The Thread for Democratic Socialists/AOC watch with 24/7 AOC updates

[kim carnes]

What’s your point kk…

[Kat Kid]

read my post right before that

[kim carnes]

read my post right before that

None of what you’re saying validates bernie’s statement.  And shale producers pay out the ass for every barrel of oil compared to opec members who could open the spigot fairly quickly on their production. 

[Kat Kid]

Bernie said gas prices are high- I agree
Bernie said oil companies had huge profits- I agree
Bernie said this was not due to inflation: I think it is demand-pull issue so mostly disagree
Bernie said the problem is "corporate greed, COLUSION, & profiteering":  I think this is complicated--even the biggest integrated oil majors don't really control things, but we do have the cartel OPEC+ so COLUSION is definitely there and but I did mention that on the margins that oil producers were not interested in trying to compete to bring prices down and instead were happy returning profits to shareholders

[kim carnes]

He didn’t say anything about opec, he suggested oil companies were responsible.  The far left has been blaming corporate greed for inflation in all sectors of the economy.

[sonofdaxjones]

Bernie knows that there's a vast segment of #blueanon who will believe that and continuously parrot that until even more #blueanon  begin to believe that it's corporations driving inflation.

[Kat Kid]

He didn’t say anything about opec, he suggested oil companies were responsible.  The far left has been blaming corporate greed for inflation in all sectors of the economy.

I think any blanket statement like that would be wrong and I already have spent a lot of time pointing out where I part ways with the Bernie tweet but Corporate profits are at record highs a lot of places passed on costs and raised prices and to expand margins. It is just as true that some companies are price takers, some ate costs to try and keep market share, but a lot of companies came out ahead with inflated input costs because they were an excuse to raise prices.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Bernie said gas prices are high- I agree
Bernie said oil companies had huge profits- I agree
Bernie said this was not due to inflation: I think it is demand-pull issue so mostly disagree
Bernie said the problem is "corporate greed, COLUSION, & profiteering":  I think this is complicated--even the biggest integrated oil majors don't really control things, but we do have the cartel OPEC+ so COLUSION is definitely there and but I did mention that on the margins that oil producers were not interested in trying to compete to bring prices down and instead were happy returning profits to shareholders

The oil companies are required by law to tell the truth on their earnings calls, and on their earnings calls they are saying “yes there is some inflation but our profit margins are greatly exceeding that inflation. We can do whatever tf we want and make bank” the only way they can just jack up prices above and beyond the additional costs incurred is if all the oil companies collude and agree to artificially raise prices. Otherwise the ones raising the price for the fun of it would go out of business bc why pay $3/gal when you can just go across the street and get the exact same thing for $2? crap only works if they all agree to jack up the prices the same

[MakeItRain]

Nothing more heart warming than when sys and kim carnes lose their crap when someone in congress dares to challenge corporate interests putting maximizing profits ahead of literally everything else.

[sys]

Nothing more heart warming than when sys and kim carnes lose their crap when someone in congress dares to challenge corporate interests putting maximizing profits ahead of literally everything else.

i don't like it when politicians lie to the american people.  of course, the worse possibility is that he believes his own crap.

[MakeItRain]

Nothing more heart warming than when sys and kim carnes lose their crap when someone in congress dares to challenge corporate interests putting maximizing profits ahead of literally everything else.

i don't like it when politicians lie to the american people.  of course, the worse possibility is that he believes his own crap.

KK laid it out so I'm not going to rehash it but I think you get his general point that in this time of inflation oil companies are still profiting and not by small margins either. Yes, the crude price is almost 4x as it was in March of 2020, but big oil could certainly give the consumers a break if they wanted to. Pretty tough to make that point in a tweet, so I'll concede that he was using hyperbole, not sure his actual point is a lie though.

[michigancat]

Every politician uses similar rhetoric (lies), sys just hates socialists.

[sys]

Every politician uses similar rhetoric (lies), sys just hates socialists.

not all politicians lie.

[sys]

I think you get his general point that in this time of inflation oil companies are still profiting and not by small margins either. Yes, the crude price is almost 4x as it was in March of 2020, but big oil could certainly give the consumers a break if they wanted to.

big oil, little oil, state-owned oil and private oil all want to sell their surplus oil for as much as they can.  they wanted to do this just as much when oil was under $20 per barrel as they did when it was over $95 per barrel.

[sonofdaxjones]

What are big oils margins?

[Kat Kid]

I think you get his general point that in this time of inflation oil companies are still profiting and not by small margins either. Yes, the crude price is almost 4x as it was in March of 2020, but big oil could certainly give the consumers a break if they wanted to.

big oil, little oil, state-owned oil and private oil all want to sell their surplus oil for as much as they can.  they wanted to do this just as much when oil was under $20 per barrel as they did when it was over $95 per barrel.

“Surplus oil” is doing some pretty heavy lifting considering a cartel controls the supply and the entire point everyone has made is that there is a simultaneous desire on the part of a variety of actors in private market to not compete for the marginal dollars that could be made by ramping up supply.

[sys]

i only added "surplus" to account for state-owned producers that retail domestically below market.


i strongly disagree with your assertion that non-state producers have either the incentive or the ability to impact price by limiting supply.  hell, even the largest state producers, united in a cartel specifically for the purpose of controlling pricing, from all appearances have a pretty limited ability to shift markets.

[MakeItRain]

i only added "surplus" to account for state-owned producers that retail domestically below market.


i strongly disagree with your assertion that non-state producers have either the incentive or the ability to impact price by limiting supply.  hell, even the largest state producers, united in a cartel specifically for the purpose of controlling pricing, from all appearances have a pretty limited ability to shift markets.

Where or what do you think shifts the markets? Do you think these market shifts are mostly consumer driven?

[sys]

Where or what do you think shifts the markets? Do you think these market shifts are mostly consumer driven?

yeah, demand can shift faster than supply.  it takes a fair bit of time for new supply to come on line or excess capacity to work it's way out, but demand can change quickly (as it did in march 2020).  so i think there are fairly slow supply-driven cycles and also demand-driven spikes and craters around that.


link to an annual consumption chart.  2020 was pretty dramatic.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/271823/daily-global-crude-oil-demand-since-2006/

[MakeItRain]

Where or what do you think shifts the markets? Do you think these market shifts are mostly consumer driven?

yeah, demand can shift faster than supply.  it takes a fair bit of time for new supply to come on line or excess capacity to work it's way out, but demand can change quickly (as it did in march 2020).  so i think there are fairly slow supply-driven cycles and also demand-driven spikes and craters around that.


link to an annual consumption chart.  2020 was pretty dramatic.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/271823/daily-global-crude-oil-demand-since-2006/

Thank you for engaging in this conversation, my knowledge of this issue is rudimentary so I appreciate the discourse.

My next question is if demand is the primary driver of the market, can you explain the current price of crude oil being 2x what it was in 2019 when the demand was slightly higher?

[Kat Kid]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5xY86lDT8zhuf3s8gS2dM8?si=DPUeAVADSh6uyiPQGl7aUA

Listening now to see what Joe and Tracy have to say.

[sonofdaxjones]

https://twitter.com/philthatremains/status/1495746881703534602?s=21

[Kat Kid]

The idea that the left agrees on any of this is hilarious.

[sonofdaxjones]

#LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kat Kid]

The guy makes the same point I’ve made, the companies are more profitable than ever, US Shale is not being brought on much at all and because of low cap x and better fiscal discipline the companies are more sustainably profitable than at $150 previously.