Author Topic: Athletes Forcing Change  (Read 94740 times)

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Offline Spracne

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #425 on: July 07, 2020, 03:04:18 PM »
I looked into the enrollment numbers last week and was shocked it's that low. KU is around 1100.  Kansas as a state is a not shocking 5.5% black.

So both schools have the same very low percentage of black students relative to total undergraduate population.

Precisely, except KSU has a much lower number despite overall higher enrollment (assuming this is still the case, but I haven't checked lately).

KU always has approximately 2,000 more undergraduate students than K-State.   Wyandotte County alone has approximately 50K black residents.   So a couple of hundred more black students at KU which is right down the road isn't impressive to say the least.

Not that this is even germane, as I never claimed KU was somehow a model of diversity, but where are you seeing current undergraduate enrollment numbers for both schools?

https://air.ku.edu/sites/air.ku.edu/files/docs/2019%20KU%20by%20the%20Numbers.pdf

https://www.k-state.edu/pa/cds/cds2020.pdf

https://www.k-state.edu/pa/data/public.html

Thanks. What has happened to KSU enrollment the past few years? I recall you guys getting a little pep in your step when UG enrollment surpassed KU.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #426 on: July 07, 2020, 03:10:12 PM »
I think kRusty's follow up was fine. Asking for input on how to improve life at the university is great.  Offering services or even just someone to listen is all great.

The condescension to me (and admit I may have taken kRusty's post the wrong way initially) is assuming that black students want or need to be checked on like the university is their mother.

I wade tenuously into these waters, as I'm not a KSU stakeholder. In Supreme Court jurisprudence, there is said to be a compelling interest in the level of diversity in institutions reaching a "critical mass", such that minority students are not looked to as being so-called spokespeople of their [insert]. In that sense, I understand catastrophe's point. I think soliciting input from minority students is good, but perhaps it would be better in a town hall kind of setting, or inviting voluntary submissions from students. Reaching out directly to someone based on their melanin content sure smacks of singling out individuals as spokespeople of their [insert].

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #427 on: July 07, 2020, 03:17:45 PM »
I think it's important you don't call black students and expect them to fix racism on campus. But jesus they're part of a community that was targeted in a high profile way, I don't think you need to worry about Supreme Court jurisprudence to start a conversation with that community about what happened and actions the university is taking.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #428 on: July 07, 2020, 03:22:10 PM »
I think it's important you don't call black students and expect them to fix racism on campus. But jesus they're part of a community that was targeted in a high profile way, I don't think you need to worry about Supreme Court jurisprudence to start a conversation with that community about what happened and actions the university is taking.

Supreme Court?   What . . . .


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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #429 on: July 07, 2020, 03:24:40 PM »
I think it's important you don't call black students and expect them to fix racism on campus. But jesus they're part of a community that was targeted in a high profile way, I don't think you need to worry about Supreme Court jurisprudence to start a conversation with that community about what happened and actions the university is taking.

I don't see that we are disagreeing, so that's good.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #430 on: July 07, 2020, 05:45:52 PM »
I try to empathize with feelings of minority students at state but haven't yet heard much in terms of concrete things that have made some of them feel unsafe. other than 1 of 1,000,000 offensive tweets on twitter one day that happened to come from a supposed KSU student.
is it just they are in such a minority that they are uncomfortable? that kinda makes sense
none of them have been very specific about why they feel uncomfortable. no specific examples other than a tweet
i believe them but also think maybe there is a little bit of jumping on the bandwagon. i know people on twitter have asked a couple of these kids quoted in the paper about specific points that led to feeling of unsafeness and the kids will not respond with specifics. When asked what KSU does not do that other colleges do there was no response.
i hope the administration is communicating with all these kids to enlighten our leaders. i've lived in the south. the cultures and people are OVER THE TOP RACIST. not sure there would even be  a story here if it weren't for a single tweet on a social media platform famous for being offensive

This is an honest question, as snooty as it sounds, but why would anyone need to prove anything to you? The fact that you feel like you need "concrete evidence" to feel empathetic is telling. If anyone, in any circumstance tells you they feel uncomfortable with something the absolute wrong move is to be like "oh yeah, prove it." Your need for proof before you feel you can do anything to help indicates a lack of empathy that is improbable to overcome as the proof you're seeking is tantamount to saying, "I don't believe you, convince me otherwise."

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #431 on: July 07, 2020, 05:59:57 PM »
I think kRusty's follow up was fine. Asking for input on how to improve life at the university is great.  Offering services or even just someone to listen is all great.

The condescension to me (and admit I may have taken kRusty's post the wrong way initially) is assuming that black students want or need to be checked on like the university is their mother.

This is a unique situation, and in this case the university is more important than their mother as their mothers wouldn't let jaden hang out in the house.

I can't speak for others but if I were a current student, I'd have questions about how the university planned to keep me safe, a phone call would let me know that there's at least considerations being made, the school has IMO done nothing to protect students of color from hate speech unless it fits a very narrow definition. To me that isn't acceptable and I'd want answers/assurances made, and it isn't like I can just march into Anderson Hall to get them.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #432 on: July 07, 2020, 06:11:01 PM »
Yeah idk about that. Honestly a little surprised by the statements in the article about feeling unsafe since the only publicized stuff I’m aware of were false flags.

Not doubting their feelings obviously, just clearly not a problem unique to KSU’s campus.

In this case it doesn't matter how unique it is to Kansas State, that's the university they attend so that's the only school that matters. Of course kso went off the rails when this article was posted. Instead of white K-Staters losing their crap, y'all/they/whatever should be happy the student's love K-State enough to stay and make it a better place.
Well it matters in the sense that many of those students likely aren’t leaving because they don’t expect to feel better off at any of their other options.

I'm going to ask instead of responding because it seems like you are rebutting my point about students asking for this to be fixed because they love the school they are at and want it to be better. I read your post as saying that the motivation is actually that they see K-State the best of all bad options. That isn't your point, right? If not what exactly is your point?

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #433 on: July 07, 2020, 06:37:34 PM »
From the article, here were the reasons offered for staying.

Quote
“I thought about transferring because of all of this,” she said. “But I came to K-State because of the veterinarian medicine program. It’s too hard to start over. It is easier to stay than to transfer.”

Besides, she said, she wants to stay and push for change. “But it feels like we are fighting a battle we should not have to fight. When minority students who want to come to K-State ask what it is like on campus, I want to be able to tell them that it’s safe, that they care about us.”

Quote
Molinar of Wichita said she doesn’t want to sound hopeless. “But I have thought about leaving K-State. And even considered it. But at the end of the day I am at K-State because I am an engineering student, it’s a good school for that and I’m there to get my degree.”

Quote
Ayana Belk, a graduate of Kansas City’s Lincoln College Preparatory Academy, said she feels trapped at K-State because she’s a junior majoring in landscape architecture. “With that major, it’s not easy to just go somewhere else,” the 20-year-old said.

“I did let them know that I didn’t want to come back to K-State and that I did want to transfer,” Belk said. “But I’m going back because my program does very well coming out of K-State.”

They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #434 on: July 07, 2020, 06:43:31 PM »
I'm general, tons of people prefer to be willfully ignorant when it comes to minorities wanting to change the status quo for the better.

Offline catastrophe

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Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #435 on: July 07, 2020, 06:58:07 PM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

Offline kashi1965

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #436 on: July 07, 2020, 07:58:08 PM »
From the article, here were the reasons offered for staying.

Quote
“I thought about transferring because of all of this,” she said. “But I came to K-State because of the veterinarian medicine program. It’s too hard to start over. It is easier to stay than to transfer.”

Besides, she said, she wants to stay and push for change. “But it feels like we are fighting a battle we should not have to fight. When minority students who want to come to K-State ask what it is like on campus, I want to be able to tell them that it’s safe, that they care about us.”

Quote
Molinar of Wichita said she doesn’t want to sound hopeless. “But I have thought about leaving K-State. And even considered it. But at the end of the day I am at K-State because I am an engineering student, it’s a good school for that and I’m there to get my degree.”

Quote
Ayana Belk, a graduate of Kansas City’s Lincoln College Preparatory Academy, said she feels trapped at K-State because she’s a junior majoring in landscape architecture. “With that major, it’s not easy to just go somewhere else,” the 20-year-old said.

“I did let them know that I didn’t want to come back to K-State and that I did want to transfer,” Belk said. “But I’m going back because my program does very well coming out of K-State.”

They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.
i get that if someone says they feel unsafe then they feel unsafe. I guess my interest is in understanding why that is the case. in none of those interviews did the student explain why they feel unsafe. how is anyone supposed to know how to address someones lack of personal security if they can't explain what makes them feel that way. i'm all for looking at improving whatever we need to improve. i just like to know what exactly are we trying to improve? is it wrong to want to understand why some students want to transfer but they won't explain why?

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #437 on: July 07, 2020, 08:01:39 PM »
I think kRusty's follow up was fine. Asking for input on how to improve life at the university is great.  Offering services or even just someone to listen is all great.

The condescension to me (and admit I may have taken kRusty's post the wrong way initially) is assuming that black students want or need to be checked on like the university is their mother.

This is a unique situation, and in this case the university is more important than their mother as their mothers wouldn't let jaden hang out in the house.

I can't speak for others but if I were a current student, I'd have questions about how the university planned to keep me safe, a phone call would let me know that there's at least considerations being made, the school has IMO done nothing to protect students of color from hate speech unless it fits a very narrow definition. To me that isn't acceptable and I'd want answers/assurances made, and it isn't like I can just march into Anderson Hall to get them.

And that goes back to our initial disagreement that the university has any responsibility to shield students (adults) from speech they don't like, particularly when it doesn't even happen on campus.

Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.
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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #438 on: July 07, 2020, 08:46:57 PM »



Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.

As I understand it from reading the article, it isn't about the tweet, it's about the culture. The tweet's a symptom (albeit an extra loud one) and the culture's the disease. It's a tweet combined with being called the n-word combined with lack of outreach combined with similar experiences other students have had combined with what some felt was a half hearted effort to deal with this. (All things mentioned by students other than the tweet)

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #439 on: July 07, 2020, 09:03:21 PM »



Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.

As I understand it from reading the article, it isn't about the tweet, it's about the culture. The tweet's a symptom (albeit an extra loud one) and the culture's the disease. It's a tweet combined with being called the n-word combined with lack of outreach combined with similar experiences other students have had combined with what some felt was a half hearted effort to deal with this. (All things mentioned by students other than the tweet)

Good point, I probably am focusing a little narrowly.
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Offline Katpappy

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #440 on: July 07, 2020, 09:06:29 PM »
Imagine if this turned k-state into a hotbed of diversity and inclusion?
Man, would be incred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article243962412.html

gah

Quote
”We encourage any student who feels threatened to contact the Office of Student Life,” said Jeff Morris, university spokesman. “We have a wide array of resources to help them. We have been working closely with many of our students and student athletes who have been affected by recent events.”

maybe Jeff could personally hit the phones and personally reach out to black students, regardless of whether or not they feel threatened? I think the students quoted have good points.

Rusty, did you see the protest march vid?  It looked like mostly white with a few blacks and I didn't notice any other people of color.  It seems there should have been more ppl of color at a march for their rights; again very strange.

Hot time in Kat town tonight.

Offline Katpappy

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #441 on: July 07, 2020, 09:16:36 PM »
actually when i looked up Jeff Morris, it probably isn't his job. But more outreach from KSU beyond "hey if you feel threatened, give us a call!" and "here's a list of possibly meaningless actions" would be nice.

I feel like this would be a great assignment for a person of color, not some white person stating crap for the sake of the university to show support.
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Offline kashi1965

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #442 on: July 07, 2020, 10:00:39 PM »



Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.

As I understand it from reading the article, it isn't about the tweet, it's about the culture. The tweet's a symptom (albeit an extra loud one) and the culture's the disease. It's a tweet combined with being called the n-word combined with lack of outreach combined with similar experiences other students have had combined with what some felt was a half hearted effort to deal with this. (All things mentioned by students other than the tweet)
your explanation still doesn't explain it. "similar experiences other students have had"? What are those experiences?  the tweet; lack of outreach; and half hearted effort (which i strongly disagree with) are not really part of a culture. those are separate items. so you didn't really name what the culture problem actually is. i dont hear the n word used often as an explanation of poor culture. i just hear culture. but no one can actually say what they are talking about. you didn't explain it either.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #443 on: July 07, 2020, 10:05:58 PM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

I'll take the people's words for it.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #444 on: July 07, 2020, 10:08:12 PM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

What exactly is wrong with you? These black students are liars that can't go to another school?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #445 on: July 07, 2020, 10:09:57 PM »
From the article, here were the reasons offered for staying.

Quote
“I thought about transferring because of all of this,” she said. “But I came to K-State because of the veterinarian medicine program. It’s too hard to start over. It is easier to stay than to transfer.”

Besides, she said, she wants to stay and push for change. “But it feels like we are fighting a battle we should not have to fight. When minority students who want to come to K-State ask what it is like on campus, I want to be able to tell them that it’s safe, that they care about us.”

Quote
Molinar of Wichita said she doesn’t want to sound hopeless. “But I have thought about leaving K-State. And even considered it. But at the end of the day I am at K-State because I am an engineering student, it’s a good school for that and I’m there to get my degree.”

Quote
Ayana Belk, a graduate of Kansas City’s Lincoln College Preparatory Academy, said she feels trapped at K-State because she’s a junior majoring in landscape architecture. “With that major, it’s not easy to just go somewhere else,” the 20-year-old said.

“I did let them know that I didn’t want to come back to K-State and that I did want to transfer,” Belk said. “But I’m going back because my program does very well coming out of K-State.”

They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.
i get that if someone says they feel unsafe then they feel unsafe. I guess my interest is in understanding why that is the case. in none of those interviews did the student explain why they feel unsafe. how is anyone supposed to know how to address someones lack of personal security if they can't explain what makes them feel that way. i'm all for looking at improving whatever we need to improve. i just like to know what exactly are we trying to improve? is it wrong to want to understand why some students want to transfer but they won't explain why?

Yes, it's wrong, and I've already explained to you why. Unless one of these students is your child they don't owe you or anyone else anything.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #446 on: July 07, 2020, 10:28:29 PM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

I'll take the people's words for it.

Same

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #447 on: July 07, 2020, 10:31:51 PM »
I think kRusty's follow up was fine. Asking for input on how to improve life at the university is great.  Offering services or even just someone to listen is all great.

The condescension to me (and admit I may have taken kRusty's post the wrong way initially) is assuming that black students want or need to be checked on like the university is their mother.

This is a unique situation, and in this case the university is more important than their mother as their mothers wouldn't let jaden hang out in the house.

I can't speak for others but if I were a current student, I'd have questions about how the university planned to keep me safe, a phone call would let me know that there's at least considerations being made, the school has IMO done nothing to protect students of color from hate speech unless it fits a very narrow definition. To me that isn't acceptable and I'd want answers/assurances made, and it isn't like I can just march into Anderson Hall to get them.

And that goes back to our initial disagreement that the university has any responsibility to shield students (adults) from speech they don't like, particularly when it doesn't even happen on campus.

Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.

This is the same argument people, including me, said when trump was elected. His embrace of white supremacy wouldn't lead to a spread of the viewpoint. Well I was wrong, it clearly did, his, I won't even call it a support, let's call it antipathy towards the spread of white supremacy has lead to people like jaden feeling much more comfortable spreading it publicly. With the prevalence of this spreading nationally. To me it seems perfectly rational to think that open white supremacy on the campus will be more prevalent given the school blinked when it stared them squarely in the face. At the very least the veil of fear of punishment any of them may have felt is gone. There's nothing stopping neo-nazis from standing outside of a Hillel meeting in the union, intimidating people who want to go in. There's nothing stopping jaden and his crew holding a no coons on campus protest on the quad in front of Eisenhower Hall. There's nothing stopping the Proud Boys from picketing Women's Studies classes. Sure, there was nothing stopping these things from happening before, but now there is absolutely no fear of sanctions from the school. All these things have been green lighted when there may have been some doubt previously.

It's also why people just throwing up their hands and saying speech has to be protected is so frustrating. What is protected speech is and always has been up for interpretation. What is defined as hate speech has changed. This was the time for K-State to stand up against clear hate speech and they didn't do it. The thought that "well it's legal and we can't do anything about" it is why Jim Crow laws were in place for as long as they were. You all are condoning cowardice and inaction when the opposite was needed. It is 100% a privilege to think there absolutely won't be negative consequences to students of color when the school showed that it won't do whatever it takes to protect them.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #448 on: July 07, 2020, 10:32:23 PM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

I'll take the people's words for it.

Same

Work on your comprehension

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #449 on: July 07, 2020, 10:37:41 PM »
They’re not saying race relations would be just as bad elsewhere. They’re saying they’ll deal with shitty race relations at KSU because given their majors, finishing at KSU is worth it.

They’re saying that among schools with programs at KSU’s level, they don’t see better options.

What exactly is wrong with you? These black students are liars that can't go to another school?

Well that is rich suggesting that I don't believe the students.  I'm extrapolating from the actual statements, whereas you appeared to have pulled this completely from your entire ass:

Instead of white K-Staters losing their crap, y'all/they/whatever should be happy the student's love K-State enough to stay and make it a better place.

The students quoted in the article never said they stayed at K-State because they loved it or that they wanted to make it a better place.  They said they stayed because they did not have better options to transfer for the degrees they were pursuing.  And whatever the race-related issues they experienced, they were not enough to make them want to take their credits elsewhere.  I have no doubt they had plenty of options.

If anything this shows that if universities like KSU want to attract diverse students, it HAS to be a combination of both (1) increasing cultural awareness and tolerance campus wide; and (2) focusing on providing high quality programs to attract quality students.  The fact the quoted students were dedicated to KSU's veterinary and engineering programs is really no surprise to me.  Those are two of the best programs K-State has to offer.