The Trump Presidency

[DQ12]

I’m under no obligation to describe the appropriate response for the hypothetical murdering of 1 million children a year in this country.

However, anyone who believes that 1 million children are indeed murdered a year by way of abortion should be under the obligation to define a reasonable response to the murdering of 1 million children a year in this country.

I think political activity, monetary support, and participating in collective protests are reasonable.

Your turn.

[Pete]

If the government was allowing parents to execute their five-year-old child and this happened 1 million times a year in our country, I think people would do more than, vote,  write a check and walk in the parade.

I’d think I’d see more things like mass boycotts, a refusal to go to work unless my employer came out against the murder of these children, shunning family members neighbors and friends, people joining militia groups to try and intervene if the government did not stop the execution of the children, the list goes on.

[CNS]

Pete - I talked about your “do crazy crap” take the other day.  If you’re still confused, or you still believe I’m being disingenuous, I’m happy to further clarify my position.

Regarding abortion, here is why I don’t give a pass:

The literal only way you can call early abortion murder is if you believe in a soul. This immediately makes this a religious belief. Pressing a religious belief on anyone should never be something our govt does.

If you want religion in govt, there are plenty other places you can move to. If you want to shut the eff up and let others live their life without forcing others to live as if they are a part of your cult, cool, stay, and practice how you like without making others do so.

There is no argument against that. It’s what freedom of religion actually is.

My views on abortion don’t invoke a belief in God any more than my views on theft, slavery, murder, etc.

Most every law is rooted in some kind of morality. I assume you believe it ought to be illegal to batter an old woman - does that have something to do with whether or not the old woman has a soul?  Or is it because you instinctively believe it’s unjust/immoral/wrong for someone to batter another?

For all the fringe arguments on abortion, what it all really comes down to is whether you think the human being that’s killed has the same value and/or rights that other humans do.  I do.  You guys don’t.  In the overwhelming majority of cases, it’s really that simple, imo

I completely reject this as a counter argument. It’s disingenuous. It’s asking me to accept that you think a small group of cells is a human being while demanding that I defend my own morality. It’s a trick. There is no way any intelligent human believes a clump of a couple dozen cells is a human being without the idea of religion and a soul being the driver for that belief. The idea of that belief is one worthy of being mocked if religion isn’t involved.  The religious want government to mandate their beliefs. I don’t get why religious don’t admit this.  It has to either be that religious ppl know what they are doing and are acting in what I would deem an immoral way, or they aren’t able to understand the barriers of faith and logical reason.

[mocat]

doing a nazi salute is the new FJB

[CNS]

doing a nazi salute is the new FJB

If you want to make a quick buck put some truck stickers up on Rebubble.

[Pete]

My point is that 99% of people who are against abortion do not actually think it is equivalent to murdering a five-year-old child, or equivalent to any other kind of murder of a human being.

My belief is that for 99% of the abortion opponents it is merely about social control and they are too ashamed to say so. The irony is that the inaction against “abortion as murder” actually shames them more.

[DQ12]

Pete - I talked about your “do crazy crap” take the other day.  If you’re still confused, or you still believe I’m being disingenuous, I’m happy to further clarify my position.

Regarding abortion, here is why I don’t give a pass:

The literal only way you can call early abortion murder is if you believe in a soul. This immediately makes this a religious belief. Pressing a religious belief on anyone should never be something our govt does.

If you want religion in govt, there are plenty other places you can move to. If you want to shut the eff up and let others live their life without forcing others to live as if they are a part of your cult, cool, stay, and practice how you like without making others do so.

There is no argument against that. It’s what freedom of religion actually is.

My views on abortion don’t invoke a belief in God any more than my views on theft, slavery, murder, etc.

Most every law is rooted in some kind of morality. I assume you believe it ought to be illegal to batter an old woman - does that have something to do with whether or not the old woman has a soul?  Or is it because you instinctively believe it’s unjust/immoral/wrong for someone to batter another?

For all the fringe arguments on abortion, what it all really comes down to is whether you think the human being that’s killed has the same value and/or rights that other humans do.  I do.  You guys don’t.  In the overwhelming majority of cases, it’s really that simple, imo

I completely reject this as a counter argument. It’s disingenuous. It’s asking me to accept that you think a small group of cells is a human being while demanding that I defend my own morality. It’s a trick. There is no way any intelligent human believes a clump of a couple dozen cells is a human being without the idea of religion and a soul being the driver for that belief. The idea of that belief is one worthy of being mocked if religion isn’t involved.  The religious want government to mandate their beliefs. I don’t get why religious don’t admit this.  It has to either be that religious ppl know what they are doing and are acting in what I would deem an immoral way, or they aren’t able to understand the barriers of faith and logical reason.

You don’t think embryos are human?  If you want to say they’re not “persons” or something, I’ve heard people argue that, but I think it’s generally accepted that they’re “humans” (albeit extremely immature ones).

[wetwillie]

It's a demand problem not a supply problem.  The efforts should be on reducing demand.

[Justwin]

My point is that 99% of people who are against abortion do not actually think it is equivalent to murdering a five-year-old child, or equivalent to any other kind of murder of a human being.

My belief is that for 99% of the abortion opponents it is merely about social control and they are too ashamed to say so. The irony is that the inaction against “abortion as murder” actually shames them more.

So what is an action that would convince you that abortion opponents truly believe it is equivalent to murder?

[DQ12]

Me when my wife makes a good point:

I completely reject this as a counter argument. It’s disingenuous…It’s a trick.

[DQ12]

My point is that 99% of people who are against abortion do not actually think it is equivalent to murdering a five-year-old child, or equivalent to any other kind of murder of a human being.

My belief is that for 99% of the abortion opponents it is merely about social control and they are too ashamed to say so. The irony is that the inaction against “abortion as murder” actually shames them more.

So what is an action that would convince you that abortion opponents truly believe it is equivalent to murder?

He apparently thinks we should quit our jobs and join a militia that doesn’t exist. 

Fwiw, like I said the other day, I don’t think it’s the equivalent of killing any other person.  I think the intent and culpability are different.  I do think both result in an unjustified killing of another human, and I think that’s a reasonable definition of “murder.” 

[Dugout DickStone]

Pete literally asked what you would do if parents were getting tired of their 3 year olds and euthanizing them at home millions of times a year.  If your answer is “absolutely nothing different than I am currently doing” then you’re being consistent.  His question is just a litmus.

[Dugout DickStone]

I think there is a better thread for the abortion debate.  This thread is to discuss the plane crash President.

[DQ12]

Pete literally asked what you would do if parents were getting tired of their 3 year olds and euthanizing them at home millions of times a year.  If your answer is “absolutely nothing different than I am currently doing” then you’re being consistent.  His question is just a litmus.

I mean, if thats literally what he asked, I missed it.

If we lived in this alternate reality where the law was “parents can euthanize their kids up to 3 years old,” and most of society agreed that was an OK thing to do, and that’s toe society I grew up in, and I, in the minority, believed it wasn’t, I’d probably oppose it in the same way I oppose abortion, yeah.

[catastrophe]

Pete literally asked what you would do if parents were getting tired of their 3 year olds and euthanizing them at home millions of times a year.  If your answer is “absolutely nothing different than I am currently doing” then you’re being consistent.  His question is just a litmus.

It’s an interesting thought experiment, but if you think there is ANY incredibly widespread practice that is horrifying to a smaller group of the population, I think you’re hopelessly naive if you think the response would look different than the pro life movement does now.

Maybe a better question would be whether Pete thinks PETA is going far enough in their response to animals being murdered?

[Pete]

I definitely do not believe that DLew thinks abortion is equivalent to murder in the same way that murdering a three-year-old is murder. I do not think that De Louise would pass that lie detector test.

[Justwin]

Pete literally asked what you would do if parents were getting tired of their 3 year olds and euthanizing them at home millions of times a year.  If your answer is “absolutely nothing different than I am currently doing” then you’re being consistent.  His question is just a litmus.

I mean, if thats literally what he asked, I missed it.

If we lived in this alternate reality where the law was “parents can euthanize their kids up to 3 years old,” and most of society agreed that was an OK thing to do, and I, in the minority, believed it wasn’t, I’d probably oppose it in the same way I oppose abortion, yeah.

I would oppose parents euthanizing their kids the same way I oppose abortion. Advocate for laws against it, set up and work with child crisis centers through my church, pray for those that feel compelled to kill their child, looking at adoption/fostering once my kids are grown, etc.

[Pete]

I definitely do not believe that DLew thinks abortion is equivalent to murder in the same way that murdering a three-year-old is murder. I do not think that De Louise would pass that lie detector test.

And I should note that he doesn’t claim to

[Pete]

He isn’t speaking on behalf of all abortion opponents. I acknowledge that.

[Dugout DickStone]

I wouldn’t.  I’m pro choice and I’d be pretty active in finding those parents who were considering this because the kid is expensive and inconvenient and finding that kid a home either with me or in a network of like minded people.

[CNS]

Pete - I talked about your “do crazy crap” take the other day.  If you’re still confused, or you still believe I’m being disingenuous, I’m happy to further clarify my position.

Regarding abortion, here is why I don’t give a pass:

The literal only way you can call early abortion murder is if you believe in a soul. This immediately makes this a religious belief. Pressing a religious belief on anyone should never be something our govt does.

If you want religion in govt, there are plenty other places you can move to. If you want to shut the eff up and let others live their life without forcing others to live as if they are a part of your cult, cool, stay, and practice how you like without making others do so.

There is no argument against that. It’s what freedom of religion actually is.

My views on abortion don’t invoke a belief in God any more than my views on theft, slavery, murder, etc.

Most every law is rooted in some kind of morality. I assume you believe it ought to be illegal to batter an old woman - does that have something to do with whether or not the old woman has a soul?  Or is it because you instinctively believe it’s unjust/immoral/wrong for someone to batter another?

For all the fringe arguments on abortion, what it all really comes down to is whether you think the human being that’s killed has the same value and/or rights that other humans do.  I do.  You guys don’t.  In the overwhelming majority of cases, it’s really that simple, imo

I completely reject this as a counter argument. It’s disingenuous. It’s asking me to accept that you think a small group of cells is a human being while demanding that I defend my own morality. It’s a trick. There is no way any intelligent human believes a clump of a couple dozen cells is a human being without the idea of religion and a soul being the driver for that belief. The idea of that belief is one worthy of being mocked if religion isn’t involved.  The religious want government to mandate their beliefs. I don’t get why religious don’t admit this.  It has to either be that religious ppl know what they are doing and are acting in what I would deem an immoral way, or they aren’t able to understand the barriers of faith and logical reason.

You don’t think embryos are human?  If you want to say they’re not “persons” or something, I’ve heard people argue that, but I think it’s generally accepted that they’re “humans” (albeit extremely immature ones).

Human cells are human, but that does not make them human beings.  And you were totally avoiding my point.

[Pete]

Pete literally asked what you would do if parents were getting tired of their 3 year olds and euthanizing them at home millions of times a year.  If your answer is “absolutely nothing different than I am currently doing” then you’re being consistent.  His question is just a litmus.

I mean, if thats literally what he asked, I missed it.

If we lived in this alternate reality where the law was “parents can euthanize their kids up to 3 years old,” and most of society agreed that was an OK thing to do, and I, in the minority, believed it wasn’t, I’d probably oppose it in the same way I oppose abortion, yeah.

I would oppose parents euthanizing their kids the same way I oppose abortion. Advocate for laws against it, set up and work with child crisis centers through my church, pray for those that feel compelled to kill their child, looking at adoption/fostering once my kids are grown, etc.

That strikes me me as an awfully low standard

[Justwin]

I wouldn’t.  I’m pro choice and I’d be pretty active in finding those parents who were considering this because the kid is expensive and inconvenient and finding that kid a home either with me or in a network of like minded people.

That's because you are focused on the flesh and things of this world. I am not.

[Pete]

“man I’ve been up all night praying that my neighbor stops murdering three-year-olds but hey what the eff can I do? Guess I’ll just get down on my knees and throw another one up for the big guy.”

[Justwin]

Pete literally asked what you would do if parents were getting tired of their 3 year olds and euthanizing them at home millions of times a year.  If your answer is “absolutely nothing different than I am currently doing” then you’re being consistent.  His question is just a litmus.

I mean, if thats literally what he asked, I missed it.

If we lived in this alternate reality where the law was “parents can euthanize their kids up to 3 years old,” and most of society agreed that was an OK thing to do, and I, in the minority, believed it wasn’t, I’d probably oppose it in the same way I oppose abortion, yeah.

I would oppose parents euthanizing their kids the same way I oppose abortion. Advocate for laws against it, set up and work with child crisis centers through my church, pray for those that feel compelled to kill their child, looking at adoption/fostering once my kids are grown, etc.

That strikes me me as an awfully low standard

That's because you are focused on the flesh and things of this world. I am not.

I view the single most powerful thing I can do to oppose abortion is praying for God's will to be done on earth and to change the hearts of those that have/provide abortions.