Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 105350 times)

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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #700 on: June 02, 2020, 09:27:42 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change? 


Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #701 on: June 02, 2020, 09:28:56 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #702 on: June 02, 2020, 09:30:03 PM »


There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.

And why is that? Because they don't care if they get shitty people. If they cared about getting good people, they'd pay more and try to make it safer

Who is "they"?  How much of the public bemoan any crime that "we need MORE cops".

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #703 on: June 02, 2020, 09:31:32 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #704 on: June 02, 2020, 09:35:55 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

I'm only asking what reforms you think would attract more minority cops. bolded above. 

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #705 on: June 02, 2020, 09:39:53 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

My "exactly" was more about the other points.  I don't know the salary of a cop nationwide so I'll go with your numbers but I do know it tends to be lower in the cities where it needs to be higher (KCMO/KCK is what I know specifically).  So if the salary is so great, why aren't we getting more people who want to make changes within the PD to become cops? 

No doubt reforms are needed.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #706 on: June 02, 2020, 09:41:36 PM »




There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.

And why is that? Because they don't care if they get shitty people. If they cared about getting good people, they'd pay more and try to make it safer

Who is "they"?  How much of the public bemoan any crime that "we need MORE cops".

In this case "they" are the people in charge of hiring cops.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #707 on: June 02, 2020, 09:45:07 PM »




There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.

And why is that? Because they don't care if they get shitty people. If they cared about getting good people, they'd pay more and try to make it safer

Who is "they"?  How much of the public bemoan any crime that "we need MORE cops".

In this case "they" are the people in charge of hiring cops.

So the cities controlling the budget and chief (KCMO excluded)?  Sure.  Again the public just keeps asking for more cops.  I've said for years thats not the answer but the general public thinks it is.  The poulation of quality citizens wanting to be a cop doesn't increase, hence we hire power hungry people at a wage not equal to the risk/hate. 

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #708 on: June 02, 2020, 09:46:07 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

You might be right about what all I would include in "living wage," but where are your statistics coming from? I actually looked up the average and starting salaries for cops in Dallas before I posted, and those numbers were lower than yours.

Anyway, I agree that reforms are needed. I have traveled extensively and briefly lived abroad. Part of what makes policing in the U.S. different from almost everywhere else is that Americans are armed to the teeth. That's the bugaboo in all of this.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #709 on: June 02, 2020, 09:51:24 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

Given their qualifications and alternatives they get paid well in large metros in most areas of the country which speaks to how bad the job apparently is re: the high turnover. 

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #711 on: June 02, 2020, 09:59:57 PM »
It's barely a living wage (at least starting out).

depends completely on the jurisdiction.  there are lots of places were police are well paid blue collar jobs. 
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #712 on: June 02, 2020, 10:00:54 PM »
Peter Parker knows the best times to appear.
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

https://blockstream.info/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #713 on: June 02, 2020, 10:01:15 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

I'm only asking what reforms you think would attract more minority cops. bolded above.

On the short term, there isn't much that will make any significant impact. The greatest reason that there aren't minority cops is goes all the way back before the country was ever founded, I'd hope you know that. We live in highly segregated areas but have never been allowed to police in the same way. You're not going to overturn hundreds of years of distrust in a matter of months or even years. My mother's generation had to be subjected to cops being the front line in the government pushing back in a battle for civil rights. It's obviously going to be a long and hard transformation, but it has to start somewhere. Here's what I'd do.

1. I would only hire officers that live in my city, especially in metro areas.
2. Police need hiring quotas to assist in representation
3. I balk at busting police unions, but they have been a strong barrier to community policing and representation in police departments.
4. Police departments should invest in education in our cities and not just by putting substations in black neighborhoods. Invest in scholarships, have more programs in small colleges, and not just some community colleges.
5. Partner with secondary schools to have plain clothed officers assist in educational programs. There is a national organization called Jobs for America's Graduates who would be perfect to partner with.
6. Have a presence, plain clothed, no guns, in community events. Host some of these events, block parties, farmers markets in food deserts.

There is literally a eff ton of things they can do if they actually wanted to do so.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #714 on: June 02, 2020, 10:02:18 PM »
It's barely a living wage (at least starting out).

depends completely on the jurisdiction.  there are lots of places were police are well paid blue collar jobs.

It's not nearly enough given their task.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #715 on: June 02, 2020, 10:04:57 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

You might be right about what all I would include in "living wage," but where are your statistics coming from? I actually looked up the average and starting salaries for cops in Dallas before I posted, and those numbers were lower than yours.

Anyway, I agree that reforms are needed. I have traveled extensively and briefly lived abroad. Part of what makes policing in the U.S. different from almost everywhere else is that Americans are armed to the teeth. That's the bugaboo in all of this.

I'd assume police salaries are public record, everywhere. Those sites like glassdoor who guess salaries tend to guess low across all industries.

http://db.desmoinesregister.com/des-moines-city-salaries/page=1&ordercol=col13&orderdir=asc&searchterms%5Bcol2%7Ccol4%5D=&searchterms%5Bcol14%5D=2017&searchterms%5Bcol5%5D=&searchterms%5Bcol6%5D=

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #716 on: June 02, 2020, 10:06:03 PM »
It's not nearly enough given their task.

people say that about every job.  police officer isn't the most dangerous or (anywhere close to) the hardest job around.  not that salary correlates to either.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #717 on: June 02, 2020, 10:07:21 PM »






There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.

And why is that? Because they don't care if they get shitty people. If they cared about getting good people, they'd pay more and try to make it safer

Who is "they"?  How much of the public bemoan any crime that "we need MORE cops".

In this case "they" are the people in charge of hiring cops.

So the cities controlling the budget and chief (KCMO excluded)?  Sure.  Again the public just keeps asking for more cops.  I've said for years thats not the answer but the general public thinks it is.  The poulation of quality citizens wanting to be a cop doesn't increase, hence we hire power hungry people at a wage not equal to the risk/hate.

Yeah, in general the public wants lots of low paid goons as well. Or at least they have up to now.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #718 on: June 02, 2020, 10:07:35 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

I'm only asking what reforms you think would attract more minority cops. bolded above.

On the short term, there isn't much that will make any significant impact. The greatest reason that there aren't minority cops is goes all the way back before the country was ever founded, I'd hope you know that. We live in highly segregated areas but have never been allowed to police in the same way. You're not going to overturn hundreds of years of distrust in a matter of months or even years. My mother's generation had to be subjected to cops being the front line in the government pushing back in a battle for civil rights. It's obviously going to be a long and hard transformation, but it has to start somewhere. Here's what I'd do.

1. I would only hire officers that live in my city, especially in metro areas.
2. Police need hiring quotas to assist in representation
3. I balk at busting police unions, but they have been a strong barrier to community policing and representation in police departments.
4. Police departments should invest in education in our cities and not just by putting substations in black neighborhoods. Invest in scholarships, have more programs in small colleges, and not just some community colleges.
5. Partner with secondary schools to have plain clothed officers assist in educational programs. There is a national organization called Jobs for America's Graduates who would be perfect to partner with.
6. Have a presence, plain clothed, no guns, in community events. Host some of these events, block parties, farmers markets in food deserts.

There is literally a eff ton of things they can do if they actually wanted to do so.

I like all of these.  I'd add in a lot more training for PD in how to disarm violent conventation and self-control especially given in the short term we're not going to be able to flip over PD personnel overnight.

Like you said, these are all long term things and we've been dealing with this for way longer than we've been alive so what reforms are we going to make that are going to make more minorities want to be cops or am I just dealing with cops are fucktards till I'm dead?

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #719 on: June 02, 2020, 10:10:01 PM »
It's not nearly enough given their task.

people say that about every job.  police officer isn't the most dangerous or (anywhere close to) the hardest job around.  not that salary correlates to either.

Hmmm, arm them with guns and tell them to go confront criminals 24x7.  I'm not sure what "most dangerous" job means to you but few sane persons wants to do that.  They either have a huge desire to help the community (few of them) or a raging boner to have power (lot of them) at these paygrades.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #720 on: June 02, 2020, 10:11:47 PM »






There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.

And why is that? Because they don't care if they get shitty people. If they cared about getting good people, they'd pay more and try to make it safer

Who is "they"?  How much of the public bemoan any crime that "we need MORE cops".

In this case "they" are the people in charge of hiring cops.

So the cities controlling the budget and chief (KCMO excluded)?  Sure.  Again the public just keeps asking for more cops.  I've said for years thats not the answer but the general public thinks it is.  The poulation of quality citizens wanting to be a cop doesn't increase, hence we hire power hungry people at a wage not equal to the risk/hate.

Yeah, in general the public wants lots of low paid goons as well. Or at least they have up to now.

agreed.  The general public needs to demand change too.  Max cop per dollar isn't working despite what they've been asking for.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #721 on: June 02, 2020, 10:12:24 PM »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #722 on: June 02, 2020, 10:13:11 PM »
There are open cop jobs now.

unemployment rate is what, 15% currently?  if they can't hire good people now, it's because they're not trying to hire good people.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out), and requires background checks, physical and mental evaluations, and passing the academy. Oh, and you're in potentially dangerous situations every day. And everybody hates you.
Exactly. Pretty ridiculous.

Either the two of you have no idea what cops make or you have no concept of "barely a living wage." The nationwide average salary of a cop is over $60,000. Starting salaries here in Des Moines are $53,000

And everyone hates then because reforms are needed, travel other places, they don't think of the police the same way we do here.

Given their qualifications and alternatives they get paid well in large metros in most areas of the country which speaks to how bad the job apparently is re: the high turnover.

The man said they aren't paid well and that isn't factual. They make enough to be able to hire, if they don't that's pretty easy to fix. I just listed starting salaries in a metropolitan area in one of the lowest cost of living in the country over $50,000. That can easily be fixed everywhere, it isn't like civilians have any thing to do with salaries, they're public employees.

It's barely a living wage (at least starting out).

depends completely on the jurisdiction.  there are lots of places were police are well paid blue collar jobs.

It's not nearly enough given their task.

You both know that they have the ability to make the task decidedly less shitty right? Working in beef packing plants is a crap job, it was much more shitty before Upton Sinclair shamed the industry and the government into fixing it. Making the job better is precisely why reforms are needed.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #723 on: June 02, 2020, 10:14:14 PM »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #724 on: June 02, 2020, 10:17:13 PM »
the idea that we aren't going to be able to hire any new police if we fire some of the current ones is laughably stupid.

Very much so. First of all reforms would absolutely attract more minority cops. There's also no reason police departments shouldn't be competing with the armed forces for their best talent.

What reforms?  Shouldn't anybody who wants to make a change want to jump into the PD 30 years ago to help make change?

I'm guessing/hoping you aren't asking me about some rando beat cop or some rando chief making systematic changes to generations of flawed policing in the entire country. That's either really stupid or asked in bad faith.

I'm only asking what reforms you think would attract more minority cops. bolded above.

On the short term, there isn't much that will make any significant impact. The greatest reason that there aren't minority cops is goes all the way back before the country was ever founded, I'd hope you know that. We live in highly segregated areas but have never been allowed to police in the same way. You're not going to overturn hundreds of years of distrust in a matter of months or even years. My mother's generation had to be subjected to cops being the front line in the government pushing back in a battle for civil rights. It's obviously going to be a long and hard transformation, but it has to start somewhere. Here's what I'd do.

1. I would only hire officers that live in my city, especially in metro areas.
2. Police need hiring quotas to assist in representation
3. I balk at busting police unions, but they have been a strong barrier to community policing and representation in police departments.
4. Police departments should invest in education in our cities and not just by putting substations in black neighborhoods. Invest in scholarships, have more programs in small colleges, and not just some community colleges.
5. Partner with secondary schools to have plain clothed officers assist in educational programs. There is a national organization called Jobs for America's Graduates who would be perfect to partner with.
6. Have a presence, plain clothed, no guns, in community events. Host some of these events, block parties, farmers markets in food deserts.

There is literally a eff ton of things they can do if they actually wanted to do so.

This is a great post, and I agree with everything, although I don't think racial quotas in hiring would be constitutional. Well, actually the current state of the law is that it would definitely not be constitutional if that is an official hiring policy. However, it IS constitutional to accomplish the same thing by not saying that's what you're doing. Go figure.