats seem willing to compromise on the most important things in order to achieve an ideological victory that benefits very few relative to the detriments.

A number of you have accused me of being a Trump guy or Rogan guy or (insert whatever right wing name you find offensive) guy. Three things have impacted my political opinions enormously over the last 8 years.

1. The national debt:  Our national debt is very close to the point interest payments will exceed our revenue. This could easily lead to an Argentinian style hyper inflationary mess. This is very very dangerous. Cuts must be made to spending, AND taxes must be increased.  Spending cuts are more effective than taxes, but both are necessary.  I believe the democrats to be too weak to make spending cuts…they are incapable of making tough decisions…too fearful of scorn from very small groups.

2. Risk from international enemies: Russia’s invasion of Ukraine shook me up. For a very long time I personally laughed at the idea that large countries would engage in wars of conquest. I thought that time was behind us as a species. I was wrong. The world is more dangerous than it has ever been. With resources coming under increased contention and changes occurring rapidly to our planet environment, nations are acting more and more out of self interest in very aggressive ways. We need to continue to have a strong defense and take no steps backward and the quality and effectiveness of our defense however, because of our need to cut costs, we need to do this in new ways that cost much less than the legacy defense contractors, the old guard of both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are 100% in bed with legacy defense contractors. The military industrial complex is currently in place though there are some who are making dents in it Elon Musk and other tech leaders have demonstrated that they can produce results and a fraction of the cost of the legacy defense contractors. We need vastly more of this. This is very scary to the legacy defense contractors who have run this country since Eisenhower’s warnings years ago…. The legacy defense contractors will fight this with everything that they have the Democrat Democrats do not have the spine to fight them and the legacy Republicans are bought and paid for by them already. We need new thinking in this area.

3. Risk of AI: I believe that we cannot stop AI from advancing. The recent Chinese Deep Seek advancements demonstrate this.  My belief is that eventually whoever controls the alignment of AI will control all within domain of a given AI. I do not like this.  I accept this. I want the “controller” to be the United States of America (and its corporations) rather than China, Russia, etc.  America’s comparative advantage over our foes is our vigorous market economy. In order for us to win, we need to lean on our comparative advantage and unleash capitalism to drive AI innovation and stay ahead of our foes.  Joe Biden‘s administration attempted to limit all United States efforts in this area to just a handful of companies in which they could maneuver and create regulatory capture. They wanted to fight China with Chinese style tactics. We will not beat China using Chinese style tactics. We will not beat China at China’s game. We must play America’s game. The Democrats have demonstrated that they are in opposition to this and as a result, they lost the support of Silicon Valley in the last election.


To sum up, the Democrats are feckless failures and half the Republicans are bought and paid for by the defense industry. Unfortunately, at the present time, the other half of the Republicans are bigoted fucks. It’s a crap situation. I’m making my choices on what is most likely to allow America to persevere, and by extension the notion of democracy to persevere. The freest countries on the face of the Earth are NATO countries and I don’t expect that to change while America is in charge, and that’s what I support.

When I told you that your first post that I quoted personally hurt and I told you why, you replied with a daxian like whataboutism with an indication that I should just grin and bare it, for some nebulous greater good.
oof pete, this personally hurts, actually. I hope I get to read a retraction/clarification in the next three pages. You have to know that the assault on trans rights is just an entry to more, right? I mean they are literally carrying this out now. You think that the plan is to just remove civil rights for a group of people that comprise less than 1% of the population? The messaging from the white house is that trans rights, rights of minorities, rights of women, rights of those with disabilities are all the same. They aren't just targeting the trans community when they are looking to eliminate all dei programs. When fighting for civil rights you can't just pick winners and losers, that's never how it has worked or will ever work. Most, if not all, of the EOs that mention gender also mention race.
Quote
Federal law allows the Education Department to withhold funds from any school that discriminates based on race or sex. In a strikingly different ideological posture, Trump and his allies argue that lessons about systemic racism amount to discrimination, because they presume certain things about people based on race, such as that White Americans enjoy certain privileges based on their race. And they say that giving rights to transgender students, especially transgender girls and women, discriminates against cisgender girls and women by forcing them to share spaces and sports teams.

How did you feel about Obama when he said that he would not endorse gay marriage and instead only civil unions? 2008 he said he only supported civil unions and it took him until 2012 to change his mind. I remember thinking at the time that that sucked, but admitting to myself that it was probably a smart move to wait to fight that fight later.

I feel like you're wanting me to soft pedal your direct quotes to spare your feelings, while completely dismissing mine. I don't feel like I said anything to merit that response, unless you feel like you don't need to provide clarity on what you said, if that's the case then it is what it is, I guess, but it feels odd to expect the benefit of the doubt when your words, as interpreted, say otherwise.


Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18686 on: February 04, 2025, 02:14:22 PM »
ok so this one has gone off on some tangents, so i'll do my best to bring it back to how it pertains to this thread. Over the last 10 pages or so, I think its fair to say there has been this debate of
"this president of ours is going off the rails (like he promised he would), how could anyone in their right mind have voted for him?" to which the argument in favor has been "well i'm a single issue voter, and getting rid of abortion matters more to me than anything else so i'll take the good with the bad" ok, fair enough. Reasonable minds can disagree blah blah blah we don't need to litigate the right vs wrongness of abortion, it will not sway any hearts or minds, at least not on this board.

So my first question...why did you need to vote for trump to ensure that we don't make america abortion again? Roe was overturned midway through the biden administration. The only way that the anti-choice crowd could lose any gained territory would be if the house and senate codified the right to have an abortion. The dems weren't able to do this even when they had both houses of congress and the presidency, so, lol if you think that was going to happen. The only other way that could happen would be if Dobbs was overturned. This could only happen if enough of the conservative justices retire over the next 4 years and then the dem president would replace them with liberal justices. Do you have any reason to believe that any, let alone several conservative justices will be retiring in the next 4 years? I suppose the other possibility would have been for president kamala to pack the court, which that might be even more lol lmao than thinking congress would codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

You say my argument is lazy, i think your argument is much lazier. your reason for voting for a guy was so that he would guarantee you get something that you already have and are at no risk of losing, at least not in the next 4 years.

This post is getting a bit long so i'll break here before addressing the second part.
Sure.  Harris essentially ran on "codifying Roe."  You don't think she actually would have been able to, which, fine.  Maybe, maybe not. 

But she thought it was realistic enough to make it item number 1 (or 2 or 3) on her platform.  If somebody (anybody) would have told me "don't worry about all this abortion stuff, Kamala is all talk on this thing she focuses on so much, there is no chance anything will change on the federal level," then I'd have certainly considered that.  But that would have run counter to basically her entire campaign of "I am the abortion rights candidate."

correct, that was basically the crux of her platform. She also didn't offer much in the way of how exactly that would be accomplished. Thinking she was going to champion the passing of an act of congress...i mean, be serious. so maybe she'd pack the court? well for starters she made no indication that was her intention, and even if it was, the last time a president tried to pack the court was FDR almost 90 years ago, and it went exactly nowhere. I guess what i'm saying is, if your reason for voting for trump was because you "seriously thought harris was a threat to bring abortion back" then i have a volcano insurance policy to sell you and you would be a gigantic idiot not to purchase it.

But okay, lets set all that stuff aside, what did trump run on? what did pretty much every pub run on? I'll give you a hint the top 2 were the "border crisis" and the "trans issue". none of them ran on abortion, they didn't have to.  I know towards the end of the campaign trump also tacked on tariffs to his platform, and sweet baby jesus i hope you didn't vote for him because of that.

So okay you voted for a guy who promised mass deportations. To round up people who are brown and give them the boot. if they happen to be american citizens well whatever, they can sort that out later. Separate children from their parents and put them in ghettos detention camps and all you know is that your parents or children are "somewhere else"

Issuing executive orders denying the humanity of trans people. A people who are not only a very small portion of the population, but also some of the most at risk, existing on the margins demographics. Denying the civil rights of, well, i mean lets just be real, denying the civil rights of anyone other than cisgender heterosexual white men. Everyone else is getting their crap walked back.

You're pro life...well what about the living? You voted for a man who promised (and so far has delivered!) to be unnecessarily cruel to groups of already marginalized people. Nevermind the women forced to carry to term the pregnancy they didn't want in the first place, with virtually no social programs to support them. (and the social programs that do exist to support them?  Oh don't worry, DOGE will see to it those are at the top of the list to be gutted!)

I get the whole "can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" but trump has straight up promised to break way more eggs than needed to make this omelette.

you voted for a guy who promised to make life (that thing you're in favor of) absolutely miserable for an already powerless demographic of people, thru means of just completely unnecessary cruelty, and you did it in the name of guaranteeing a thing you already had and were at no actual risk of losing.
OK.  I think we agree that: (1) like I said, I'm basically a single issue voter on this; and (2) the "crux" of Harris's campaign was at odds with my single issue.  But you're still confused about why I didn't vote for her, based on the premise of something like "the crux of Harris's campaign was so completely unrealistic that it should have been completely disregarded"? We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that.

Your discussion of immigration, civil rights, the economy, and social programs -- I disagree with Trump strongly on some of those things, but none of those things are my "single issue."  I agree that those things are significant concerns.  But my main concern is the prospect of expanding the legal right to kill innocent humans.  That concern outweighs the other issues for me.  I'm sure you disagree on the phrasing of that, but now we're back to "litigating the rightness or wrongess" of abortion.  Which we can do, but like you said, I'm not sure how fruitful that's going to be.

And to be clear, I do want (and support) robust protections for mothers/parents who have problems caring for their children.  But priority number one for me is let's not allow people to kill them. 

Anyway, I hope I've explained my rationale.  Happy to do what I can to make it clearer if you still have questions.
Anyway, that's my rationale.   

Well I’m glad to know that. I didn’t recall seeing you say much on that aspect on previous posts. I asked you to explain your position, and you have, thank you.

Offline Cire

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18687 on: February 04, 2025, 02:28:17 PM »
You can say you want robust protection for mothers/parents who have problems caring for their children all you want.

But there isn't a single solution offered that incorporates that into laws that restrict healthcare for women.

My older sister lost a child at 29 weeks.  Everything was great until it wasn't.

There was some kind of genetic issue where he started absorbing amniotic fluid to the point that his organs all shut down and she had a dead fetus in her womb.

She ended the pregnancy via abortion because that's the medical term.

There's multiple states with current laws that would not have allowed her to terminate the pregnancy. 

The condition was not super rare.

To make it illegal for her to get care that was needed and likely life saving is not an issue for the current GOP so framing the issue as "I'm against that but I"m for that" is a complete fantasy world. 

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18688 on: February 04, 2025, 02:30:32 PM »

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18689 on: February 04, 2025, 02:33:25 PM »
You can say you want robust protection for mothers/parents who have problems caring for their children all you want.

But there isn't a single solution offered that incorporates that into laws that restrict healthcare for women.

My older sister lost a child at 29 weeks.  Everything was great until it wasn't.

There was some kind of genetic issue where he started absorbing amniotic fluid to the point that his organs all shut down and she had a dead fetus in her womb.

She ended the pregnancy via abortion because that's the medical term.

There's multiple states with current laws that would not have allowed her to terminate the pregnancy. 

The condition was not super rare.

To make it illegal for her to get care that was needed and likely life saving is not an issue for the current GOP so framing the issue as "I'm against that but I"m for that" is a complete fantasy world.
I'm really sorry to hear about your sister.  That's awful.

What states would have made it illegal to terminate the pregnancy under those circumstances?


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Offline Cire

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18690 on: February 04, 2025, 03:17:27 PM »
I'm sorry, his heart was still going because he was hooked up to mom still. 

According to her, most of the south, they would have sent her home with a heartbeat.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18691 on: February 04, 2025, 03:33:20 PM »
I can sort of understand a "no abortions past conception" argument if you also are against birth control. Both terminate humans that otherwise would have existed.

uh.  literally no

yeah, like how far do we go with this? There are going to be a lot of nervous teenage (and adult!!!) males out there that will be pretty nervous if we keep scooting this one back.
I mean.  Do you know how this stuff works? Sperm, egg…that whole thing?

I’m not trying to be condescending, but you do understand the significant difference between a sperm and a fertilized egg, right?

In terms of how much I am supposed to care about it dying? No, I don't really see much difference. Neither has any thoughts, feels any pain, or has any understanding that it exists. Give that fertilized egg a few months to grow, and I start to see the difference. I don't see much difference within the window for a medication abortion, though.

I'm just saying that the stance the Catholic church used to take (maybe still takes?) on contraception is consistent with their stance on abortion. If you believe that God knows us before we are even born, and that is proof that the unborn have just as much value as the born, then it makes logical sense that God also knew all of those children whose pregnancies were prevented.

To be clear, I don't advocate for restrictions on abortion or contraception.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18692 on: February 04, 2025, 04:03:29 PM »
I can sort of understand a "no abortions past conception" argument if you also are against birth control. Both terminate humans that otherwise would have existed.

uh.  literally no

yeah, like how far do we go with this? There are going to be a lot of nervous teenage (and adult!!!) males out there that will be pretty nervous if we keep scooting this one back.
I mean.  Do you know how this stuff works? Sperm, egg…that whole thing?

I’m not trying to be condescending, but you do understand the significant difference between a sperm and a fertilized egg, right?

In terms of how much I am supposed to care about it dying? No, I don't really see much difference. Neither has any thoughts, feels any pain, or has any understanding that it exists. Give that fertilized egg a few months to grow, and I start to see the difference. I don't see much difference within the window for a medication abortion, though.

I'm just saying that the stance the Catholic church used to take (maybe still takes?) on contraception is consistent with their stance on abortion. If you believe that God knows us before we are even born, and that is proof that the unborn have just as much value as the born, then it makes logical sense that God also knew all of those children whose pregnancies were prevented.

To be clear, I don't advocate for restrictions on abortion or contraception.
That's fine.  "Human life" is pretty widely regarded to begin at fertilization though, so that's why the distinction exists between sperm and embryo.

You're also confused on the rationales for the Church's views on contraception and abortion.  I can explain the rationales for each if you're interested, but you've got the contraception rationale really screwed up.  It's not because God knows all of those children whose pregnancies were prevented.  It's something less intense and more confusing -- closer to "sex with contraception is a disordered use of sex.  artificially foreclosing the possibility of life to result from sex (which is the primary reason for sex) is a misuse of the gift." 

I don't expect you to accept that obviously (and I certainly don't support legislating away contraception using that or any other rationale).  But the point is, your suggestion about the Church's rationale being something like "it's bad because God knows the potential humans that may have resulted but for the contraception" isn't something I've ever heard. 

I'm sorry, his heart was still going because he was hooked up to mom still. 

According to her, most of the south, they would have sent her home with a heartbeat.

Well either way, I'm really sorry.  Can't imagine it.


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Offline wetwillie

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18693 on: February 04, 2025, 05:07:36 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live. 

It's legit tough to believe you GAF about the lives of these unwanted children when you respond this way.
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18694 on: February 04, 2025, 05:26:57 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live. 

It's legit tough to believe you GAF about the lives of these unwanted children when you respond this way.

A few pages back JW offered prayers, and to do some community  outreach volunteer work with his church if that helps?

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18695 on: February 04, 2025, 05:31:29 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live. 

It's legit tough to believe you GAF about the lives of these unwanted children when you respond this way.
Maybe I didn't understand the question.  What happens to the "unwanted children" who aren't killed in utero?  I don't know what happens to them beyond their not being killed.  What do you think happens to them?  And how does that possibly justify killing them?  If a mom decides her 2 week old infant isn't for her and decides she's kind of done with it, what happens to that kid?

Again, I suspect our difference is that you don't see the human in the uterus as having any inherent value.  Which, that's certainly a view you can take.  But killing someone because the rest of their life will likely be hard is a pretty bad justification to kill someone.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 05:34:44 PM by DQ12 »


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18696 on: February 04, 2025, 05:37:14 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live. 

It's legit tough to believe you GAF about the lives of these unwanted children when you respond this way.
Maybe I didn't understand the question.  What happens to the "unwanted children" who aren't killed in utero?  I don't know what happens to them beyond their not being killed.  What do you think happens to them?

Your point may be that you don't care about any degree of suffering they might experience as long as they're alive, but I'm assuming it's not.

So I think the premise of the question is--you (through your elected officials) have told women they cannot abort their viable children. Now that the government has effectively caused/forced that birth to happen which otherwise would not have happened, what responsibility should it have to ensure the child is provided for?

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18697 on: February 04, 2025, 05:47:23 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
They would live. 

It's legit tough to believe you GAF about the lives of these unwanted children when you respond this way.
Maybe I didn't understand the question.  What happens to the "unwanted children" who aren't killed in utero?  I don't know what happens to them beyond their not being killed.  What do you think happens to them?

Your point may be that you don't care about any degree of suffering they might experience as long as they're alive, but I'm assuming it's not.

So I think the premise of the question is--you (through your elected officials) have told women they cannot abort their viable children. Now that the government has effectively caused/forced that birth to happen which otherwise would not have happened, what responsibility should it have to ensure the child is provided for?
Sorry, are you asking me to specify a social policy for mother and children?  I’m not sure specifically what you’re looking for.  But as a shorthand, if you’re asking “would I support X reasonable social policy in exchange for restricting abortions except in extremely limited circumstances,” my answer is yes.


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18698 on: February 04, 2025, 05:50:09 PM »
The question is whether you consider them separable.

Is your single issue: (a) government should stop women from getting abortions, or (b) government should stop women from getting abortions and put programs in place for the (thousands? ultimately millions?) of additional children that would inevitably result?

Edit: because I am not aware of a single republican running on the latter platform.

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18699 on: February 04, 2025, 05:57:03 PM »
I’m not conditioning my opposition to abortion on any social policy joining it, no.  If the options were (a) severely restrict abortions with no additional social protections beyond what we have now, or (b) keep everything the status quo, I’d choose A.

But I’d prefer a scenario where broad additional support existed for mothers/families who needed it.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]