Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 111236 times)

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Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1200 on: June 23, 2020, 01:29:58 PM »
so Trey if i'm understanding your point, the BLM movement is -- on the whole -- doing an overwhelming amount good...and just because it isn't perfect that doesn't mean that it deserves to be...torn down?

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1201 on: June 23, 2020, 01:51:48 PM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1202 on: June 23, 2020, 02:05:11 PM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.

Show us some of your best statue pulling knots, cRusty


Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1203 on: June 23, 2020, 02:53:22 PM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.

Fedor appears to have been saying that, i was just pointing out the general irony of trey's position.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1204 on: June 23, 2020, 03:13:00 PM »
This debate has been a chance to learn just how pathetic and weak the confederacy was

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1205 on: June 23, 2020, 03:47:37 PM »
This debate has been a chance to learn just how pathetic and weak the confederacy was

Its supporters really want to hold onto their participation trophies.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1206 on: June 23, 2020, 03:51:32 PM »
I hope @Trim spends his CHOP bucks soon.  May have a substantial currency devaluation coming.




Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1207 on: June 23, 2020, 05:54:41 PM »
(burned out) Wendy's in South Atlanta is now basically an armed camp: Pistols, long guns, shootings, road blocks.

Predominately impacting black people who live in the area, and who are sick of it.    ATL cops; no where to be found.

No sustained cries for arrest of those who are armed from the Useful Idiot Political Left.  Very weird.




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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1208 on: June 23, 2020, 05:58:36 PM »
Atlanta PD is having a temper tantrum because cops are actually being held responsible for their actions
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline treysolid

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1209 on: June 24, 2020, 12:58:57 AM »
so Trey if i'm understanding your point, the BLM movement is -- on the whole -- doing an overwhelming amount good...and just because it isn't perfect that doesn't mean that it deserves to be...torn down?

I'm sorry - are you suggesting that a USG statue has been an overwhelming force for good? Or that confederate statues are are overwhelming force for good? Or that the confederacy was an overwhelming force for good?

Offline 8manpick

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1210 on: June 24, 2020, 08:32:43 AM »
so Trey if i'm understanding your point, the BLM movement is -- on the whole -- doing an overwhelming amount good...and just because it isn't perfect that doesn't mean that it deserves to be...torn down?

I'm sorry - are you suggesting that a USG statue has been an overwhelming force for good? Or that confederate statues are are overwhelming force for good? Or that the confederacy was an overwhelming force for good?

I will suggest that Ulysses S Grant was an overwhelming force for good, and is worth celebrating with, say, a statue.
:adios:

Offline DQ12

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1211 on: June 24, 2020, 09:25:57 AM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1212 on: June 24, 2020, 09:34:39 AM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.

eh, re-read Fedor's and BAC's posts

Offline DQ12

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1213 on: June 24, 2020, 09:45:45 AM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.

eh, re-read Fedor's and BAC's posts
Good point. 

It's an interesting thought though.  If "bad apples" (and their associated non-condemnors) are representative of the police, shouldn't they be representative of the protesters?  Probably not, but it's worth thinking about a little bit, even if only to enlighten fedor/bac.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1214 on: June 24, 2020, 09:51:44 AM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.

eh, re-read Fedor's and BAC's posts
Good point. 

It's an interesting thought though.  If "bad apples" (and their associated non-condemnors) are representative of the police, shouldn't they be representative of the protesters?  Probably not, but it's worth thinking about a little bit, even if only to enlighten fedor/bac.

well one bad apple is committing murder while officially representing their organization and the other is committing vandalism while not representing any organization. But both are wrong! so I guess they are the same.

great thought experiment

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1215 on: June 24, 2020, 10:40:44 AM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.

eh, re-read Fedor's and BAC's posts
Good point. 

It's an interesting thought though.  If "bad apples" (and their associated non-condemnors) are representative of the police, shouldn't they be representative of the protesters?  Probably not, but it's worth thinking about a little bit, even if only to enlighten fedor/bac.

well one bad apple is committing murder while officially representing their organization and the other is committing vandalism while not representing any organization. But both are wrong! so I guess they are the same.

great thought experiment
damn guys lets just hold up for one second. Y'all mfrs completely missed the point of my original post. had nothing to do with supporting the police or preserving confederate statues don't lump me in with that nonsense.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1216 on: June 24, 2020, 10:42:14 AM »
Who cares about these dumb statues? It's not going to lead to an erasure of history or anything. These statues are seen by such a small percentage of the population. The black civil war regimen memorial in Boston, we talked about in another thread, I didn't even know existed and I lived in Boston. I'm more concerned with businesses like the Wendy's being burned, people work at those places. No one works at a statue.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1217 on: June 24, 2020, 10:48:33 AM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.

eh, re-read Fedor's and BAC's posts
Good point. 

It's an interesting thought though.  If "bad apples" (and their associated non-condemnors) are representative of the police, shouldn't they be representative of the protesters?  Probably not, but it's worth thinking about a little bit, even if only to enlighten fedor/bac.

well one bad apple is committing murder while officially representing their organization and the other is committing vandalism while not representing any organization. But both are wrong! so I guess they are the same.

great thought experiment
I think protesters are representative of the protest movement. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline DQ12

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1218 on: June 24, 2020, 10:51:40 AM »
Who cares about these dumb statues? It's not going to lead to an erasure of history or anything. These statues are seen by such a small percentage of the population. The black civil war regimen memorial in Boston, we talked about in another thread, I didn't even know existed and I lived in Boston. I'm more concerned with businesses like the Wendy's being burned, people work at those places. No one works at a statue.
I don't care about the statues very much.  But I do think symbols are important.  That's why I think it's OK and understand the importance of toppling statues honoring confederate symbols and why I'm opposed to toppling statues honoring people for doing legitimately great things.

I don't think toppling the statue of USG (or whichever "good guy") is some zeitgeist issue or anything, but I do think it reflects poorly on the individuals doing it and instances like it detract from the broader movement.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1219 on: June 24, 2020, 10:55:04 AM »
From experience with goalposts, it’s probably exhilarating to get with a bunch of people with relatively common interests and tear down anything.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1220 on: June 24, 2020, 11:25:07 AM »
Who cares about these dumb statues? It's not going to lead to an erasure of history or anything. These statues are seen by such a small percentage of the population. The black civil war regimen memorial in Boston, we talked about in another thread, I didn't even know existed and I lived in Boston. I'm more concerned with businesses like the Wendy's being burned, people work at those places. No one works at a statue.
I don't care about the statues very much.  But I do think symbols are important.  That's why I think it's OK and understand the importance of toppling statues honoring confederate symbols and why I'm opposed to toppling statues honoring people for doing legitimately great things.

I don't think toppling the statue of USG (or whichever "good guy") is some zeitgeist issue or anything, but I do think it reflects poorly on the individuals doing it and instances like it detract from the broader movement.

Eye of the beholder though, who determines what's good other than the person/people taking the statues down? In for a penny, in for a pound. Also in this specific case, I will strongly disagree that taking down a structure that you (general term) don't think should be taken down, takes away from the larger movement. First of all, that's a personal choice, for you to draw anything bigger out of, someone doing that. Secondly, what larger movement are we attributing this to? It isn't like this is a coordinated effort, it's just different people all around the world doing it. These people almost certainly have different motivations.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1221 on: June 24, 2020, 11:50:01 AM »
Who cares about these dumb statues? It's not going to lead to an erasure of history or anything. These statues are seen by such a small percentage of the population. The black civil war regimen memorial in Boston, we talked about in another thread, I didn't even know existed and I lived in Boston. I'm more concerned with businesses like the Wendy's being burned, people work at those places. No one works at a statue.
I don't care about the statues very much.  But I do think symbols are important.  That's why I think it's OK and understand the importance of toppling statues honoring confederate symbols and why I'm opposed to toppling statues honoring people for doing legitimately great things.

I don't think toppling the statue of USG (or whichever "good guy") is some zeitgeist issue or anything, but I do think it reflects poorly on the individuals doing it and instances like it detract from the broader movement.

Eye of the beholder though, who determines what's good other than the person/people taking the statues down? In for a penny, in for a pound. Also in this specific case, I will strongly disagree that taking down a structure that you (general term) don't think should be taken down, takes away from the larger movement. First of all, that's a personal choice, for you to draw anything bigger out of, someone doing that. Secondly, what larger movement are we attributing this to? It isn't like this is a coordinated effort, it's just different people all around the world doing it. These people almost certainly have different motivations.
Of course it's eye of the beholder.  Who determines what's good?  I do.  So do you.  I think we can both have opinions about historical figures to determine whether or not we think defacing a particular statue is good, bad, or neutral.  I'd place defacing a John C. Calhoun statue somewhere on the good/neutral continuum.  I'd place defacing a USG statue near or at "bad."  It bothers me some if a statue of USG or someone else I admire is destroyed. 

I agree that it's unfair to take single instances of (perceived) bad behavior and attribute it to a wider, amorphous group, when that group doesn't endorse that behavior, and I try to my best not to do that.  But I think that's kind of the environment we're in.  When you have a broad protest movement across the country countering racial injustice, and, (apparently) it bleeds into destroying statues of people who had nothing to do with racial injustice or actively fought against it, it can appear inconsistent with the broader movement.  I'm not holding BLM or the Protest (in general) accountable for it, but I do think these instances harm the message of the broader movement.  It's easy (even if wrong) to look at the defacement of a USG statue and think "ok 'the protests' have jumped the shark" -- which is shitty. 


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Offline catastrophe

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The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1222 on: June 24, 2020, 12:50:22 PM »
are you dumbasses really comparing BLM-adjacent protests tearing down Grant's statue to cops straight up murdering people?

Jesus Christ.
I don't think anyone's doing that.  I think people are pointing out the absurdity of this discreet act, and others, for some reason, think it's their responsibility to defend the act.

The easy-out here is saying "yeah those people are wrong for doing that" and we all move on.

eh, re-read Fedor's and BAC's posts
Good point. 

It's an interesting thought though.  If "bad apples" (and their associated non-condemnors) are representative of the police, shouldn't they be representative of the protesters?  Probably not, but it's worth thinking about a little bit, even if only to enlighten fedor/bac.

well one bad apple is committing murder while officially representing their organization and the other is committing vandalism while not representing any organization. But both are wrong! so I guess they are the same.

great thought experiment
I think protesters are representative of the protest movement.
The bigger issue (which is getting buried now) is the poisonous mindset that you need to defend the bad apples because if you don’t it will undermine the greater good being done.

It’s the excuse Republicans used to back Trump

It’s the excuse decent police officers use to refrain from reporting on a fellow officer or telling them to BTFO in the moment

And it’s the excuse being used to defend the actions of some idiot BLM protestors

We could do a lot to combat tribalism if everyone just got in the habit of calling out stuff that is plainly bad

Offline sys

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1223 on: June 24, 2020, 01:51:20 PM »
a good way to avoid people generalizing from a small number of people vandalizing public property to a larger movement is for people involved with, or supportive of, the movement to say - "oh, hey, those people that just tore down a statue of a genuine civil war hero are dumbasses." instead of defending them.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1224 on: June 24, 2020, 01:52:44 PM »
a good way to avoid people generalizing from a small number of people vandalizing public property to a larger movement is for people involved with, or supportive of, the movement to say - "oh, hey, those people that just tore down a statue of a genuine civil war hero are dumbasses." instead of defending them.

who is defending them?