StL County Cops Shoot Teen

[Dugout DickStone]

Police are supposed to shoot to kill so the number of shots is irrelevant IMO.

Why he pulled a gun in the first place is the biggest question.

Really?  I thought they tried to knock a perp down sometimes.  I could be wrong though.

[#LIFE]

Has anybody had a crazy friend that 90% of the time is just fine but every now and then just goes
Off the rails on the crazytrain?  Well i have had a few, people i really liked despite their craziness but
what happens is they get all wound up about something, start being irrational, paranoid etc. and I want
to be their friend, calm them down, walk them through reality step by step and after alot of effort
they still don't really get it.  The first time this happens with someone I'm ok with it, 2nd time I might
tolerate it, after that I just avoid being around them.

I shoot them the first time. (6 times, you don't realize how easy it is to fire six shots quickly.)

Either way this situation gets miss-diagnosed as racism alot.

Yeah, clearly race is not an issue in the Mike Brown shooting and subsequent events.

I'm not sure how anyone could suggest with any certainty that it was an issue in the shooting.

Well, under mir's assumptions, this was just another card-carrying klan member cop out cruising the streets looking to fill his quota of  for the month

[michigancat]

Has anybody had a crazy friend that 90% of the time is just fine but every now and then just goes
Off the rails on the crazytrain?  Well i have had a few, people i really liked despite their craziness but
what happens is they get all wound up about something, start being irrational, paranoid etc. and I want
to be their friend, calm them down, walk them through reality step by step and after alot of effort
they still don't really get it.  The first time this happens with someone I'm ok with it, 2nd time I might
tolerate it, after that I just avoid being around them.

I shoot them the first time. (6 times, you don't realize how easy it is to fire six shots quickly.)

Either way this situation gets miss-diagnosed as racism alot.

Yeah, clearly race is not an issue in the Mike Brown shooting and subsequent events.

I'm not sure how anyone could suggest with any certainty that it was an issue in the shooting.

Of course not, but there's a pretty good chance it was an issue. We're humans, we're all influenced by appearances and can't really help it.

[Spracne]

Has anybody had a crazy friend that 90% of the time is just fine but every now and then just goes
Off the rails on the crazytrain?  Well i have had a few, people i really liked despite their craziness but
what happens is they get all wound up about something, start being irrational, paranoid etc. and I want
to be their friend, calm them down, walk them through reality step by step and after alot of effort
they still don't really get it.  The first time this happens with someone I'm ok with it, 2nd time I might
tolerate it, after that I just avoid being around them.

Do you hit enter at the end of every line or something?

Return? If you could solve this mystery for me I would appreciate.

Wtf

It is return on my ipad, and i do hit it at the end of a line like an old typewriter, so i guess i shouldn't do that.

I don't think this is getting enough attention ITT.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Has anybody had a crazy friend that 90% of the time is just fine but every now and then just goes
Off the rails on the crazytrain?  Well i have had a few, people i really liked despite their craziness but
what happens is they get all wound up about something, start being irrational, paranoid etc. and I want
to be their friend, calm them down, walk them through reality step by step and after alot of effort
they still don't really get it.  The first time this happens with someone I'm ok with it, 2nd time I might
tolerate it, after that I just avoid being around them.

I shoot them the first time. (6 times, you don't realize how easy it is to fire six shots quickly.)

Either way this situation gets miss-diagnosed as racism alot.

Yeah, clearly race is not an issue in the Mike Brown shooting and subsequent events.

I'm not sure how anyone could suggest with any certainty that it was an issue in the shooting.

Of course not, but there's a pretty good chance it was an issue. We're humans, we're all influenced by appearances and can't really help it.

I agree with your second statement that we're all influenced by appearance, but you're making a bit of a stretch from there to "a pretty good chance" race played a factor in the cop's decision to pull the trigger. You simply can't know that or assume it with even reasonable probability. Blacks have a much greater chance of being killed by other blacks, but I wouldn't attribute that to some deep-seated inherent racial prejudice.

[michigancat]

Has anybody had a crazy friend that 90% of the time is just fine but every now and then just goes
Off the rails on the crazytrain?  Well i have had a few, people i really liked despite their craziness but
what happens is they get all wound up about something, start being irrational, paranoid etc. and I want
to be their friend, calm them down, walk them through reality step by step and after alot of effort
they still don't really get it.  The first time this happens with someone I'm ok with it, 2nd time I might
tolerate it, after that I just avoid being around them.

I shoot them the first time. (6 times, you don't realize how easy it is to fire six shots quickly.)

Either way this situation gets miss-diagnosed as racism alot.

Yeah, clearly race is not an issue in the Mike Brown shooting and subsequent events.

I'm not sure how anyone could suggest with any certainty that it was an issue in the shooting.

Of course not, but there's a pretty good chance it was an issue. We're humans, we're all influenced by appearances and can't really help it.

I agree with your second statement that we're all influenced by appearance, but you're making a bit of a stretch from there to "a pretty good chance" race played a factor in the cop's decision to pull the trigger. You simply can't know that or assume it with even reasonable probability.

Looking at the traffic stop rates in Ferguson by race and the data regarding the higher rate cops kill blacks during arrests and the fact that the cop was a human, one can assume with reasonable probability that race was a factor in the interaction between Brown and the cop. Perhaps not at the precise moment he pulled the trigger, but in the way the two initiated contact and subsequently escalated.

Race was likely a factor for Brown, as well - if Ferguson had any black cops on staff he may have a better impression of the mission of the local police and perhaps not have been so hostile. Unfortunately I don't have data on the attitude of youth to police with similar demographics like I do with the rate at which cops kill black people.

[ednksu]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople. Who are white leaders, hispanic leaders, asian leaders? Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are individuals who make individual decisions to sometimes speak out or act about things that sometimes get the attention of mass media, sometimes not. We don't have meetings where they tell us what they are going to say and do. Any agreements, disagreements, games of backgammon, etc. are decisions of individuals, I cannot speak as any collective. I don't know any black people that give much thought to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, so I can't tell you about any divide in "black communities" (also a completely ambitious term, doesn't really mean anything, I'm black, very black, and I have no idea which black community I'm a member of). I know a lot of people made fun of Al Sharpton for being a snitch, but I mostly saw that on social media. I think the only person I had a conversation about it with was a white dude.


What the hell does this have to do with Benjamin Crump?

Now you're just being daft to duck the valid point.  If you don't think that Jackson and Sharpton promote themselves as black community leadership you are lying now or lying to yourself.  I mean eff dude:

That episode happened for a reason.  A very complex reason, but a very valid one. 

And the point about Curmp is what value he has in representing two civil rights/questionable shootings of black youths.  You are ducking the point about this guy in order to expand you bullshit critique about how people over generalize and treat the black community with suspicion. 

[michigancat]

Of course, my cops killing blacks data may be skewed, because nobody's really sure how many people cops kill annually(!)

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/

[MakeItRain]

Well, under mir's assumptions, this was just another card-carrying klan member cop out cruising the streets looking to fill his quota of  for the month

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, you stupid eff. You didn't get enough before when I was forced to point out that you didn't understand the word anyone? Link one post where I said anything about the cop's motivation for shooting Brown, I'll wait.








I didn't think so. Were you a FAS baby? Shut the eff up. I purposefully didn't say anything about the cop because I knew one of you rough ridin' morons who doesn't understand nuance would just make some crap up.

[williamthewildcat]

Should probably qualify this post with *** possible shennanigans***

The gateway pundit is reporting that the officer suffered a blowout fracture of the orbital bone over his left eye. It includes a stock sagittal image of a CT scan showing what these fractures look like. At first, I thought it was the CT scan of the officer involved. But it's not.

If this is indeed true, the officer is going to look really beat up on any images taken after the incident.  These fractures result in swelling and bruising. Like any black eye, it lasts for weeks.

This is just becoming more tragic. I watched the family in an interview today. I cannot fathom burying my son under these circumstances.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Looking at the traffic stop rates in Ferguson by race and the data regarding the higher rate cops kill blacks during arrests and the fact that the cop was a human, one can assume with reasonable probability that race was a factor in the interaction between Brown and the cop.

Not sure if your claims are correct that Ferguson police subject blacks to a disproportionate number of traffic stops, or that police kill a disproportionate number of blacks during arrest, but I don't think either of those things proves overt or inherent racism.

Perhaps not at the precise moment he pulled the trigger, but in the way the two initiated contact and subsequently escalated.

The way Brown and Wilson "initiated contact" seems pretty well uncontroverted. Brown had just finished robbing a store, was walking down the middle of the street, and the officer told him to get on the sidewalk. That doesn't sound very racist.

As for how the conflict "subsequently escalated," it seems most likely that Brown assaulted Wilson, given Wilson's seated position in the vehicle and Brown's assault of the shopkeeper just 10 minutes prior and otherwise deranged behavior (rob a store, assualt the shopkeeper, then stroll down the street and refuse to obey an officer). Again, not seeing racism here on the part of Wilson.

[420seriouscat69]

This whole thing is making everybody stupid. I mean, like, all sides are looking really dumb in this whole thing.

[420seriouscat69]

This whole thing is making everybody stupid. I mean, like, all sides are looking really dumb in this whole thing.

And don't get me started with the dumbasses on Facebook posting about it. I mean, woof! One had statistics about black on black crime vs white on black crime, one wanted to let everyone know how racist we all are, etc. I'm over it. What a shitty thing. 

[The1BigWillie]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople.

http://blackcommunitynews.com/watch-dr-ben-carson-role-black-leaders-ferguson/ 

[MakeItRain]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople. Who are white leaders, hispanic leaders, asian leaders? Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are individuals who make individual decisions to sometimes speak out or act about things that sometimes get the attention of mass media, sometimes not. We don't have meetings where they tell us what they are going to say and do. Any agreements, disagreements, games of backgammon, etc. are decisions of individuals, I cannot speak as any collective. I don't know any black people that give much thought to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, so I can't tell you about any divide in "black communities" (also a completely ambitious term, doesn't really mean anything, I'm black, very black, and I have no idea which black community I'm a member of). I know a lot of people made fun of Al Sharpton for being a snitch, but I mostly saw that on social media. I think the only person I had a conversation about it with was a white dude.


What the hell does this have to do with Benjamin Crump?

Now you're just being daft to duck the valid point.  If you don't think that Jackson and Sharpton promote themselves as black community leadership you are lying now or lying to yourself.  I mean eff dude:

That episode happened for a reason.  A very complex reason, but a very valid one. 

And the point about Curmp is what value he has in representing two civil rights/questionable shootings of black youths.  You are ducking the point about this guy in order to expand you bullshit critique about how people over generalize and treat the black community with suspicion.

So to recap, ednksu asked me how black people feel about Sharpton and Jackson. I, me, a real life black person told him what I and others I know think of them. Then the dude essentially called me a liar because I didn't confirm what he thought was true and used a cartoon about white people written by two white people who live in Boulder, Colorado as proof that I'm lying. Simply fantastic.

now give me a second while I yell to make a point about the second thing he addresses.

WHAT rough ridin' VALUE DOES HE STAND TO GAIN, HE TAKES THESE CASES FOR FREE!!! HE HAS A PRACTICE IN TALLAHASSEE WHERE HE MAKES HIS MONEY, HE ISN'T MAKING A rough ridin' CENT OFF OF THIS. WHEN THE MARTIN/ZIMMERMAN CASE WAS SETTLED HE ASKED THAT THE SETTLEMENT REMAIN SEALED. NOT DISCLOSING HOW MUCH MONEY ONE OF HIS CLIENTS MADE IS ABSOLUTELY THE BEST WAY TO MAKE MORE MONEY.

Dear rough ridin' god man. 

[MakeItRain]

Should probably qualify this post with *** possible shennanigans***

The gateway pundit is reporting that the officer suffered a blowout fracture of the orbital bone over his left eye. It includes a stock sagittal image of a CT scan showing what these fractures look like. At first, I thought it was the CT scan of the officer involved. But it's not.

If this is indeed true, the officer is going to look really beat up on any images taken after the incident.  These fractures result in swelling and bruising. Like any black eye, it lasts for weeks.

This is just becoming more tragic. I watched the family in an interview today. I cannot fathom burying my son under these circumstances.

The Ferguson Police Chief said on CNN last week that the officer was treated with a swollen face and had no further injuries.

[michigancat]

Looking at the traffic stop rates in Ferguson by race and the data regarding the higher rate cops kill blacks during arrests and the fact that the cop was a human, one can assume with reasonable probability that race was a factor in the interaction between Brown and the cop.

Not sure if your claims are correct that Ferguson police subject blacks to a disproportionate number of traffic stops, or that police kill a disproportionate number of blacks during arrest, but I don't think either of those things proves overt or inherent racism.

Ferguson police are much more likely to stop, search and arrest African-American drivers than white ones. Last year, blacks, who make up a little less than two-thirds of the driving-age population in the North County city, accounted for 86 percent of all stops. When stopped, they were almost twice as likely to be searched as whites and twice as likely to be arrested, though police were less likely to find contraband on them.

Last year, Ferguson police searched 12.1 percent of black drivers they stopped, compared to 6.9 percent for whites. Contraband was found 22 percent of the time when the driver was black and 34 percent when the driver was white.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-stops-in-ferguson-what-are-the-numbers/article_012cf751-9cec-5733-8025-09e03abb9d86.html

http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

If it isn't racism, what is your explanation?

The cop killing death is here:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

Again, this data is inconclusive because we don't have an accurate count of how many people policemen kill each year.

Perhaps not at the precise moment he pulled the trigger, but in the way the two initiated contact and subsequently escalated.

The way Brown and Wilson "initiated contact" seems pretty well uncontroverted. Brown had just finished robbing a store, was walking down the middle of the street, and the officer told him to get on the sidewalk. That doesn't sound very racist.

As for how the conflict "subsequently escalated," it seems most likely that Brown assaulted Wilson, given Wilson's seated position in the vehicle and Brown's assault of the shopkeeper just 10 minutes prior and otherwise deranged behavior (rob a store, assualt the shopkeeper, then stroll down the street and refuse to obey an officer). Again, not seeing racism here on the part of Wilson.

I don't think any human interaction is as simple as you seem to think this interaction that resulted with a dead unarmed teenager was.

[MakeItRain]

Review and understanding of motives in situations such as this is not a racial thing.

You don't think Gloria Allred's (one example) motives aren't questioned whenever she intervenes or shows up in front of the cameras MIR?

You still haven't established why Benjamin Crump should be questioned and compared to Gloria Allred. Are we wondering if he's an opportunist because he had the gall to represent the parents of one other black kid that was shot? You don't even know whether or not he is licenced in Missouri or if Brown's parents asked him to help or if he just showed up. All we know is that this dude helped Trayvon Martin's parents and it's helping these people, so I'll ask again, why do we need to question this man's motives?

Who is using any of the words you constantly pull out, "Crap bag" etc. etc. 

Like I've said before, there's no use in even discussing this with you, because you're extremely hyper-defensive about it.    The track record for some of the personalities that have injected themselves into this situation speaks for itself.    There's no doubt in my mind there's many in that area who wish they never would have shown up and would just go away.

You still have not established why Crump should fit here, and its clear that you won't so you go ahead and have the last word not addressing why Crump is an opportunist.

[MakeItRain]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople.

http://blackcommunitynews.com/watch-dr-ben-carson-role-black-leaders-ferguson/ 

Did you watch that video? I am not being facetious when I state that it literally has nothing to do with that sentence that you clipped from my post. He could have been talking about Al Sharpton's weight loss and it would have been more relevant. I'm confused with the point you're trying to make.

[williamthewildcat]

The Ferguson Police Chief said on CNN last week that the officer was treated with a swollen face and had no further injuries.

I recall reading something similar now that you mention it. If he had a blowout fx the PD would have released images I'm sure.

[The1BigWillie]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople.

http://blackcommunitynews.com/watch-dr-ben-carson-role-black-leaders-ferguson/ 

Did you watch that video? I am not being facetious when I state that it literally has nothing to do with that sentence that you clipped from my post. He could have been talking about Al Sharpton's weight loss and it would have been more relevant. I'm confused with the point you're trying to make.

I guess I was just curious why that guy was discussing something that "white people" just  "made up".

[williamthewildcat]

Watching KMOV feed and there was another officer involved killing today in North STL. Apparently the suspect was brandishing a knife.

[michigancat]

can we get these fuckers some goddam tasers or pepper spray or something?

[ednksu]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople. Who are white leaders, hispanic leaders, asian leaders? Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are individuals who make individual decisions to sometimes speak out or act about things that sometimes get the attention of mass media, sometimes not. We don't have meetings where they tell us what they are going to say and do. Any agreements, disagreements, games of backgammon, etc. are decisions of individuals, I cannot speak as any collective. I don't know any black people that give much thought to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, so I can't tell you about any divide in "black communities" (also a completely ambitious term, doesn't really mean anything, I'm black, very black, and I have no idea which black community I'm a member of). I know a lot of people made fun of Al Sharpton for being a snitch, but I mostly saw that on social media. I think the only person I had a conversation about it with was a white dude.


What the hell does this have to do with Benjamin Crump?

Now you're just being daft to duck the valid point.  If you don't think that Jackson and Sharpton promote themselves as black community leadership you are lying now or lying to yourself.  I mean eff dude:

That episode happened for a reason.  A very complex reason, but a very valid one. 

And the point about Curmp is what value he has in representing two civil rights/questionable shootings of black youths.  You are ducking the point about this guy in order to expand you bullshit critique about how people over generalize and treat the black community with suspicion.

So to recap, ednksu asked me how black people feel about Sharpton and Jackson. I, me, a real life black person told him what I and others I know think of them. Then the dude essentially called me a liar because I didn't confirm what he thought was true and used a cartoon about white people written by two white people who live in Boulder, Colorado as proof that I'm lying. Simply fantastic.

now give me a second while I yell to make a point about the second thing he addresses.

WHAT rough ridin' VALUE DOES HE STAND TO GAIN, HE TAKES THESE CASES FOR FREE!!! HE HAS A PRACTICE IN TALLAHASSEE WHERE HE MAKES HIS MONEY, HE ISN'T MAKING A rough ridin' CENT OFF OF THIS. WHEN THE MARTIN/ZIMMERMAN CASE WAS SETTLED HE ASKED THAT THE SETTLEMENT REMAIN SEALED. NOT DISCLOSING HOW MUCH MONEY ONE OF HIS CLIENTS MADE IS ABSOLUTELY THE BEST WAY TO MAKE MORE MONEY.

Dear rough ridin' god man.

starkly and profoundly wtong at every level.

First I asked you about the lawyer directly and you diflected with a it does matter he is a pro quip no way black dudes would be self promoters.  When asked about you diflected with a racist remark about how white people all think blacks have elected leadership and group meetings.  Totally offensive response which promoted nothing but ignorance and was only subterfuge to duck the serious issues with exploiters like Jackson (who rightly so are being booed by the black comminity because these men see these events as fundraisers.)  Which leads to the final note that thesr situatuons can lead to alot of money via speaking fees, fundraising for foundations, future clients (wrong about sealed settlements) and a number of other avenues.

[MakeItRain]

So do you disagree that there is a divide, and possibly a growing one, between black leaders (like A Jackson/Sharpton), and black communities?  That maybe their, the leader's, motives don't always coincide with the goals of the community they rush to represent?  Do you find any of the resentment of leaders like Jackson or Sharpton from the right to carry any weight or is it a total slander operation to discredit movements from disadvantaged communities which are agitating for more enfranchisement?

I don't even know what/who "black leaders" are, that's some crap that white people made up as a means to feel like we need spokespeople.

http://blackcommunitynews.com/watch-dr-ben-carson-role-black-leaders-ferguson/ 

Did you watch that video? I am not being facetious when I state that it literally has nothing to do with that sentence that you clipped from my post. He could have been talking about Al Sharpton's weight loss and it would have been more relevant. I'm confused with the point you're trying to make.

I guess I was just curious why that guy was discussing something that "white people" just  "made up".

So you didn't watch it. He never called Sharpton a leader in the black community nor discussed Sharpton as a leader. Maybe write an email to whomever runs that website and ask him why the made the url say that