Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 105457 times)

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Offline 8manpick

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #625 on: June 02, 2020, 01:28:30 PM »
The Ricketts family are garbage in a number of ways
:adios:

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #626 on: June 02, 2020, 01:48:41 PM »
The problem is phrases like "the whole system needs revamped" is such a vague statement that I think wood and rusty are probably imagining two different things.

For me, it's a compass statement. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the details but I know enough to be sure that what we currently have sucks. I cited Camden as a potential model that looks positive but I don't know enough about the situation. I'd defer to experts to determine how best to change.

Also, I encourage anyone interested in learning about our law enforcement system and mass incarceration to read this:

https://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595586431

(really, everyone in the US should read this)

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #627 on: June 02, 2020, 01:54:44 PM »
The department policies to tear gas people is one thing but these individual cops going crazy with rage while in a protest lineup knowing everybody has a cell phone recording everything is quite unbelievable.

Yet another reason I don't think this is the best way to "control" protests.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #628 on: June 02, 2020, 02:04:11 PM »
The cops acting crazy should be very easy to identify and fire. If the cops standing near them refuse to identify them, cities should just replace their entire police force.

Offline kim carnes

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #629 on: June 02, 2020, 02:07:08 PM »
The cops acting crazy should be very easy to identify and fire. If the cops standing near them refuse to identify them, cities should just replace their entire police force.

Ya, union workers are extremely easy to fire lmao

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #630 on: June 02, 2020, 02:09:26 PM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.


Say it louder for the people in the back.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #631 on: June 02, 2020, 02:13:47 PM »
The cops acting crazy should be very easy to identify and fire. If the cops standing near them refuse to identify them, cities should just replace their entire police force.

Yes this is the reasonable answer.  We can't get people to be cops now let's just hire 10,000 new ones.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #632 on: June 02, 2020, 02:16:22 PM »
The cops acting crazy should be very easy to identify and fire. If the cops standing near them refuse to identify them, cities should just replace their entire police force.

Yes this is the reasonable answer.  We can't get people to be cops now let's just hire 10,000 new ones.

Or you know, keep employed the ones who can't handle themselves and get us into this situation in the first place. Maybe with new ones you can IDK, train them to actually be good cops
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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #633 on: June 02, 2020, 02:18:18 PM »
The cops acting crazy should be very easy to identify and fire. If the cops standing near them refuse to identify them, cities should just replace their entire police force.

Yes this is the reasonable answer.  We can't get people to be cops now let's just hire 10,000 new ones.

Or you know, keep employed the ones who can't handle themselves and get us into this situation in the first place. Maybe with new ones you can IDK, train them to actually be good cops

So what by next weekend just rotate them out?

Obviously there are huge issues but fire the entire police force is not a solution.

Offline treysolid

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #634 on: June 02, 2020, 02:20:47 PM »
Kellie Carter Jackson hits this one out of the park.

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2020/06/riots-are-american-way-george-floyd-protests/612466/?utm_source=digg
They’re solid points other than failing to address that the types of violent protests and revolutions held up as exemplars occurred over 200 years ago, with relatively successful nonviolent movements led by MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela since then.

I don’t think we’re wrong to hold the nonviolent movements up as the goal, but I definitely keep coming back to Kap and other athletes peacefully protesting the exact same stuff and being told it wasn’t the right way. We’re reaping what we sewed in that regard.

Some historical context is appropriate:

Mandela - a movement in a country where the oppressed population was also the majority population. Peaceful protests were, by and large, successful.
Ghandi - a movement in a country where the oppressed population was also the majority population. Peaceful protests were successful.
MLK - a movement in our country, where the oppressed population is also the MINORITY population. Peaceful protests ended in MLK getting his wig split.

White america: "Oh, that's a cute little peaceful protest you got going on there...BLAM!!"

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #635 on: June 02, 2020, 02:22:43 PM »
It's crazy how every dumbass cop in america thinks people are coming from out of state to their state to cause problems

https://twitter.com/morenabasteiro/status/1267589169695666176

the richmond police chief did the same thing when he lied about the protesters trying to burn down a house with a baby in it. Like who the eff cares about Richmond, Virginia but residents of Richmond?

This dickwad is the chief  :ROFL: I saw this on tv last night and I thought it was just some rando beat cop, I was laughing at how stupid he sounded.

Offline treysolid

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #636 on: June 02, 2020, 02:34:21 PM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?
I guess because i'm not out there too right now. I fully support the message of the protest. My apologies if I worded it wrongly.

:thumbs: don't let a news van burned by some knuckleheads make you forget that cops are the bad guys here!

I think you should be able to say that about the reverse here too correct?  There are good cops right?.  I'm curious what % of bad cops you think there are?

No, they are two different things. The current police system is "bad" and needs to change, regardless of what percentage of individual cops are "good". The presence of "good cops" does not mean the system of policing is good. I'd also argue that the only true "good cops" are ones that completely want to change the system, which I would guess is a pretty low percentage.

On the flip side, someone setting a van on fire does not mean people protesting the current law enforcement system are wrong.

So to you and Tsolid, this is a hell of a lot more rational than, "eff all cops".  I don't agree that the whole system needs to be revamped.  I'm sure there are plenty of examples out there where the system works just fine and we can copy those examples instead of tearing it all down.

Because you're living a very privileged life. I would encourage you to talk to as many black and brown people as you can and listen to their experiences with law enforcement and the judicial system here in america

Wait what, I am?  No crap.  You on the other hand I'm sure have traveled this great country far and wide and know exactly the trials and tribulations that the "black and brown" people have suffered eh?  gmafb with this painting of the broad brush.  It gets tiresome.  Change will need to happen so I agree with you. I just don't think it needs to be stripped down to it's core and it doesn't have anything to do with how privileged my life is.
What are YOU currently doing to start this 'stripping down' of the system?  Hopefully more than just continuing to pound on your keyboard in this forum?  Not that you haven't done a bang-up job..

You don't think that your privilege creates a color-blindness to how broken our law enforcement and justice system are? You don't see the other half - there's really two different systems in the country. One for white people and one for everyone else. You don't think the whole thing needs to be replaced because you only see the half that applies to you.

As for me...what I'm trying my best to do is to be an ally to my black and brown friends. My best friend of 20+ years is black. I get texts from him..."got pulled over for DWB again today"..."I was walking down the street and some cops stopped me bc I 'fit a description'"...etc. etc.

When was the last time YOU fit a rough ridin' description? I know I never have.

So I try to educate my fellow white people whenever I hear them saying ignorant crap, bc that's how I can do my part.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #637 on: June 02, 2020, 02:49:30 PM »
A nationwide law addressing how cops are trained in human relations and non violent conflict resolution, required equipment (cameras), incident resolution outside of their own department, funded, less military ewuipment, paid a good salary so it becomes a diserable job be a huge step. Breaking down the FOP somehow would be a real game changer.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #638 on: June 02, 2020, 03:42:22 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts

Offline Spracne

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #639 on: June 02, 2020, 03:44:14 PM »
I think I'll pass on the getting rid of capitalism thing. Dorks (both of you).

Offline DQ12

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #640 on: June 02, 2020, 03:50:33 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts
That guy skips a lot of steps.  Its entire premise is the dubious assumption that the existence of poor people is something unique to capitalism.  Which leads to crime which leads to excessive policing.

Did I miss the study that says communist countries don't have crime?


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Offline Institutional Control

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #641 on: June 02, 2020, 03:51:00 PM »
I think I'll pass on the getting rid of capitalism thing. Dorks (both of you).

Open your mind, Spracs. Tiananmen Square protests only lasted 2 days.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #642 on: June 02, 2020, 03:54:27 PM »
The cops acting crazy should be very easy to identify and fire. If the cops standing near them refuse to identify them, cities should just replace their entire police force.

Yes this is the reasonable answer.  We can't get people to be cops now let's just hire 10,000 new ones.

Or you know, keep employed the ones who can't handle themselves and get us into this situation in the first place. Maybe with new ones you can IDK, train them to actually be good cops

So what by next weekend just rotate them out?

Obviously there are huge issues but fire the entire police force is not a solution.

I don't think I said you had to fire all of them, but you sure as crap better start sometime. Or it'll never happen. I also see quite the 1:1 correlation between the police being there and an escalation of violence. There are a lot of cases already where you see a video of a cop unable to handle this job, you're done. It's that simple. That isn't all of them.
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #643 on: June 02, 2020, 03:57:02 PM »
A nationwide law addressing how cops are trained in human relations and non violent conflict resolution, required equipment (cameras), incident resolution outside of their own department, funded, less military ewuipment, paid a good salary so it becomes a diserable job be a huge step. Breaking down the FOP somehow would be a real game changer.

I would start with the prompt of "what would policing look like if cops didn't have guns?" and take it from there. (cops shouldn't have guns)

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #644 on: June 02, 2020, 03:58:51 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts

I don't think his issue is capitalism but America's bastardized version of capitalism. In that same vain, I don't think the places in Europe that people slap a socialism label on are actually socialist. I don't know the guy at all, but it's hard for me to believe he's actually a communist. Does he have the receipts, if you will, to show that he believes everything belongs to everyone?

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #645 on: June 02, 2020, 04:02:02 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts
That guy skips a lot of steps.  Its entire premise is the dubious assumption that the existence of poor people is something unique to capitalism.  Which leads to crime which leads to excessive policing.

Did I miss the study that says communist countries don't have crime?

He would probably argue that communism has never been done right. I personally think he's an idealist with no real plan.

Regardless, I think it's interesting to think of crime and poverty from a perspective of "capitalism needs poor people to work" and how you could address it without going pulling a full Mao.

Offline DQ12

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #646 on: June 02, 2020, 04:05:48 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts
That guy skips a lot of steps.  Its entire premise is the dubious assumption that the existence of poor people is something unique to capitalism.  Which leads to crime which leads to excessive policing.

Did I miss the study that says communist countries don't have crime?

He would probably argue that communism has never been done right. I personally think he's an idealist with no real plan.

Regardless, I think it's interesting to think of crime and poverty from a perspective of "capitalism needs poor people to work" and how you could address it without going pulling a full Mao.
Of course he would -- it's the classic "no true Scottsman" approach to any evidence suggesting that "communism" has been tried multiple times and the results haven't been great (to put it lightly).  And certainly haven't eradicated the destitution and crime -- two things that have existed in every society ever.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #647 on: June 02, 2020, 04:09:53 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts

I don't think his issue is capitalism but America's bastardized version of capitalism. In that same vain, I don't think the places in Europe that people slap a socialism label on are actually socialist. I don't know the guy at all, but it's hard for me to believe he's actually a communist. Does he have the receipts, if you will, to show that he believes everything belongs to everyone?

I'm surprised you don't know Boots. I don't think the label matters much, but here's a quick interview clip.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/sorry-to-bother-you-boots-riley-interview



Quote
You’ve been outspoken in all of your interviews that you are a communist. When Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! referred to you as an “anticapitalist,” you responded, “I’m a communist.” What do you mean when you say you’re a communist, and how is that different from your garden-variety anticapitalist?

In actuality, it’s not. Most people that are seriously calling themselves anticapitalist are usually doing that as some version of anarchist, or something like that. I feel like a lot of the anarchists that would call themselves anticapitalist also might call themselves anarcho-socialist and anarcho-syndicalist. When you talk about what they’re actually saying, the kind of world they want to make [is a communist world].

What is that world, though?

That world, how I’ve come to describe it, is one where the people democratically control the wealth that they create with their labor. What does that mean? Does that mean democracy like you vote on things? Are there meetings? Those are things that will be figured out along the way.

I say communist because that’s really what all those folks are talking about. It’s really a result of anticommunism that people sometimes call themselves anarchists. A lot of people will hear this and be like, “That’s not true.” But it’s a way to say, “I’m not part of those mistakes that happened before.” In reality, we all are part of those mistakes that happened before.

Whether you call yourself a child of that legacy or not, you are. We have to look at those things. So that is why I say “communist,” because the world that even anarchists are saying they want to create is a communist world.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #648 on: June 02, 2020, 04:16:29 PM »
Of course he would -- it's the classic "no true Scottsman" approach to any evidence suggesting that "communism" has been tried multiple times and the results haven't been great (to put it lightly).  And certainly haven't eradicated the destitution and crime -- two things that have existed in every society ever.

I get it, but I don't think you need to find an example of a communist country that has completely eliminated crime for his point to have some validity. How do our incarceration and crime rates compare to the rest of the world? What drives that?

Offline kim carnes

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #649 on: June 02, 2020, 04:26:58 PM »
here's a different perspective from Boots Riley who is a full-on true proud communist and is pretty extreme even for me (thread):

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1266851333438500865

I still enjoy reading his thoughts

It’s becoming clear that a lot of non-black people who are upset about their station in life are trying to exploit this event for their own selfish reasons and it’s fuckn pathetic