Author Topic: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser  (Read 28718 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #200 on: December 01, 2021, 08:15:50 PM »
One thing for sure is the offense is not over performing their talent level while the defense is.

Is that really for sure?

pace adjusted defensive stats had us as the second best defense this year in the big 12

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/opponent-points-per-play
Defense was really good! Offense was fifth in the same metric? Not too bad considering who got a ton of snaps at QB

if sky remains even halfway viable for Texas, we win by two scores and Mess keeps his job.  It's a high stakes job so its hard to feel too bad for Mess but his overall body of work wasn't that bad.

I'm not so sure about that. That game really needed us to run the ball roughly a million times. I'm furious about those three play calls at the end of the game, I'm more angry that we didn't run nearly as much as we should have. I thought playing Will should have been an advantage but we didn't do that. I can't imagine how many passes he would have had Skylar throwing. I think he completely bottles the game plan, even worse, with Skylar.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #201 on: December 01, 2021, 08:25:09 PM »
He’s not going to do it is he? Just reading that they were not only just guys that happened to be on the same staff at NDSU, but they were even little league teammates  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

They will let him retire with some kind of dignity i think.  He won’t be on the staff next year though.

He was out recruiting yesterday, he's coming back.
https://twitter.com/PHSPantherFB/status/1465821933296041989

Offline Purple Derpathy

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #202 on: December 01, 2021, 09:05:59 PM »
Boy we are going to suck ass next year with Mess and Kleigoober. Poor Deuce......


Offline PurpleOil

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #203 on: December 02, 2021, 08:45:02 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

What is the case for keeping him? How would we NOT improve by replacing him with a better coordinator?

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #204 on: December 02, 2021, 08:47:39 AM »
What is the case for keeping him? How would we NOT improve by replacing him with a better coordinator?

Of course we improve by replacing him with a better coordinator.  The argument is that it's not a given that we get a better coordinator

Offline michigancat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #205 on: December 02, 2021, 08:51:39 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

I don't think our offensive talent was very good outside of Deuce.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #206 on: December 02, 2021, 09:03:26 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

I don't think our offensive talent was very good outside of Deuce.

If that's the case then we should've given him the ball more against Baylor when he was averaging 10+ yards a touch

Offline michigancat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #207 on: December 02, 2021, 09:06:32 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

I don't think our offensive talent was very good outside of Deuce.

If that's the case then we should've given him the ball more against Baylor when he was averaging 10+ yards a touch

yeah probably

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #208 on: December 02, 2021, 09:09:38 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

I don't think our offensive talent was very good outside of Deuce.

If that's the case then we should've given him the ball more against Baylor when he was averaging 10+ yards a touch

That was the problem the last two games and I'll say it again, it's my issue with Mess. He either isn't smart enough to see what works or he's constantly over thinking himself. Maybe when Klieman said he's going to get involved in the game planning that he means exactly this. He's seeing that we aren't using our best player enough when everything else doesn't seem to be working.

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #209 on: December 02, 2021, 09:14:43 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

I don't think our offensive talent was very good outside of Deuce.

If that's the case then we should've given him the ball more against Baylor when he was averaging 10+ yards a touch

That was the problem the last two games and I'll say it again, it's my issue with Mess. He either isn't smart enough to see what works or he's constantly over thinking himself. Maybe when Klieman said he's going to get involved in the game planning that he means exactly this. He's seeing that we aren't using our best player enough when everything else doesn't seem to be working.
We also have a "pitch count" for deuce I'm sure.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #210 on: December 02, 2021, 09:17:25 AM »
I want CK to do so well that a school throws stupid money at him to try and poach him. Do you think anyone's going to try and steal a marginally better than .500 coach who keeps his besties on his staff with him wherever he goes?

I think it's pretty naive to think not replacing the OC is all that's preventing CK from achieving significantly more than he is now.

Let's ask ourselves this question a different way. We had a defense that was good enough to win the conference this year. There were only 3 teams able to score more than 30 points on us all year, and all 3 of those teams spent time in the top 10 rankings. Most opponents struggled just to make it to 20, including current #9 Baylor. Even a marginally above average offense in the Big XII should be able to score 4 touchdowns and a field goal.  Instead, in 12 games, we limped along and constantly struggled to score points in the 2nd half of games despite having a pretty decent 6th year QB and arguably one of the better RBs in program history. Messingham has had questionable play calling follow him his entire career, so the issues are not just isolated to our program, and this season it was on full display in several of our loses.

I don't think our offensive talent was very good outside of Deuce.

If that's the case then we should've given him the ball more against Baylor when he was averaging 10+ yards a touch

That was the problem the last two games and I'll say it again, it's my issue with Mess. He either isn't smart enough to see what works or he's constantly over thinking himself. Maybe when Klieman said he's going to get involved in the game planning that he means exactly this. He's seeing that we aren't using our best player enough when everything else doesn't seem to be working.
We also have a "pitch count" for deuce I'm sure.

which is a good idea IMO. I don't think he was really underused at Texas but probably was against Baylor.

Online Cire

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #211 on: December 02, 2021, 09:30:39 AM »
I think the extreme slow pace is the "pitch count so to speak"

I bet if you look at carson wentz easton stick offense, they are probably average/below average pace but that's just spitballing.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #212 on: December 02, 2021, 09:37:05 AM »
sounds like the pitch count has been around 25 touches/game

Quote
Despite Vaughn's diminutive stature -- he's 5-foot-6, 173 pounds -- Klieman said recently that he might give the running back as many as 25 touches a game this season.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/stanford-can-expect-big-doses-of-deuce-vaughn-against-kansas-st/

Offline PurpleOil

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #213 on: December 02, 2021, 11:52:42 AM »
What is the case for keeping him? How would we NOT improve by replacing him with a better coordinator?

Of course we improve by replacing him with a better coordinator.  The argument is that it's not a given that we get a better coordinator

This is the type of thinking you employ when you've got a Pelini or Gundy winning 10 games a year and you're questioning whether you should push for a coaching change.

It's not what you worry about when you're limping into a 7-5 regular season and needing to inject life and energy into your program.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #214 on: December 02, 2021, 02:32:17 PM »
What is the case for keeping him? How would we NOT improve by replacing him with a better coordinator?

Of course we improve by replacing him with a better coordinator.  The argument is that it's not a given that we get a better coordinator

This is the type of thinking you employ when you've got a Pelini or Gundy winning 10 games a year and you're questioning whether you should push for a coaching change.

It's not what you worry about when you're limping into a 7-5 regular season and needing to inject life and energy into your program.

The way you phrased your question was that a better coordinator was a given.  I'm all for making a change but there is still risk worth acknowledging. 

Offline stunted

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #215 on: December 02, 2021, 02:42:46 PM »
Would another coach in Kleimans shoes fire Messingham in the same circumstances (minus being butt buddies for life)? I think more than 50% would.

Offline PurpleOil

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #216 on: December 02, 2021, 03:28:15 PM »
What is the case for keeping him? How would we NOT improve by replacing him with a better coordinator?

Of course we improve by replacing him with a better coordinator.  The argument is that it's not a given that we get a better coordinator

This is the type of thinking you employ when you've got a Pelini or Gundy winning 10 games a year and you're questioning whether you should push for a coaching change.

It's not what you worry about when you're limping into a 7-5 regular season and needing to inject life and energy into your program.

The way you phrased your question was that a better coordinator was a given.  I'm all for making a change but there is still risk worth acknowledging.

Did you watch the same Texas game the rest of us did? How would a coordinator have called a worse game?

Yes, there is certainly a risk there that things could somehow get even worse, but I think that risk is outweighed by getting rid of the aggravating play calling and frustration of the players/transfers that will be caused by keeping the mess that is Mess.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #217 on: December 02, 2021, 03:31:24 PM »
What is the case for keeping him? How would we NOT improve by replacing him with a better coordinator?

Of course we improve by replacing him with a better coordinator.  The argument is that it's not a given that we get a better coordinator

This is the type of thinking you employ when you've got a Pelini or Gundy winning 10 games a year and you're questioning whether you should push for a coaching change.

It's not what you worry about when you're limping into a 7-5 regular season and needing to inject life and energy into your program.

The way you phrased your question was that a better coordinator was a given.  I'm all for making a change but there is still risk worth acknowledging.

Did you watch the same Texas game the rest of us did? How would a coordinator have called a worse game?

Could have ran Will more and lost fumbles. Could have given Deuce too many carries and got him hurt. could have had an offensive penalty. Could have not set up Will's long run. Like there's a billion scenarios that could have gone worse. :dunno:

Offline muqluk

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #218 on: December 02, 2021, 04:02:02 PM »
Puzzling how, after looking at the last ~10-15 years of Messingham’s resume - and the stats for those teams during his tenures, anyone would bother defending him.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #219 on: December 02, 2021, 04:21:07 PM »
The second half of the UT game was atrocious.  The Baylor and UT games as a whole were poor.  I don't expect us to win the B12 and compete for championships consistently, but I want it to be possible.  Messingham's terrible games lower the ceiling of the team to beneath that threshold.  Messingham fucks up games so bad on occasion that make it nearly impossible for K-State to win.  K-State's margins will usually be too thin to overcome that.

I can say all of that and know that he was actually around the middle of the pack in the B12 in most advanced stats.  He isn't the worst OC over the course of a season but he's pretty close a couple of times a year.  As I've said, I'm all for making a change and we should do it sooner than later before some of the newer staffs start filling roles.

Offline tdaver

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #220 on: December 02, 2021, 05:25:05 PM »
A lot of P5 OCs got crap canned today.

If in fact Klieman is targeting Wells, we'll probably need to wait for the carousel to slow down to see if we can get him. Wells will almost certainly try to get a G5 job.

Yea this is not ideal environment for the Wells to KSU contingent.

I'm confused as to why Steve Addazio hasn't been fired yet, probably coming and there's going to be a lot of G5 openings.

His buyout drops $2MM (from 5 to 3) on Thursday

https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1466454450642501633?s=20

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #221 on: December 02, 2021, 06:07:09 PM »
sounds like the pitch count has been around 25 touches/game

Quote
Despite Vaughn's diminutive stature -- he's 5-foot-6, 173 pounds -- Klieman said recently that he might give the running back as many as 25 touches a game this season.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/stanford-can-expect-big-doses-of-deuce-vaughn-against-kansas-st/

Then he said later in the year, postgame after Nevada, if memory serves me right, that Deuce doesn't have a cap on his carries.

Capping his carries is dumb unless they have noticed a pattern of his production waning after a certain number of carries, which it isn't.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #222 on: December 02, 2021, 06:11:32 PM »
Puzzling how, after looking at the last ~10-15 years of Messingham’s resume - and the stats for those teams during his tenures, anyone would bother defending him.

Chi & Rusty, or anyone else for that matter, aren't defending him, they're just saying that we could do worse, which is a statistical fact. No one is advocating for keeping that dude, everyone knows it could also be significantly better.

Offline Purple Derpathy

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #223 on: December 02, 2021, 06:37:59 PM »
Why settle for second when middle of the pack is available? - Coach Mess

Offline Trim

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Re: Courtney Messingham is a proven loser
« Reply #224 on: December 02, 2021, 09:08:29 PM »
Puzzling how, after looking at the last ~10-15 years of Messingham’s resume - and the stats for those teams during his tenures, anyone would bother defending him.

If true, more puzzling would be that he got hired.