Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 1309958 times)

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18650 on: February 04, 2025, 07:27:22 AM »
I can sort of understand a "no abortions past conception" argument if you also are against birth control. Both terminate humans that otherwise would have existed.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18651 on: February 04, 2025, 07:41:58 AM »
What  does the American consumer really need that can’t be produced and supplied domestically? I’m talking wants not needs.

I mean, I’m pretty sure I’m against tariffs on principle, but if they work as intended, why is that a problem for Americans?

Let foreign goods become what they have always been historically; luxuries. Want something foreign and exotic, you’ll probably pay more.

I don’t see how more stuff made in the US, by US workers and companies is bad for US citizens.

I don’t see a problem with saying “we don’t need your stuff. We’ve got our own.”

Well, stuff made in the US, by US workers and companies will be a lot more expensive and we will need a lot more factory workers which we don't have in the labor force so we will need immigration and a lot of people losing their jobs and finding a new one that probably pays less at the same time as costs of basic items will be going up. 

If this was like a world war or the end times it would be worth completely re-tooling the economy, if there was a coherent and concerted effort to pivot toward some strategic industries like alternative energy, more domestic food production, more domestic steel production, more domestic computer chip foundries etc. that would maybe be worth it too.

But that isn't the plan and if this becomes the path pursued, costs for the average American at the pump and the grocery store are about to skyrocket.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18652 on: February 04, 2025, 08:01:30 AM »
I can sort of understand a "no abortions past conception" argument if you also are against birth control. Both terminate humans that otherwise would have existed.

uh.  literally no

Offline Stupid Fitz

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18653 on: February 04, 2025, 08:19:39 AM »
I can sort of understand a "no abortions past conception" argument if you also are against birth control. Both terminate humans that otherwise would have existed.

uh.  literally no

yeah, like how far do we go with this? There are going to be a lot of nervous teenage (and adult!!!) males out there that will be pretty nervous if we keep scooting this one back.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18654 on: February 04, 2025, 08:37:05 AM »
I can sort of understand a "no abortions past conception" argument if you also are against birth control. Both terminate humans that otherwise would have existed.

uh.  literally no

yeah, like how far do we go with this? There are going to be a lot of nervous teenage (and adult!!!) males out there that will be pretty nervous if we keep scooting this one back.
I mean.  Do you know how this stuff works? Sperm, egg…that whole thing?

I’m not trying to be condescending, but you do understand the significant difference between a sperm and a fertilized egg, right?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 08:42:22 AM by DQ12 »


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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18655 on: February 04, 2025, 09:10:33 AM »
yeah i've never seen anyone argue that life begins before conception.
I have, however, seen a lot of resistance (from the catholic church, et al) to allowing the use of birth control, presumably on moral grounds. what's the argument there?

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18656 on: February 04, 2025, 09:12:34 AM »
Man getting in the way of God's will
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18657 on: February 04, 2025, 09:14:48 AM »
We need a separate abortion thread. The topic is especially tedious because every discussion within it has already happened a billion times before.

Offline CNS

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18658 on: February 04, 2025, 09:23:14 AM »
It is unique in that it shows perceived cruelty to both sides. These guys think pro choice is murder and therefore cruel.

I believe forcing an entire population to take on religious beliefs on any religion is cruel and that it is cruel to force the shitty conditions on the population that such a prolife stance creates.

The difference being that one of these is based in reality and the other in the tooth fairy’s boss’ say so.

Offline Stupid Fitz

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18659 on: February 04, 2025, 09:25:26 AM »
Agree with Chum.

Yes, I know I was being ridiculous but the point being that it is a moving target based on a person's beliefs (which is totally cool). However, lots of people out there want to keep moving this argument back in order to ban contraception altogether which I am totally against.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18660 on: February 04, 2025, 09:25:42 AM »
I am sad I missed the abortion/religion discussion over the weekend. I'm obviously left of the democratic party, but I don't care about abortion, at all. I would vote for a pro life candidate. Of course that pro life candidate would have to support exceptions with regard to the health of the mother and for rape victims. This candidate would also have to vehemently support all programs to make sure the mother and the child were supported from birth to adulthood. Socialized health care, or at a minimum medicaid until adulthood, expanded wic and food stamp programs, fully funded public schools, etc. Of course this candidate does not exist in either party, although I firmly believe most people support these policies.

Well you see MiR therein lies the difference between pro-lifers - who are virtually non-existent, and pro-birthers. Which is more like what DQ and JW are, in practice.
Man, you don’t know me.

You’re right, I don’t know you, and it sounds like both you and I are better off for that because it doesn’t seem like we would see eye to eye on many things (unless we happen to be the same height). I’d bet dollars to donuts there are myriad things you do in your personal private life that I would take exception to, and I suppose one of the biggest differences between us is that when it comes to the things you do in your private life that are none of my god damn business and don’t affect my life in any kind of way…I don’t feel the need to make it my single issue top priority to legislate what you can or cannot do even though I have absolutely no standing in the matter whatsoever and (i repeat) it’s absolutely none of my rough ridin' business
“Why do you care about this thing you perceive to be profoundly unjust? It’s none of your business!”

That’s never been very convincing to me.  I think it works better for some issues where nobody is really being harmed (eg gay marriage), but it doesn’t translate very well to say “it’s none of your business” when the thing I’m concerned about is innocent humans being killed unjustifiably. 

It’s kind of funny.  The other day Pete was like “if you believed that, you’d be out firebombing!” And now BAC is like “it shouldn’t even concern you.”  Which is it?! Should I join get French Resistance or mind my own damn business?!

Like I said several pages ago, we disagree on the value of the human (or “thing” if you prefer) being killed (or “terminated”).  And like I said, reasonable minds can disagree on that.

But the “you’re not pro life you’re pro birth!” and “it’s none of your business” stuff trotted out by you in these last two posts is really weak.  If you’re going to derisively accuse me of being a “pro-birther,” you should come with better arguments.

ok so this one has gone off on some tangents, so i'll do my best to bring it back to how it pertains to this thread. Over the last 10 pages or so, I think its fair to say there has been this debate of
"this president of ours is going off the rails (like he promised he would), how could anyone in their right mind have voted for him?" to which the argument in favor has been "well i'm a single issue voter, and getting rid of abortion matters more to me than anything else so i'll take the good with the bad" ok, fair enough. Reasonable minds can disagree blah blah blah we don't need to litigate the right vs wrongness of abortion, it will not sway any hearts or minds, at least not on this board.

So my first question...why did you need to vote for trump to ensure that we don't make america abortion again? Roe was overturned midway through the biden administration. The only way that the anti-choice crowd could lose any gained territory would be if the house and senate codified the right to have an abortion. The dems weren't able to do this even when they had both houses of congress and the presidency, so, lol if you think that was going to happen. The only other way that could happen would be if Dobbs was overturned. This could only happen if enough of the conservative justices retire over the next 4 years and then the dem president would replace them with liberal justices. Do you have any reason to believe that any, let alone several conservative justices will be retiring in the next 4 years? I suppose the other possibility would have been for president kamala to pack the court, which that might be even more lol lmao than thinking congress would codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

You say my argument is lazy, i think your argument is much lazier. your reason for voting for a guy was so that he would guarantee you get something that you already have and are at no risk of losing, at least not in the next 4 years.

This post is getting a bit long so i'll break here before addressing the second part.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18661 on: February 04, 2025, 09:35:08 AM »
ok so this one has gone off on some tangents, so i'll do my best to bring it back to how it pertains to this thread. Over the last 10 pages or so, I think its fair to say there has been this debate of
"this president of ours is going off the rails (like he promised he would), how could anyone in their right mind have voted for him?" to which the argument in favor has been "well i'm a single issue voter, and getting rid of abortion matters more to me than anything else so i'll take the good with the bad" ok, fair enough. Reasonable minds can disagree blah blah blah we don't need to litigate the right vs wrongness of abortion, it will not sway any hearts or minds, at least not on this board.

So my first question...why did you need to vote for trump to ensure that we don't make america abortion again? Roe was overturned midway through the biden administration. The only way that the anti-choice crowd could lose any gained territory would be if the house and senate codified the right to have an abortion. The dems weren't able to do this even when they had both houses of congress and the presidency, so, lol if you think that was going to happen. The only other way that could happen would be if Dobbs was overturned. This could only happen if enough of the conservative justices retire over the next 4 years and then the dem president would replace them with liberal justices. Do you have any reason to believe that any, let alone several conservative justices will be retiring in the next 4 years? I suppose the other possibility would have been for president kamala to pack the court, which that might be even more lol lmao than thinking congress would codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

You say my argument is lazy, i think your argument is much lazier. your reason for voting for a guy was so that he would guarantee you get something that you already have and are at no risk of losing, at least not in the next 4 years.

This post is getting a bit long so i'll break here before addressing the second part.
Sure.  Harris essentially ran on "codifying Roe."  You don't think she actually would have been able to, which, fine.  Maybe, maybe not. 

But she thought it was realistic enough to make it item number 1 (or 2 or 3) on her platform.  If somebody (anybody) would have told me "don't worry about all this abortion stuff, Kamala is all talk on this thing she focuses on so much, there is no chance anything will change on the federal level," then I'd have certainly considered that.  But that would have run counter to basically her entire campaign of "I am the abortion rights candidate."
« Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 09:38:58 AM by DQ12 »


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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18662 on: February 04, 2025, 09:41:51 AM »
yeah i've never seen anyone argue that life begins before conception.
I have, however, seen a lot of resistance (from the catholic church, et al) to allowing the use of birth control, presumably on moral grounds. what's the argument there?
Most Catholics would probably say the church’s stance against birth control is because it is an attempt to artificially separate sex from procreation, which is not what God intended.

Skeptics will say it’s because Catholics (along with plenty other religions with deep roots) have a particular fascination with people’s private sex lives even of married couples.

And as a total guess (but an educated one) I’ll bet if you dug in to the history behind the church’s opposition to birth control you’d find its origin is even more arbitrary than either of the above.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18663 on: February 04, 2025, 10:40:07 AM »
Based on the protests one could reasonably conclude that we have a lot of foreign ultra-natiionalists living in the United States.

I thought #blueanon hate hate hated ultra-nationalists (unless it's the ultra-nationalists that #blueanon-neocon wants to use to kill other people)




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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18664 on: February 04, 2025, 10:41:22 AM »
Based on the protests one could reasonably conclude that we have a lot of foreign ultra-natiionalists living in the United States.

I thought #blueanon hate hate hated ultra-nationalists (unless it's the ultra-nationalists that #blueanon-neocon wants to use to kill other people)

interesting if true

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18665 on: February 04, 2025, 10:53:56 AM »
ok so this one has gone off on some tangents, so i'll do my best to bring it back to how it pertains to this thread. Over the last 10 pages or so, I think its fair to say there has been this debate of
"this president of ours is going off the rails (like he promised he would), how could anyone in their right mind have voted for him?" to which the argument in favor has been "well i'm a single issue voter, and getting rid of abortion matters more to me than anything else so i'll take the good with the bad" ok, fair enough. Reasonable minds can disagree blah blah blah we don't need to litigate the right vs wrongness of abortion, it will not sway any hearts or minds, at least not on this board.

So my first question...why did you need to vote for trump to ensure that we don't make america abortion again? Roe was overturned midway through the biden administration. The only way that the anti-choice crowd could lose any gained territory would be if the house and senate codified the right to have an abortion. The dems weren't able to do this even when they had both houses of congress and the presidency, so, lol if you think that was going to happen. The only other way that could happen would be if Dobbs was overturned. This could only happen if enough of the conservative justices retire over the next 4 years and then the dem president would replace them with liberal justices. Do you have any reason to believe that any, let alone several conservative justices will be retiring in the next 4 years? I suppose the other possibility would have been for president kamala to pack the court, which that might be even more lol lmao than thinking congress would codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

You say my argument is lazy, i think your argument is much lazier. your reason for voting for a guy was so that he would guarantee you get something that you already have and are at no risk of losing, at least not in the next 4 years.

This post is getting a bit long so i'll break here before addressing the second part.
Sure.  Harris essentially ran on "codifying Roe."  You don't think she actually would have been able to, which, fine.  Maybe, maybe not. 

But she thought it was realistic enough to make it item number 1 (or 2 or 3) on her platform.  If somebody (anybody) would have told me "don't worry about all this abortion stuff, Kamala is all talk on this thing she focuses on so much, there is no chance anything will change on the federal level," then I'd have certainly considered that.  But that would have run counter to basically her entire campaign of "I am the abortion rights candidate."

correct, that was basically the crux of her platform. She also didn't offer much in the way of how exactly that would be accomplished. Thinking she was going to champion the passing of an act of congress...i mean, be serious. so maybe she'd pack the court? well for starters she made no indication that was her intention, and even if it was, the last time a president tried to pack the court was FDR almost 90 years ago, and it went exactly nowhere. I guess what i'm saying is, if your reason for voting for trump was because you "seriously thought harris was a threat to bring abortion back" then i have a volcano insurance policy to sell you and you would be a gigantic idiot not to purchase it.

But okay, lets set all that stuff aside, what did trump run on? what did pretty much every pub run on? I'll give you a hint the top 2 were the "border crisis" and the "trans issue". none of them ran on abortion, they didn't have to.  I know towards the end of the campaign trump also tacked on tariffs to his platform, and sweet baby jesus i hope you didn't vote for him because of that.

So okay you voted for a guy who promised mass deportations. To round up people who are brown and give them the boot. if they happen to be american citizens well whatever, they can sort that out later. Separate children from their parents and put them in ghettos detention camps and all you know is that your parents or children are "somewhere else"

Issuing executive orders denying the humanity of trans people. A people who are not only a very small portion of the population, but also some of the most at risk, existing on the margins demographics. Denying the civil rights of, well, i mean lets just be real, denying the civil rights of anyone other than cisgender heterosexual white men. Everyone else is getting their crap walked back.

You're pro life...well what about the living? You voted for a man who promised (and so far has delivered!) to be unnecessarily cruel to groups of already marginalized people. Nevermind the women forced to carry to term the pregnancy they didn't want in the first place, with virtually no social programs to support them. (and the social programs that do exist to support them?  Oh don't worry, DOGE will see to it those are at the top of the list to be gutted!)

I get the whole "can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" but trump has straight up promised to break way more eggs than needed to make this omelette.

you voted for a guy who promised to make life (that thing you're in favor of) absolutely miserable for an already powerless demographic of people, thru means of just completely unnecessary cruelty, and you did it in the name of guaranteeing a thing you already had and were at no actual risk of losing.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18666 on: February 04, 2025, 10:58:20 AM »
This has long been understood about USAID (and NED) . . . and once upon time real Democrats would have lost their mind about these agencies. Just like they lost their mind about the CIA, FBI, NSA and others.

But the democrats have yielded to #blueanon and #blueanon at its core are Stasi-Gestapo control freak neocons.  It's been a fascinating follow as this has evolved.

The saddest part is, the CIA/DOD et. al. have used cover entities for decades to do their bidding, and the Dems of old understood that, and called it out. Now, for #blueanon, it's all just a conspiracy theory . . . the constant refrain when #blueanon doesn't want to be investigated or audited.  The other side of the coin is the far less intelligent #blueanon's - who simply regurgitate and parrot what they're told to say (these legions number in the millions).  I can't imagine the phone conversations that were occurring between the spooks (that's intelligence) - grifting NGO's - and their congressional facilitators yesterday. 

"They have basically evolved into an agency that believes that they’re not even a U.S. government agency, that they are out — they’re a global charity, that they take the taxpayer money, and they spend it as a global charity irrespective of whether it is in the national interest or not in the national interest." . . . SOS Rubio

All the hail the Mother State!! Unless we're not in charge . . . #blueanon






Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18667 on: February 04, 2025, 10:59:27 AM »
and DQ i know it doesn't seem like it, but this is not me making a personal attack on you. Obviously there were millions of people who voted for this man, and your vote didn't count for any more than everyone elses. Many of those people are woefully ignorant, but i know that is not the case with you and i know you are a thoughtful person. I've never met you, but i believe everyone who says you're a great guy and i'm sure you are.

But when you decide to take up the banner of "i voted for him because i believe in the life of the unborn child" then I'm going ask you to explain yourself and i'm going to tell you why i feel the way i feel. I would have said the same to anyone else assuming that position and standing up to be counted.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18668 on: February 04, 2025, 11:36:18 AM »
ok so this one has gone off on some tangents, so i'll do my best to bring it back to how it pertains to this thread. Over the last 10 pages or so, I think its fair to say there has been this debate of
"this president of ours is going off the rails (like he promised he would), how could anyone in their right mind have voted for him?" to which the argument in favor has been "well i'm a single issue voter, and getting rid of abortion matters more to me than anything else so i'll take the good with the bad" ok, fair enough. Reasonable minds can disagree blah blah blah we don't need to litigate the right vs wrongness of abortion, it will not sway any hearts or minds, at least not on this board.

So my first question...why did you need to vote for trump to ensure that we don't make america abortion again? Roe was overturned midway through the biden administration. The only way that the anti-choice crowd could lose any gained territory would be if the house and senate codified the right to have an abortion. The dems weren't able to do this even when they had both houses of congress and the presidency, so, lol if you think that was going to happen. The only other way that could happen would be if Dobbs was overturned. This could only happen if enough of the conservative justices retire over the next 4 years and then the dem president would replace them with liberal justices. Do you have any reason to believe that any, let alone several conservative justices will be retiring in the next 4 years? I suppose the other possibility would have been for president kamala to pack the court, which that might be even more lol lmao than thinking congress would codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

You say my argument is lazy, i think your argument is much lazier. your reason for voting for a guy was so that he would guarantee you get something that you already have and are at no risk of losing, at least not in the next 4 years.

This post is getting a bit long so i'll break here before addressing the second part.
Sure.  Harris essentially ran on "codifying Roe."  You don't think she actually would have been able to, which, fine.  Maybe, maybe not. 

But she thought it was realistic enough to make it item number 1 (or 2 or 3) on her platform.  If somebody (anybody) would have told me "don't worry about all this abortion stuff, Kamala is all talk on this thing she focuses on so much, there is no chance anything will change on the federal level," then I'd have certainly considered that.  But that would have run counter to basically her entire campaign of "I am the abortion rights candidate."

correct, that was basically the crux of her platform. She also didn't offer much in the way of how exactly that would be accomplished. Thinking she was going to champion the passing of an act of congress...i mean, be serious. so maybe she'd pack the court? well for starters she made no indication that was her intention, and even if it was, the last time a president tried to pack the court was FDR almost 90 years ago, and it went exactly nowhere. I guess what i'm saying is, if your reason for voting for trump was because you "seriously thought harris was a threat to bring abortion back" then i have a volcano insurance policy to sell you and you would be a gigantic idiot not to purchase it.

But okay, lets set all that stuff aside, what did trump run on? what did pretty much every pub run on? I'll give you a hint the top 2 were the "border crisis" and the "trans issue". none of them ran on abortion, they didn't have to.  I know towards the end of the campaign trump also tacked on tariffs to his platform, and sweet baby jesus i hope you didn't vote for him because of that.

So okay you voted for a guy who promised mass deportations. To round up people who are brown and give them the boot. if they happen to be american citizens well whatever, they can sort that out later. Separate children from their parents and put them in ghettos detention camps and all you know is that your parents or children are "somewhere else"

Issuing executive orders denying the humanity of trans people. A people who are not only a very small portion of the population, but also some of the most at risk, existing on the margins demographics. Denying the civil rights of, well, i mean lets just be real, denying the civil rights of anyone other than cisgender heterosexual white men. Everyone else is getting their crap walked back.

You're pro life...well what about the living? You voted for a man who promised (and so far has delivered!) to be unnecessarily cruel to groups of already marginalized people. Nevermind the women forced to carry to term the pregnancy they didn't want in the first place, with virtually no social programs to support them. (and the social programs that do exist to support them?  Oh don't worry, DOGE will see to it those are at the top of the list to be gutted!)

I get the whole "can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs" but trump has straight up promised to break way more eggs than needed to make this omelette.

you voted for a guy who promised to make life (that thing you're in favor of) absolutely miserable for an already powerless demographic of people, thru means of just completely unnecessary cruelty, and you did it in the name of guaranteeing a thing you already had and were at no actual risk of losing.
OK.  I think we agree that: (1) like I said, I'm basically a single issue voter on this; and (2) the "crux" of Harris's campaign was at odds with my single issue.  But you're still confused about why I didn't vote for her, based on the premise of something like "the crux of Harris's campaign was so completely unrealistic that it should have been completely disregarded"? We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on that.

Your discussion of immigration, civil rights, the economy, and social programs -- I disagree with Trump strongly on some of those things, but none of those things are my "single issue."  I agree that those things are significant concerns.  But my main concern is the prospect of expanding the legal right to kill innocent humans.  That concern outweighs the other issues for me.  I'm sure you disagree on the phrasing of that, but now we're back to "litigating the rightness or wrongess" of abortion.  Which we can do, but like you said, I'm not sure how fruitful that's going to be.

And to be clear, I do want (and support) robust protections for mothers/parents who have problems caring for their children.  But priority number one for me is let's not allow people to kill them. 

Anyway, I hope I've explained my rationale.  Happy to do what I can to make it clearer if you still have questions.
Anyway, that's my rationale.   


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Offline wetwillie

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18669 on: February 04, 2025, 11:46:09 AM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18670 on: February 04, 2025, 11:51:09 AM »
I too would love to see the number of abortions drop to the minimum possible number, but there are things I am not willing to accept for that to happen.  The ends do not justify the means for me on this issue.

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18671 on: February 04, 2025, 12:01:06 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18672 on: February 04, 2025, 12:02:09 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

that seems awfully cruel

Offline wetwillie

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18673 on: February 04, 2025, 12:02:41 PM »
Dlew do you think demand for abortion is going to go down if abortion was illegal in all forms in all states?

If abortion was illegal in all states, including medical abortions, the number of abortions performed would go down, in my opinion.

What would happen to the children of the delta in unwanted pregnancies that don't result in abortion?
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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #18674 on: February 04, 2025, 12:03:09 PM »
I am sad I missed the abortion/religion discussion over the weekend. I'm obviously left of the democratic party, but I don't care about abortion, at all. I would vote for a pro life candidate. Of course that pro life candidate would have to support exceptions with regard to the health of the mother and for rape victims. This candidate would also have to vehemently support all programs to make sure the mother and the child were supported from birth to adulthood. Socialized health care, or at a minimum medicaid until adulthood, expanded wic and food stamp programs, fully funded public schools, etc. Of course this candidate does not exist in either party, although I firmly believe most people support these policies.

Well you see MiR therein lies the difference between pro-lifers - who are virtually non-existent, and pro-birthers. Which is more like what DQ and JW are, in practice.

How do you know what I think on all issues?

How do you know what the church I am a part of does for prospective mothers and their children?