Author Topic: Gender Issues  (Read 43239 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline yoga-like_abana

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 13186
  • Don't @ me boy, cause I ain't said crap
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #625 on: April 01, 2021, 03:19:04 PM »
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.

true, but it seems like you and catastrophe are implying that anyone giving kids freedom to express their gender at early ages are shitty parents, and plenty of data shows that they aren't. This isn't confusing at all for cis kids, it's confusing for trans kids and giving them freedom to express who they feel they are is positive.
I don't think we implied that at all. I think you inferred it which is ok #1cat

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #626 on: April 01, 2021, 03:24:28 PM »
take it to the shitty parents thread!

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Gender Issues
« Reply #627 on: April 01, 2021, 03:53:06 PM »
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.
Yeah I mean, Mich you literally just posted that you believe a large number of parents have driven their children to suicide. If you think that’s a phenomenon unique to red states take it to the SF things thread.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #628 on: April 01, 2021, 04:13:47 PM »
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.
Yeah I mean, Mich you literally just posted that you believe a large number of parents have driven their children to suicide. If you think that’s a phenomenon unique to red states take it to the SF things thread.

I don't think it's a large number, but I think it's much larger than the number of people who do damage to kids by forcing gender transition on kids too early or whatever you seem to be concerned with

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #629 on: April 01, 2021, 04:32:32 PM »
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #630 on: April 01, 2021, 10:25:36 PM »
found it, it was called Transhood (HBO)...it was the kid who had the same hair as that snitch Tekashi...

Thank you dal, I'll check it out while Gonzaga are kicking the crap out of UCLA.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #631 on: April 01, 2021, 10:34:36 PM »
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

No, eff that, eff all that bullshit. There's research, and a fuckton of it related to rusty's point. Here's one
https://www.insider.com/trans-youth-avoid-suicidal-thoughts-depressioon-with-early-care-2020-9
Google transgender children suicide and have a rough ridin' field day with all the research.

Now find me one solitary piece of academic research or eff, let's lower the bar, give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created. Honestly, it's the stupidest rough ridin' thing I've heard this week, something I'd expect 7 to post from aggy. A parent willing their child into gender identity issues, lol. 1Cat  :jerk:

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #632 on: April 01, 2021, 11:02:54 PM »
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #633 on: April 02, 2021, 12:06:24 AM »
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

No, eff that, eff all that bullshit. There's research, and a fuckton of it related to rusty's point. Here's one
https://www.insider.com/trans-youth-avoid-suicidal-thoughts-depressioon-with-early-care-2020-9
Google transgender children suicide and have a rough ridin' field day with all the research.

Now find me one solitary piece of academic research or eff, let's lower the bar, give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created. Honestly, it's the stupidest rough ridin' thing I've heard this week, something I'd expect 7 to post from aggy. A parent willing their child into gender identity issues, lol. 1Cat  :jerk:
I mean if you want an anecdote, this was a pretty famous one: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50172907

But the most important thing to me is we have a lot to learn. Yes there are lots of surveys and anecdotes like the ones we’ve cited, but the scientific literature is always a bit slower to develop.

For example, is gender identity necessarily something you’re born with, or can it change suddenly late in life?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822150809.htm

Quote
"This kind of descriptive study is important because it defines a group and raises questions for more research," said study author Lisa Littman, an assistant professor of the practice of behavioral and social sciences at Brown's School of Public Health. "One of the main conclusions is that more research needs to be done. Descriptive studies aren't randomized controlled trials -- you can't tell cause and effect, and you can't tell prevalence. It's going to take more studies to bring in more information, but this is a start."

Does fully transitioning really improve mental health?

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Quote
While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups, the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

As illustrated in the article I posted at the top, everyone can find their villains in a given story. I don’t really think that’s a productive way to approach the issue, though.

Offline Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 41955
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #634 on: April 02, 2021, 12:33:27 AM »
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #635 on: April 02, 2021, 11:06:01 AM »
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

No, eff that, eff all that bullshit. There's research, and a fuckton of it related to rusty's point. Here's one
https://www.insider.com/trans-youth-avoid-suicidal-thoughts-depressioon-with-early-care-2020-9
Google transgender children suicide and have a rough ridin' field day with all the research.

Now find me one solitary piece of academic research or eff, let's lower the bar, give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created. Honestly, it's the stupidest rough ridin' thing I've heard this week, something I'd expect 7 to post from aggy. A parent willing their child into gender identity issues, lol. 1Cat  :jerk:
I mean if you want an anecdote, this was a pretty famous one: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50172907

That dad is a piece of crap, there's no evidence the kid was pressured into being transgender. The kid's twin brother, counselors, teachers, child protective services, and doctors all agreed the child was choosing to express as a girl and that it was the dad doing the pressuring.

(terrible format but here's some court transcripts):

https://twitter.com/barrydeutsch/status/1186876406342402054

I think we have plenty to learn, but the links you shared aren't related to social transition for young children, which is widely recommended by doctors and kind of what set off this conversation. I definitely agree that puberty delay and medical/surgical transition needs to be more carefully considered (and it typically is).

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Gender Issues
« Reply #636 on: April 02, 2021, 12:16:13 PM »
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

And agree the surgery stuff is obviously different, but that correction is a good reminder of why peer review can be important before taking some studies as gospel.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 12:19:34 PM by catastrophe »

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #637 on: April 02, 2021, 12:31:51 PM »
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Right, but you're asking someone who feels this way to explain why or how they feel this way, in the case of this conversation a child at that, when those of us who don't feel that can't explain why we don't. I think you're asking for an explanation because it's an unconventional feeling, but the conventional feeling doesn't come with an explanation either.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #638 on: April 02, 2021, 12:35:46 PM »
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

And agree the surgery stuff is obviously different, but that correction is a good reminder of why peer review can be important before taking some studies as gospel.

So are you ditching this absurd narrative about parents forcing gender dysmorphia onto a child? I'm legit stunned that you don't know how stupid that sounds, I would never play devil's advocate with such a problematic thought.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #639 on: April 02, 2021, 12:52:11 PM »
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

And agree the surgery stuff is obviously different, but that correction is a good reminder of why peer review can be important before taking some studies as gospel.

So are you ditching this absurd narrative about parents forcing gender dysmorphia onto a child? I'm legit stunned that you don't know how stupid that sounds, I would never play devil's advocate with such a problematic thought.
I was responding to your request

Quote
give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created

While politely suggesting it was not a productive topic to explore.

Offline Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 41955
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #640 on: April 02, 2021, 12:57:48 PM »
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Right, but you're asking someone who feels this way to explain why or how they feel this way, in the case of this conversation a child at that, when those of us who don't feel that can't explain why we don't. I think you're asking for an explanation because it's an unconventional feeling, but the conventional feeling doesn't come with an explanation either.

I definitely don't want it from a child.  That's why I separated out the quotes I did initially to just be about the inability of myself or someone who doesn't have any similar or analogous experience to perceive how this can be.  I haven't seen anything I can simply read that bridges what I'm missing.  So I'm not sure there's anything that could do that beyond someone, obviously an adult with a lot of patience, trying to educate me.

And I don't think it's the difference between an unconventional feeling vs. a conventional feeling.  From what I've gathered, you and I agree as to us "feeling" male, or right-handed, or black and white, that we don't "feel" that.  We know (?) we are male, right-handed, etc. b/c those things are defined to us by the physical characteristics. 

But there's obviously something beyond that "I am because of this piece of physical evidence" that I don't grasp what that is or how it comes to be.  Perhaps "feel" or "feeling" is the wrong word, but I'm using it from this:

Quote
Gender identity is how you feel inside and how you express your gender through clothing, behavior, and personal appearance. It’s a feeling that begins very early in life.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity

The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #641 on: April 02, 2021, 01:06:54 PM »
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Right, but you're asking someone who feels this way to explain why or how they feel this way, in the case of this conversation a child at that, when those of us who don't feel that can't explain why we don't. I think you're asking for an explanation because it's an unconventional feeling, but the conventional feeling doesn't come with an explanation either.

I definitely don't want it from a child.  That's why I separated out the quotes I did initially to just be about the inability of myself or someone who doesn't have any similar or analogous experience to perceive how this can be.  I haven't seen anything I can simply read that bridges what I'm missing.  So I'm not sure there's anything that could do that beyond someone, obviously an adult with a lot of patience, trying to educate me.

And I don't think it's the difference between an unconventional feeling vs. a conventional feeling.  From what I've gathered, you and I agree as to us "feeling" male, or right-handed, or black and white, that we don't "feel" that.  We know (?) we are male, right-handed, etc. b/c those things are defined to us by the physical characteristics. 

But there's obviously something beyond that "I am because of this piece of physical evidence" that I don't grasp what that is or how it comes to be.  Perhaps "feel" or "feeling" is the wrong word, but I'm using it from this:

Quote
Gender identity is how you feel inside and how you express your gender through clothing, behavior, and personal appearance. It’s a feeling that begins very early in life.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity

The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #642 on: April 02, 2021, 01:12:47 PM »
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

nah, the judge just said the state shouldn't be interfering. (except they are because they left the couple with guidelines and a mediator for making medical decisions about the child). If his allegations were deemed valid it's unlikely the mom would have joint custody.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #643 on: April 02, 2021, 01:17:00 PM »
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

nah, the judge just said the state shouldn't be interfering. (except they are because they left the couple with guidelines and a mediator for making medical decisions about the child). If his allegations were deemed valid it's unlikely the mom would have joint custody.
A state shouldn’t be interfering in a custody dispute? The article I linked said the judge determined neither parent should be charged with abuse. I have a hard time seeing how you get to that conclusion if you totally believed one side over the other.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #644 on: April 02, 2021, 01:23:44 PM »
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

nah, the judge just said the state shouldn't be interfering. (except they are because they left the couple with guidelines and a mediator for making medical decisions about the child). If his allegations were deemed valid it's unlikely the mom would have joint custody.
A state shouldn’t be interfering in a custody dispute? The article I linked said the judge determined neither parent should be charged with abuse. I have a hard time seeing how you get to that conclusion if you totally believed one side over the other.

I didn't clarify, the judge said the state shouldn't be interfering in the gender affirmation and medical decision making

Quote
“The state of Texas has no compelling interest to justify such interference… requiring the father to affirm the child and honor the child’s choices,” Judge Cooks said.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/10/24/judge-dallas-volatile-custody-case-gender-identity/

Offline Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 41955
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #645 on: April 02, 2021, 02:37:30 PM »
The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

:thumbs:  So that's a conclusion that could be reached, but I've been looking for more of the information on how it's reached.  What is the mechanism within us that "feels" our true gender, race, etc., distinct from basing it on the physical evidence?

I'd also be curious why society treats different examples of "feeling something other than what physical characteristics reflect" differently.  Relatively few rock with Rachel Dolezal's self-identification of race.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #646 on: April 02, 2021, 02:53:08 PM »
The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

:thumbs:  So that's a conclusion that could be reached, but I've been looking for more of the information on how it's reached.  What is the mechanism within us that "feels" our true gender, race, etc., distinct from basing it on the physical evidence?

I'd also be curious why society treats different examples of "feeling something other than what physical characteristics reflect" differently.  Relatively few rock with Rachel Dolezal's self-identification of race.

my guess is because races don't "feel different" like genders do. You could argue race is just made up by society

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15100
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #647 on: April 02, 2021, 03:56:02 PM »
The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

:thumbs:  So that's a conclusion that could be reached, but I've been looking for more of the information on how it's reached.  What is the mechanism within us that "feels" our true gender, race, etc., distinct from basing it on the physical evidence?

I'd also be curious why society treats different examples of "feeling something other than what physical characteristics reflect" differently.  Relatively few rock with Rachel Dolezal's self-identification of race.

my guess is because races don't "feel different" like genders do. You could argue race is just made up by society
How is that different than gender?

Quote
As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #648 on: April 02, 2021, 04:41:39 PM »
Gender isn't only a social construct

Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 20946
  • Scholar/Gentleman, But Super Earthy/Organic
    • View Profile
Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #649 on: April 02, 2021, 05:11:47 PM »
Gender isn't only a social construct

I'm sure there are entire volumes written on this, but my understanding is that it IS one's perception of how they fit into a social construct. (As opposed to the concept of biological sex. As always, the law lags behind in this regard.)

Put me in the camp of "what business of mine is it how individuals want and/or feel compelled to define themselves?" I could not care less, and any freedom loving American ought to feel the same. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a true patriot.