Author Topic: Athletes Forcing Change  (Read 94704 times)

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #450 on: July 07, 2020, 11:15:57 PM »



Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.

As I understand it from reading the article, it isn't about the tweet, it's about the culture. The tweet's a symptom (albeit an extra loud one) and the culture's the disease. It's a tweet combined with being called the n-word combined with lack of outreach combined with similar experiences other students have had combined with what some felt was a half hearted effort to deal with this. (All things mentioned by students other than the tweet)
your explanation still doesn't explain it. "similar experiences other students have had"? What are those experiences?  the tweet; lack of outreach; and half hearted effort (which i strongly disagree with) are not really part of a culture. those are separate items. so you didn't really name what the culture problem actually is. i dont hear the n word used often as an explanation of poor culture. i just hear culture. but no one can actually say what they are talking about. you didn't explain it either.

I don't think you really care to understand

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #451 on: July 08, 2020, 01:33:31 AM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

What exactly is wrong with you? These black students are liars that can't go to another school?

Well that is rich suggesting that I don't believe the students.  I'm extrapolating from the actual statements, whereas you appeared to have pulled this completely from your entire ass:

Instead of white K-Staters losing their crap, y'all/they/whatever should be happy the student's love K-State enough to stay and make it a better place.

The students quoted in the article never said they stayed at K-State because they loved it or that they wanted to make it a better place.  They said they stayed because they did not have better options to transfer for the degrees they were pursuing.  And whatever the race-related issues they experienced, they were not enough to make them want to take their credits elsewhere.  I have no doubt they had plenty of options.

If anything this shows that if universities like KSU want to attract diverse students, it HAS to be a combination of both (1) increasing cultural awareness and tolerance campus wide; and (2) focusing on providing high quality programs to attract quality students.  The fact the quoted students were dedicated to KSU's veterinary and engineering programs is really no surprise to me.  Those are two of the best programs K-State has to offer.

You seem to be the only person with that interpretation, I'm not going to try to figure out your agenda for making such a dubious interpretation.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #452 on: July 08, 2020, 09:12:33 AM »
From the article, here were the reasons offered for staying.

Quote
“I thought about transferring because of all of this,” she said. “But I came to K-State because of the veterinarian medicine program. It’s too hard to start over. It is easier to stay than to transfer.”

Besides, she said, she wants to stay and push for change. “But it feels like we are fighting a battle we should not have to fight. When minority students who want to come to K-State ask what it is like on campus, I want to be able to tell them that it’s safe, that they care about us.”

Quote
Molinar of Wichita said she doesn’t want to sound hopeless. “But I have thought about leaving K-State. And even considered it. But at the end of the day I am at K-State because I am an engineering student, it’s a good school for that and I’m there to get my degree.”

Quote
Ayana Belk, a graduate of Kansas City’s Lincoln College Preparatory Academy, said she feels trapped at K-State because she’s a junior majoring in landscape architecture. “With that major, it’s not easy to just go somewhere else,” the 20-year-old said.

“I did let them know that I didn’t want to come back to K-State and that I did want to transfer,” Belk said. “But I’m going back because my program does very well coming out of K-State.”

They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.
i get that if someone says they feel unsafe then they feel unsafe. I guess my interest is in understanding why that is the case. in none of those interviews did the student explain why they feel unsafe. how is anyone supposed to know how to address someones lack of personal security if they can't explain what makes them feel that way. i'm all for looking at improving whatever we need to improve. i just like to know what exactly are we trying to improve? is it wrong to want to understand why some students want to transfer but they won't explain why?

Yes, it's wrong, and I've already explained to you why. Unless one of these students is your child they don't owe you or anyone else anything.

Well good luck on achieving a cultural change if they can't explain how the existing culture is harmful to one's personal security. 

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #453 on: July 08, 2020, 09:55:11 AM »
To the extent you guys are interested, here is a fairly analogous case from the 70s:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/667.html

The arguments are very similar to those at issue re. McNeil.


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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #454 on: July 08, 2020, 10:21:25 AM »
sorry n00b lawyer but i don't read case law, i write it


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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #455 on: July 08, 2020, 10:27:52 AM »
sorry n00b lawyer but i don't read case law, i write it
i am the caselaw, son.  read me and weep. 


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Offline kashi1965

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #456 on: July 08, 2020, 12:11:42 PM »



Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.

As I understand it from reading the article, it isn't about the tweet, it's about the culture. The tweet's a symptom (albeit an extra loud one) and the culture's the disease. It's a tweet combined with being called the n-word combined with lack of outreach combined with similar experiences other students have had combined with what some felt was a half hearted effort to deal with this. (All things mentioned by students other than the tweet)
your explanation still doesn't explain it. "similar experiences other students have had"? What are those experiences?  the tweet; lack of outreach; and half hearted effort (which i strongly disagree with) are not really part of a culture. those are separate items. so you didn't really name what the culture problem actually is. i dont hear the n word used often as an explanation of poor culture. i just hear culture. but no one can actually say what they are talking about. you didn't explain it either.

I don't think you really care to understand
and you would be wrong. what in my writing has conveyed an intention to not understand? i am asking questions to get better educated. that is how we solve problems. and neither of you can tell me what the campus culture is like at KSU that is threatening to people of color. is asking that question racist? i dont understand what is wrong with the question. how do we overcome obstacles without understanding the obstacles? i understand each of us takes responsibility for how we make others feel. but how do we improve individually if we are not educated? you certainly wouldn't expect anything to change without first explaining the problem

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Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #457 on: July 08, 2020, 12:24:10 PM »

You seem to be the only person with that interpretation, I'm not going to try to figure out your agenda for making such a dubious interpretation.

My agenda is the same as KSU’s: educate some fools.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #458 on: July 08, 2020, 02:04:33 PM »
and you would be wrong. what in my writing has conveyed an intention to not understand? i am asking questions to get better educated. that is how we solve problems. and neither of you can tell me what the campus culture is like at KSU that is threatening to people of color.

The black students quoted the article explained themselves quite well, you're just either ignoring or dismissing them.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #459 on: July 08, 2020, 02:49:47 PM »

Offline kashi1965

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #460 on: July 08, 2020, 03:34:17 PM »
and you would be wrong. what in my writing has conveyed an intention to not understand? i am asking questions to get better educated. that is how we solve problems. and neither of you can tell me what the campus culture is like at KSU that is threatening to people of color.

The black students quoted the article explained themselves quite well, you're just either ignoring or dismissing them.
i disagree. i have read the article. they did not explain what has made them feel scared. please quote the information where the specific threat was identified or source of the fear.

Offline kashi1965

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #461 on: July 08, 2020, 03:39:54 PM »
Here's a way to view the article.

https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1280929488772239360
we need less people like him in the world. total douche

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #462 on: July 08, 2020, 03:58:52 PM »
From the article, here were the reasons offered for staying.

Quote
“I thought about transferring because of all of this,” she said. “But I came to K-State because of the veterinarian medicine program. It’s too hard to start over. It is easier to stay than to transfer.”

Besides, she said, she wants to stay and push for change. “But it feels like we are fighting a battle we should not have to fight. When minority students who want to come to K-State ask what it is like on campus, I want to be able to tell them that it’s safe, that they care about us.”

Quote
Molinar of Wichita said she doesn’t want to sound hopeless. “But I have thought about leaving K-State. And even considered it. But at the end of the day I am at K-State because I am an engineering student, it’s a good school for that and I’m there to get my degree.”

Quote
Ayana Belk, a graduate of Kansas City’s Lincoln College Preparatory Academy, said she feels trapped at K-State because she’s a junior majoring in landscape architecture. “With that major, it’s not easy to just go somewhere else,” the 20-year-old said.

“I did let them know that I didn’t want to come back to K-State and that I did want to transfer,” Belk said. “But I’m going back because my program does very well coming out of K-State.”

They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.
i get that if someone says they feel unsafe then they feel unsafe. I guess my interest is in understanding why that is the case. in none of those interviews did the student explain why they feel unsafe. how is anyone supposed to know how to address someones lack of personal security if they can't explain what makes them feel that way. i'm all for looking at improving whatever we need to improve. i just like to know what exactly are we trying to improve? is it wrong to want to understand why some students want to transfer but they won't explain why?

Yes, it's wrong, and I've already explained to you why. Unless one of these students is your child they don't owe you or anyone else anything.

Well good luck on achieving a cultural change if they can't explain how the existing culture is harmful to one's personal security.

They don't need to explain that, there's thousands of places you can go to get the explanation of you want it, including this thread. There is no standing for adults to claim ignorance on this topic.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #463 on: July 08, 2020, 04:12:27 PM »
Here's a way to view the article.

https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1280929488772239360
we need less people like him in the world. total douche

Dismissal isn't any less harmful than willful ignorance. Neither, however, are as bad as people who need to be allies but are afraid of the dirty work.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #464 on: July 08, 2020, 04:31:14 PM »
To the extent you guys are interested, here is a fairly analogous case from the 70s:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/667.html

The arguments are very similar to those at issue re. McNeil.

I'll be real, I'm not going to read 50 year old case law, because I'm not in college anymore. However I do have a direct question for you and the other attorneys on the board, hell for anyone. It's a yes/no question, two actually.

1. Isn't there extensive case law and precedent used to interpret broaden/narrow the scope of constitutional amendments?
2. Has what's considered protected speech changed in any way since 1791?

If the answer to either questions is yes, isn't the opinion that the university should let him stay to protect his first amendment rights just essentially saying you (general term) don't think this is a battle worthy of the university fighting? I'm very put off by some people who are yielding the first amendment as some mind bending labyrinth, not even worth trying to solve.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #465 on: July 08, 2020, 04:40:24 PM »
Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #466 on: July 08, 2020, 04:41:35 PM »
From the article, here were the reasons offered for staying.

Quote
“I thought about transferring because of all of this,” she said. “But I came to K-State because of the veterinarian medicine program. It’s too hard to start over. It is easier to stay than to transfer.”

Besides, she said, she wants to stay and push for change. “But it feels like we are fighting a battle we should not have to fight. When minority students who want to come to K-State ask what it is like on campus, I want to be able to tell them that it’s safe, that they care about us.”

Quote
Molinar of Wichita said she doesn’t want to sound hopeless. “But I have thought about leaving K-State. And even considered it. But at the end of the day I am at K-State because I am an engineering student, it’s a good school for that and I’m there to get my degree.”

Quote
Ayana Belk, a graduate of Kansas City’s Lincoln College Preparatory Academy, said she feels trapped at K-State because she’s a junior majoring in landscape architecture. “With that major, it’s not easy to just go somewhere else,” the 20-year-old said.

“I did let them know that I didn’t want to come back to K-State and that I did want to transfer,” Belk said. “But I’m going back because my program does very well coming out of K-State.”

They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.
i get that if someone says they feel unsafe then they feel unsafe. I guess my interest is in understanding why that is the case. in none of those interviews did the student explain why they feel unsafe. how is anyone supposed to know how to address someones lack of personal security if they can't explain what makes them feel that way. i'm all for looking at improving whatever we need to improve. i just like to know what exactly are we trying to improve? is it wrong to want to understand why some students want to transfer but they won't explain why?

Yes, it's wrong, and I've already explained to you why. Unless one of these students is your child they don't owe you or anyone else anything.

Well good luck on achieving a cultural change if they can't explain how the existing culture is harmful to one's personal security.

They don't need to explain that, there's thousands of places you can go to get the explanation of you want it, including this thread. There is no standing for adults to claim ignorance on this topic.
[/quote
ok cool. could you simply tell me where to go to find the explanation for why these ksu students are fearful on campus? if there are thousands of places to get the answer could you direct me to just one? that would be helpful so all us ignorant people can become a little less ignorant. you name call but give ambiguous and unclear answers to simple questions. how do u expect anyone to ever come close to your intellectual capacity if you dont help them out with where to get educated?

Offline kashi1965

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #467 on: July 08, 2020, 04:44:22 PM »
Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.
what if a large majority of people agree that racist speech is threatening? threatening people i believe is against the law.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #468 on: July 08, 2020, 04:45:30 PM »
Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.

I think publicly-subsidized college should be looked at as a benefit. Is not receiving a benefit a punishment? Are there any government benefits that can be withheld from racists? (I asked a question to this effect a while back and didn't receive an answer)

I can honestly kind of see arguments both ways.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #469 on: July 08, 2020, 04:47:55 PM »
Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.

I think publicly-subsidized college should be looked at as a benefit. Is not receiving a benefit a punishment? Are there any government benefits that can be withheld from racists? (I asked a question to this effect a while back and didn't receive an answer)

I can honestly kind of see arguments both ways.

I also asked the question earlier about which other government services should be denied to Jaden and got no response.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #470 on: July 08, 2020, 04:56:52 PM »
To the extent you guys are interested, here is a fairly analogous case from the 70s:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/667.html

The arguments are very similar to those at issue re. McNeil.

I'll be real, I'm not going to read 50 year old case law, because I'm not in college anymore. However I do have a direct question for you and the other attorneys on the board, hell for anyone. It's a yes/no question, two actually.

1. Isn't there extensive case law and precedent used to interpret broaden/narrow the scope of constitutional amendments?
2. Has what's considered protected speech changed in any way since 1791?

If the answer to either questions is yes, isn't the opinion that the university should let him stay to protect his first amendment rights just essentially saying you (general term) don't think this is a battle worthy of the university fighting? I'm very put off by some people who are yielding the first amendment as some mind bending labyrinth, not even worth trying to solve.
I'll tell you that I'm a bit rusty on 1A procedural stuff -- spracs seems to have a better understanding so I'll defer to him if my analysis is off.  But the answer to both questions 1 and 2 --  "yes." 

That said, lower courts would be governed by the established precedent, which undeniably recognizes that expelling this guy would constitute an intentional violation of his constitutional rights.  McNeil is back in school a week or two after filing the case, btw.  We would 100% lose at the trial level with the only question remaining being damages (not ideal!).  SCOTUS could theoretically hear the case (though that's not likely) (also we're spending an assload at this point on fees and we're likely already judgment debtors for the punitive amount) seeking to overturn decades of established precedent, but that sort of thing is exceedingly, exceedingly rare.  If by some chance this hypothetical case did make it to the Supreme Court, I suspect the Court would unanimously rule against us. I'd put our odds of success somewhere between 0-5% -- and that may be generous.  Also, the resolution of this case would be years down the line.

So yes, it's possible the precedent could get overruled.  No, it's a virtual certainty we'd lose.  It's also a certainty that this would cost K-State 7-8 figures.  If your only bet is overturning 50 year old Supreme Court precedent, it's usually not a good idea. 


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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #471 on: July 08, 2020, 04:58:12 PM »
Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.

I think publicly-subsidized college should be looked at as a benefit. Is not receiving a benefit a punishment? Are there any government benefits that can be withheld from racists? (I asked a question to this effect a while back and didn't receive an answer)

I can honestly kind of see arguments both ways.

I also asked the question earlier about which other government services should be denied to Jaden and got no response.

I don't think America First Students should be a non-profit or receive support from KSU, even if they meet the minimum number of members or get faculty sponsorship

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #472 on: July 08, 2020, 05:00:26 PM »
I could probably be persuaded on that. I am completely ignorant of clubs and how they interact with the university though
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #473 on: July 08, 2020, 05:09:24 PM »
To the extent you guys are interested, here is a fairly analogous case from the 70s:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/667.html

The arguments are very similar to those at issue re. McNeil.

I'll be real, I'm not going to read 50 year old case law, because I'm not in college anymore. However I do have a direct question for you and the other attorneys on the board, hell for anyone. It's a yes/no question, two actually.

1. Isn't there extensive case law and precedent used to interpret broaden/narrow the scope of constitutional amendments?
2. Has what's considered protected speech changed in any way since 1791?

If the answer to either questions is yes, isn't the opinion that the university should let him stay to protect his first amendment rights just essentially saying you (general term) don't think this is a battle worthy of the university fighting? I'm very put off by some people who are yielding the first amendment as some mind bending labyrinth, not even worth trying to solve.
I'll tell you that I'm a bit rusty on 1A procedural stuff -- spracs seems to have a better understanding so I'll defer to him if my analysis is off.  But the answer to both questions 1 and 2 --  "yes." 

That said, lower courts would be governed by the established precedent, which undeniably recognizes that expelling this guy would constitute an intentional violation of his constitutional rights.  McNeil is back in school a week or two after filing the case, btw.  We would 100% lose at the trial level with the only question remaining being damages (not ideal!).  Eventually, SCOTUS could theoretically hear the case (though that's not likely) (also we're spending an assload at this point on fees and we're likely already judgment debtors for the punitive amount) seeking to overturn decades of established precedent, but that sort of thing is exceedingly, exceedingly rare.  If by some chance this hypothetical case did make it to the Supreme Court, I suspect the Court would unanimously rule against us. I'd put our odds of success somewhere between 0-5% -- and that may be generous.  Also, the resolution of this case would be years down the line.

So yes, it's possible the precedent could get overruled.  No, it's a virtual certainty we'd lose.  It's also a certainty that this would cost K-State 7-8 figures.  If your only bet is overturning 50 year old Supreme Court precedent, it's usually not a good idea.
Also, full disclosure, I wouldn't want K-State to win a case like that because I think it's important to protect free-expression on college campuses - even the expression of ideas i think are stupid and harmful because I'm sure there are plenty of people out there (WHO ARE PIECES OF crap, btw) who think my ideas are stupid and harmful.  So take everything I say with a grain of salt because I'm a bit biased.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 05:18:17 PM by DQ12 »


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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #474 on: July 08, 2020, 05:13:55 PM »
To the extent you guys are interested, here is a fairly analogous case from the 70s:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/667.html

The arguments are very similar to those at issue re. McNeil.

I'll be real, I'm not going to read 50 year old case law, because I'm not in college anymore. However I do have a direct question for you and the other attorneys on the board, hell for anyone. It's a yes/no question, two actually.

1. Isn't there extensive case law and precedent used to interpret broaden/narrow the scope of constitutional amendments?
2. Has what's considered protected speech changed in any way since 1791?

If the answer to either questions is yes, isn't the opinion that the university should let him stay to protect his first amendment rights just essentially saying you (general term) don't think this is a battle worthy of the university fighting? I'm very put off by some people who are yielding the first amendment as some mind bending labyrinth, not even worth trying to solve.
There’s absolutely 100% always room for change. Your challenge would be crafting a rule that doesn’t have potentially disastrous implications for speech (and would therefore be rejected in a heartbeat).

If you can figure out a way to do that, you could have a case. I just haven’t heard even a half baked suggestion that makes sense to handle something like this.

You can’t tell schools they’re allowed to repress racist/hate/repugnant speech because the terms are so open ended every case would be litigated and there would be no concept of what is and isn’t ok to punish. That kind of uncertainty would lead to the paradigm of a chilling effect on speech.