Poll

should the united states tax unrealized capital gains?

yes
6 (22.2%)
no
21 (77.8%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: June 23, 2021, 03:21:13 PM

Author Topic: tax poll  (Read 5693 times)

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Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2021, 09:47:29 PM »
No one is going to be like, "oh, I guess what I was thinking was a loophole isn't really a loophole. So, I'm reversing my prior view and now think it's great for Warren Buffett to pay a lower tax rate than his secretary."

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2021, 10:23:34 PM »
No one is going to be like, "oh, I guess what I was thinking was a loophole isn't really a loophole. So, I'm reversing my prior view and now think it's great for Warren Buffett to pay a lower tax rate than his secretary."

i'm aware of this anecdote, but i don't know the specifics of buffett's income in that year.

regardless, the main reason buffett doesn't pay massive amounts of taxes are 1 (and about 99% of it).  he doesn't realize most of his potential income in any given year, and 2 (and like 1% of it).  most of his realized income is presumably capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income.

so i would not characterize that difference as a loophole.  the capital gains and ordinary income rates are headline items.  like among the top 3 or 4 most salient features of the tax code.  calling it a loophole when it's been a featured point of our tax code for as long as i can recall doesn't make much sense to me.  hell, i can remember board socialist kat kid defending that feature in a previous tax discussion when i was advocating for higher rates on capital gains.

more to the point.  the discussion mir and i were having was touched off by a disagreement as to whether taxes were being deferred or avoided.  in the case of buffett, they are very clearly being deferred (i believe he's stated that his plan is to eventually avoid most of those deferred taxes by giving away all his money, which debate if charitable deductions makes sense as tax policy all you want, but as a super clever and nefarious scheme to not pay taxes, giving all your money away just doesn't impress me much)
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2021, 10:32:07 PM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline catastrophe

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2021, 11:56:34 PM »
Personally I support generally higher taxes on the medium rich to rich, and a wealth tax on the super rich. I think it’s silly to act like the focus should be on a system that treats everyone the same (e.g., making sure we’ve closed all income tax loop holes for the super rich).

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2021, 06:51:25 AM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.
I think it is both true that the absolute rates on middle class should be higher and that when you have billions of dollars you can be made to pay specific taxes meant to reduce your wealth.

I know you keep saying “give away” but lots and lots of rich people just use this to effectively advance their political goals, so let’s cut the bullshit.

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2021, 07:41:47 AM »
No one is going to be like, "oh, I guess what I was thinking was a loophole isn't really a loophole. So, I'm reversing my prior view and now think it's great for Warren Buffett to pay a lower tax rate than his secretary."

i'm aware of this anecdote, but i don't know the specifics of buffett's income in that year.

regardless, the main reason buffett doesn't pay massive amounts of taxes are 1 (and about 99% of it).  he doesn't realize most of his potential income in any given year, and 2 (and like 1% of it).  most of his realized income is presumably capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income.

so i would not characterize that difference as a loophole.  the capital gains and ordinary income rates are headline items.  like among the top 3 or 4 most salient features of the tax code.  calling it a loophole when it's been a featured point of our tax code for as long as i can recall doesn't make much sense to me.  hell, i can remember board socialist kat kid defending that feature in a previous tax discussion when i was advocating for higher rates on capital gains.

more to the point.  the discussion mir and i were having was touched off by a disagreement as to whether taxes were being deferred or avoided.  in the case of buffett, they are very clearly being deferred (i believe he's stated that his plan is to eventually avoid most of those deferred taxes by giving away all his money, which debate if charitable deductions makes sense as tax policy all you want, but as a super clever and nefarious scheme to not pay taxes, giving all your money away just doesn't impress me much)
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.

I really think that, on a simple level, the ordinary person understands that people with higher than ordinary net worth do not pay a significantly higher than ordinary percentage of net worth in taxes. Many people think they should. That's a legit view. I think it's the sentiment Buffett captured in his example.

Offline kim carnes

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2021, 02:26:53 PM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.

Business owners have by far the most opportunities to avoid taxes.  High W2 earners get shafted tax wise.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2021, 03:06:58 PM »
I know you keep saying “give away” but lots and lots of rich people just use this to effectively advance their political goals, so let’s cut the bullshit.

either way you don't have the money anymore and your kids hate you.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2021, 06:11:05 PM »
I know you keep saying “give away” but lots and lots of rich people just use this to effectively advance their political goals, so let’s cut the bullshit.

either way you don't have the money anymore and your kids hate you.
I think something like the Mercatus Center or Heritage Foundation has positive ROI

Offline Spracne

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2021, 06:17:56 PM »
i know we've all decided that the problem with america is the enormously rich and not the salt of the earth medium rich, but there seem to me to be a lot more mechanisms for the medium rich to pay almost no taxes than the enormously rich.

like the 11 m exemption on estate tax.  doesn't much effect the tax bill buffett's heirs would pay if he doesn't disinherit them first, but plenty of berkshire hathaway shareholders will slip millions of dollars to their heirs without anyone ever paying a cent in taxes because of that exemption.

Business owners have by far the most opportunities to avoid taxes.  High W2 earners get shafted tax wise.

You're welcome, America.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2021, 06:55:17 PM »
I think something like the Mercatus Center or Heritage Foundation has positive ROI

if so, then their attempt to avoid taxes was thwarted.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2021, 09:20:46 PM »
I view them as basically tax free lobbying so no, Uncle Sam missed his cut.

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2021, 10:03:02 PM »
well, he'll get to tax the returns on the investment.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2021, 06:31:54 PM »
I'd have to read up on it more but I thought there was some amount of merit towards having the capital gains be lower taxed than regular income (but maybe it's small enough that it's meh let's make them the same)

with interest rates under 2% on the ten year, i can't think of any merit.  we aren't short on investment capital.


on the estate tax thing, the 400k pledge was stupid (as policy, probably good politics) and they should not let it hold them back from making needed changes that would impact like 3 people in the entire rough ridin' country.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2021, 10:35:53 AM »

Offline MadCat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2021, 11:17:30 AM »
Politicians not exempt

Offline kim carnes

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2021, 01:28:20 PM »
I’m fine with a wealth tax and increasing capital gains tax as long as we repeal the salt cap but that will never happen.

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2023, 10:22:28 PM »
Pretty obvious where they should be focusing more of their efforts than they do currently.

https://twitter.com/JHWeissmann/status/1696968203358863415

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2023, 04:18:34 PM »

Offline kim carnes

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2023, 04:29:01 PM »
What’s your point Walter??

Offline chum1

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2023, 04:49:04 PM »
What’s your point Walter??

Ever read any books on wealth inequality? It'd be a good place to start.

Offline MadCat

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2023, 04:50:37 PM »
Makes me wonder if the top 2.5% control 50% of household wealth, just for the sake of symmetry

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2023, 06:20:11 PM »
Guess I had completely missed this thread. But I believe the way the ultra wealthy manage the whole “unrecognized gains” or whatever is that they can still count those unrecognized gains as an asset that they can borrow against and they do precisely that and the banks are happy to loan them money and even when sky high interest rates those still are nothing close to even the lowest of income tax rates.

So they can say their assets are make believe, but they can still use them as leverage to get as much cheap money as they want, whenever they want.

Offline steve dave

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2023, 07:17:09 PM »
Guess I had completely missed this thread. But I believe the way the ultra wealthy manage the whole “unrecognized gains” or whatever is that they can still count those unrecognized gains as an asset that they can borrow against and they do precisely that and the banks are happy to loan them money and even when sky high interest rates those still are nothing close to even the lowest of income tax rates.

So they can say their assets are make believe, but they can still use them as leverage to get as much cheap money as they want, whenever they want.

yes, but they don't pay sky high interest rates. banks are happy to loan them money at not much more than the fed rate. obviously varies by person but if you're in position to do this to avoid the tax man you can get prime rates.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: tax poll
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2023, 07:26:04 PM »
I'm looking forward to having very little taxable income next year and finally living as the taker ksuw always assumed I was
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