Poll

should the united states tax unrealized capital gains?

yes
6 (22.2%)
no
21 (77.8%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: June 23, 2021, 03:21:13 PM

Author Topic: tax poll  (Read 5151 times)

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Offline sys

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tax poll
« on: June 21, 2021, 03:21:13 PM »
didn't want to make it too exotic with all sorts of options.  so if you only want to tax unrealized gains for the utra-rich just answer yes and if you don't want to tax unrealized gains, but you want to disincentivize portfolio loans and end the step up in basis for heirs, just answer no, etc.


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Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2021, 03:39:41 PM »
This is a foreign concept to me, but I don't see why it couldn't work.

Like, I'm open to the idea no one needs to have more than x million dollars. And I don't really care how that is accomplished.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2021, 03:50:48 PM »
I voted no. I would support a wealth tax, though, so I'm not entirely sure if I should have voted no.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2021, 04:01:38 PM »
I voted no. I would support a wealth tax, though, so I'm not entirely sure if I should have voted no.

you should not have voted no.


could someone who is inclined to vote no please vote yes to correct rage's vote?
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Offline MadCat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2021, 04:07:52 PM »
I think taxing unrealized gains would be a pretty big barrier to entering the world of investments for the non-wealthy.  The government already puts annual deposit limits on tax-advantaged accounts like traditional and Roth IRAs.  :shakesfist:

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 04:28:05 PM »
I think taxing unrealized gains would be a pretty big barrier to entering the world of investments for the non-wealthy.  The government already puts annual deposit limits on tax-advantaged accounts like traditional and Roth IRAs.  :shakesfist:

It wouldn't have to apply to everyone.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 04:28:17 PM »
I guess I have to ask why this question is posed as a zero sum proposal. Even basic income has variance on what's taxable and what's not. I don't think Nana dropping $500 on Daimler-Chrysler is the same as some CEO taking a $56 million annual salary in stock options that can't be taxed but leveraged into no interest or low interest loans to purchase consumer goods.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 04:36:30 PM »
I guess I have to ask why this question is posed as a zero sum proposal.

because i didn't want to make 20 different options trying to account for every single poster's preferred tax policy.


afaik, right now we don't tax unrealized gains for any asset, at all, on the federal level.  i tried to make clear with my initial comment that if you want to preserve that distinction you should vote no, regardless of whatever other reforms you might like to enact instead and if you would favor making unrealized capital gains taxable in any way, even if it's just one asset class and only for the richest person in the country, you should vote yes.
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Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2021, 04:38:45 PM »
btw, i'm definitely not a tax expert, but i'd be really surprised if the value of grants of stock options aren't taxed as ordinary income.
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Offline MadCat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2021, 04:45:56 PM »
I think taxing unrealized gains would be a pretty big barrier to entering the world of investments for the non-wealthy.  The government already puts annual deposit limits on tax-advantaged accounts like traditional and Roth IRAs.  :shakesfist:

It wouldn't have to apply to everyone.

Would you apply it based on net worth?  That seems to make the most sense to me, but is that easy to conceal?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2021, 05:03:03 PM »
I guess I have to ask why this question is posed as a zero sum proposal.

because i didn't want to make 20 different options trying to account for every single poster's preferred tax policy.


afaik, right now we don't tax unrealized gains for any asset, at all, on the federal level.  i tried to make clear with my initial comment that if you want to preserve that distinction you should vote no, regardless of whatever other reforms you might like to enact instead and if you would favor making unrealized capital gains taxable in any way, even if it's just one asset class and only for the richest person in the country, you should vote yes.

Well, there's the lone yes vote.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2021, 05:39:42 PM »
Well, there's the lone yes vote.

someone should have voted yes for rage too.  people suck at following instructions.
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Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2021, 06:55:55 PM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.
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Offline star seed 7

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2021, 06:59:56 PM »
I have no rough ridin' clue so I voted yes to help sys out
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Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2021, 07:09:55 PM »
I have no rough ridin' clue so I voted yes to help sys out

thanks, seven.
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Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2021, 07:13:09 PM »
Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

i think that is called the wealth effect among normal people; seems like appropriate nomenclature for the very rich as well.
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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2021, 11:27:22 PM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.

Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

For most people yes. However, some get credit extended based on unrealized gains, that's very tangible.

Offline DQ12

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2021, 08:19:48 AM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.

Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

For most people yes. However, some get credit extended based on unrealized gains, that's very tangible.
Do those credit extensions based on unrealized gains get taxed?  Probably a dumb question and probably “no” - but it seems like that loophole ought to be shut.


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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2021, 08:29:27 AM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.

Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

For most people yes. However, some get credit extended based on unrealized gains, that's very tangible.
Do those credit extensions based on unrealized gains get taxed?  Probably a dumb question and probably “no” - but it seems like that loophole ought to be shut.
Building consensus.

Offline Woogy

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2021, 09:33:55 AM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.

Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

I think - not at all sure though - that this is the intent of the state enabled local intangibles tax in Kansas and other states.   :dunno:

Offline DQ12

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2021, 09:48:26 AM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.

Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

For most people yes. However, some get credit extended based on unrealized gains, that's very tangible.
Do those credit extensions based on unrealized gains get taxed?  Probably a dumb question and probably “no” - but it seems like that loophole ought to be shut.
Building consensus.
Wow - DQ and Tortuga, what a force agreeing on some political idea.


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2021, 10:29:08 AM »
Taxing unrealized gains seems really non material in the sense I'm not sure what is happening.

i don't follow.

Unrealized gains implies you have not consumed or altered your lifestyle due to the wealth (what other people value in what you own). So in a sense it doesn't exist to you yet obviously it allows a lot to happen.

For most people yes. However, some get credit extended based on unrealized gains, that's very tangible.
Do those credit extensions based on unrealized gains get taxed?  Probably a dumb question and probably “no” - but it seems like that loophole ought to be shut.

A definitive NO

Offline michigancat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2021, 11:28:15 AM »
would unrealized losses be credited?

Online catastrophe

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2021, 12:01:12 PM »
A wealth tax can be just that: a tax on wealth. It doesn’t need to be considered a tax on gains or losses, but simply: was your average net worth over the past year above $200 ($500?) million? If yes, you get an over the top tax based on whatever the number was above the threshold.

Repeat year after year, even if you’re technically taxing the same dollars. That’s it.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2021, 03:58:25 PM »
would unrealized losses be credited?

yes, of course.  but i would guess probably not refundable.
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