Poll

should the united states tax unrealized capital gains?

yes
6 (22.2%)
no
21 (77.8%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Voting closed: June 23, 2021, 03:21:13 PM

Author Topic: tax poll  (Read 1225 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2021, 05:34:08 PM »
dunno but I'm 100% certain it could be figured out by people who have studied tax policy.

hard to take very seriously the claim that this is not only possible, but common and a problem when no one can provide evidence that it exists.

Did you quote the wrong post? Are you referring to the claim that rich people hide income to avoid taxes? I haven't claimed anything beyond that, and you can't possibly be saying that is a problem that we don't know of its existence. Also I never said this was common. There are 100,000,000 tax payers in America and presumably the impetus of this thread was an article about 25 of those hundred million.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2021, 06:30:15 PM »
dunno but I'm 100% certain it could be figured out by people who have studied tax policy.

hard to take very seriously the claim that this is not only possible, but common and a problem when no one can provide evidence that it exists.

Did you quote the wrong post? Are you referring to the claim that rich people hide income to avoid taxes? I haven't claimed anything beyond that, and you can't possibly be saying that is a problem that we don't know of its existence. Also I never said this was common. There are 100,000,000 tax payers in America and presumably the impetus of this thread was an article about 25 of those hundred million.

yeah, i don't think there's a secret tax code that only billionaires know how to order off of.  every time i hear of one, when i look into it there's nothing there.  the grand tax dodge is either giving all your money away before it's taxed or deferring your income for as long as possible or some very boring thing that everyone knows about.

maybe the secret billionaire tax code exists, but i'd like someone who believes in it to track it down and point it out to me because i've looked a little bit and i can't find it.

i mean there are very definitely things in the tax code that advantage the very rich, but it's stuff that's right out in the open like depreciating real estate when real estate actually appreciates in value, taxing dividends at half the rate of ordinary income and crap like that.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline michigancat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2021, 07:22:16 PM »
Yeah they get a lot of incentives that require a lot of wealth to take advantage of. I think when someone calls for closing loopholes or whatever that's what they're generally referring to

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2021, 09:37:48 PM »
Yeah they get a lot of incentives that require a lot of wealth to take advantage of. I think when someone calls for closing loopholes or whatever that's what they're generally referring to

This and I thought that was obvious. No one said anything about a secret tax code, just that the more money you have the easier it is to find loopholes. TIL this wasn't rudimentary tax code knowledge.

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2021, 09:47:29 PM »
No one is going to be like, "oh, I guess what I was thinking was a loophole isn't really a loophole. So, I'm reversing my prior view and now think it's great for Warren Buffett to pay a lower tax rate than his secretary."

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2021, 10:23:34 PM »
No one is going to be like, "oh, I guess what I was thinking was a loophole isn't really a loophole. So, I'm reversing my prior view and now think it's great for Warren Buffett to pay a lower tax rate than his secretary."

i'm aware of this anecdote, but i don't know the specifics of buffett's income in that year.

regardless, the main reason buffett doesn't pay massive amounts of taxes are 1 (and about 99% of it).  he doesn't realize most of his potential income in any given year, and 2 (and like 1% of it).  most of his realized income is presumably capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income.

so i would not characterize that difference as a loophole.  the capital gains and ordinary income rates are headline items.  like among the top 3 or 4 most salient features of the tax code.  calling it a loophole when it's been a featured point of our tax code for as long as i can recall doesn't make much sense to me.  hell, i can remember board socialist kat kid defending that feature in a previous tax discussion when i was advocating for higher rates on capital gains.

more to the point.  the discussion mir and i were having was touched off by a disagreement as to whether taxes were being deferred or avoided.  in the case of buffett, they are very clearly being deferred (i believe he's stated that his plan is to eventually avoid most of those deferred taxes by giving away all his money, which debate if charitable deductions makes sense as tax policy all you want, but as a super clever and nefarious scheme to not pay taxes, giving all your money away just doesn't impress me much)
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2021, 10:32:07 PM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Online catastrophe

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2021, 11:56:34 PM »
Personally I support generally higher taxes on the medium rich to rich, and a wealth tax on the super rich. I think it’s silly to act like the focus should be on a system that treats everyone the same (e.g., making sure we’ve closed all income tax loop holes for the super rich).

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2021, 06:51:25 AM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.
I think it is both true that the absolute rates on middle class should be higher and that when you have billions of dollars you can be made to pay specific taxes meant to reduce your wealth.

I know you keep saying “give away” but lots and lots of rich people just use this to effectively advance their political goals, so let’s cut the bullshit.
@bentren

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2021, 07:41:47 AM »
No one is going to be like, "oh, I guess what I was thinking was a loophole isn't really a loophole. So, I'm reversing my prior view and now think it's great for Warren Buffett to pay a lower tax rate than his secretary."

i'm aware of this anecdote, but i don't know the specifics of buffett's income in that year.

regardless, the main reason buffett doesn't pay massive amounts of taxes are 1 (and about 99% of it).  he doesn't realize most of his potential income in any given year, and 2 (and like 1% of it).  most of his realized income is presumably capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income.

so i would not characterize that difference as a loophole.  the capital gains and ordinary income rates are headline items.  like among the top 3 or 4 most salient features of the tax code.  calling it a loophole when it's been a featured point of our tax code for as long as i can recall doesn't make much sense to me.  hell, i can remember board socialist kat kid defending that feature in a previous tax discussion when i was advocating for higher rates on capital gains.

more to the point.  the discussion mir and i were having was touched off by a disagreement as to whether taxes were being deferred or avoided.  in the case of buffett, they are very clearly being deferred (i believe he's stated that his plan is to eventually avoid most of those deferred taxes by giving away all his money, which debate if charitable deductions makes sense as tax policy all you want, but as a super clever and nefarious scheme to not pay taxes, giving all your money away just doesn't impress me much)
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.

I really think that, on a simple level, the ordinary person understands that people with higher than ordinary net worth do not pay a significantly higher than ordinary percentage of net worth in taxes. Many people think they should. That's a legit view. I think it's the sentiment Buffett captured in his example.

Offline kim carnes

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2021, 02:26:53 PM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.

Business owners have by far the most opportunities to avoid taxes.  High W2 earners get shafted tax wise.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2021, 03:06:58 PM »
I know you keep saying “give away” but lots and lots of rich people just use this to effectively advance their political goals, so let’s cut the bullshit.

either way you don't have the money anymore and your kids hate you.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2021, 06:11:05 PM »
I know you keep saying “give away” but lots and lots of rich people just use this to effectively advance their political goals, so let’s cut the bullshit.

either way you don't have the money anymore and your kids hate you.
I think something like the Mercatus Center or Heritage Foundation has positive ROI
@bentren

Offline Spracne

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2021, 06:17:56 PM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.

Business owners have by far the most opportunities to avoid taxes.  High W2 earners get shafted tax wise.

You're welcome, America.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2021, 06:55:17 PM »
I think something like the Mercatus Center or Heritage Foundation has positive ROI

if so, then their attempt to avoid taxes was thwarted.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2021, 09:20:46 PM »
I view them as basically tax free lobbying so no, Uncle Sam missed his cut.
@bentren

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2021, 10:03:02 PM »
well, he'll get to tax the returns on the investment.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline memphis

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2021, 05:13:34 PM »
Related, Mark tuna-wich Warner stands firm I guess...I'd have to read up on it more but I thought there was some amount of merit towards having the capital gains be lower taxed than regular income (but maybe it's small enough that it's meh let's make them the same)


More related, has anyone heard specifics on this, is it a force of sale (at some point in time prior or after the assets are transferred to the heir) to cover unrealized gains?

Quote
The administration wants to begin requiring people to pay taxes on unrealized capital gains when they die if they exceed $1 million. The Tax Policy Center says that would violate the $400,000 pledge because there would be a small number of people who earned less than that during their lives who were sitting on piles of unrealized gains — think of an administrative assistant at Apple, for example. who had been buying the company’s stock for years.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/01/biden-tax-hike-threshold-497665

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2021, 06:31:54 PM »
I'd have to read up on it more but I thought there was some amount of merit towards having the capital gains be lower taxed than regular income (but maybe it's small enough that it's meh let's make them the same)

with interest rates under 2% on the ten year, i can't think of any merit.  we aren't short on investment capital.


on the estate tax thing, the 400k pledge was stupid (as policy, probably good politics) and they should not let it hold them back from making needed changes that would impact like 3 people in the entire rough ridin' country.
"a lot of political rhetoric is picking a slice of "elites" and positioning yourselves against them."

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2021, 10:35:53 AM »
Hell yes. Impeccable timing.


Offline MadCat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2021, 11:17:30 AM »
Politicians not exempt

Offline kim carnes

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2021, 01:28:20 PM »
I’m fine with a wealth tax and increasing capital gains tax as long as we repeal the salt cap but that will never happen.