Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 107476 times)

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1250 on: July 11, 2020, 08:01:47 AM »

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1251 on: July 11, 2020, 01:37:13 PM »
Gross humans
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1252 on: July 11, 2020, 02:52:45 PM »
Gross humans

But a very entertaining story
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1253 on: July 12, 2020, 11:53:43 AM »
Gross humans

But a very entertaining story

I wasn't entertained at all, in fact I couldn't finish it. The story about the Jewish school was a bit too much, I was getting physically disgusted. I dipped out midway though the story about him suing his father's estate.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1254 on: July 12, 2020, 11:58:29 AM »
Gross humans

But a very entertaining story

I wasn't entertained at all, in fact I couldn't finish it. The story about the Jewish school was a bit too much, I was getting physically disgusted. I dipped out midway though the story about him suing his father's estate.
Yeah I was pretty much the same

Offline steve dave

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1255 on: July 12, 2020, 06:14:19 PM »

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1256 on: July 12, 2020, 07:03:05 PM »
Can’t help it

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"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1258 on: July 14, 2020, 07:10:56 PM »
he also made sure to point out that more white people are killed by police than black people
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1260 on: July 14, 2020, 08:48:59 PM »
He is just the worst. 
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1261 on: July 14, 2020, 08:52:26 PM »
He is just the worst.
Not for several people on this blog! To them he’s the best president ever!
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1262 on: July 17, 2020, 10:35:17 AM »
these are more focused on incarceration than policing per se.  obviously connected, but of the two, excess incarceration is the larger problem.

https://twitter.com/GNewburn/status/1284134965161205761
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1263 on: July 17, 2020, 04:39:52 PM »
Excessive incarceration, right in Joe Biden's wheelhouse.


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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1264 on: July 17, 2020, 05:58:01 PM »
these are more focused on incarceration than policing per se.  obviously connected, but of the two, excess incarceration is the larger problem.

https://twitter.com/GNewburn/status/1284134965161205761

These are great, two of them I wholeheartedly disagree with though. I love number two, essentially merging DAs with public defenders offices, although this could lead to big problems. The "judged by other factors" component can't be glazed over.

The two components I disagree with is with the appointment of judges instead of electing them. Who is appointing them? The best way to keep judges in check is to hold them accountable to less people? Nah, that ain't it. Aaron Persky is what should happen to judges who commit miscarriages of justice. There is a chance he doesn't lose his job if he's appointed by a person or a small board. The reform for judges should, like everyone else elected, be term limits.

The second component that I think is problematic is the removal of plea bargains. Implementing this would have to come with massive sentencing reform that isn't coming. Yes, the plea bargain system can be abused, but it's also used to keep people out of jail. This is like getting rid of SNAP because a small number of people abuse the system.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1265 on: July 17, 2020, 06:17:21 PM »
these are more focused on incarceration than policing per se.  obviously connected, but of the two, excess incarceration is the larger problem.

https://twitter.com/GNewburn/status/1284134965161205761

These are great, two of them I wholeheartedly disagree with though. I love number two, essentially merging DAs with public defenders offices, although this could lead to big problems. The "judged by other factors" component can't be glazed over.

The two components I disagree with is with the appointment of judges instead of electing them. Who is appointing them? The best way to keep judges in check is to hold them accountable to less people? Nah, that ain't it. Aaron Persky is what should happen to judges who commit miscarriages of justice. There is a chance he doesn't lose his job if he's appointed by a person or a small board. The reform for judges should, like everyone else elected, be term limits.

The second component that I think is problematic is the removal of plea bargains. Implementing this would have to come with massive sentencing reform that isn't coming. Yes, the plea bargain system can be abused, but it's also used to keep people out of jail. This is like getting rid of SNAP because a small number of people abuse the system.
I think number 9 covers that. I agree with all of them for the most part.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1266 on: July 17, 2020, 06:56:47 PM »
I did not know that about the Athenian system, but that sounds awesome. I would implement that tomorrow.

I wholeheartedly disagree with MIR's view regarding elected vs. appointed judges. I could not possibly disagree more with every single point he made in that regard. I don't even know where to start...

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1267 on: July 17, 2020, 08:55:38 PM »
I did not know that about the Athenian system, but that sounds awesome. I would implement that tomorrow.

I wholeheartedly disagree with MIR's view regarding elected vs. appointed judges. I could not possibly disagree more with every single point he made in that regard. I don't even know where to start...

It's seems that in most cases the person on trial is not completely guilty or innocent.  I would think the prosecutor and defense attorney should set with the jury to determine the extent of guilt, as a set 1 to 10 for determining punishment if any.  I think this would be a closer accounting of the crime.       
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Offline catastrophe

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The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1268 on: July 17, 2020, 10:00:17 PM »
Electing judges doesn’t make them accountable to the people, it makes them beholden to special interests. Which is fine IMO if we’re talking policy makers, but pretty mumped up when you’re talking about someone whose entire job is being impartial.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1269 on: July 18, 2020, 03:02:48 AM »
I did not know that about the Athenian system, but that sounds awesome. I would implement that tomorrow.

I wholeheartedly disagree with MIR's view regarding elected vs. appointed judges. I could not possibly disagree more with every single point he made in that regard. I don't even know where to start...

It's seems that in most cases the person on trial is not completely guilty or innocent.  I would think the prosecutor and defense attorney should set with the jury to determine the extent of guilt, as a set 1 to 10 for determining punishment if any.  I think this would be a closer accounting of the crime.     

Zackly. And that's why things like mandatory minimum sentences are BS, because it leaves no room for consideration of other relevant factors. I really love the idea of taking the reasonableness of sentencing out of the hands of the state and placing it in the hands of the people. That changes everything.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1270 on: July 18, 2020, 04:18:48 AM »
Electing judges doesn’t make them accountable to the people, it makes them beholden to special interests. Which is fine IMO if we’re talking policy makers, but pretty mumped up when you’re talking about someone whose entire job is being impartial.

How would appointing judges make them any less potentially corruptable or impartial? First of all it's important to establish who exactly would be selecting these judges. Is it a government being in said jurisdictions? Do we really want small local governments selecting the police and the judges? Even on a state level, take states like Arkansas or Massachusetts, whose state power structure is completely centered around one party, are we letting these people select all judges? Again if you're involving our two party system in any of this, you're inviting potential corruption and definite partisanship.

The Cato article mentioned a nebulous, "like Europe does." What does that mean? All European countries have different ways of selecting judges. In England the queens selects judges based on advice of the PM who gets his/her info from a panel.

It's easy to disagree without offering anything even close to resembling a solution. The only issue with electing judges is that the electorate are far too disinterested in the process, and laziness isn't a good enough reason to disassemble an institution without a viable alternative.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1271 on: July 18, 2020, 04:31:48 AM »
I did not know that about the Athenian system, but that sounds awesome. I would implement that tomorrow.

I wholeheartedly disagree with MIR's view regarding elected vs. appointed judges. I could not possibly disagree more with every single point he made in that regard. I don't even know where to start...

It's seems that in most cases the person on trial is not completely guilty or innocent.  I would think the prosecutor and defense attorney should set with the jury to determine the extent of guilt, as a set 1 to 10 for determining punishment if any.  I think this would be a closer accounting of the crime.     

No, you need to be completely guilty to be found guilty. Getting into degrees of guilt lowers the burden for proving guilt, that can't happen. Plea bargains shouldn't be used as a way for prosecutors to hedge their bets, they should be used for keeping people out of jail who may be guilty of a crime but who don't belong in jail.

Spracne, I'm not going to play the dax/tbt game with you. If you want to discuss something I've posted I'll be happy to do so, what I'm not going to do is engage in the pointless bullshit you pulled in your last reply to me. If you can't convey a coherent thought for me to address, I don't know why bother replying. If your point was simply that you disagree but can't tell us why, you have to know that literally no one cares who you disagree with. It's a message board, in which people give their opinions on various topics, it's a given that people will disagree, simply disagreeing with someone/anyone is in no way noteworthy. IMO.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1272 on: July 18, 2020, 05:14:08 AM »
I did not know that about the Athenian system, but that sounds awesome. I would implement that tomorrow.

I wholeheartedly disagree with MIR's view regarding elected vs. appointed judges. I could not possibly disagree more with every single point he made in that regard. I don't even know where to start...

It's seems that in most cases the person on trial is not completely guilty or innocent.  I would think the prosecutor and defense attorney should set with the jury to determine the extent of guilt, as a set 1 to 10 for determining punishment if any.  I think this would be a closer accounting of the crime.     

No, you need to be completely guilty to be found guilty. Getting into degrees of guilt lowers the burden for proving guilt, that can't happen. Plea bargains shouldn't be used as a way for prosecutors to hedge their bets, they should be used for keeping people out of jail who may be guilty of a crime but who don't belong in jail.

Spracne, I'm not going to play the dax/tbt game with you. If you want to discuss something I've posted I'll be happy to do so, what I'm not going to do is engage in the pointless bullshit you pulled in your last reply to me. If you can't convey a coherent thought for me to address, I don't know why bother replying. If your point was simply that you disagree but can't tell us why, you have to know that literally no one cares who you disagree with. It's a message board, in which people give their opinions on various topics, it's a given that people will disagree, simply disagreeing with someone/anyone is in no way noteworthy. IMO.

In that case, I'm glad you asked. The people who founded this Country put at least a little thought into the new form of government they were creating from whole cloth. What we ended up with is now familiar, but at the time it was truly novel. Certain of these concepts were codified in our Constitution, and so they have endured.

The whole concept of a third branch of government was to act as a check on the more mercurial, political branches of government. To that end, it was decided that judges were to be appointed for life, pending good behavior (NB: this is the "check"; judicial officers may be impeached and removed for good cause).

Why would we appoint judges for life tenure, subject to good behavior? Because, that is the best way to promote impartiality and independence. Hopefully, only qualified jurists would be elevated to such a position, and they should be allowed to exercise their independent judgment without political pressure or perverse incentives. But in most state court systems, the judges who are actually incarcerating your run-of-the-mill "criminals" are elected officials. Their interests are often the same as the local D.A., i.e., to appear as "tough on crime" as the local voters prefer, even if the local sentiments are less than, uh, enlightened.

As catastrophe said, the electorate has proven themselves to be incompetent when it comes to this. Candidly, federal judges--who are appointed for life--are almost always far more competent than their state court peers.

In short, I believe wholeheartedly that, once appointed, judges should be removed from influence by political pressures.
 

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1273 on: July 18, 2020, 09:53:33 AM »
Electing judges doesn’t make them accountable to the people, it makes them beholden to special interests. Which is fine IMO if we’re talking policy makers, but pretty mumped up when you’re talking about someone whose entire job is being impartial.

How would appointing judges make them any less potentially corruptable or impartial? First of all it's important to establish who exactly would be selecting these judges. Is it a government being in said jurisdictions? Do we really want small local governments selecting the police and the judges? Even on a state level, take states like Arkansas or Massachusetts, whose state power structure is completely centered around one party, are we letting these people select all judges? Again if you're involving our two party system in any of this, you're inviting potential corruption and definite partisanship.

The Cato article mentioned a nebulous, "like Europe does." What does that mean? All European countries have different ways of selecting judges. In England the queens selects judges based on advice of the PM who gets his/her info from a panel.

It's easy to disagree without offering anything even close to resembling a solution. The only issue with electing judges is that the electorate are far too disinterested in the process, and laziness isn't a good enough reason to disassemble an institution without a viable alternative.

There’s still the risk of partisanship among appointed judges, but not nearly as much as elected ones. The Supreme Court has had plenty of examples of appointed conservatives/liberals shifting to the other side. Regardless, you’re talking about an ideological problem, which is still way better than putting judges in a position where they might feel a personal stake in how a case is decided because of political consequences.

Which goes to your last point. An interested electorate wouldn’t fix the issue. It could make it worse if you had factions trying to intervene during cases to influence the outcomes.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1274 on: July 18, 2020, 08:16:29 PM »
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