Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 109306 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #576 on: June 02, 2020, 08:58:14 AM »
KC is at least letting them March the streets which is what they said they wanted and I think it's helping.

I still don't understand a line of cops 8 feet from the perimeter. Fall back and let people protest. Being in their face with riot gear on makes it worse.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #577 on: June 02, 2020, 08:59:51 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #578 on: June 02, 2020, 09:02:45 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

Obviously. It's a problem with any protest. People see an opportunity to incite violence and mayhem.

Focus on the message and listen not dismiss it due to those outliers

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #579 on: June 02, 2020, 09:03:51 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #580 on: June 02, 2020, 09:23:34 AM »
KC is at least letting them March the streets which is what they said they wanted and I think it's helping.

I still don't understand a line of cops 8 feet from the perimeter. Fall back and let people protest. Being in their face with riot gear on makes it worse.

Exactly, and why are they expecting a riot in the first place? They didn't show up like that at the stupid capitol house protests over reopening cause i can't get my hair cut, why here and why now? Oh wait we know the reason why.

Regardless, just hang out a few streets over, or just not look like you are spoiling for a fight. Literally showing up like they are makes the situation worse and you can see it time and again during all of this. It's like the stanford prison experiment happening in the streets again and again.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #581 on: June 02, 2020, 09:28:31 AM »
KC is at least letting them March the streets which is what they said they wanted and I think it's helping.

I still don't understand a line of cops 8 feet from the perimeter. Fall back and let people protest. Being in their face with riot gear on makes it worse.

Exactly, and why are they expecting a riot in the first place? They didn't show up like that at the stupid capitol house protests over reopening cause i can't get my hair cut, why here and why now? Oh wait we know the reason why.

Regardless, just hang out a few streets over, or just not look like you are spoiling for a fight. Literally showing up like they are makes the situation worse and you can see it time and again during all of this. It's like the stanford prison experiment happening in the streets again and again.

yep. The cops dress up in riot gear and throw tear gas because they want it to be violent

Quote
But just because there’s no data about protests that can be easily compared in a chart doesn’t mean we’re bereft of information, said Pat Gillham, a professor of sociology at Western Washington University. There’s 50 years of research on violence at protests, dating back to the three federal commissions formed between 1967 and 1970. All three concluded that when police escalate force — using weapons, tear gas, mass arrests and other tools to make protesters do what the police want — those efforts can often go wrong, creating the very violence that force was meant to prevent. For example, the Kerner Commission, which was formed in 1967 to specifically investigate urban riots, found that police action was pivotal in starting half of the 24 riots the commission studied in detail. It recommended that police eliminate “abrasive policing tactics” and that cities establish fair ways to address complaints against police.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/de-escalation-keeps-protesters-and-police-safer-heres-why-departments-respond-with-force-anyway/

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #582 on: June 02, 2020, 09:33:05 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?
I guess because i'm not out there too right now. I fully support the message of the protest. My apologies if I worded it wrongly.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #583 on: June 02, 2020, 09:35:22 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?
I guess because i'm not out there too right now. I fully support the message of the protest. My apologies if I worded it wrongly.

:thumbs: don't let a news van burned by some knuckleheads make you forget that cops are the bad guys here!


Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #584 on: June 02, 2020, 09:37:24 AM »
It's crazy how every dumbass cop in america thinks people are coming from out of state to their state to cause problems

https://twitter.com/morenabasteiro/status/1267589169695666176

the richmond police chief did the same thing when he lied about the protesters trying to burn down a house with a baby in it. Like who the eff cares about Richmond, Virginia but residents of Richmond?

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #585 on: June 02, 2020, 09:40:48 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?
I guess because i'm not out there too right now. I fully support the message of the protest. My apologies if I worded it wrongly.

:thumbs: don't let a news van burned by some knuckleheads make you forget that cops are the bad guys here!
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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #586 on: June 02, 2020, 09:44:09 AM »
It's crazy how every dumbass cop in america thinks people are coming from out of state to their state to cause problems

https://twitter.com/morenabasteiro/status/1267589169695666176

the richmond police chief did the same thing when he lied about the protesters trying to burn down a house with a baby in it. Like who the eff cares about Richmond, Virginia but residents of Richmond?

Is there a state without a protest? Why travel when you have one in your own backyard?

If anybody it's traveling it's those trying to incite violence that I'm guessing it's about a 50/50 split in which side of the actual issue those people are on.


Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #587 on: June 02, 2020, 09:48:23 AM »
It's crazy how every dumbass cop in america thinks people are coming from out of state to their state to cause problems

https://twitter.com/morenabasteiro/status/1267589169695666176

the richmond police chief did the same thing when he lied about the protesters trying to burn down a house with a baby in it. Like who the eff cares about Richmond, Virginia but residents of Richmond?

Is there a state without a protest? Why travel when you have one in your own backyard?

If anybody it's traveling it's those trying to incite violence that I'm guessing it's about a 50/50 split in which side of the actual issue those people are on.



eh I think it's pretty common for organizers to travel to major protests to help organize and not incite violence. But right now I'm not sure anyone's traveled anywhere but Minneapolis because it started there first. Everyone else has a protest close to home.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #588 on: June 02, 2020, 09:48:52 AM »
It's crazy how every dumbass cop in america thinks people are coming from out of state to their state to cause problems

https://twitter.com/morenabasteiro/status/1267589169695666176

the richmond police chief did the same thing when he lied about the protesters trying to burn down a house with a baby in it. Like who the eff cares about Richmond, Virginia but residents of Richmond?

Is there a state without a protest? Why travel when you have one in your own backyard?

If anybody it's traveling it's those trying to incite violence that I'm guessing it's about a 50/50 split in which side of the actual issue those people are on.
I know some legit activists traveled to Minneapolis, given that its the epicenter, but other than that or DC it doesn't make much sense
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Offline Phil Titola

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #589 on: June 02, 2020, 09:49:52 AM »
It's crazy how every dumbass cop in america thinks people are coming from out of state to their state to cause problems

https://twitter.com/morenabasteiro/status/1267589169695666176

the richmond police chief did the same thing when he lied about the protesters trying to burn down a house with a baby in it. Like who the eff cares about Richmond, Virginia but residents of Richmond?

Is there a state without a protest? Why travel when you have one in your own backyard?

If anybody it's traveling it's those trying to incite violence that I'm guessing it's about a 50/50 split in which side of the actual issue those people are on.



eh I think it's pretty common for organizers to travel to major protests to help organize and not incite violence. But right now I'm not sure anyone's traveled anywhere but Minneapolis because it started there first. Everyone else has a protest close to home.

Isn't that what I said?

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #590 on: June 02, 2020, 09:51:51 AM »
If anybody it's traveling it's those trying to incite violence that I'm guessing it's about a 50/50 split in which side of the actual issue those people are on.



eh I think it's pretty common for organizers to travel to major protests to help organize and not incite violence. But right now I'm not sure anyone's traveled anywhere but Minneapolis because it started there first. Everyone else has a protest close to home.

Isn't that what I said?

no you said "if anybody it's traveling it's those trying to incite violence"

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #591 on: June 02, 2020, 10:00:13 AM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.

If nothing else, don't do bad things because bad things lead to dangerous riots.  You can argue about the legitimacy of dangerous riots, but it's clear that that's a possible effect.  Whether or not the resulting violent riots are justified is pretty arbitrary.


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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #592 on: June 02, 2020, 10:08:11 AM »
Turns out apathy was right, firing crap into unarmed people's faces is protocol

https://twitter.com/jpegjoshua/status/1267661731062571009
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #593 on: June 02, 2020, 10:08:39 AM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.

If nothing else, don't do bad things because bad things lead to dangerous riots.  You can argue about the legitimacy of dangerous riots, but it's clear that that's a possible effect.  Whether or not the resulting violent riots are justified is pretty arbitrary.

The cops who would do the bad things are the exact same cops who really want a riot.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #594 on: June 02, 2020, 10:20:11 AM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.

If nothing else, don't do bad things because bad things lead to dangerous riots.  You can argue about the legitimacy of dangerous riots, but it's clear that that's a possible effect.  Whether or not the resulting violent riots are justified is pretty arbitrary.

The cops who would do the bad things are the exact same cops who really want a riot.
Even if that were true (which who knows), the incentives still exist at the societal level.  As some one who was finger wagging the violent protests over the last week (while still acknowledging that police action giving rise to it was reprehensible), my view on it has kind of changed, which is a credit to the protests, peaceful or otherwise.  You have to kind of divorce yourself from moral judgments on violent responses (which I do think are wrong) and view them as an objective effect of bad policing.

It isn't really enough to say burning a media van (for example) is bad.  Of course it's bad.  But it's also apparent that a burned police van in KC is one possible result of bad policing (locally and elsewhere).  So let's do our best not to have bad policing -- not only because it will result in fewer lives lost as a proximate cause of the bad/unjust policing, but also because it will result in less violence/lives lost as a possible response.

When police do bad things, more bad things (and maybe even worse things) happen.  So it becomes very important for police not to do bad things. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #595 on: June 02, 2020, 10:25:09 AM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.

If nothing else, don't do bad things because bad things lead to dangerous riots.  You can argue about the legitimacy of dangerous riots, but it's clear that that's a possible effect.  Whether or not the resulting violent riots are justified is pretty arbitrary.

The cops who would do the bad things are the exact same cops who really want a riot.
Even if that were true (which who knows), the incentives still exist at the societal level.  As some one who was finger wagging the violent protests over the last week (while still acknowledging that police action giving rise to it was reprehensible), my view on it has kind of changed, which is a credit to the protests, peaceful or otherwise.  You have to kind of divorce yourself from moral judgments on violent responses (which I do think are wrong) and view them as an objective effect of bad policing.

It isn't really enough to say burning a media van (for example) is bad.  Of course it's bad.  But it's also apparent that a burned police van in KC is one possible result of bad policing (locally and elsewhere).  So let's do our best not to have bad policing -- not only because it will result in fewer lives lost as a proximate cause of the bad/unjust policing, but also because it will result in less violence/lives lost as a possible response.

When police do bad things, more bad things (and maybe even worse things) happen.  So it becomes very important for police not to do bad things.

Holding police accountable for doing bad things would probably be a greater incentive for police not to do bad things.

Offline I_have_purplewood

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #596 on: June 02, 2020, 10:25:19 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?
I guess because i'm not out there too right now. I fully support the message of the protest. My apologies if I worded it wrongly.

:thumbs: don't let a news van burned by some knuckleheads make you forget that cops are the bad guys here!

I think you should be able to say that about the reverse here too correct?  There are good cops right?.  I'm curious what % of bad cops you think there are?
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #597 on: June 02, 2020, 10:28:00 AM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.

If nothing else, don't do bad things because bad things lead to dangerous riots.  You can argue about the legitimacy of dangerous riots, but it's clear that that's a possible effect.  Whether or not the resulting violent riots are justified is pretty arbitrary.

The cops who would do the bad things are the exact same cops who really want a riot.
Even if that were true (which who knows), the incentives still exist at the societal level.  As some one who was finger wagging the violent protests over the last week (while still acknowledging that police action giving rise to it was reprehensible), my view on it has kind of changed, which is a credit to the protests, peaceful or otherwise.  You have to kind of divorce yourself from moral judgments on violent responses (which I do think are wrong) and view them as an objective effect of bad policing.

It isn't really enough to say burning a media van (for example) is bad.  Of course it's bad.  But it's also apparent that a burned police van in KC is one possible result of bad policing (locally and elsewhere).  So let's do our best not to have bad policing -- not only because it will result in fewer lives lost as a proximate cause of the bad/unjust policing, but also because it will result in less violence/lives lost as a possible response.

When police do bad things, more bad things (and maybe even worse things) happen.  So it becomes very important for police not to do bad things.

Holding police accountable for doing bad things would probably be a greater incentive for police not to do bad things.
Ok, good idea let's make sure that happens every time so we don't have nationwide riots.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #598 on: June 02, 2020, 10:32:52 AM »
I don't think setting news vehicles on fire is helping their cause, though.

why isn't it your cause too?
I guess because i'm not out there too right now. I fully support the message of the protest. My apologies if I worded it wrongly.

:thumbs: don't let a news van burned by some knuckleheads make you forget that cops are the bad guys here!

I think you should be able to say that about the reverse here too correct?  There are good cops right?.  I'm curious what % of bad cops you think there are?

If you consider the 3 cops who just stood around and let the other cop choke the guy out to be bad cops, then I'd say the % of good cops is pretty low.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #599 on: June 02, 2020, 10:46:30 AM »
One thing I've drawn from this that is a bit of a new revelation for me and I think a beneficial outcome of some of even the uglier scenes of violence in the protests is this: Police doing unjust things (and especially using violence unjustly) creates a public safety concern beyond their own limited bad act.  That's a pretty constructive disincentive for police to keep in mind moving forward.

If nothing else, don't do bad things because bad things lead to dangerous riots.  You can argue about the legitimacy of dangerous riots, but it's clear that that's a possible effect.  Whether or not the resulting violent riots are justified is pretty arbitrary.

The cops who would do the bad things are the exact same cops who really want a riot.
Even if that were true (which who knows), the incentives still exist at the societal level.  As some one who was finger wagging the violent protests over the last week (while still acknowledging that police action giving rise to it was reprehensible), my view on it has kind of changed, which is a credit to the protests, peaceful or otherwise.  You have to kind of divorce yourself from moral judgments on violent responses (which I do think are wrong) and view them as an objective effect of bad policing.

It isn't really enough to say burning a media van (for example) is bad.  Of course it's bad.  But it's also apparent that a burned police van in KC is one possible result of bad policing (locally and elsewhere).  So let's do our best not to have bad policing -- not only because it will result in fewer lives lost as a proximate cause of the bad/unjust policing, but also because it will result in less violence/lives lost as a possible response.

When police do bad things, more bad things (and maybe even worse things) happen.  So it becomes very important for police not to do bad things.

Holding police accountable for doing bad things would probably be a greater incentive for police not to do bad things.
Ok, good idea let's make sure that happens every time so we don't have nationwide riots.

Its going to need to go deeper than that - the "How" part of how they accomplish their jobs is driven by the "What" as a society we are asking them to do:

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/where-did-policing-go-wrong

Quote
Why, he asked, do we even have police? After all, the history of policing in our country, especially as it pertains to minority neighborhoods, has always rested upon dubious justifications. The early American police forces evolved out of slave patrols in the South, and “progressed” to enforce the Black Codes from the Civil War period and beyond, on to Jim Crow through the late sixties if not longer.

In an explicit way, American policing has almost always been concerned on some level with enforcing racial separatism. Because Jim Crow police were upholding a way of life, the actual laws they were given to enforce were deliberately vague, designed to be easily used as pretexts for controlling the movements of black people.
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But the Garner story ended up graphically revealing the way modern “Broken Windows” policing had evolved to fit the tactics of those centuries of racial enforcement.
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The new strategies rely upon extremely high numbers of contacts between police and subject populations, who are stopped for every conceivable minor offense – public intoxication, public urination, riding bicycles the wrong way down a sidewalk, refusing to obey police orders, jumping subway turnstiles, and, in Garner’s case, selling loose cigarettes.
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“Broken Windows” revolutionized policing, changing it from a business of fighting crime to doing what Kelling described as “order maintenance.”
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Once again, police were charged with enforcing not rules but a way of life, and were asked again to view the law as more of a tool than an end in itself.
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Such aggressive, military-style policing would be not be tolerated by voters if it were taking place everywhere. It’s popular, and continues to be embraced by politicians in both parties, because it’s only happening in “those” neighborhoods (or, as Mike Bloomberg once put it, “where the crime is”).
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Basically we have two systems of enforcement in America, a minimalist one for people with political clout, and an intrusive one for everyone else. In the same way our army in Vietnam got in trouble when it started searching for ways to quantify the success of its occupation, choosing sociopathic metrics like “body counts” and “truck kills,” modern big-city policing has been corrupted by its lust for summonses, stops, and arrests. It’s made monsters where none needed to exist.
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The incentives in this system are wrong in every direction.
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The current protests are likely to inspire politicians to think the other way, but it’s probably time to reconsider what we’re trying to accomplish with this kind of policing. In upscale white America drug use is effectively decriminalized, and Terry stops, strip searches, and “quality of life” arrests are unknowns. The country isn’t going to heal as long as everyone else gets a knee in the neck.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 10:49:43 AM by Woogy »