No more tenure for teachers?

[Daddy Claxton]

If you're looking for a job outside the classroom where you can't be arbitrarily removed at the whim of a superior, you're going to be disappointed.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

If you're looking for a job outside the classroom where you can't be arbitrarily removed at the whim of a superior, you're going to be disappointed.

Yes, why are teachers a protected class? Is it because they can't find employment elsewhere if they are fired?

[star seed 7]

like kk (i think it was) said, nearly all business have some sort of due process as a means to protect themselves legally, why should teachers not have this right as well?

[raquetcat]

I think it would be difficult to evaluate teachers fairly and accurately, but it can be done, it's probably just a lot of work. Thus most lazy school districts just want to link teacher evaluations to standardized testing (because it's easy and cut and dry) which worries teachers b/c it's not a good representation of their work, thus they are afraid of losing their job and want protections from that threat. But I may have just made that all up and it could be wrong, can any teachercats confirm/deny?

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

like kk (i think it was) said, nearly all business have some sort of due process as a means to protect themselves legally, why should teachers not have this right as well?

Some businesses have a due process type of termination policy, but most don't. There are already federal laws that prohibit termination for the obvious non-performance reasons like race, physical disability, gender, religion, etc. Some states even prohibit malice as a reason to fire someone.

What other special circumstances does a K-12 teacher need to prevent "unfair" termination?

[HerrSonntag]

For people wondering about why k-12 teachers NEED tenure, remember that one time when Kansas schools tried to force teachers to teach creationism in science classrooms and remove evolution?  Yeah, that is why we need tenure, to protect those teachers who said, thanks, but no thanks.

Remember actual history where that decision never actually made it to an on the books regulation? 

I know more than a few teachers that don't hate losing tenure... if you're confident in your abilities, you shouldn't fear having to answer them.

[Stellarcat]

I'll be honest...I have no idea how contracts work in other fields.  Do you sign a yearly contract?  Can you be let go without any reason given after having been employed for over three years?  Serious questions. 

[CNS]

No contracts.  You have a job today.....You don't tomorrow. 

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

[_33]

A lot of people talk about being able to fire bad teachers now and I guess that's a benefit.  But what about attracting competent people into the teaching field to replace them?  No job security and miserable pay might not entice as many people as you might think.

[bubbles4ksu]

i've seen two principals get fired during the school year for coming down hard on the child of a school board member. (administrators are untenured)

[_33]

School boards are made up of the worst people in society.  It's a big problem.

[Stellarcat]

No contracts.  You have a job today.....You don't tomorrow. 

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

Terrifying.

I think the entire system is jacked up.  In education, how do you determine which teachers are failing?  I've taught at three schools, and while there were clearly teachers that were superior, there were a lot that would be considered average and a few that were awful.  It was on the administration to get rid of them, and they didn't. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

A lot of people talk about being able to fire bad teachers now and I guess that's a benefit.  But what about attracting competent people into the teaching field to replace them?  No job security and miserable pay might not entice as many people as you might think.

This is a good point. If I were fresh out of college with a teaching degree, why would I take a job in Kansas when I could go to just about any other state and get better job security?

[Kat Kid]

The "step" salary schedule is another reason for teacher tenure. You don't want all the experienced teachers getting let go in favor of cheaper teachers every time there are budget cuts.

This.

[MakeItRain]

Well said KK.

Also, seems like this is the path away from step salary schedules and toward some sort of evaluation/merit pay system for teachers.

Which would be an utter disaster for the have nots in this country. Evaluation/merit pay would almost certainly be tied to test scores. So the teachers who actually want to go to struggling schools to make a difference will be deterred from doing so.

[TheHamburglar]

There's also a fundamental flaw that no one brings up with test scores.  Not every subject gets tested every year.  In OK testing scores are a part of the evaluation as an "input" but aren't hard coded into the formula.  Mrs. Hamburg teaches 7th grade.  In 7th grade they get major state tested in two subjects.  The teachers of other subjects get the average of their students two scores reported into their eval.  It takes schools going to three 2+ hour classes per day for 3-4 weeks to complete state testing just for two subjects.  It's would take 1/3 of the school year in "testing mode" to test every subject every year.

There's also the issue of teachers who teach low kids.  In her school there's an English/Reading (they combine the two) teacher that gets the kids who test low in 6th grade.  I don't think they get the full state testing in 6th grade, but through some other testing are deemed to be at a fail level within the state.  She regularly gets 40% to pass the state test.  According to the state eval she's a bad teacher and in the state's eyes there's no real previous year baseline for these kids.  The principal has to majorly fudge her evals to get them to the level she deserves.

[steve dave]

Tenure can be necessary at institutions of higher education for professors who do valuable but controversial research that pushes the boundaries of our collective knowledge and might piss off anyone from a politically connected rival professor who doesn't agree with your research to a department head to a regent and even potentially meddling politicians (i.e. Rick Perry) because it violates social mores. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of tenure at that level but providing better incentives for professors who produce higher quality research and teaching--more and better bonuses, better teaching load, better research facilities/materials to use--could help spur competition and dispel the temptation to sit on one's laurels after getting tenure.

hey, 42, I like you. high five.

[0.42]

Tenure can be necessary at institutions of higher education for professors who do valuable but controversial research that pushes the boundaries of our collective knowledge and might piss off anyone from a politically connected rival professor who doesn't agree with your research to a department head to a regent and even potentially meddling politicians (i.e. Rick Perry) because it violates social mores. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of tenure at that level but providing better incentives for professors who produce higher quality research and teaching--more and better bonuses, better teaching load, better research facilities/materials to use--could help spur competition and dispel the temptation to sit on one's laurels after getting tenure.

hey, 42, I like you. high five.

 

also KK, _33, _FAN, and MiR made some pretty compelling arguments in favor of K-12 tenure, I think y'all have helped me change my mind on that issue.

also:

School boards are made up of the worst people in society.  It's a big problem.

[ednksu]

It's impossible to have this discussion because like with most issues of this nature, for liberals there's absolutely no middle ground of any kind.   So in turn, that cements the positions of ultra-conservative knuckleheads.

Then, the rest of us are just caught in the middle and labeled.

Sad, but true.

the problem with discussing reform right now is that the system isn't working as well as it should because of bad actors.  Reforming a system, through those bad actors does nothing to fix the problem.  Kinda like gun laws, we don't need more laws, we need to enforce the ones we have.  There are already mechanisms in place to deal with bad teachers, they just aren't being used (enforced!) to correct the issue. 

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Q: If tenure is nothing more than the right to appeal your termination to an administrative review board, then why is it so hard to get rid of a tenured teacher?

A: The review board is a sham and the NEA holds all the keys, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or a nitwit.


When you have an entrenched politically powerful organization feeding of the public coffers in perpetuity, raping the state of its limited resources, all so they can earn a livelihood at their own leisure and ineptitude, you have a real fight on your hands to take that away. It's awful and evil, they are stealing from you and you want to help them.

[Kat Kid]

Q: If tenure is nothing more than the right to appeal your termination to an administrative review board, then why is it so hard to get rid of a tenured teacher?

A: The review board is a sham and the NEA holds all the keys, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or a nitwit.


When you have an entrenched politically powerful organization feeding of the public coffers in perpetuity, raping the state of its limited resources, all so they can earn a livelihood at their own leisure and ineptitude, you have a real fight on your hands to take that away. It's awful and evil, they are stealing from you and you want to help them.

Are you aware that "due process" is a procedure that is defined by each collective bargaining unit?  It is not universal.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

KK,

I wrote that, and that's your response? #takealap

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

I just took a crap in the toilet and named it "due process". Then I flushed it and now the sewer district has deprived me of due process. It's unconscionable.

[Stellarcat]

FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it. 

[Dr Rick Daris]

FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.

I wouldn't pay any attention to him. he's not even the real sugar Dick.