Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 108842 times)

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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #725 on: June 02, 2020, 10:18:09 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

Given their qualifications and alternatives they get paid well in large metros in most areas of the country which speaks to how bad the job apparently is re: the high turnover.

The man said they aren't paid well and that isn't factual. They make enough to be able to hire, if they don't that's pretty easy to fix. I just listed starting salaries in a metropolitan area in one of the lowest cost of living in the country over $50,000. That can easily be fixed everywhere, it isn't like civilians have any thing to do with salaries, they're public employees.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out).

depends completely on the jurisdiction.  there are lots of places were police are well paid blue collar jobs.

It's not nearly enough given their task.

You both know that they have the ability to make the task decidedly less shitty right? Working in beef packing plants is a crap job, it was much more shitty before Upton Sinclair shamed the industry and the government into fixing it. Making the job better is precisely why reforms are needed.

I agree we should make the job better for cops.  Still their job will always be enforce laws.  Changing the dumb laws they have to enforce will take longer than your other list.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #726 on: June 02, 2020, 10:19:56 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

I'm only asking what reforms you think would attract more minority cops. bolded above.

On the short term, there isn't much that will make any significant impact. The greatest reason that there aren't minority cops is goes all the way back before the country was ever founded, I'd hope you know that. We live in highly segregated areas but have never been allowed to police in the same way. You're not going to overturn hundreds of years of distrust in a matter of months or even years. My mother's generation had to be subjected to cops being the front line in the government pushing back in a battle for civil rights. It's obviously going to be a long and hard transformation, but it has to start somewhere. Here's what I'd do.

1. I would only hire officers that live in my city, especially in metro areas.
2. Police need hiring quotas to assist in representation
3. I balk at busting police unions, but they have been a strong barrier to community policing and representation in police departments.
4. Police departments should invest in education in our cities and not just by putting substations in black neighborhoods. Invest in scholarships, have more programs in small colleges, and not just some community colleges.
5. Partner with secondary schools to have plain clothed officers assist in educational programs. There is a national organization called Jobs for America's Graduates who would be perfect to partner with.
6. Have a presence, plain clothed, no guns, in community events. Host some of these events, block parties, farmers markets in food deserts.

There is literally a eff ton of things they can do if they actually wanted to do so.

I like all of these.  I'd add in a lot more training for PD in how to disarm violent conventation and self-control especially given in the short term we're not going to be able to flip over PD personnel overnight.

Like you said, these are all long term things and we've been dealing with this for way longer than we've been alive so what reforms are we going to make that are going to make more minorities want to be cops or am I just dealing with cops are fucktards till I'm dead?

Yes, you will but that's largely due to police unions and most of the public not actually having the appetite to demand change and hold elected officials accountable who won't force the changes needed.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #727 on: June 02, 2020, 10:23:47 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

I'm only asking what reforms you think would attract more minority cops. bolded above.

On the short term, there isn't much that will make any significant impact. The greatest reason that there aren't minority cops is goes all the way back before the country was ever founded, I'd hope you know that. We live in highly segregated areas but have never been allowed to police in the same way. You're not going to overturn hundreds of years of distrust in a matter of months or even years. My mother's generation had to be subjected to cops being the front line in the government pushing back in a battle for civil rights. It's obviously going to be a long and hard transformation, but it has to start somewhere. Here's what I'd do.

1. I would only hire officers that live in my city, especially in metro areas.
2. Police need hiring quotas to assist in representation
3. I balk at busting police unions, but they have been a strong barrier to community policing and representation in police departments.
4. Police departments should invest in education in our cities and not just by putting substations in black neighborhoods. Invest in scholarships, have more programs in small colleges, and not just some community colleges.
5. Partner with secondary schools to have plain clothed officers assist in educational programs. There is a national organization called Jobs for America's Graduates who would be perfect to partner with.
6. Have a presence, plain clothed, no guns, in community events. Host some of these events, block parties, farmers markets in food deserts.

There is literally a eff ton of things they can do if they actually wanted to do so.

I like all of these.  I'd add in a lot more training for PD in how to disarm violent conventation and self-control especially given in the short term we're not going to be able to flip over PD personnel overnight.

Like you said, these are all long term things and we've been dealing with this for way longer than we've been alive so what reforms are we going to make that are going to make more minorities want to be cops or am I just dealing with cops are fucktards till I'm dead?

Yes, you will but that's largely due to police unions and most of the public not actually having the appetite to demand change and hold elected officials accountable who won't force the changes needed.

So #4 or not?  The FOP is definatley a bigger problem than any one PD.

I don't know many in the public who don't have the appetite for change.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #728 on: June 02, 2020, 10:28:09 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

Given their qualifications and alternatives they get paid well in large metros in most areas of the country which speaks to how bad the job apparently is re: the high turnover.

The man said they aren't paid well and that isn't factual. They make enough to be able to hire, if they don't that's pretty easy to fix. I just listed starting salaries in a metropolitan area in one of the lowest cost of living in the country over $50,000. That can easily be fixed everywhere, it isn't like civilians have any thing to do with salaries, they're public employees.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out).

depends completely on the jurisdiction.  there are lots of places were police are well paid blue collar jobs.

It's not nearly enough given their task.

You both know that they have the ability to make the task decidedly less shitty right? Working in beef packing plants is a crap job, it was much more shitty before Upton Sinclair shamed the industry and the government into fixing it. Making the job better is precisely why reforms are needed.

I agree we should make the job better for cops.  Still their job will always be enforce laws.  Changing the dumb laws they have to enforce will take longer than your other list.

Phil, I like you but this is a tired excuse. Only in third world counties and banana republics are cops viewed the way that they are here. In the developed world our relationship with officers is unique and we're rightfully mocked for it. Those places have the same laws that we do, including drug laws for the most part. This is a problem of their own creation.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #729 on: June 02, 2020, 10:28:19 PM »
So shockingly de-escalation is working.  KCPD can stand there all night, they are getting OT.

https://twitter.com/fox4kc/status/1268020631754375171

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #730 on: June 02, 2020, 10:33:00 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

Given their qualifications and alternatives they get paid well in large metros in most areas of the country which speaks to how bad the job apparently is re: the high turnover.

The man said they aren't paid well and that isn't factual. They make enough to be able to hire, if they don't that's pretty easy to fix. I just listed starting salaries in a metropolitan area in one of the lowest cost of living in the country over $50,000. That can easily be fixed everywhere, it isn't like civilians have any thing to do with salaries, they're public employees.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out).

depends completely on the jurisdiction.  there are lots of places were police are well paid blue collar jobs.

It's not nearly enough given their task.

You both know that they have the ability to make the task decidedly less shitty right? Working in beef packing plants is a crap job, it was much more shitty before Upton Sinclair shamed the industry and the government into fixing it. Making the job better is precisely why reforms are needed.

I agree we should make the job better for cops.  Still their job will always be enforce laws.  Changing the dumb laws they have to enforce will take longer than your other list.

Phil, I like you but this is a tired excuse. Only in third world counties and banana republics are cops viewed the way that they are here. In the developed world our relationship with officers is unique and we're rightfully mocked for it. Those places have the same laws that we do, including drug laws for the most part. This is a problem of their own creation.

Not blaming the laws alone at all.  We do have a a lot of dumb laws but I do think prioritization of which are enforced more staunchly by the PD in America needs to be reformed and that again is probably not something the PD decides alone but politicians leaning into to PD leaderhsip.  Add it to the list.

I'm not willing to accept that this is how US citizens and PD has to be until I'm gone. 

Offline sys

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #731 on: June 02, 2020, 10:48:28 PM »
I'm not sure what "most dangerous" job means to you but few sane persons wants to do that.  They either have a huge desire to help the community (few of them) or a raging boner to have power (lot of them) at these paygrades.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

the fact that you (and i) don't know people that want to be cops doesn't mean they don't exist.  it means that you and i exist in different social circles from those people.  it's a fairly well-paid, fairly high-prestige blue collar job.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #732 on: June 02, 2020, 10:56:27 PM »
I'm not sure what "most dangerous" job means to you but few sane persons wants to do that.  They either have a huge desire to help the community (few of them) or a raging boner to have power (lot of them) at these paygrades.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

the fact that you (and i) don't know people that want to be cops doesn't mean they don't exist.  it means that you and i exist in different social circles from those people.  it's a fairly well-paid, fairly high-prestige blue collar job.

I know people who wanted to be cops.  Who are cops.  By and large they shouldn't be cops (edit: given the training I know they didn't get to modify their attitudes/behaviors).  Would paying cops more change those who want to be cops?  I'm not sure.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #733 on: June 02, 2020, 11:13:56 PM »
I'm not sure what "most dangerous" job means to you but few sane persons wants to do that.  They either have a huge desire to help the community (few of them) or a raging boner to have power (lot of them) at these paygrades.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0020.pdf

the fact that you (and i) don't know people that want to be cops doesn't mean they don't exist.  it means that you and i exist in different social circles from those people.  it's a fairly well-paid, fairly high-prestige blue collar job.

I know people who wanted to be cops.  Who are cops.  By and large they shouldn't be cops (edit: given the training I know they didn't get to modify their attitudes/behaviors).  Would paying cops more change those who want to be cops?  I'm not sure.

Absolutely not.

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #734 on: June 02, 2020, 11:15:42 PM »
lol what a joke. Content was directed to dear leader.

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #735 on: June 02, 2020, 11:28:42 PM »
12 hours isn't so bad. I've had a 3 day suspension. I'm guessing my next one is my last one.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #736 on: June 02, 2020, 11:31:47 PM »
lol what a joke. Content was directed to dear leader.


Well? What did you say?

Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #737 on: June 02, 2020, 11:36:55 PM »
lol what a joke. Content was directed to dear leader.


Well? What did you say?
Lot of F bombs calling him a bone spur coward type stuff. Maybe some female organ name calling. I guess I also commented strongly on the Steve King defeat calling him a rough ridin' racist piece of crap. I do feel better getting this all off my chest jbh
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #738 on: June 02, 2020, 11:40:25 PM »
lol what a joke. Content was directed to dear leader.


Well? What did you say?
Lot of F bombs calling him a bone spur coward type stuff. Maybe some female organ name calling. I guess I also commented strongly on the Steve King defeat calling him a rough ridin' racist piece of crap. I do feel better getting this all off my chest jbh

I mean that's my entire thread, you sure you didn't threaten him? I got the 12 hours for telling some dude to eat crap and die because he was talking crap on Holly Rowe. I got the three days for calling Candace Owens a coon.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #739 on: June 02, 2020, 11:53:04 PM »
lol what a joke. Content was directed to dear leader.


Well? What did you say?
Lot of F bombs calling him a bone spur coward type stuff. Maybe some female organ name calling. I guess I also commented strongly on the Steve King defeat calling him a rough ridin' racist piece of crap. I do feel better getting this all off my chest jbh

I mean that's my entire thread, you sure you didn't threaten him? I got the 12 hours for telling some dude to eat crap and die because he was talking crap on Holly Rowe. I got the three days for calling Candace Owens a coon.

No threats, just strong words.  I feel like both POS's needed to hear it, they didn't, but I feel better saying it.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #742 on: June 03, 2020, 12:10:09 AM »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #748 on: June 03, 2020, 08:09:13 AM »

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:adios: