Author Topic: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)  (Read 17420 times)

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Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2024, 02:09:19 PM »
Mich, you are very well versed with the data for transgender peeps obviously. Is there much data on people that made that decision when they were younger and regret the decision as they were older and/or want to transition back?

Offline michigancat

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #76 on: November 08, 2024, 03:03:54 PM »
Mich, you are very well versed with the data for transgender peeps obviously. Is there much data on people that made that decision when they were younger and regret the decision as they were older and/or want to transition back?

I haven't looked into the details in a while, but this seems like a decent recent overview about the data and the complexity of measuring "regret":

https://slate.com/technology/2024/02/transgender-youth-health-care-regret-pamela-paul-nyt-data.html

Asking about the data shows your head is in the right place IMO. I've said it before, but I believe if data shows current standard methods of transgender care are not leading positive outcomes, the standards should change. Until then, I'll leave it to the trans kids, their families and medical professionals to make the decisions they think are best.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #77 on: November 08, 2024, 03:47:36 PM »
Mich, you are very well versed with the data for transgender peeps obviously. Is there much data on people that made that decision when they were younger and regret the decision as they were older and/or want to transition back?

I haven't looked into the details in a while, but this seems like a decent recent overview about the data and the complexity of measuring "regret":

https://slate.com/technology/2024/02/transgender-youth-health-care-regret-pamela-paul-nyt-data.html

Asking about the data shows your head is in the right place IMO. I've said it before, but I believe if data shows current standard methods of transgender care are not leading positive outcomes, the standards should change. Until then, I'll leave it to the trans kids, their families and medical professionals to make the decisions they think are best.
I do agree and I don't think any parent or medical professional (or would hopefully assume) would pressure or coarse a child into transitioning. Obviously, we were all teenagers at one point and those are interesting/confusing years to say the least!

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2024, 03:49:54 PM »
Common ground
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2024, 04:40:27 PM »
Mich, you are very well versed with the data for transgender peeps obviously. Is there much data on people that made that decision when they were younger and regret the decision as they were older and/or want to transition back?

I haven't looked into the details in a while, but this seems like a decent recent overview about the data and the complexity of measuring "regret":

https://slate.com/technology/2024/02/transgender-youth-health-care-regret-pamela-paul-nyt-data.html

Asking about the data shows your head is in the right place IMO. I've said it before, but I believe if data shows current standard methods of transgender care are not leading positive outcomes, the standards should change. Until then, I'll leave it to the trans kids, their families and medical professionals to make the decisions they think are best.
I do agree and I don't think any parent or medical professional (or would hopefully assume) would pressure or coarse a child into transitioning. Obviously, we were all teenagers at one point and those are interesting/confusing years to say the least!

I'm very close to the parents of a transgender kid and it's really hard for the entire family, and it was a long process with lots of difficult conversations. And this kid didn't even take hormones at any point in the transition.

I think there is a perception that parents of transgender kids are all purple haired weirdo they/them freaks but that's usually not the case. They are usually just "normal" parents who love their children and want what's best for them.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2024, 04:44:03 PM »
a lot of people believe lgtbq kids can be influenced to be lgtbq by their parents, teachers, friends, etc. and it's scary to them. so that sucks.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2024, 06:33:01 PM »
a lot of people believe lgtbq kids can be influenced to be lgtbq by their parents, teachers, friends, etc. and it's scary to them. so that sucks.

My theory is that what really bothers them isn't that that friends and teachers and parents make them LGBT, it's that those people make it easier and safer to be LGBT
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 06:37:46 PM by michigancat »

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2024, 08:12:24 PM »
a lot of people believe lgtbq kids can be influenced to be lgtbq by their parents, teachers, friends, etc. and it's scary to them. so that sucks.

My theory is that what really bothers them isn't that that friends and teachers and parents make them LGBT, it's that those people make it easier and safer to be LGBT
I think the “social contagion” theory is most of it.  When you combine that with the US’s aggressive approach to “gender affirming care” (in all its forms, but particularly things like puberty blockers) for minors, I think there’s some legitimate concern, rather than “we want to make lgbt kids feel unsafe.”

“Heck, my little sister was a tomboy, but now she’d be told by her shrink she IS a boy!” is the unsophisticated version of the above point, but I think it drives at the same general idea.

How much that’s actually happening (puberty blockers, influencing gender identity) isn’t really the point - I think the defense of and fight against that idea is a stark dividing line that dems could gain ground on if they wanted to soften their position.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 08:26:08 PM by DQ12 »


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2024, 08:16:25 PM »
a lot of people believe lgtbq kids can be influenced to be lgtbq by their parents, teachers, friends, etc. and it's scary to them. so that sucks.

My theory is that what really bothers them isn't that that friends and teachers and parents make them LGBT, it's that those people make it easier and safer to be LGBT

yeah, probably subconciously that's right

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2024, 09:54:56 PM »
a lot of people believe lgtbq kids can be influenced to be lgtbq by their parents, teachers, friends, etc. and it's scary to them. so that sucks.

My theory is that what really bothers them isn't that that friends and teachers and parents make them LGBT, it's that those people make it easier and safer to be LGBT
I think the “social contagion” theory is most of it.  When you combine that with the US’s aggressive approach to “gender affirming care” (in all its forms, but particularly things like puberty blockers) for minors, I think there’s some legitimate concern, rather than “we want to make lgbt kids feel unsafe.”

“Heck, my little sister was a tomboy, but now she’d be told by her shrink she IS a boy!” is the unsophisticated version of the above point, but I think it drives at the same general idea.

How much that’s actually happening (puberty blockers, influencing gender identity) isn’t really the point - I think the defense of and fight against that idea is a stark dividing line that dems could gain ground on if they wanted to soften their position.

But it kinda is the point, though.
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Online steve dave

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Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2024, 10:04:33 PM »
Those thousands of examples got a lot of cable news and political ads this cycle.


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2024, 10:16:07 PM »
a lot of people believe lgtbq kids can be influenced to be lgtbq by their parents, teachers, friends, etc. and it's scary to them. so that sucks.

My theory is that what really bothers them isn't that that friends and teachers and parents make them LGBT, it's that those people make it easier and safer to be LGBT
I think the “social contagion” theory is most of it.  When you combine that with the US’s aggressive approach to “gender affirming care” (in all its forms, but particularly things like puberty blockers) for minors, I think there’s some legitimate concern, rather than “we want to make lgbt kids feel unsafe.”

“Heck, my little sister was a tomboy, but now she’d be told by her shrink she IS a boy!” is the unsophisticated version of the above point, but I think it drives at the same general idea.

How much that’s actually happening (puberty blockers, influencing gender identity) isn’t really the point - I think the defense of and fight against that idea is a stark dividing line that dems could gain ground on if they wanted to soften their position.

But it kinda is the point, though.
Not if the left is trying to win the creamy middle


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2024, 10:40:44 PM »
IMO there's a chance to win the middle with data on outcomes and information from  health experts combined with an element of "we aren't going to tell you how to care for your kids - it's between you and your doctors. Parents know their kids best and should do what they think is best for them, not what the government thinks is best for them". I might be wrong but again, it can't be worse than how it was messaged by Dems this last election

I also think a big reason the thought of kids transitioning is scary to so many people is that they really don't understand the transition process (or how often it happens). In my experience it's very serious and methodical and is not boys going to school one day and getting surgery and coming home as girls.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2024, 10:46:23 PM »
IMO there's a chance to win the middle with data on outcomes and information from  health experts combined with an element of "we aren't going to tell you how to care for your kids - it's between you and your doctors. Parents know their kids best and should do what they think is best for them, not what the government thinks is best for them".
Then the left needs to rethink the “teachers don’t need to tell parents if the kid’s gender identity at school is different” issue, which is explicitly the opposite of that “parents know better than the state argument.”  I’m paraphrasing the issue but I hope you know what I mean.


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2024, 12:38:17 AM »
IMO there's a chance to win the middle with data on outcomes and information from  health experts combined with an element of "we aren't going to tell you how to care for your kids - it's between you and your doctors. Parents know their kids best and should do what they think is best for them, not what the government thinks is best for them".
Then the left needs to rethink the “teachers don’t need to tell parents if the kid’s gender identity at school is different” issue, which is explicitly the opposite of that “parents know better than the state argument.”  I’m paraphrasing the issue but I hope you know what I mean.

Why should a teacher assume that you are such a shitty parent that you don't even know your own kid's gender? I would think that the parents would figure all of that out if they would even care enough to go to parent teacher conferences, anyway.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2024, 05:49:02 AM »
IMO there's a chance to win the middle with data on outcomes and information from  health experts combined with an element of "we aren't going to tell you how to care for your kids - it's between you and your doctors. Parents know their kids best and should do what they think is best for them, not what the government thinks is best for them".
Then the left needs to rethink the “teachers don’t need to tell parents if the kid’s gender identity at school is different” issue, which is explicitly the opposite of that “parents know better than the state argument.”  I’m paraphrasing the issue but I hope you know what I mean.

I hear you, at the very least, the messaging on schools not telling parents needs to be improved. I mean to start it should be clear that the school won't be administering hormone therapy, just providing a safe-ish space for social transition. I went to look for data on how often this happens and didn't find any but instead found this thread, which has some useful perspectives:

https://www.reddit.com/r/trans/s/BwjGmtm1hY

Quote
1. Schools should not place kids in danger.
2. Schools are not in a position to know about or evaluate the potential danger to a kid if that kid's parents find out they're queer.
3. Therefore, schools should not share (or be compelled to share) information about a kid's LGBTQ+ status with parents.

It was obviously all anecdotes, including a few about being outed by their school and it leading to abuse at home. It also leads to some questions about the parent/school/child relationships:

Should the state out a trans child that doesn't want to be outed?

How much autonomy should a child have in a decision to out their identity to some communities but not their parents?

Should a school out a child who is gay to parents?

Should a school tell a parent if a child is dating someone, even if it's a hetero relationship?

So I think in terms of who knows best, it's probably:

The child
The medical professionals
Parents
School/government

I also understand how that's more difficult to message than "parents know best". Need to think about it some more.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2024, 06:45:19 AM »
Here's an interesting thread from a teacher's perspective

https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/s/3koxuzKhDd

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Offline 114Hickory

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2024, 07:07:21 AM »
IMO there's a chance to win the middle with data on outcomes and information from  health experts combined with an element of "we aren't going to tell you how to care for your kids - it's between you and your doctors. Parents know their kids best and should do what they think is best for them, not what the government thinks is best for them".
Then the left needs to rethink the “teachers don’t need to tell parents if the kid’s gender identity at school is different” issue, which is explicitly the opposite of that “parents know better than the state argument.”  I’m paraphrasing the issue but I hope you know what I mean.

I hear you, at the very least, the messaging on schools not telling parents needs to be improved. I mean to start it should be clear that the school won't be administering hormone therapy, just providing a safe-ish space for social transition. I went to look for data on how often this happens and didn't find any but instead found this thread, which has some useful perspectives:

https://www.reddit.com/r/trans/s/BwjGmtm1hY

Quote
1. Schools should not place kids in danger.
2. Schools are not in a position to know about or evaluate the potential danger to a kid if that kid's parents find out they're queer.
3. Therefore, schools should not share (or be compelled to share) information about a kid's LGBTQ+ status with parents.

It was obviously all anecdotes, including a few about being outed by their school and it leading to abuse at home. It also leads to some questions about the parent/school/child relationships:

Should the state out a trans child that doesn't want to be outed?

How much autonomy should a child have in a decision to out their identity to some communities but not their parents?

Should a school out a child who is gay to parents?

Should a school tell a parent if a child is dating someone, even if it's a hetero relationship?

So I think in terms of who knows best, it's probably:

The child
The medical professionals
Parents
School/government

I also understand how that's more difficult to message than "parents know best". Need to think about it some more.

I agree with a lot of this, in principle.  I believe there are some other factors that could be considered.

1.  I would maybe reframe "who knows best" with "whose knowledge is most accurate."
2.  I would also determine, as much as possible, the entity with the greatest stake in the child's well-being if I were to place these in an order of importance.  An argument could likely be made for each of those you mentioned.
3.  I believe it's important to keep variables in mind such as the child's intrapersonal development of identity/self-concept, biases/presuppositions of medical professionals, parents, and government, and the desired outcomes all entities work toward regardless of research-based findings.
4.  The safety of the child, obviously, needs to be paramount.  So, attitudes and outlooks of each of the entities mentioned must be part of the process.  The problem is, these are often kept well-hidden and rarely fully disclosed.

Having said all of that, I would like to see everyone in any decision-making position regarding transgender children (including parents/guardians) be much more forthright about their own processes and policies, biases, etc. I see no value in trotting out anecdotes of extreme cases or touting anything as "absolute" in the soft sciences, which much of this is.  The DSM has changed considerably over the years based on new data.  Everyone is still learning and admitting that, inviting reasoned discussion, and moving toward the well-being of the children, as opposed to getting a win, would enhance healthy outcomes for everyone.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 08:14:10 AM by 114Hickory »

Offline michigancat

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2024, 05:21:04 PM »


The DSM has changed considerably over the years based on new data.  Everyone is still learning and admitting that, inviting reasoned discussion, and moving toward the well-being of the children, as opposed to getting a win, would enhance healthy outcomes for everyone.

Well said. It's too bad political leaders can't talk like that

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2024, 09:06:45 AM »
I hope everyone gets what they voted for.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2024, 09:12:19 AM »
“Crucial policies” as designed by the lets mutilate (and sex up) the kids complex.


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« Last Edit: November 10, 2024, 09:30:55 AM by sonofdaxjones »

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2024, 09:22:24 AM »
Good point, dax.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2024, 09:30:25 AM »
Yes, yes they are good points.


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