No more tenure for teachers?

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?

Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.

Worked for a large corp for the first 7yrs out of KSU.  Happened often.  Security watches them pack then escorts them out.  I have also seen several coworkers put through a review period only to have the reviewer set goals that are not black and white and completely subjective, then fire someone 4-6wks later for them not meeting the subjective goals set during the review period.  This actually happened to an old boss of mine who did his job just fine but was scapegoat'ed to please a client that thought he was wronged by my bosses boss but did a lot of work with out company. 

Note: many of the former very much deserved it.  This isn't an argument for tenure.  Just a note that it does actually happen.

That happens in ed. too.

How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?

Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.

I know several who have been laid off. Usually they've gotten a few months notice at least, but layoffs and firings happen all the time in the real world. There is absolutely no valid reason for tenure in K-12 education.

teachers get let go and fired in Kansas every year as well. Do you disagree with that?

No, that's true. But it's also true that some teachers have "tenure" based upon seniority. It all depends upon what the unions (usually) have negotiated. I have a relative, for example, who is a relatively new elemtary teacher. She is constantly worried about being laid off because the structure they have rigidly protects seniority over quality. They actually have a list, called a RIF List (Reduction in Force) that lines them all up by seniority, and they fire from the bottom up if necessary. The teachers also have all sorts of protections built in that makes it very hard to fire anyone except for RIF purposes. You have to through hearings, an entire administrative review procedure, etc.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

 The 2008 San Diego USD teacher of the year was laid off simply because the union rule is last first hired - first fired.

[Rage Against the McKee]

The 2008 San Diego USD teacher of the year was laid off simply because the union rule is first hired - first fired.

That is a very strange rule. Usually the new employees are the first fired.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

The 2008 San Diego USD teacher of the year was laid off simply because the union rule is first hired - first fired.

That is a very strange rule. Usually the new employees are the first fired.

  damn you Freud! 

[CNS]

Cire, I am sure you are right about it happening in ed, but my wife has been teaching something like 12 years in one district and has never even heard of it happening. 

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

well since this thread is flaming out.....


If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/

(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)

If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.

holy crap, what a bunch of morons.

That's fake news.

Stuff like this really validates my aforesaid position regarding the pit.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

It's not any less lazy or justified than simply stating being a teacher is "just not the same," which is your dumbass unfounded position.

[star seed 7]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

same people that equate running a government with running a household

[p1k3]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

same people that equate running a government with running a household

I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!

[0.42]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

same people that equate running a government with running a household

I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!

lol

[0.42]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

It's not any less lazy or justified than simply stating being a teacher is "just not the same," which is your dumbass unfounded position.

double lol

[Cire]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

same people that equate running a government with running a household

I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!

The year round pay always gets me.

[Cire]

As far as teachers not getting fired often.  That is a good thing.  Can you imagine the uproar if teachers were being fired all the time?

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

As far as teachers not getting fired often.  That is a good thing.  Can you imagine the uproar if teachers were being fired all the time?

No. Firing somebody for doing a lousy job doesn't seem that strange to me.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Guys, being a teacher is not the same as a regular job because you get paid an annual salary for 9 months worth of work, and your pay and promotion comes regardless of the measurable failure your work has on the people you provide your "professional" service to.  Obviously teachers need far greater work place protection, otherwise nobody would want to do the job. I mean, teachers didn't even exist until tenure came about and they were basically considered bums, rather than pillars of the community, until tenure came about.  The NEA is an altruistic collection of individuals dedicated to the advancement of society, not a bunch of people trying to collectively bargain for greater wages, benefits and job security than people of a similar skill set could ever hope for. Anyone who disagrees with me clearly doesn't get it and is probably anti-intellectual and Anti-society because I say so and am too rough ridin' stupid and lazy to cobble together a coherent argument to justify my illogical unrealistic preconceived notion of what exactly is going on here.

- Serious Thought on goE

[wetwillie]

Guys, being a teacher is not the same as a regular job because you get paid an annual salary for 9 months worth of work, and your pay and promotion comes regardless of the measurable failure your work has on the people you provide your "professional" service to.  Obviously teachers need far greater work place protection, otherwise nobody would want to do the job. I mean, teachers didn't even exist until tenure came about and they were basically considered bums, rather than pillars of the community, until tenure came about.  The NEA is an altruistic collection of individuals dedicated to the advancement of society, not a bunch of people trying to collectively bargain for greater wages, benefits and job security than people of a similar skill set could ever hope for. Anyone who disagrees with me clearly doesn't get it and is probably anti-intellectual and Anti-society because I say so and am too rough ridin' stupid and lazy to cobble together a coherent argument to justify my illogical unrealistic preconceived notion of what exactly is going on here.

- Serious Thought on goE

If you count thanksgiving break, christmas break, spring break etc its probably closer to eight months.

[Tobias]

would it be better for discussion if we just pretended they were hourly employees or something?  i'm not 100% certain we're dealing with HR going "oh eff, didn't realize doug has only been working 30hrs/wk"

[MakeItRain]

As far as teachers not getting fired often.  That is a good thing.  Can you imagine the uproar if teachers were being fired all the time?

No. Firing somebody for doing a lousy job doesn't seem that strange to me.

I'm interested to know what your measure is for "lousy job" and who are all of these administrators keeping teachers they consider lousy.

[_33]

wish I could get tenure in my profession 

Must be nice

ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.

the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:

"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"

same people that equate running a government with running a household

I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!

Oh man, I had almost forgotten that you were Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).

[TheHamburglar]

Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms.  Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world.  I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class.  I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year.  She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out.  That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000. 

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

The education system is failing and it has nothing to do with the teachers, guys. Stop being so naive. The problem is people thinking teachers is a business and money spent should yield a modicum of result.  Not so, in fact what we really need to do is put more money in teachers pensions, make the NEA mandatory, make it impossible to fire a teacher and implement card check. These are the altruistic values the teaching profession was founded on and will guide us into an period of enlightenment.That's the pro - intellectual and pro - society stance and it's unassailable.

[star seed 7]

Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms.  Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world.  I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class.  I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year.  She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out.  That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.

the hamburglar went to seaman also?   

[Tobias]

pods in poundtown, about to be torn down

[wetwillie]

Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms.  Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world.  I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class.  I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year.  She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out.  That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.

the hamburglar went to seaman also?   

Negative, his description can only be that of salina south highschool

[TheHamburglar]

Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms.  Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world.  I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class.  I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year.  She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out.  That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.

the hamburglar went to seaman also?   

Salina South