Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)

[cfbandyman]

I think there's probably a tough balance to strike for both parties.  I imagine there's probably a sweet spot somewhere for the left where they don't completely alienate the lgbt community while maintaining the more centrist/"normie" groups.  Where exactly that line is, i don't know. 

I think the right probably has a similar problem with the pro-lifer types (ahem) and how far to the left they can get on the abortion issue (to grab some of that meaty center of the electorate) before they scare off the hardcore pro-lifers into voting for the american solidarity party or whatever. 

As I think about it, this same thing probably exists for like, dozens of platform issues on either side.  I'm leaving my post up even though everything i'm saying is completely obvious and none of it has any substantive value.

I think your thoughts on abortion are interesting (and useful!). But I don't think there's much pressure from the right to do more than what has been done. Trump said he'd veto national abortion bans and it was the best Republican result in decades

There’s pressure but it’s not very loud.  Pro lifers are (understandably) still grateful for Dobbs.  But as the Dobbs afterglow wears off, along with pro-choice sentiment increasing support more broadly, the next Republican ticket will have to try to be as center as possible without totally alienating the hardcore folks. Vance in the debate aligned a lot closer to me than Trump has, which probably means Vance’s message was too hardcore for the middle.

Again though, this phenomenon exists with basically every discreet issue.  Be as centrist as you can without losing “the base.”  I think the same is the case for LGBT stuff with dems.  How far to the center can they get (in order to not disqualify the “working class” types) while keeping the hardcore LGBT’rs in line?

I really think the most potentially insurmountable challenge with trans rights is trans girls playing girls sports. Which is really an absurd thing to worry about when you look at how often it happens but does the most damage to the center IMO. I don't know how to do it but I still think the best way I've seen a politician handle it is the Utah governor's veto announcement

https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/24/gov-cox-why-im-vetoing-hb11/

I hadn't read it in a while and introducing a panel/committee to ensure the trans kids' participation is safe and fair for everyone seems like a pretty good compromise. (Really I think safety should be all that matters but it's compromise!) I would hope that could address a lot of fears while also keeping LGBT activists engaged and most importantly ensuring trans kids are mostly treated like regular kids

They deserve care and respect, truly. I'm sure I'll get harassed, but willing to be corrected. My compromise for anyone transitioning is they be in a "men's" league, and then women in a "women's". I'm sure being sexist , transphobic or something. I just think it's the most fair. FTR if any woman is good enough to be in the "men's" league they can and should.

[michigancat]

I really think the most potentially insurmountable challenge with trans rights is trans girls playing girls sports. Which is really an absurd thing to worry about when you look at how often it happens but does the most damage to the center IMO. I don't know how to do it but I still think the best way I've seen a politician handle it is the Utah governor's veto announcement

https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/24/gov-cox-why-im-vetoing-hb11/

I hadn't read it in a while and introducing a panel/committee to ensure the trans kids' participation is safe and fair for everyone seems like a pretty good compromise. (Really I think safety should be all that matters but it's compromise!) I would hope that could address a lot of fears while also keeping LGBT activists engaged and most importantly ensuring trans kids are mostly treated like regular kids

They deserve care and respect, truly. I'm sure I'll get harassed, but willing to be corrected. My compromise for anyone transitioning is they be in a "men's" league, and then women in a "women's". I'm sure being sexist , transphobic or something. I just think it's the most fair. FTR if any woman is good enough to be in the "men's" league they can and should.

Honestly, your compromise is a natural response for most people who didn't know transgenderism was a thing until they became adults. I don't think you're being sexist or transphobic, you're just someone who truly wants what's fair and is willing to take in new information.

As to leagues for people transitioning, you say "men's" and "women's" leagues. If I were in politics, I would ignore adult sports - pro leagues, olympics, rec leagues - they can set whatever policies they want. NCAA is a bit of a gray area because of all the government money wrapped up in college sports, but IMO in leagues for kids, "fairness" of competition should come second to allowing trans kids a safe place to compete as their new identity.

I am going to sound crass (and do not recommend a democrat politician using this language), but youth sports results flat out don't matter. As long as people are safe, it is just about having fun, competing, and being part of a community. Your kid will not lose a scholarship to a trans kid, will not miss a spot on the olympics team, will really not be impacted at all by transgenders competing with them. On the flip side, the lives of trans kids could be enormously impacted by not being allowed to play a sport, because it takes away a space for them to do something they enjoy and be themselves. Competing in the gender they don't want to could be absolutely humiliating for many of them and lead to any number of harmful outcomes. They are often scared, confused, and most importantly fragile children, and we should treat them with as much kindness and respect as possible.

[DQ12]

I don’t understand what the proposed “compromise” is. 

[michigancat]

I don’t understand what the proposed “compromise” is.

It's briefly explained in the Utah governor link, but basically they were proposing a committee to review each individual case if a transgender child wanted to play sports to ensure safety and fair competition were protected. The more extreme positions would be an outright ban on trans kids competing with their preferred gender or allowing kids to compete with their preferred gender in all cases no questions asked.

[_33]

I really think the most potentially insurmountable challenge with trans rights is trans girls playing girls sports. Which is really an absurd thing to worry about when you look at how often it happens but does the most damage to the center IMO. I don't know how to do it but I still think the best way I've seen a politician handle it is the Utah governor's veto announcement

https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/24/gov-cox-why-im-vetoing-hb11/

I hadn't read it in a while and introducing a panel/committee to ensure the trans kids' participation is safe and fair for everyone seems like a pretty good compromise. (Really I think safety should be all that matters but it's compromise!) I would hope that could address a lot of fears while also keeping LGBT activists engaged and most importantly ensuring trans kids are mostly treated like regular kids

They deserve care and respect, truly. I'm sure I'll get harassed, but willing to be corrected. My compromise for anyone transitioning is they be in a "men's" league, and then women in a "women's". I'm sure being sexist , transphobic or something. I just think it's the most fair. FTR if any woman is good enough to be in the "men's" league they can and should.

Honestly, your compromise is a natural response for most people who didn't know transgenderism was a thing until they became adults. I don't think you're being sexist or transphobic, you're just someone who truly wants what's fair and is willing to take in new information.

As to leagues for people transitioning, you say "men's" and "women's" leagues. If I were in politics, I would ignore adult sports - pro leagues, olympics, rec leagues - they can set whatever policies they want. NCAA is a bit of a gray area because of all the government money wrapped up in college sports, but IMO in leagues for kids, "fairness" of competition should come second to allowing trans kids a safe place to compete as their new identity.

I am going to sound crass (and do not recommend a democrat politician using this language), but youth sports results flat out don't matter. As long as people are safe, it is just about having fun, competing, and being part of a community. Your kid will not lose a scholarship to a trans kid, will not miss a spot on the olympics team, will really not be impacted at all by transgenders competing with them. On the flip side, the lives of trans kids could be enormously impacted by not being allowed to play a sport, because it takes away a space for them to do something they enjoy and be themselves. Competing in the gender they don't want to could be absolutely humiliating for many of them and lead to any number of harmful outcomes. They are often scared, confused, and most importantly fragile children, and we should treat them with as much kindness and respect as possible.

Fully agree with treating them with as much kindness and respect as possible. We disagree on most everything else, but that's OK!

[DQ12]

I don’t understand what the proposed “compromise” is.

It's briefly explained in the Utah governor link, but basically they were proposing a committee to review each individual case if a transgender child wanted to play sports to ensure safety and fair competition were protected. The more extreme positions would be an outright ban on trans kids competing with their preferred gender or allowing kids to compete with their preferred gender in all cases no questions asked.

Yeah I meant CFB's proposed compromise.

[michigancat]

I don’t understand what the proposed “compromise” is.

It's briefly explained in the Utah governor link, but basically they were proposing a committee to review each individual case if a transgender child wanted to play sports to ensure safety and fair competition were protected. The more extreme positions would be an outright ban on trans kids competing with their preferred gender or allowing kids to compete with their preferred gender in all cases no questions asked.

Yeah I meant CFB's proposed compromise.

his was let trans girls compete with boys and trans boys to compete with girls and not ban them from sports altogether

[DQ12]

I don’t understand what the proposed “compromise” is.

It's briefly explained in the Utah governor link, but basically they were proposing a committee to review each individual case if a transgender child wanted to play sports to ensure safety and fair competition were protected. The more extreme positions would be an outright ban on trans kids competing with their preferred gender or allowing kids to compete with their preferred gender in all cases no questions asked.

Yeah I meant CFB's proposed compromise.

his was let trans girls compete with boys and trans boys to compete with girls and not ban them from sports altogether

ah.  the gender terminology he was using confused me.  yeah i don't see CFB's as a "compromise" really.  i don't think anyone would object to a M->F kid playing in a boys' league -- at least i haven't seen an objection to that (other than the broader objection that kids shouldn't be allowed to "transition" in any meaningful sense).  the question in my view is whether a M->F kid should be allowed to play in a female league. 

It's hard to think a of a "compromise" other than the Utah plan.  But even that has it's own conceptual problems (e.g. so some trans kids get to play in their gender identity league, but some don't?).  Figuring out a rational "compromise" that isn't cruel in its own right is tricky.

[michigancat]

I don%u2019t understand what the proposed %u201Ccompromise%u201D is.

It's briefly explained in the Utah governor link, but basically they were proposing a committee to review each individual case if a transgender child wanted to play sports to ensure safety and fair competition were protected. The more extreme positions would be an outright ban on trans kids competing with their preferred gender or allowing kids to compete with their preferred gender in all cases no questions asked.

Yeah I meant CFB's proposed compromise.

his was let trans girls compete with boys and trans boys to compete with girls and not ban them from sports altogether

ah.  the gender terminology he was using confused me.  yeah i don't see CFB's as a "compromise" really.  i don't think anyone would object to a M->F kid playing in a boys' league -- at least i haven't seen an objection to that (other than the broader objection that kids shouldn't be allowed to "transition" in any meaningful sense). 

well you would be wrong!

In the wake of winning a controversial Texas state girls' wrestling title over the weekend, Mack Beggs, a 17-year-old transgender wrestler, spoke to the need to "stay strong" while also calling on state policymakers to "change the laws and then watch me wrestle the boys."

Beggs, who identifies as male, was dogged throughout the tournament by questions about whether his testosterone treatments made him too strong to wrestle fairly against girls. In an interview with ESPN's Outside the Lines on Wednesday, Beggs said he was unfazed by the boos that rained down on him en route to the 110-pound championship, which capped an undefeated season for the Euless Trinity junior.

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/18802987/mack-beggs-transgender-wrestler-change-laws-watch-wrestle-boys

He was actually featured in a Ted Cruz attack ad as an example of what democrats are fighting for:

https://x.com/TheAdvocateMag/status/1852138727914475949

It's hard to think a of a "compromise" other than the Utah plan.  But even that has it's own conceptual problems (e.g. so some trans kids get to play in their gender identity league, but some don't?).  Figuring out a rational "compromise" that isn't cruel in its own right is tricky.

I agree with that. Still, I think it's the least cruel path that doesn't alienate the center. It should address concerns from parents who are naturally reacting like "hey, this kid will hurt my daughter", and to be honest I would expect most kids would be allowed to play in their preferred division.

[Rage Against the McKee]

F->M participating in a girls league causes all sorts of issues because those hormones are banned substances and give a substantial advantage. Honestly, the government shouldn't be involved in sports at all. I don't understand why so many conservatives want to live in a nanny state.

[nicname]

F->M participating in a girls league causes all sorts of issues because those hormones are banned substances and give a substantial advantage. Honestly, the government shouldn't be involved in sports at all. I don't understand why so many conservatives want to live in a nanny state.

Should sports be de-coupled from the overwhelmingly public school system then? Have public school just be for learnin’ then, and all sports be some type of club, or some other independent governing body?

Edit to add: don’t we already have a thread for trans sports stuff

[Cartierfor3]

F->M participating in a girls league causes all sorts of issues because those hormones are banned substances and give a substantial advantage. Honestly, the government shouldn't be involved in sports at all. I don't understand why so many conservatives want to live in a nanny state.

Should sports be de-coupled from the overwhelmingly public school system then? Have public school just be for learnin’ then, and all sports be some type of club, or some other independent governing body?

This would be a great plan to make sure only rich kids can play sports in high school.

[Rage Against the McKee]

F->M participating in a girls league causes all sorts of issues because those hormones are banned substances and give a substantial advantage. Honestly, the government shouldn't be involved in sports at all. I don't understand why so many conservatives want to live in a nanny state.

Should sports be de-coupled from the overwhelmingly public school system then? Have public school just be for learnin’ then, and all sports be some type of club, or some other independent governing body?

Yeah, that's how the rest of the world does it.

[nicname]

F->M participating in a girls league causes all sorts of issues because those hormones are banned substances and give a substantial advantage. Honestly, the government shouldn't be involved in sports at all. I don't understand why so many conservatives want to live in a nanny state.

Should sports be de-coupled from the overwhelmingly public school system then? Have public school just be for learnin’ then, and all sports be some type of club, or some other independent governing body?

This would be a great plan to make sure only rich kids can play sports in high school.

Right. So the government necessarily has to be involved in sports if sports are to largely remain coupled to our primarily public education system.

Privatization of sports would probably go poorly for trans athletes imo btw.

[nicname]

Mods should prob move the recent series of posts back to the trans sports thread

[Rage Against the McKee]

F->M participating in a girls league causes all sorts of issues because those hormones are banned substances and give a substantial advantage. Honestly, the government shouldn't be involved in sports at all. I don't understand why so many conservatives want to live in a nanny state.

Should sports be de-coupled from the overwhelmingly public school system then? Have public school just be for learnin’ then, and all sports be some type of club, or some other independent governing body?

This would be a great plan to make sure only rich kids can play sports in high school.

Right. So the government necessarily has to be involved in sports if sports are to largely remain coupled to our primarily public education system.

Privatization of sports would probably go poorly for trans athletes imo btw.

While I would prefer sports to be privatized, I also don't agree that there is some necessity that government be involved in public school sports. KSHSAA runs Kansas high school athletics and it is a private, non-governmental organization.

[Stupid Fitz]

This right here is why the Rs won though. We have two threads talking about an issue that affects a minuscule amount of people in the grand scheme of things. Not that it isn't an important issue, it's just bonkers that the Rs made it such a huge issue and had success with it.

[Rage Against the McKee]

This right here is why the Rs won though. We have two threads talking about an issue that affects a minuscule amount of people in the grand scheme of things. Not that it isn't an important issue, it's just bonkers that the Rs made it such a huge issue and had success with it.

Yeah, bigger government with a populist hate message is always going to be hard to beat.

[steve dave]

Perfect Game banned the Hype Fire drop 5. But USSSA didn’t. Something to think about (this is a travel ball joke).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete]

This right here is why the Rs won though. We have two threads talking about an issue that affects a minuscule amount of people in the grand scheme of things. Not that it isn't an important issue, it's just bonkers that the Rs made it such a huge issue and had success with it.

The Dems will never fail to pick the dumbest motherfucking hill to die on. Jesus rough ridin' Christ, Democrats! We get it. Bigotry against trans community is bad. Is it worth losing an entire rough ridin' election? Just rough ridin' once try being pragmatic, Democrats.

[Pete]

On the upside the Democrat try hard chart looks outstanding.

[michigancat]

Mods should prob move the recent series of posts back to the trans sports thread

Trans girls in sports is a key political issue. Democrats need to solve this if they want to win elections while protecting human rights.

[michigancat]

This right here is why the Rs won though. We have two threads talking about an issue that affects a minuscule amount of people in the grand scheme of things. Not that it isn't an important issue, it's just bonkers that the Rs made it such a huge issue and had success with it.

The Dems will never fail to pick the dumbest motherfucking hill to die on. Jesus rough ridin' Christ, Democrats! We get it. Bigotry against trans community is bad. Is it worth losing an entire rough ridin' election? Just rough ridin' once try being pragmatic, Democrats.

the thing is that I'm not seeing any evidence of high-profile Dems actually attempting to stand up against bigotry. They basically avoided the subject and still got bludgeoned for it.

if they actually stood up for trans people in a meaningful way that addressed genuine fears about what that might mean, they could both win elections and protect trans people. If not, at least they're going down doing the right thing, which in my opinion is preferable to being spineless and catering to bigots and still losing.

[Trim]

On the upside the Democrat try hard chart looks outstanding.

[Stupid Fitz]

This right here is why the Rs won though. We have two threads talking about an issue that affects a minuscule amount of people in the grand scheme of things. Not that it isn't an important issue, it's just bonkers that the Rs made it such a huge issue and had success with it.

The Dems will never fail to pick the dumbest motherfucking hill to die on. Jesus rough ridin' Christ, Democrats! We get it. Bigotry against trans community is bad. Is it worth losing an entire rough ridin' election? Just rough ridin' once try being pragmatic, Democrats.

the thing is that I'm not seeing any evidence of high-profile Dems actually attempting to stand up against bigotry. They basically avoided the subject and still got bludgeoned for it.

if they actually stood up for trans people in a meaningful way that addressed genuine fears about what that might mean, they could both win elections and protect trans people. If not, at least they're going down doing the right thing, which in my opinion is preferable to being spineless and catering to bigots and still losing.

Yep, they basically just let the Rs control the narrative that kids were going to school as one gender and coming back another. It was bonkers. The right is suburb at controlling the narrative. Every speech Trump made he made it sound like America was a third world lawless country. He is great at it.