Author Topic: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)  (Read 2321 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55127
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« on: November 07, 2024, 11:45:53 AM »
https://x.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1854577726411173951

https://x.com/JoshKraushaar/status/1854518313654821239

How can the left treat transgender people like humans and still win elections? Jesse Kelly is correct that it's a tiny population that a lot of people think is gross. But they are still humans that deserve rights, no?


(Want to get rid of the ad? Register now for free!)

Offline Stupid Fitz

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5704
  • Go Cats
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2024, 11:55:38 AM »
A big part of it is just how great the R political machine is. They can just sit around a wait for the Ds to do or embrace something and attack it to death. This riles up the social media folks and gets them involved and voting and they know the rest of the Rs are going to vote with them no matter what. The transgender thing obviously helped and was working. Most of the ads didn't even make any sense. They just added transgender people or taglines to their commercials. The right is great at this.

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55127
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2024, 11:56:17 AM »
One thing I think is the pronouns in bio need to stop. it really triggers snowflakes and doesn't add a ton of "human rights" value IMO.

I think they would be better off taking a strong stance for transgender kids in sports. I think we saw that taking a strong stance of "protecting these people is the right thing to do" can be effective if you look at how the NC bathroom bill was handled. If you ignore it or try to move to the right on it, 'pubs will hound you to death over it.

Note I think this is a recurring problem for Kamala's campaign - it doesn't matter if Kamala says she's pro-fracking and owns a glock, she's still going to be anti-oil and anti-gun so you might as well take a better principled stance.

Offline Stupid Fitz

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5704
  • Go Cats
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2024, 12:03:18 PM »
One thing I think is the pronouns in bio need to stop. it really triggers snowflakes and doesn't add a ton of "human rights" value IMO.

I think they would be better off taking a strong stance for transgender kids in sports. I think we saw that taking a strong stance of "protecting these people is the right thing to do" can be effective if you look at how the NC bathroom bill was handled. If you ignore it or try to move to the right on it, 'pubs will hound you to death over it.

Note I think this is a recurring problem for Kamala's campaign - it doesn't matter if Kamala says she's pro-fracking and owns a glock, she's still going to be anti-oil and anti-gun so you might as well take a better principled stance.

Agree, but we've talked about this in other threads. A D could literally show off their gun case while conducting the sermon at their local anti abortion church and the Right would be able to convince their side none of it is true. If a "more principled stance" means being more progressive or left, they will lose the middle. Again, R's don't care. They will obviously vote R no matter who is running. The democrats have to figure out how to get everyone motivated. I'm honestly not sure how they do it.

Offline hjfklmor

  • Combo-Fan
  • **
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2024, 12:09:55 PM »
A big part of it is just how great the R political machine is. They can just sit around a wait for the Ds to do or embrace something and attack it to death. This riles up the social media folks and gets them involved and voting and they know the rest of the Rs are going to vote with them no matter what. The transgender thing obviously helped and was working. Most of the ads didn't even make any sense. They just added transgender people or taglines to their commercials. The right is great at this.

I don't even see how you can say the Ds embraced this issue. Harris seemed to actively avoid discussing it. Same with pronouns in bios - I don't recall any of that talk from the campaign or its messaging. They get hammered by these issues and the wild things some leftists say and do online, and have to answer, politically, for stances they've never made. Meanwhile Republicans seemingly don't have to answer for the wild crap the politicians themselves actually say. I don't really know how you solve that problem.

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55127
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2024, 12:11:46 PM »
I don't think you lose the middle by taking a more progressive stance with guns

I think you can be anti-fracking in PA if you talk about the environmental impact and have plans in place to help the local economies supported by fracking

With transgenders it's definitely trickier, but I think if you start by focusing on "how about we let these law-abiding humans who hurt absolutely no one live normal human lives in peace" and highlight the cruelty Jesse Kelly is espousing you can limit the damage at least

I keep going back to the bathroom bill response.

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55127
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2024, 12:13:59 PM »
A big part of it is just how great the R political machine is. They can just sit around a wait for the Ds to do or embrace something and attack it to death. This riles up the social media folks and gets them involved and voting and they know the rest of the Rs are going to vote with them no matter what. The transgender thing obviously helped and was working. Most of the ads didn't even make any sense. They just added transgender people or taglines to their commercials. The right is great at this.

I don't even see how you can say the Ds embraced this issue. Harris seemed to actively avoid discussing it. Same with pronouns in bios - I don't recall any of that talk from the campaign or its messaging. They get hammered by these issues and the wild things some leftists say and do online, and have to answer, politically, for stances they've never made. Meanwhile Republicans seemingly don't have to answer for the wild crap the politicians themselves actually say. I don't really know how you solve that problem.

they did have a pretty rough clip of her saying "convicted criminals should get sex change operations". politicians can't be doing that. They should be saying "Health care is between a patient and physician, even among prisoners because we aren't a cruel nation". (obviously have someone jazz it up a bit.

Offline Stupid Fitz

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5704
  • Go Cats
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2024, 12:15:47 PM »
A big part of it is just how great the R political machine is. They can just sit around a wait for the Ds to do or embrace something and attack it to death. This riles up the social media folks and gets them involved and voting and they know the rest of the Rs are going to vote with them no matter what. The transgender thing obviously helped and was working. Most of the ads didn't even make any sense. They just added transgender people or taglines to their commercials. The right is great at this.

I don't even see how you can say the Ds embraced this issue. Harris seemed to actively avoid discussing it. Same with pronouns in bios - I don't recall any of that talk from the campaign or its messaging. They get hammered by these issues and the wild things some leftists say and do online, and have to answer, politically, for stances they've never made. Meanwhile Republicans seemingly don't have to answer for the wild crap the politicians themselves actually say. I don't really know how you solve that problem.

yep, see my post above. I have no idea either. Trump can say whatever crazy crap he wants. There was a meme a while back that is spot on. Transgender person "I just want to be who I am". Republican "Stop shoving this stuff in our faces!!!!!!!!" I never saw one ad about this issue from Ds. It was in every R commercial. They are very good at this stuff.

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55127
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2024, 12:18:47 PM »
clearly, taking no stance isn't a solution

Offline sonofdaxjones

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 56445
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2024, 12:20:39 PM »
If anyone disagrees with us it's an attack

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15610
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2024, 12:27:10 PM »
I am actually a big fan of pronouns in signatures because a lot of people have androgynous names.

I do, however, continue to feel it’s ridiculous to list more than one. Why do “he/him/his” when you can just do “he.” Pick either he, she, they, or leave it blank, imo.

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 10319
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2024, 12:33:59 PM »
Good topic cause I think it speaks to one of the many issues dems have to figure out of simultaneously supporting transgendered/gay rights while not making it feel front and center. And I guess in general I think this goes into the river of broader topic of identity politics. Like I totally get the purpose/idea of identity politics, empowering minorities who have been shuttered and closed out of power (and often still are) and celebrating that accomplishment. And obviously resistance to that can often and correctly take the form of adject racism/homophobia/etc, but I think it's important to really examine the damage it's doing to driving people away. Note, I am not really sure of any answers, and what I am about to say is anecdotes from what I have observed, but I think it's important in dissecting the general resistance from the other side to stuff like this.

In short I agree with the Jesse Kelly take tbh. Working out in the field next to a lot of guys who'd support trump if they could (from Canada) or would get riled up about it you get to see their side of it, or why they feel the way they do about stuff like this, and frankly this is what dems gotta do in order to win the working class back.

I think what is lost in the conversation (and you see articles/discussions dancing around this), is when someone doesn't like transgendered or gay or whatever, they are automatically anti-gay, or anti-trangendered, or whatever, when they simply maybe uncomfortable with it no differently than someone maybe uncomfortable with talking about politics at work. It doesn't make them anti-politics, they just aren't going to something in a place that is not really for that. It's rather benign angst. But once you label it against them, then you draw a hard line in the sand, and well, it's hard to come back from that, and they embrace being against something they already were not a fan of. Hence their feelings about it being talked about in school. You're forcing their hand to have to accept, to have to do this, when it's often shades of acceptance.

Most I think are generally ok with someone being transgendered, live and let live, but to them they see this as why do I have to declare it, why do I have to even think about, I maybe see one never or barely ever, why is this something I now have to consider. It's just extra noise in an already chaotic life to them, and realistically for most people. They have food they need to put on the table, they got bills to pay, why is this even something we got to talk about on a national scale (to them).

Like anecdotally from election night I remember when the Delaware race for the house was called and they specifically called it out amongst all the other 435 house races they could talk about how important it was to celebrate a transgendered person being elected to congress. If a trumper was there you could easily hear a slur, but in general I think the collective groan that person would have would manifest as more as "omg who cares!" And if they were able to articulate it more "omg who cares, all I want to know is what this person believes in or is going to do for me, I literally don't want to know or think anymore about this." And that is how they feel. so to Jesse's point, it's like an unnecessary poking of a bear.

It's taking a very personal journey of growth and acceptance and making it feel or act like policy when it simply doesn't matter to them and there are 1834582 problems that need to be solved rather than wondering of this person should play against boys or girls.

Do I want people to care and be more compassionate? Absolutely. Should people feel accepted, 100%. Should it guide policy, these elections seem to say no. How do we still make people feel accepted on a national scale? IDK, probably just talk more about actually being inclusive while not making it defining. Supportive but not discussed much. Still perosnally workshopping that.
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater with a tesla


Offline hjfklmor

  • Combo-Fan
  • **
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2024, 12:35:30 PM »
A big part of it is just how great the R political machine is. They can just sit around a wait for the Ds to do or embrace something and attack it to death. This riles up the social media folks and gets them involved and voting and they know the rest of the Rs are going to vote with them no matter what. The transgender thing obviously helped and was working. Most of the ads didn't even make any sense. They just added transgender people or taglines to their commercials. The right is great at this.

I don't even see how you can say the Ds embraced this issue. Harris seemed to actively avoid discussing it. Same with pronouns in bios - I don't recall any of that talk from the campaign or its messaging. They get hammered by these issues and the wild things some leftists say and do online, and have to answer, politically, for stances they've never made. Meanwhile Republicans seemingly don't have to answer for the wild crap the politicians themselves actually say. I don't really know how you solve that problem.

they did have a pretty rough clip of her saying "convicted criminals should get sex change operations". politicians can't be doing that. They should be saying "Health care is between a patient and physician, even among prisoners because we aren't a cruel nation". (obviously have someone jazz it up a bit.

This is not really the context of this thread but my frustration lies in Harris taking heat for that clip (understandably, I suppose, given the feelings of the general populace on this issue) but then Trump saying things like we need to root out the enemy within and it not mattering even slightly. One side needs to tread so lightly and be aware that "politicians can't be doing that" and the other gets to rant about Jewish space lasers.

Again, not the point of this thread and I have no ideas. Just venting I suppose.

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 66007
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2024, 12:41:15 PM »
Dax claims his daughter is gay and he still says horrible things about lgbt people being predators and pedophiles. Usually a personal connection is what tears down this sort of hate and ignorance but this is issue hits different for some reason.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 66007
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2024, 12:53:51 PM »
As far as transgenders specifically, I think progressives just were in their bubble thinking that transgender people are "normal" in the rest of the country. I'd liken the public sentiment to be close to what it was for gays in the 90's and 00's. 25 years in the future and I'd expect the issue to be resolved (not universally of course, gay people still have a struggle to be treated humanely by many people but it's insanely different from when I was a kid).
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55127
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2024, 01:01:11 PM »
Most I think are generally ok with someone being transgendered, live and let live, but to them they see this as why do I have to declare it, why do I have to even think about, I maybe see one never or barely ever, why is this something I now have to consider. It's just extra noise in an already chaotic life to them, and realistically for most people. They have food they need to put on the table, they got bills to pay, why is this even something we got to talk about on a national scale (to them).

overall I enjoyed your post but this stuck out to me as questions a transgender could ask as well! They don't want to consider if they can get the health care they need or play a sport. they just want to live their lives. Maybe some want to be in the face of conservatives, but I doubt many do.

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 10319
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2024, 01:06:09 PM »
Also a few more thoughts,

I think with this R's are good at making this a false trolley problem, and remember the ads are made to inflame, but if basic home economic stuff aren't being considered then you aren't seeing the choice made in front of them. Not able to put food on the table? Well those dems are only offering support to these *pick a group*. And that person is making that choose to pull the level onto that group every time.

And yeah, that messaging trump has of they/them vs you is perfect, as it's specific to the voter, and paints the dems as only supporting a small, small sect. In general if a dem is asked "do you support *pick a group* the answer is my policies support all groups, that group, white, black, Latino, gay and straight, this is about us."
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater with a tesla


Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 10319
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2024, 01:20:57 PM »
Most I think are generally ok with someone being transgendered, live and let live, but to them they see this as why do I have to declare it, why do I have to even think about, I maybe see one never or barely ever, why is this something I now have to consider. It's just extra noise in an already chaotic life to them, and realistically for most people. They have food they need to put on the table, they got bills to pay, why is this even something we got to talk about on a national scale (to them).

overall I enjoyed your post but this stuck out to me as questions a transgender could ask as well! They don't want to consider if they can get the health care they need or play a sport. they just want to live their lives. Maybe some want to be in the face of conservatives, but I doubt many do.

Absolutely, in a different way (and not to make this about climate change, just messaging) it's like voicing support for renewables as "home grown" or "onsite energy production" or "energy independence", that kind of self determination many pubs love. Imagine how many pubs you could get if you said "hey get this wind and solar at your house and never pay an electric bill again, and it'll pay itself off in X years" you get a lot more people interested.

If you only talk about climate change (which is nebulous to most people), as "we need to shut down coal/gas" you're messaging it as "I want the industry to die and the people who work it it to go out of work". If you say "hey we need to transition, here is how, here is how I will make sure you're taken care of during this, and we're gaining energy independence and reducing reliance or foreign oil and it will create opportunity and jobs this way" instead of talking about whether or not the planet is going to survive. You get a lot of people on board. If you stop talking about the science part (which most don't understand), and instead talk about how doing this benefits them, today, and not something that is 25-50 years from now, it clicks with people who aren't college educated, which is to say, most people.

A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater with a tesla


Offline Stupid Fitz

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5704
  • Go Cats
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2024, 01:22:59 PM »
If anyone disagrees with us it's an attack

My stance is that all people should be treated equally. I personally think it's weird if you disagree with that. I'm well aware that a large part of the voting public disagrees with me.

Offline Stupid Fitz

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5704
  • Go Cats
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2024, 01:29:27 PM »
Also a few more thoughts,

I think with this R's are good at making this a false trolley problem, and remember the ads are made to inflame, but if basic home economic stuff aren't being considered then you aren't seeing the choice made in front of them. Not able to put food on the table? Well those dems are only offering support to these *pick a group*. And that person is making that choose to pull the level onto that group every time.

And yeah, that messaging trump has of they/them vs you is perfect, as it's specific to the voter, and paints the dems as only supporting a small, small sect. In general if a dem is asked "do you support *pick a group* the answer is my policies support all groups, that group, white, black, Latino, gay and straight, this is about us."

Agree with this. I'm always just curious why it works so well on the R side. D's try this all the time with "Rs are for the rich". The one ad they ran with the video of Trump telling people that they were rich as hell and he was just going to make them richer if he got elected was a pretty damn good ad in my opinion, yet it obviously didn't resonate.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

  • smelly poor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6994
  • slide rule enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2024, 02:08:55 PM »
I think there are a couple of different things at play here. First and foremost - and i'm having a hard time accepting this one but i'm not sure how else to square it -- i think that a large percentage of our population are just the necessary amount of racist/homophobic/xenophobic/whateverophobic that it actually has become a plurality of what is important to them when they go to vote.

and right about here would be the part where someone like _33 is going to come in and say "oh so voting R makes me a homophobe? got it." so I'm going to explain what i mean.

I think there are a large amount of perfectly decent, polite, upstanding people who think homosexuality, or being transexual, is icky and they would just prefer to not have to deal with it in any way shape or form. Does finding something icky automatically make you a transphobe? No, of course not. Just because I don't like onions doesn't make me anti-vegetable or mean i want to ban all onions. But its not socially acceptable to say that part out loud. So then its like huh well in terms of policy most of it really isn't going to affect me one way or the other whether its an R or a D in power (it actually probably will but i'm too sure of myself to bother checking), but the R will actively fight to make sure that <the thing i find scary or icky>  is outlawed or at the very least not welcomed or encouraged and its okay to be discouraging of it. And then at that point its just a matter of finding An Incident to justify this incredibly valid stance. An undocumented migrant kills a US citizen. A girl doesn't make the swim team because a trans person amab made the team and took their spot. Does it matter than the number of instances this happens is statistically irrelevant? Does it make any kind of sense to base your voting on something that (directly) affects like 0.0075% of the population? No. because i don't like things that i find scary or don't understand and i want it to be okay for me to say it without fear of being ostricized.

If there is a better explanation I would love to know what it is, because i don't like the thought of the general public being juuuuuust X-phobic enough that they are going to vote for policy making that scary thing go away, even if it means 99% of every other policy is going to be very demonstrably against their own interests. But if that is indeed the case here, then like well folks...a facist dictator is apparently what we want. I am in the minority apparently, but if the majority of We The People want a facist then it would be very ironic for me to get upset when we make policy that reflects the will of the many over the will of the few.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

  • smelly poor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6994
  • slide rule enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2024, 02:15:12 PM »
also, my reasoning for saying all that stuff is becsuse of their political ads. That's LITERALLY all they have. So and so supports an open border. So and so voted for a bill that allows boys to play in girls sports. So and so voted for a bill to pay for sex change operations in the military. Those are literally the only things that get mentioned in their ads.

The fact that Raphael "Ted" Cruz...a guy who quite literally boarded on a plane to go to Cancun as his constituents were dying from freezing to death because of the shitshow of a power grid that Texas has (because there is no legislation forcing the power companies to provide sufficient infrastructure instead of just lining their pockets) -- the fact that THAT GUY actually GAINED POPULARITY in this election compared to 6 years ago is just proof that he knows what people actually care about. 

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 66007
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2024, 02:17:55 PM »
I'm OK with banning onions
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 10319
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2024, 02:23:53 PM »
Also a few more thoughts,

I think with this R's are good at making this a false trolley problem, and remember the ads are made to inflame, but if basic home economic stuff aren't being considered then you aren't seeing the choice made in front of them. Not able to put food on the table? Well those dems are only offering support to these *pick a group*. And that person is making that choose to pull the level onto that group every time.

And yeah, that messaging trump has of they/them vs you is perfect, as it's specific to the voter, and paints the dems as only supporting a small, small sect. In general if a dem is asked "do you support *pick a group* the answer is my policies support all groups, that group, white, black, Latino, gay and straight, this is about us."

Agree with this. I'm always just curious why it works so well on the R side. D's try this all the time with "Rs are for the rich". The one ad they ran with the video of Trump telling people that they were rich as hell and he was just going to make them richer if he got elected was a pretty damn good ad in my opinion, yet it obviously didn't resonate.

Yeah, it's a little harder and this is just a guess, is the message needs to be less "he's going to make him/billionaires rich" or the "pay their fair share" one, and more "his policies are making you poorer/have to pay more/cut your social services here to pay for their tax cut." Elon/Trump getting richer doesn't sound like a bad thing unless you understand it's coming from your pocket or coming at the expense of your healthcare, your education, your prosperity, etc. Make it personal. Their tax cut hurts you and this is why.
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater with a tesla


Offline yoga-like_abana

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 13411
  • Don't @ me boy, cause I ain't said crap
    • View Profile