Poll

should the united states tax unrealized capital gains?

yes
6 (22.2%)
no
21 (77.8%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: June 23, 2021, 03:21:13 PM

Author Topic: tax poll  (Read 1407 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2021, 04:00:25 PM »
Do those credit extensions based on unrealized gains get taxed?

tax would be paid when the assets guaranteeing the loan are sold to repay the loan.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 35580
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2021, 01:06:15 AM »
Do those credit extensions based on unrealized gains get taxed?

tax would be paid when the assets guaranteeing the loan are sold to repay the loan.

Not good enough

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2021, 01:32:46 AM »
tax would be paid when the assets guaranteeing the loan are sold to repay the loan.

Not good enough

why not?
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 35580
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2021, 04:23:36 PM »
tax would be paid when the assets guaranteeing the loan are sold to repay the loan.

Not good enough

why not?

Because it's an end around from paying taxes on what should be income. Those sold assets only represent, in nearly all cases, a small fraction of the income being hidden to avoid taxes.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2021, 04:50:37 PM »
Because it's an end around from paying taxes on what should be income. Those sold assets only represent, in nearly all cases, a small fraction of the income being hidden to avoid taxes.

i don't think that's accurate.  the taxes are deferred, not avoided forever.

afai can tell, admittedly from just a few minutes of googling, everyone's best scheme to avoid the estate tax is just to give the money away instead of paying taxes on it.  which, ok, great you didn't pay taxes, but also you're dead and your heirs hate you.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 35580
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2021, 04:50:57 PM »
Because it's an end around from paying taxes on what should be income. Those sold assets only represent, in nearly all cases, a small fraction of the income being hidden to avoid taxes.

i don't think that's accurate.  the taxes are deferred, not avoided forever.

afai can tell, admittedly from just a few minutes of googling, everyone's best scheme to avoid the estate tax is just to give the money away instead of paying taxes on it.  which, ok, great you didn't pay taxes, but also you're dead and your heirs hate you.

The income tax they are avoiding isn't deferred. We're not talking about people sitting at home, or travelling around the world while retired. All of these guys are working real jobs, running multi-national corporations with titles, offices, and thousands of people that work for them. Our tax code allows these men, who are definitely drawing a significant salary, from actually claiming said salary. Yes, I realize that at this point most of their worth is in investments but they are working and they aren't doing it for free.

Offline Cire

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 16505
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2021, 04:59:13 PM »
This guy should pay some taxes

?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2021, 05:22:40 PM »
The income tax they are avoiding isn't deferred... Our tax code allows these men, who are definitely drawing a significant salary, from actually claiming said salary.

how is this accomplished?
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 33399
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2021, 11:31:47 PM »
Incentive stock options?  :dunno:

Offline bucket

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 8023
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2021, 11:37:40 PM »
Incentive stock options?  :dunno:

They are counted as income and are subject to the capital gains tax.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2021, 11:39:28 PM »
value of the option is taxable as ordinary income at exercise and any increase in value of the security as capital gains when the security is sold.


deferred, not avoided.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 33399
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2021, 11:48:58 PM »
Incentive stock options?  :dunno:

They are counted as income and are subject to the capital gains tax.

Quote
Why are Incentive Stock Options more favorable tax-wise?

When you exercise Incentive Stock Options, you buy the stock at a pre-established price, which could be well below actual market value. The advantage of an ISO is you do not have to report income when you receive a stock option grant or when you exercise that option.

You report the taxable income only when you sell the stock. And, depending on how long you own the stock, that income could be taxed at capital gain rates ranging from 0% to 23.8% (for sales in 2020)—typically a lot lower than your regular income tax rate.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/investments-and-taxes/incentive-stock-options/amp/L4azWgfwy

 :dunno:

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2021, 12:19:47 AM »
Quote
Why are Incentive Stock Options more favorable tax-wise?

When you exercise Incentive Stock Options, you buy the stock at a pre-established price, which could be well below actual market value. The advantage of an ISO is you do not have to report income when you receive a stock option grant or when you exercise that option.

You report the taxable income only when you sell the stock. And, depending on how long you own the stock, that income could be taxed at capital gain rates ranging from 0% to 23.8% (for sales in 2020)—typically a lot lower than your regular income tax rate.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/investments-and-taxes/incentive-stock-options/amp/L4azWgfwy

 :dunno:

Quote
There is a catch with Incentive Stock Options, however: you do have to report that bargain element as taxable compensation for Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) purposes in the year you exercise the options (unless you sell the stock in the same year). We'll explain more about the AMT later.


thinking about it a little more, though, there is some avoidance mixed in with the deferral.  i don't think it's typically a huge portion, but it's not nothing either.  when a normie buys an option (let's say with after tax income to make it comparable), there is a premium in the price along with whatever difference in value between the market price and exercise price.  when the option is granted, the recipient is only taxed (upon exercise) on the difference in value.  the value of the premium is not taxed.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 35580
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2021, 10:50:20 AM »
The income tax they are avoiding isn't deferred... Our tax code allows these men, who are definitely drawing a significant salary, from actually claiming said salary.

how is this accomplished?

dunno but I'm 100% certain it could be figured out by people who have studied tax policy.

Offline kim carnes

  • chingon!
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 12572
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2021, 02:02:53 PM »
Its odd to me that you can invest in a non-public company using a Roth.

Offline steve dave

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 78046
  • Romantic Fist Attachment
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2021, 02:15:47 PM »
Roth’s should probably be made illegal irl. They are a very easy way to do fun crap and never pay taxes on it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Online Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 18397
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2021, 02:46:32 PM »
Its odd to me that you can invest in a non-public company using a Roth.
Self-directed allow you to do some wild stuff. You can buy an investment property.
@bentren

Offline kim carnes

  • chingon!
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 12572
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2021, 03:55:26 PM »
Its odd to me that you can invest in a non-public company using a Roth.
Self-directed allow you to do some wild stuff. You can buy an investment property.

Let’s say you own a few lumberyards worth 10 million, you can “sell” it to your son for 2k in his Roth, he can sell it tax free.  :eek:

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2021, 04:27:53 PM »
dunno but I'm 100% certain it could be figured out by people who have studied tax policy.

hard to take very seriously the claim that this is not only possible, but common and a problem when no one can provide evidence that it exists.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online chum1

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19829
  • Gucci Mane Book Reader
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2021, 04:45:19 PM »
I briefly read about self directed IRA. I decided it was not worth the effort to explore further.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2021, 04:50:30 PM »
Let’s say you own a few lumberyards worth 10 million, you can “sell” it to your son for 2k in his Roth, he can sell it tax free.  :eek:

you can do this, i suppose, but it's illegal.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 35580
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2021, 05:34:08 PM »
dunno but I'm 100% certain it could be figured out by people who have studied tax policy.

hard to take very seriously the claim that this is not only possible, but common and a problem when no one can provide evidence that it exists.

Did you quote the wrong post? Are you referring to the claim that rich people hide income to avoid taxes? I haven't claimed anything beyond that, and you can't possibly be saying that is a problem that we don't know of its existence. Also I never said this was common. There are 100,000,000 tax payers in America and presumably the impetus of this thread was an article about 25 of those hundred million.

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 37595
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2021, 06:30:15 PM »
dunno but I'm 100% certain it could be figured out by people who have studied tax policy.

hard to take very seriously the claim that this is not only possible, but common and a problem when no one can provide evidence that it exists.

Did you quote the wrong post? Are you referring to the claim that rich people hide income to avoid taxes? I haven't claimed anything beyond that, and you can't possibly be saying that is a problem that we don't know of its existence. Also I never said this was common. There are 100,000,000 tax payers in America and presumably the impetus of this thread was an article about 25 of those hundred million.

yeah, i don't think there's a secret tax code that only billionaires know how to order off of.  every time i hear of one, when i look into it there's nothing there.  the grand tax dodge is either giving all your money away before it's taxed or deferring your income for as long as possible or some very boring thing that everyone knows about.

maybe the secret billionaire tax code exists, but i'd like someone who believes in it to track it down and point it out to me because i've looked a little bit and i can't find it.

i mean there are very definitely things in the tax code that advantage the very rich, but it's stuff that's right out in the open like depreciating real estate when real estate actually appreciates in value, taxing dividends at half the rate of ordinary income and crap like that.
"lol, i understand military logistics quite well, thanks."

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 48030
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2021, 07:22:16 PM »
Yeah they get a lot of incentives that require a lot of wealth to take advantage of. I think when someone calls for closing loopholes or whatever that's what they're generally referring to

Online MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 35580
    • View Profile
Re: tax poll
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2021, 09:37:48 PM »
Yeah they get a lot of incentives that require a lot of wealth to take advantage of. I think when someone calls for closing loopholes or whatever that's what they're generally referring to

This and I thought that was obvious. No one said anything about a secret tax code, just that the more money you have the easier it is to find loopholes. TIL this wasn't rudimentary tax code knowledge.