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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: Cire on April 07, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
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Yea or Nay
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obviously
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Good and bad.
Good for getting rid of bad teachers, bad for getting rid of good teachers....all depends on the administration.
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Tenure is the second worst thing to ever happen to education.
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i honestly have no idea what tenure is
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i honestly have no idea what tenure is
Your teachers obviously had it.
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i honestly have no idea what tenure is
Your teachers obviously had it.
Lol
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:surprised:
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99% of the time if you do your job you will be just fine. JMHO.
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Tenure is a senior academic's contractual right not to have his or her position terminated without just cause.
1. I don't believe anyone should be fired without just cause.
2. If a person has cause to be fired they should be fired.
I understand that this is not always what occurs.
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Tenure can be necessary at institutions of higher education for professors who do valuable but controversial research that pushes the boundaries of our collective knowledge and might piss off anyone from a politically connected rival professor who doesn't agree with your research to a department head to a regent and even potentially meddling politicians (i.e. Rick Perry) because it violates social mores. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of tenure at that level but providing better incentives for professors who produce higher quality research and teaching--more and better bonuses, better teaching load, better research facilities/materials to use--could help spur competition and dispel the temptation to sit on one's laurels after getting tenure.
I don't see the necessity for tenure in elementary, middle, and high schools however. At that level you're more or less sticking to a previously chosen curriculum and the latitude you're given is in the method that you present that curriculum to your students. I'd be interested to hear KK's take on it though.
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Heard a brief conversation on the radio about this this morning. It seems like they were most upset with this new Kansas bill because now a teacher can be fired without going through an administrative observation period and a hearing.
I've always had a job where you could be fired at any given moment for a variety of reasons, so this is a hard view for me to understand. However, my job performance has never relied on the success of others like a teacher's does.
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The only issue with this is that it is bound to become a method of budget reduction. Firing experienced quality teachers is the wrong answer. Not saying this is going to happen a bunch, but I don't trust the collection of idiots that usually comprise a district office to manage that correctly.
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Makes sense in higher education, but i didn't realize it was an actual thing in k12 until a few years ago. I guess I'm curious to the justification for it at that level.
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The thing that sticks me about it is the way it was passed. It gets attached to a bill that basically had to pass at the last minute. What's the motivation for that? Seems like a pretty big deal. Why not do that separately
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I mostly agree with what NickLeckey said. Bad teachers have always been able to be fired, it just requires administrators to do their job.
All "tenure" ever guaranteed was due process. In large organizations, due process is good risk management and a good check/balance on the diffusion of middle managerial power over subordinates that may harm the broad interests/mission of the large organization but advance the narrow interests of the manager at the expense of a subordinate.
I am not nearly as concerned about the development as some others, but there is a lot of uncertainty about how things will proceed in the context of the new standards/evaluation system. As has been previously mentioned by meister, test scores are being increasingly linked to teacher evaluation. If it were as simple as: show student growth, show you are teaching the standards, show that you are an asset to the school etc. that would make a lot of teachers happier.
The same people that want to decrease spending on at-risk students, decrease qualification requirements for teachers, shift funding toward private schools, (all while decrying failing public schools) want to toss out due process rights, want to strip away collective bargaining, want to defund the new common core standards.
If these people are in charge of policy? Well yeah, it might make you a bit less understanding about the many reasonable arguments that can be had about teacher quality, student outcomes and what improvements might be made through the reform of schools.
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Well said KK.
Also, seems like this is the path away from step salary schedules and toward some sort of evaluation/merit pay system for teachers.
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I agree with having tenure at the collegiate level of education. However I really don't know about the HS level and below. I had probably the worst history/government teacher in the history of teaching in HS because he was tenured. He literally gave out these 50 question study guides that nobody did other than 2 ppl, then those spread to the entire class, the tests were the exact same study guides just with the questions mixed up. If you knew the first 2 words of the questions you could get a 100% ever test, we also graded our own study guides. On the other hand I had some teachers that really did care and I actually learned a lot from them, they were also tenured. So I guess I am more in the rewarding those types of teachers and making the other ones better, I don't know how you can do that tho with the current system.
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For people wondering about why k-12 teachers NEED tenure, remember that one time when Kansas schools tried to force teachers to teach creationism in science classrooms and remove evolution? Yeah, that is why we need tenure, to protect those teachers who said, thanks, but no thanks.
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In my experience, there were some pretty bad teachers in high school but the reason they were kept around was not necessarily because they were tenured but because they were coaches.
We also had a good young teacher who was fired for some political reason (I can't remember exactly why) since she wasn't tenured yet. All the teachers in her department were against her firing, but the administration had their own agenda.
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In talking to my teacher friends around JOCO (my mother has taught for 35 years).
The older ones like my mom were fired up.
Younger ones were meh, attitude is that olathe, shawnee, blue valley and gardner are competitive enough for good teachers that they aren't going to get a bad rep for firing.
Anger was more directed at admin for not taking steps to get rid of lazy asses, as previously said they CAN get rid of people but admins don't take the time to do it.
One of them said that reports from topeka was that the moderate repubs were threatened with right winger challengers in primarys and that Koch was in the Majority leaders office as they were called in. No idea if that's true.
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The "step" salary schedule is another reason for teacher tenure. You don't want all the experienced teachers getting let go in favor of cheaper teachers every time there are budget cuts.
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It's impossible to have this discussion because like with most issues of this nature, for liberals there's absolutely no middle ground of any kind. So in turn, that cements the positions of ultra-conservative knuckleheads.
Then, the rest of us are just caught in the middle and labeled.
Sad, but true.
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It's impossible to have this discussion because like with most issues of this nature, for liberals there's absolutely no middle ground of any kind. So in turn, that cements the positions of ultra-conservative knuckleheads.
Then, the rest of us are just caught in the middle and labeled.
Sad, but true.
Luckily, there aren't any liberals or ultra-conservatives in this discussion.
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I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about the problem the legislature caused by stripping teachers of their due process rights. Underperforming teachers do not have a "job for life". First, they can be non-renewed in the first 3 years without cause. Second, administrators have a process that they can follow to remove poor teachers from their positions. Due process just means that teachers cannot be arbitrarily non-renewed without cause.
With the funding problems in schools, it is a real concern that an inexperienced teacher could replace a veteran teacher simply because that veteran teacher is making the big bucks (ha). A new administrator could be hired and arbitrarily remove teachers to make room for teachers that he or she wants. Teachers have yearly contracts, which never seemed like a big deal to me before this. Now, I could have been teaching at a school for years, had excellent reviews, parent and student support, no disciplinary issues, and....boom. Just like that, my contract could be non-renewed.
I like to think that I was a pretty good teacher, and it makes me sad that as I've been trying to decide when to go back to work, I'm pretty sure that I won't be seeking a job in the classroom. I adored my students and their families, but knowing that it could all be ripped away for any arbitrary reason...sad. And yes, I'm aware that I used the word arbitrarily a few too many times in this post, but unfortunately, that is the reality.
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If you're looking for a job outside the classroom where you can't be arbitrarily removed at the whim of a superior, you're going to be disappointed.
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If you're looking for a job outside the classroom where you can't be arbitrarily removed at the whim of a superior, you're going to be disappointed.
Yes, why are teachers a protected class? Is it because they can't find employment elsewhere if they are fired?
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like kk (i think it was) said, nearly all business have some sort of due process as a means to protect themselves legally, why should teachers not have this right as well?
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I think it would be difficult to evaluate teachers fairly and accurately, but it can be done, it's probably just a lot of work. Thus most lazy school districts just want to link teacher evaluations to standardized testing (because it's easy and cut and dry) which worries teachers b/c it's not a good representation of their work, thus they are afraid of losing their job and want protections from that threat. But I may have just made that all up and it could be wrong, can any teachercats confirm/deny?
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like kk (i think it was) said, nearly all business have some sort of due process as a means to protect themselves legally, why should teachers not have this right as well?
Some businesses have a due process type of termination policy, but most don't. There are already federal laws that prohibit termination for the obvious non-performance reasons like race, physical disability, gender, religion, etc. Some states even prohibit malice as a reason to fire someone.
What other special circumstances does a K-12 teacher need to prevent "unfair" termination?
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For people wondering about why k-12 teachers NEED tenure, remember that one time when Kansas schools tried to force teachers to teach creationism in science classrooms and remove evolution? Yeah, that is why we need tenure, to protect those teachers who said, thanks, but no thanks.
Remember actual history where that decision never actually made it to an on the books regulation?
I know more than a few teachers that don't hate losing tenure... if you're confident in your abilities, you shouldn't fear having to answer them.
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I'll be honest...I have no idea how contracts work in other fields. Do you sign a yearly contract? Can you be let go without any reason given after having been employed for over three years? Serious questions.
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No contracts. You have a job today.....You don't tomorrow.
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A lot of people talk about being able to fire bad teachers now and I guess that's a benefit. But what about attracting competent people into the teaching field to replace them? No job security and miserable pay might not entice as many people as you might think.
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i've seen two principals get fired during the school year for coming down hard on the child of a school board member. (administrators are untenured)
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School boards are made up of the worst people in society. It's a big problem.
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No contracts. You have a job today.....You don't tomorrow.
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Terrifying.
I think the entire system is jacked up. In education, how do you determine which teachers are failing? I've taught at three schools, and while there were clearly teachers that were superior, there were a lot that would be considered average and a few that were awful. It was on the administration to get rid of them, and they didn't.
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A lot of people talk about being able to fire bad teachers now and I guess that's a benefit. But what about attracting competent people into the teaching field to replace them? No job security and miserable pay might not entice as many people as you might think.
This is a good point. If I were fresh out of college with a teaching degree, why would I take a job in Kansas when I could go to just about any other state and get better job security?
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The "step" salary schedule is another reason for teacher tenure. You don't want all the experienced teachers getting let go in favor of cheaper teachers every time there are budget cuts.
This.
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Well said KK.
Also, seems like this is the path away from step salary schedules and toward some sort of evaluation/merit pay system for teachers.
Which would be an utter disaster for the have nots in this country. Evaluation/merit pay would almost certainly be tied to test scores. So the teachers who actually want to go to struggling schools to make a difference will be deterred from doing so.
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There's also a fundamental flaw that no one brings up with test scores. Not every subject gets tested every year. In OK testing scores are a part of the evaluation as an "input" but aren't hard coded into the formula. Mrs. Hamburg teaches 7th grade. In 7th grade they get major state tested in two subjects. The teachers of other subjects get the average of their students two scores reported into their eval. It takes schools going to three 2+ hour classes per day for 3-4 weeks to complete state testing just for two subjects. It's would take 1/3 of the school year in "testing mode" to test every subject every year.
There's also the issue of teachers who teach low kids. In her school there's an English/Reading (they combine the two) teacher that gets the kids who test low in 6th grade. I don't think they get the full state testing in 6th grade, but through some other testing are deemed to be at a fail level within the state. She regularly gets 40% to pass the state test. According to the state eval she's a bad teacher and in the state's eyes there's no real previous year baseline for these kids. The principal has to majorly fudge her evals to get them to the level she deserves.
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Tenure can be necessary at institutions of higher education for professors who do valuable but controversial research that pushes the boundaries of our collective knowledge and might piss off anyone from a politically connected rival professor who doesn't agree with your research to a department head to a regent and even potentially meddling politicians (i.e. Rick Perry) because it violates social mores. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of tenure at that level but providing better incentives for professors who produce higher quality research and teaching--more and better bonuses, better teaching load, better research facilities/materials to use--could help spur competition and dispel the temptation to sit on one's laurels after getting tenure.
hey, 42, I like you. high five.
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Tenure can be necessary at institutions of higher education for professors who do valuable but controversial research that pushes the boundaries of our collective knowledge and might piss off anyone from a politically connected rival professor who doesn't agree with your research to a department head to a regent and even potentially meddling politicians (i.e. Rick Perry) because it violates social mores. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of tenure at that level but providing better incentives for professors who produce higher quality research and teaching--more and better bonuses, better teaching load, better research facilities/materials to use--could help spur competition and dispel the temptation to sit on one's laurels after getting tenure.
hey, 42, I like you. high five.
:cheers:
also KK, _33, _FAN, and MiR made some pretty compelling arguments in favor of K-12 tenure, I think y'all have helped me change my mind on that issue.
also:
School boards are made up of the worst people in society. It's a big problem.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmyreactiongifs.com%2Fgifs%2Fbeardedguyheadnod.gif&hash=b1cb6282008e37b79efe9e620f81ec27223d562f)
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It's impossible to have this discussion because like with most issues of this nature, for liberals there's absolutely no middle ground of any kind. So in turn, that cements the positions of ultra-conservative knuckleheads.
Then, the rest of us are just caught in the middle and labeled.
Sad, but true.
the problem with discussing reform right now is that the system isn't working as well as it should because of bad actors. Reforming a system, through those bad actors does nothing to fix the problem. Kinda like gun laws, we don't need more laws, we need to enforce the ones we have. There are already mechanisms in place to deal with bad teachers, they just aren't being used (enforced!) to correct the issue.
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Q: If tenure is nothing more than the right to appeal your termination to an administrative review board, then why is it so hard to get rid of a tenured teacher?
A: The review board is a sham and the NEA holds all the keys, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or a nitwit.
When you have an entrenched politically powerful organization feeding of the public coffers in perpetuity, raping the state of its limited resources, all so they can earn a livelihood at their own leisure and ineptitude, you have a real fight on your hands to take that away. It's awful and evil, they are stealing from you and you want to help them.
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Q: If tenure is nothing more than the right to appeal your termination to an administrative review board, then why is it so hard to get rid of a tenured teacher?
A: The review board is a sham and the NEA holds all the keys, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or a nitwit.
When you have an entrenched politically powerful organization feeding of the public coffers in perpetuity, raping the state of its limited resources, all so they can earn a livelihood at their own leisure and ineptitude, you have a real fight on your hands to take that away. It's awful and evil, they are stealing from you and you want to help them.
Are you aware that "due process" is a procedure that is defined by each collective bargaining unit? It is not universal.
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KK,
I wrote that, and that's your response? #takealap
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I just took a crap in the toilet and named it "due process". Then I flushed it and now the sewer district has deprived me of due process. It's unconscionable.
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
I wouldn't pay any attention to him. he's not even the real sugar Dick.
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
I don't want to have anything to do with what passes as serious thought around here. It's rough ridin' pathetic, and more often than not, thoughtless regurgitated drivel.
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
I wouldn't pay any attention to him. he's not even the real sugar Dick.
Great timing, demamp
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
I don't want to have anything to do with what passes as serious thought around here. It's rough ridin' pathetic, and more often than not, thoughtless regurgitated drivel.
Yeah your boy KSU really brings out the RNC/am radio buzz topics around here.
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I was going to come on here and delete my post, because I am not one to bash people on a message board. I'm the polar opposite of my brother, Kougs. :gocho: However, since you already responded, I'll leave it. I like reading the discussion between most people on here, but life is too short to get into a pissing match.
Anyway, I apologize for calling you an a-hole.
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I am an ass hole :dunno:
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I am an ass hole :dunno:
One space away from badperson
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
I don't want to have anything to do with what passes as serious thought around here. It's rough ridin' pathetic, and more often than not, thoughtless regurgitated drivel.
Yeah your boy KSU really brings out the RNC/am radio buzz topics around here.
Your name is an epithet.
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FSD, people might be more willing to put serious thought into what you are saying if you weren't such a pompous a-hole about it.
I don't want to have anything to do with what passes as serious thought around here. It's rough ridin' pathetic, and more often than not, thoughtless regurgitated drivel.
Yeah your boy KSU really brings out the RNC/am radio buzz topics around here.
Your name is an epithet.
It's my epithet. Why do you care? Aren't you a big non PC bad person?
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Just amazing.
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well since this thread is flaming out.....
If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/
(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)
If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.
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Oh my
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well since this thread is flaming out.....
If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/
(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)
If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.
Is there any evidence Tom Edison is an actual Kansas Senator? I haven't found any.
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Tenure can be necessary at institutions of higher education for professors who do valuable but controversial research that pushes the boundaries of our collective knowledge and might piss off anyone from a politically connected rival professor who doesn't agree with your research to a department head to a regent and even potentially meddling politicians (i.e. Rick Perry) because it violates social mores. I wouldn't advocate getting rid of tenure at that level but providing better incentives for professors who produce higher quality research and teaching--more and better bonuses, better teaching load, better research facilities/materials to use--could help spur competition and dispel the temptation to sit on one's laurels after getting tenure.
hey, 42, I like you. high five.
:cheers:
also KK, _33, _FAN, and MiR made some pretty compelling arguments in favor of K-12 tenure, I think y'all have helped me change my mind on that issue.
Those are all very smart people who would know more about the K-12 stuff than I would and I trust their judgement on that as well.
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
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well since this thread is flaming out.....
If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/
(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)
If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.
holy crap, what a bunch of morons.
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well since this thread is flaming out.....
If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/
(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)
If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.
holy crap, what a bunch of morons.
That's fake news.
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
yeah.
also though this..."SUMMERS OFF, HUH? MUST BE NICE!"
my argument to that is, then go be a teacher you freaking dork and stop hur hurring about it. go do it if you think it's so great. i had friends that wouldn't tip in college because they thought waitresses, bartenders, etc. made too much. their argument was hey i paint for my job and i only make eight bucks an hour and i guarantee it's harder then what they do, but yet they make more. i was always like, then go wait tables and quit your painting job if you think it's so great. nobody is stopping you.
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well since this thread is flaming out.....
If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/
(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)
If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.
I bet they giggle like little school girls when someone important quotes one of their stories.
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How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
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How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
I know several who have been laid off. Usually they've gotten a few months notice at least, but layoffs and firings happen all the time in the real world. There is absolutely no valid reason for tenure in K-12 education.
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How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
Worked for a large corp for the first 7yrs out of KSU. Happened often. Security watches them pack then escorts them out. I have also seen several coworkers put through a review period only to have the reviewer set goals that are not black and white and completely subjective, then fire someone 4-6wks later for them not meeting the subjective goals set during the review period. This actually happened to an old boss of mine who did his job just fine but was scapegoat'ed to please a client that thought he was wronged by my bosses boss but did a lot of work with out company.
Note: many of the former very much deserved it. This isn't an argument for tenure. Just a note that it does actually happen.
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How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
Ever heard of aircraft companies?
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How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
Worked for a large corp for the first 7yrs out of KSU. Happened often. Security watches them pack then escorts them out. I have also seen several coworkers put through a review period only to have the reviewer set goals that are not black and white and completely subjective, then fire someone 4-6wks later for them not meeting the subjective goals set during the review period. This actually happened to an old boss of mine who did his job just fine but was scapegoat'ed to please a client that thought he was wronged by my bosses boss but did a lot of work with out company.
Note: many of the former very much deserved it. This isn't an argument for tenure. Just a note that it does actually happen.
That happens in ed. too.How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
I know several who have been laid off. Usually they've gotten a few months notice at least, but layoffs and firings happen all the time in the real world. There is absolutely no valid reason for tenure in K-12 education.
teachers get let go and fired in Kansas every year as well. Do you disagree with that?
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How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
Worked for a large corp for the first 7yrs out of KSU. Happened often. Security watches them pack then escorts them out. I have also seen several coworkers put through a review period only to have the reviewer set goals that are not black and white and completely subjective, then fire someone 4-6wks later for them not meeting the subjective goals set during the review period. This actually happened to an old boss of mine who did his job just fine but was scapegoat'ed to please a client that thought he was wronged by my bosses boss but did a lot of work with out company.
Note: many of the former very much deserved it. This isn't an argument for tenure. Just a note that it does actually happen.
That happens in ed. too.How many people in the private sector know someone that walked into work and was told they no longer had a job?
Excluding restaurants/food industry/retail etc.
I know several who have been laid off. Usually they've gotten a few months notice at least, but layoffs and firings happen all the time in the real world. There is absolutely no valid reason for tenure in K-12 education.
teachers get let go and fired in Kansas every year as well. Do you disagree with that?
No, that's true. But it's also true that some teachers have "tenure" based upon seniority. It all depends upon what the unions (usually) have negotiated. I have a relative, for example, who is a relatively new elemtary teacher. She is constantly worried about being laid off because the structure they have rigidly protects seniority over quality. They actually have a list, called a RIF List (Reduction in Force) that lines them all up by seniority, and they fire from the bottom up if necessary. The teachers also have all sorts of protections built in that makes it very hard to fire anyone except for RIF purposes. You have to through hearings, an entire administrative review procedure, etc.
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The 2008 San Diego USD teacher of the year was laid off simply because the union rule is last
first hired - first fired.
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The 2008 San Diego USD teacher of the year was laid off simply because the union rule is first hired - first fired.
That is a very strange rule. Usually the new employees are the first fired.
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The 2008 San Diego USD teacher of the year was laid off simply because the union rule is first hired - first fired.
That is a very strange rule. Usually the new employees are the first fired.
:facepalm: damn you Freud! :shakesfist:
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Cire, I am sure you are right about it happening in ed, but my wife has been teaching something like 12 years in one district and has never even heard of it happening.
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well since this thread is flaming out.....
If FSD and his anti-intellectual ilk ran everything, this story would be true
http://nationalreport.net/kansas-black-cosmos-show-controversies/
(those goes back to KS evolution/creationism thing I noted earlier)
If you want to be informed about this issue people, go back and read Stellarcat's posts, home run material.
holy crap, what a bunch of morons.
That's fake news.
Stuff like this really validates my aforesaid position regarding the pit.
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
It's not any less lazy or justified than simply stating being a teacher is "just not the same," which is your dumbass unfounded position.
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
same people that equate running a government with running a household
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
same people that equate running a government with running a household
I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
same people that equate running a government with running a household
I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!
lol
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
It's not any less lazy or justified than simply stating being a teacher is "just not the same," which is your dumbass unfounded position.
double lol
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
same people that equate running a government with running a household
I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!
The year round pay always gets me.
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As far as teachers not getting fired often. That is a good thing. Can you imagine the uproar if teachers were being fired all the time?
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As far as teachers not getting fired often. That is a good thing. Can you imagine the uproar if teachers were being fired all the time?
No. Firing somebody for doing a lousy job doesn't seem that strange to me.
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Guys, being a teacher is not the same as a regular job because you get paid an annual salary for 9 months worth of work, and your pay and promotion comes regardless of the measurable failure your work has on the people you provide your "professional" service to. Obviously teachers need far greater work place protection, otherwise nobody would want to do the job. I mean, teachers didn't even exist until tenure came about and they were basically considered bums, rather than pillars of the community, until tenure came about. The NEA is an altruistic collection of individuals dedicated to the advancement of society, not a bunch of people trying to collectively bargain for greater wages, benefits and job security than people of a similar skill set could ever hope for. Anyone who disagrees with me clearly doesn't get it and is probably anti-intellectual and Anti-society because I say so and am too rough ridin' stupid and lazy to cobble together a coherent argument to justify my illogical unrealistic preconceived notion of what exactly is going on here.
- Serious Thought on goE
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Guys, being a teacher is not the same as a regular job because you get paid an annual salary for 9 months worth of work, and your pay and promotion comes regardless of the measurable failure your work has on the people you provide your "professional" service to. Obviously teachers need far greater work place protection, otherwise nobody would want to do the job. I mean, teachers didn't even exist until tenure came about and they were basically considered bums, rather than pillars of the community, until tenure came about. The NEA is an altruistic collection of individuals dedicated to the advancement of society, not a bunch of people trying to collectively bargain for greater wages, benefits and job security than people of a similar skill set could ever hope for. Anyone who disagrees with me clearly doesn't get it and is probably anti-intellectual and Anti-society because I say so and am too rough ridin' stupid and lazy to cobble together a coherent argument to justify my illogical unrealistic preconceived notion of what exactly is going on here.
- Serious Thought on goE
If you count thanksgiving break, christmas break, spring break etc its probably closer to eight months.
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would it be better for discussion if we just pretended they were hourly employees or something? i'm not 100% certain we're dealing with HR going "oh eff, didn't realize doug has only been working 30hrs/wk"
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As far as teachers not getting fired often. That is a good thing. Can you imagine the uproar if teachers were being fired all the time?
No. Firing somebody for doing a lousy job doesn't seem that strange to me.
I'm interested to know what your measure is for "lousy job" and who are all of these administrators keeping teachers they consider lousy.
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wish I could get tenure in my profession :shakesfist:
Must be nice
ahhh, the old "sure wish i/must be nice" talking point. one of the worst ever, for sure.
the argument that primary/secondary/higher education should be run like any other private business is always good for truckloads of unintentional hilarity. 99% of the time it boils down to:
"I TOOK A FEW CLASSES IN COLLEGE WHICH MAKES ME AN EXPERT ON HOW EDUCATION WORKS ESPECIALLY SINCE I HAD A BAD PROFESSOR PUT THE WHOLE SYSTEM ON TRIAL RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE"
same people that equate running a government with running a household
I mean you work your ass off for a few years and become "tenured". Then it's smooth sailing the rest of your life. If that isn't good enough, then just imagine not working for 1/3 of the entire year and still getting paid for it!!
Oh man, I had almost forgotten that you were Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).
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Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms. Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world. I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class. I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year. She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out. That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.
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The education system is failing and it has nothing to do with the teachers, guys. Stop being so naive. The problem is people thinking teachers is a business and money spent should yield a modicum of result. Not so, in fact what we really need to do is put more money in teachers pensions, make the NEA mandatory, make it impossible to fire a teacher and implement card check. These are the altruistic values the teaching profession was founded on and will guide us into an period of enlightenment.That's the pro - intellectual and pro - society stance and it's unassailable.
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Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms. Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world. I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class. I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year. She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out. That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.
the hamburglar went to seaman also? :surprised:
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pods in poundtown, about to be torn down
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Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms. Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world. I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class. I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year. She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out. That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.
the hamburglar went to seaman also? :surprised:
Negative, his description can only be that of salina south highschool
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Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms. Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world. I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class. I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year. She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out. That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.
the hamburglar went to seaman also? :surprised:
Salina South
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Most of the time administrators have no clue what's actually happening in their classrooms. Most of that is because they're too busy dealing with bullshit and their supervisor-to-employee ratio is way off base with the rest of the professional world. I went to a high school where 90% of the classrooms only had 3 walls and were completely open to the hallway and I could count on my fingers how many times each year I saw an administrator while sitting in class. I just asked Mrs. Hamburg how many times an administrator has been in her room this year. She said maybe 4 and 3 of them were for less than 2 minutes to pull a kid out. That's in a school of just one grade in a suburb considered to be one of the two best districts/wealthiest in a metro area of 1,000,000.
the hamburglar went to seaman also? :surprised:
Negative, his description can only be that of salina south highschool
No, it could definitely also be a description of seaman high school. Even though it's not.