StL County Cops Shoot Teen

[Dugout DickStone]

I am pretty intrigued to see how Wilson's injury goes from swelling to fractured orbital bone.  It seems to only be reported on the fringes as a fracture.  If he had a broken face that would be relevant, at least as much so much so as some surveillance cam footage from a gas station over some cigars, no?

Laws at play if he did hit the cop. I would say it really changes the entire scenario when we have two hefty felonies from one series of events.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5650000081.htm
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5650000082.htm

I agree he was in trouble if he hit the cop.  It seems the PD is thrilled to release video of someone stealing a box of cigars but insanely tight lipped about the purported injuries to the officer.  I wonder why?

[MakeItRain]

EMO, fwiw there is a distinction between a public official and a government official.

public official
Web definitions
An official is someone who holds an office in an organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority. A government official or functionary is an official who is involved in public administration or government, through either election, appointment, selection, or employment. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Official

That being said, I could have typed public figure. We can drop this now, as it has nothing to do with any point at all, right?

[CNS]

Hypothetically, could it be because officer was given a concussion and they want a statement that is taken after concussion effects are medically excluded as possibly messing with the statement's facts? 

[Spracne]

So, we're all public officials? 

[ednksu]

CNS last page i posted a huff po link with a police presser.  in it the Chief gave a brief, poorly organized timeline.  The cop *could* have heard the suspect description right before the fatal confrontation occurred. 

Also as I noted the most favorable accounts to the officer point towards the j-walking stop. Some brief pause or break in contact, possibly coinciding with the radio call, and the resulting series of altercations which led to the shooting and death of Mr. Brown.

KC radio said that from the police dept's own release that the officer didn't know.

The issue which has been raised, and rightly so because of the terribly unorganized release of info, is what the officer knew and when.  The most favorable accounts agree that the initial stop was NOT because of the robbery as you note.  That the conversation between Brown and Wilson ended/lulled and the radio released new info with a description which matched Brown which re-intensified the conversation/interaction into an altercation.  But I yield again, that is the most favorable way of forming the events to Wilson, and built on the horribly shoddy release of info by the police. 

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

So guys, I was out of the country when this ish went down.  Would someone mind recapping the facts as we know them?  For example (I don't know these to be true/verified), can someone quote and FYP?

1.  Brown, an unarmed big black dude, steals cigars from c-store, then physically assaults shopkeeper
2.  About 10 minutes later, Wilson, not responding to the robbery, drives up on Brown and a friend who are walking down the middle of the street some distance from the robbery.
3.  Wilson, from his vehicle, tells Brown and Friend to get onto the sidewalk.
4.  Brown or Friend (do we know?) says words to the effect of "no, we're almost to where we're going."
5.  "A confrontation ensues." Wilson purportedly (second hand, we don't have police report) claims that he attempted to exit his vehicle to confront them, and Brown shoved him back into the car, attacking him, during which time Brown went for the gun and it fired once, hitting no one. One shell casing was found in Wilson's car. Brown's Friend claims that Wilson grabbed Brown to pull him into the vehicle, and brown was just trying to get away. This story isn't logical, doesn't mesh with Brown's violent assault of the shopkeeper, and Brown's Friend's account is also called into question by his claims that Brown was shot repeatedly in the back (see below).
6.  Wilson gets out of the car and fires a number of shots at Brown, hitting him 6 times. Autopsy seems to confirm that most, if not all of the shots, were to Brown's front. The shot that killed him entered from the top of his head towards his jaw, indicating that Brown's head was either bent forward at the time (consistent with Wilson's second hand account that Brown was rushing him) or that Wilson shot Brown "execution style" from above him (does not appear to be consistent with any purported eye witness accounts).
7.  A number of eye witnesses claim that Brown was shot in the back and/or after turning towards Wilson with his hands up. "Police sources" claim other eye witnesses support Wilson's purported claims.
8. Wilson suffered "a swollen face" and an "orbital blowout fracture" from the physical struggle.

Couple additions/edits to the list. I think this all we know so far.

[ednksu]

EMO, fwiw there is a distinction between a public official and a government official.

public official
Web definitions
An official is someone who holds an office in an organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority. A government official or functionary is an official who is involved in public administration or government, through either election, appointment, selection, or employment. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Official

That being said, I could have typed public figure. We can drop this now, as it has nothing to do with any point at all, right?

If dropping it is directed at me, yes. 

I will also yield that my first posts were over generalized and built with little clarity which could have been attempted with more forethought.  I tried to explain my thoughts a bit more clearly later, and obviously I failed by passion or ignorance of message to explain myself the way I wanted to in that part of the thread.    No one speaks for all. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Hypothetically, could it be because officer was given a concussion and they want a statement that is taken after concussion effects are medically excluded as possibly messing with the statement's facts?

The officer probably realizes that he is being investigated for murder and is exercising his Miranda rights. Really, outside of him incriminating himself, I see little to no chance that he gets found guilty of anything here.

[Spracne]

Hypothetically, could it be because officer was given a concussion and they want a statement that is taken after concussion effects are medically excluded as possibly messing with the statement's facts?

The officer probably realizes that he is being investigated for murder and is exercising his Miranda rights. Really, outside of him incriminating himself, I see little to no chance that he gets found guilty of anything here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anytime an officer is involved in a situation like this, doesn't his or her union usually swoop in to provide protection and advocacy?  The silence could be union mandated.

[ednksu]

So guys, I was out of the country when this ish went down.  Would someone mind recapping the facts as we know them?  For example (I don't know these to be true/verified), can someone quote and FYP?

1.  Brown, an unarmed big black dude, steals cigars from c-store, then physically assaults shopkeeper
2.  About 10 minutes later, Wilson, not responding to the robbery, drives up on Brown and a friend who are walking down the middle of the street some distance from the robbery.
3.  Wilson, from his vehicle, tells Brown and Friend to get onto the sidewalk.
4.  Brown or Friend (do we know?) says words to the effect of "no, we're almost to where we're going."
5.  "A confrontation ensues." Wilson purportedly (second hand, we don't have police report) claims that he attempted to exit his vehicle to confront them, and Brown shoved him back into the car, attacking him, during which time Brown went for the gun and it fired once, hitting no one. One shell casing was found in Wilson's car. Brown's Friend claims that Wilson grabbed Brown to pull him into the vehicle, and brown was just trying to get away. This story isn't logical, doesn't mesh with Brown's violent assault of the shopkeeper, and Brown's Friend's account is also called into question by his claims that Brown was shot repeatedly in the back (see below).
6.  Wilson gets out of the car and fires a number of shots at Brown, hitting him 6 times. Autopsy seems to confirm that most, if not all of the shots, were to Brown's front. The shot that killed him entered from the top of his head towards his jaw, indicating that Brown's head was either bent forward at the time (consistent with Wilson's second hand account that Brown was rushing him) or that Wilson shot Brown "execution style" from above him (does not appear to be consistent with any purported eye witness accounts).
7.  A number of eye witnesses claim that Brown was shot in the back and/or after turning towards Wilson with his hands up. "Police sources" claim other eye witnesses support Wilson's purported claims.
8. Wilson suffered "a swollen face" and an "orbital blowout fracture" from the physical struggle.

Couple additions/edits to the list. I think this all we know so far.

Not a very good edit, at least bold it so we know what you added, but you state somethings as facts (favorable info for the cop) which are not released info, but only 'sources' or assumptions.

[williamthewildcat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anytime an officer is involved in a situation like this, doesn't his or her union usually swoop in to provide protection and advocacy?  The silence could be union mandated.[\quote]

If I'm the officers attorney, he says nothing. He has nothing to gain by being anything but silent.

[williamthewildcat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anytime an officer is involved in a situation like this, doesn't his or her union usually swoop in to provide protection and advocacy?  The silence could be union mandated.

If I'm the officers attorney, he says nothing. He has nothing to gain by being anything but silent.

[gatoveintisiet]

I'm not racist but,
Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?
clowns that lead dumb blacks

@katkid

I'm not racist, but THOSE people can't think for themselves and are led by clowns.

I've said about 6 times in this thread that the concept of a black community is folly and every black person I know does not see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as our leaders. Instead of listening to me, I have these two posters who very obviously don't know any black people nor have never had a substantive conversation with a black person about this issue tell me I'm wrong. I point out that white people aren't placed in the white community and no other race has assigned leaders and that strangely makes me a racist

So this black community thing; myself, Herman Cane, Barack Obama, the Carr Brothers, and Nicki Minaj are in the same community? Okay?

KSUw, Al and Jesse get on television because they are public officials. Keith Olbermann and Rush Limbaugh are public officials that get lots of publicity, are they the leaders of white people?

I'd say, Limbaugh 20 million listeners, Bill O has quite an audience, and Barack Obama got like 57% of the white vote, so they are the leaders of the white man.

[Spracne]

I'm not racist but,
Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?
clowns that lead dumb blacks

@katkid

I'm not racist, but THOSE people can't think for themselves and are led by clowns.

I've said about 6 times in this thread that the concept of a black community is folly and every black person I know does not see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as our leaders. Instead of listening to me, I have these two posters who very obviously don't know any black people nor have never had a substantive conversation with a black person about this issue tell me I'm wrong. I point out that white people aren't placed in the white community and no other race has assigned leaders and that strangely makes me a racist

So this black community thing; myself, Herman Cane, Barack Obama, the Carr Brothers, and Nicki Minaj are in the same community? Okay?

KSUw, Al and Jesse get on television because they are public officials. Keith Olbermann and Rush Limbaugh are public officials that get lots of publicity, are they the leaders of white people?

I'd say, Limbaugh 20 million listeners, Bill O has quite an audience, and Barack Obama got like 57% of the white vote, so they are the leaders of the white man.

sauce?

[Dugout DickStone]

So when did this blowout fracture develop?  Even the world's worst doctor X-rays that.  Unless it doesn't exist

[ednksu]

So when did this blowout fracture develop?  Even the world's worst doctor X-rays that.  Unless it doesn't exist

I thought that one of the x-rays which was reported was a fake.

as far as xrays missing stuff, ask Hosmer about swelling obscuring results.

[Dugout DickStone]

So when did this blowout fracture develop?  Even the world's worst doctor X-rays that.  Unless it doesn't exist

I thought that one of the x-rays which was reported was a fake.

as far as xrays missing stuff, ask Hosmer about swelling obscuring results.

How about I ask anyone who isn't a clown about swelling obscuring a blowout fracture of the orbital socket?

[Rage Against the McKee]

So when did this blowout fracture develop?  Even the world's worst doctor X-rays that.  Unless it doesn't exist

I thought that one of the x-rays which was reported was a fake.

as far as xrays missing stuff, ask Hosmer about swelling obscuring results.

Pfffft

[Fedor]

Why is everyone fixating on whether there is a fracture or not?  The shooting will not be deemed justified based on the presence or absence of a facial fracture.

[The1BigWillie]

The only thing that will ever FIX this is for money to be pumped into these communities so the people living in these areas under these economic conditions can actually make something of themselves and live a life that they have no comprehension of right now. It's basic survival and waiting for the government to toss out the crumbs and getting out of that is next to impossible for any race without more money.  The top 5% had better wake up and re-distribute their ridiculous wealth or the bottom 25% will come after them and take the whole system down eventually.  They wealthy can keep ignoring this but it's coming and they have the power to stop it. 

 

So what's the alternative?  What's happening now and has been happening for decades is NOT working and it's getting worse.

Are seriously suggesting a redistribution of wealth as a solution to racial inequity? I thought your post was a joke. I brought a set of custom fit Callaway irons and a new Callaway driver on Saturday, far from waiting for government crumbs, and I can't stop people from assigning me a community and assigning me leaders because I'm black.

LOL... come on man. I didn't say that the gov't needed to re-distribute the wealth to black people.  I said.. "anyone". The income/wealth gap is greater than ever and crap WILL hit the fan if something isn't done about it. 

Also, nice clubs and :fanningbrag: buddy. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Why is everyone fixating on whether there is a fracture or not?  The shooting will not be deemed justified based on the presence or absence of a facial fracture.

Ask Hosmer why it matters.

[ednksu]

So when did this blowout fracture develop?  Even the world's worst doctor X-rays that.  Unless it doesn't exist

I thought that one of the x-rays which was reported was a fake.

as far as xrays missing stuff, ask Hosmer about swelling obscuring results.

How about I ask anyone who isn't a clown about swelling obscuring a blowout fracture of the orbital socket?

Fine be a dick.
Anyways:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/injuries_and_poisoning/fractures/overview_of_fractures.html
Most fractures are diagnosed by x-rays, although some require repeat x-rays in 7 to 10 days or computed tomography or magnetic resonance imaging.
http://www.mddus.com/mddus/resource-library/2012/summons---autumn-issue/missed-fractures.aspx
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Zygomatic-Arch-and-Orbital-Fractures.htm
A plain X-ray of the skull is basic - standard views are facial, occiptomental and submento-vertical. Interpretation may be difficult - systematically check for:[9]
The orbital outline - the droplet sign shows soft tissue prolapsing into the maxillary sinus in an orbital floor fracture.
The sinus outline - any opacification or fluid level in the maxillary sinus is suggestive of a fracture.
An 'elephant's trunk' - follow the zygomatic line laterally and the maxillary line medially.
The coronoid processes which should be equidistant from the maxillary line bilaterally.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

A fracture provides evidence of more significant injury, which provides greater - though not conclusive - justification for deadly force. It's just one more thing to take into account when determining whether the officer had a reasonable belief of imminent serious bodily harm or death.

[slobber]

Pretty telling that this thread is already longer than the global climate change thread. 

Well yeah, it's not 1985.


Gonna win 'em all!

[The1BigWillie]

This cop is going to walk unless he's assassinated before the acquittal.  chowder keg is about to go off.