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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 10:22:51 AM

Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 10:22:51 AM
(https://goodbyeamericainaphoto.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/trandadfeed.png?w=623&h=373)

Wait, so is he like a woman who became a man but likes women? Or a woman who became a man and likes men? Which one is gay?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 05, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
Man (who was formerly a woman) who likes men.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 01:33:06 PM
Man (who was formerly a woman) who likes men.

Ah, so not gay, but in a homosexual relationship. The world is so complicated these days.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 05, 2016, 01:41:00 PM
That's gay, and it's not complicated at all
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 01:45:59 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 05, 2016, 01:47:28 PM
 :bwpopcorn:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 05, 2016, 01:50:22 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 05, 2016, 01:51:05 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 01:55:03 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.

That's pretty narrow minded to assume I would only get a sex change because I identify as a woman. What if I just wanted to improve my golf game?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 05, 2016, 01:57:16 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.

That's pretty narrow minded to assume I would only get a sex change because I identify as a woman. What if I just wanted to improve my golf game?

Do ball(s) get in the way of playing golf? I'd think the addition of breasts would be more of a hindrance.
LGIQ here.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 05, 2016, 02:02:32 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.

That's pretty narrow minded to assume I would only get a sex change because I identify as a woman. What if I just wanted to improve my golf game?

Do ball(s) get in the way of playing golf? I'd think the addition of breasts would be more of a hindrance.
LGIQ here.
You get to move up to the tips. A fairly huge advantage.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 02:04:33 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.

That's pretty narrow minded to assume I would only get a sex change because I identify as a woman. What if I just wanted to improve my golf game?

Do ball(s) get in the way of playing golf? I'd think the addition of breasts would be more of a hindrance.
LGIQ here.

http://nesn.com/2016/03/caitlyn-jenner-says-shes-better-at-golf-because-of-her-female-anatomy-video/
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 05, 2016, 02:31:42 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.

What is the point of a sex change then?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 05, 2016, 02:45:50 PM
So is the guy banging the girl that identifies as a guy gay?  :confused:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 02:58:11 PM
So is the guy banging the girl that identifies as a guy gay?  :confused:

Not gay, but maybe in a homosexual relationship.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 05, 2016, 03:00:18 PM
So is the guy banging the girl that identifies as a guy gay?  :confused:

Maybe gay, maybe bi. There's not enough info
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 05, 2016, 03:00:26 PM
Maybe this will help:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yc4efBM_9JM (starting around 2:20)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 05, 2016, 03:02:14 PM
So if I like women and get a sex change and still like women, the operation turned me gay?

Seems to go against the whole "born that way" argument.

No because you were also born female, just your body didn't conform to your gender identification.

What is the point of a sex change then?

To align your body with your gender identification. There are a number of reasons why a trans person may or may not want to get one though
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 05, 2016, 03:03:51 PM
This is not difficult to understand, like at all
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 05, 2016, 03:07:15 PM
So is the guy banging the girl that identifies as a guy gay?  :confused:

Maybe gay, maybe bi. There's not enough info

Ok so let's say normal dude is married to normal girl, they bang, have kids, yadda yadda.  But then she decides she wants a sex change and to dress and identify as a dude, but still be married and all that. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 05, 2016, 03:09:38 PM
That's really for the guy to decide. Sexuality isn't binary
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on May 05, 2016, 03:10:42 PM
So is the guy banging the girl that identifies as a guy gay?  :confused:

Maybe gay, maybe bi. There's not enough info

Ok so let's say normal dude is married to normal girl, they bang, have kids, yadda yadda.  But then she decides she wants a sex change and to dress and identify as a dude, but still be married and all that.

That's kind of how it went for Caitlyn, right?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 05, 2016, 03:11:59 PM
This is not difficult to understand, like at all

A male being born a female is kind of confusing imo if one is a physical sex and the other is a social construct(how am I born with a social construct  :confused:).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 05, 2016, 03:13:10 PM
Well females aren't a social construct so maybe that's your confusion
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 05, 2016, 03:16:23 PM
Well females aren't a social construct so maybe that's your confusion

Thanks, what are the proper terms for the gender identifications?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mocat on May 05, 2016, 03:19:07 PM
some people really have a hard time grappling with Trim 3:16
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: asava on May 05, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
JFC.  :facepalm: to all of you.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 05, 2016, 03:46:08 PM
So is the guy banging the girl that identifies as a guy gay?  :confused:

Maybe gay, maybe bi. There's not enough info

Ok so let's say normal dude is married to normal girl, they bang, have kids, yadda yadda.  But then she decides she wants a sex change and to dress and identify as a dude, but still be married and all that.

That's kind of how it went for Caitlyn, right?

Well sort of (like the opposite person changed though) but they didn't stay together.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 05, 2016, 03:56:58 PM
This is not difficult to understand, like at all

Here are some charts to help people understand.

(http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyszkuQIfS1qghfy5o1_500.png)

(http://theterfs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/gender-orientation.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/2KWecRZ.jpg)

(http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/226/2/2/gender_spectrum_blank_by_prettyfrog-d46km6h.png)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 05, 2016, 04:09:47 PM
The TSA will never understand this. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:36:57 AM
(http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/226/2/2/gender_spectrum_blank_by_prettyfrog-d46km6h.png)
The eff is this?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
(http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/226/2/2/gender_spectrum_blank_by_prettyfrog-d46km6h.png)
The eff is this?

A two-dimensional representation of the gender spectrum
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 06, 2016, 09:06:13 AM
I'm a 1-6
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 09:21:45 AM
Here's another really good chart to help you understand.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13179452_1729506410598860_1671504373084117367_n.png?oh=c4274aade158c1d97b3148321e6bc180&oe=57A2D6E2)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 09:27:46 AM
Here's another really good chart to help you understand.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13179452_1729506410598860_1671504373084117367_n.png?oh=c4274aade158c1d97b3148321e6bc180&oe=57A2D6E2)
You are picking the wrong fight.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: slobber on May 06, 2016, 09:51:51 AM
(http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/226/2/2/gender_spectrum_blank_by_prettyfrog-d46km6h.png)
The eff is this?

A two-dimensional representation of the gender spectrum
6 Point Scales are meaningless. 7 or go home.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mocat on May 06, 2016, 11:03:46 AM
It is a 7 point scale but the most anyone can be is 6/7
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 11:22:46 AM
So a 6,6 is maxed out on both the male and female scale and yet presents as gay, bi, trans etc. - but def. not agender? Why?  Wouldn't the max. female and max. male cancel each other out and they would be just agender?  Wouldn't a 1,1; 2,2; 3,3; 4,4; and a 5,5 present the same way as a 6,6?  How does a 1,0 present compared to a 6,0? The 1,0 works out on the elliptical and builds models while a 6,0 deadlifts all day and wrenches on his diesel dually?  That chart is fuckery of the highest degree.     
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 06, 2016, 11:53:24 AM
You are all probably just confused because of the chart format.  Try this much more intuitive illustration of gender ID:
(http://sycra.net/sycra_colour_wheel.png)
Notice, no labels because stop being so binary about gender.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 12:00:22 PM
You are all probably just confused because of the chart format.  Try this much more intuitive illustration of gender ID:
(http://sycra.net/sycra_colour_wheel.png)
Notice, no labels because stop being so binary about gender.
Why?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 12:03:09 PM
You are all probably just confused because of the chart format.  Try this much more intuitive illustration of gender ID:
(http://sycra.net/sycra_colour_wheel.png)
Notice, no labels because stop being so binary about gender.
You can make up any format you want about the gender spectrum but it will never be accurate.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 01:06:04 PM
You are all probably just confused because of the chart format.  Try this much more intuitive illustration of gender ID:
(http://sycra.net/sycra_colour_wheel.png)
Notice, no labels because stop being so binary about gender.

what a great post.  catastrophe!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 01:12:57 PM
So a 6,6 is maxed out on both the male and female scale and yet presents as gay, bi, trans etc. - but def. not agender? Why?  Wouldn't the max. female and max. male cancel each other out and they would be just agender?  Wouldn't a 1,1; 2,2; 3,3; 4,4; and a 5,5 present the same way as a 6,6?  How does a 1,0 present compared to a 6,0? The 1,0 works out on the elliptical and builds models while a 6,0 deadlifts all day and wrenches on his diesel dually?  That chart is fuckery of the highest degree.     

First off, see my first chart: Gender and sexuality are not linked so your reference to gay or bi has nothing to do with this chart.

Second off, male and female do not "cancel each other out".  This reminds me of when I was a kid and thought salt and pepper cancelled each other out so if I put on too much salt I'd just add more pepper then when I got too much pepper just add more salt until the food was both too salty and too peppery even though in theory it should be neutral.

Of course this chart isn't the perfect description of the gender spectrum but it is a way for people to try to understand it rather than just two check boxes:
(http://kb.cakemail.com/en/contact_lists/customizing.forms/image2.png)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 01:15:15 PM
Gender and sexuality are not linked.

there's actually a strong correlation.  it's not far-fetched to posit a causal link.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 01:18:28 PM
Gender and sexuality are not linked.

there's actually a strong correlation.  it's not far-fetched to posit a causal link.

Are you saying (for instance) that all females (6,1) would be attracted to males (1,6)? No, I don't think that is correct. Haven't you ever heard of a lipstick lesbian?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on May 06, 2016, 01:22:13 PM
Gender and sexuality are not linked.

there's actually a strong correlation.  it's not far-fetched to posit a causal link.

Are you saying (for instance) that all females (6,1) would be attracted to males (1,6)? No, I don't think that is correct. Haven't you ever heard of a lipstick lesbian?

The vast majority of females (6,1) are attracted to males (1,6).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 01:33:09 PM
So a 6,6 is maxed out on both the male and female scale and yet presents as gay, bi, trans etc. - but def. not agender? Why?  Wouldn't the max. female and max. male cancel each other out and they would be just agender?  Wouldn't a 1,1; 2,2; 3,3; 4,4; and a 5,5 present the same way as a 6,6?  How does a 1,0 present compared to a 6,0? The 1,0 works out on the elliptical and builds models while a 6,0 deadlifts all day and wrenches on his diesel dually?  That chart is fuckery of the highest degree.     

First off, see my first chart: Gender and sexuality are not linked so your reference to gay or bi has nothing to do with this chart.

Second off, male and female do not "cancel each other out".  This reminds me of when I was a kid and thought salt and pepper cancelled each other out so if I put on too much salt I'd just add more pepper then when I got too much pepper just add more salt until the food was both too salty and too peppery even though in theory it should be neutral.

Of course this chart isn't the perfect description of the gender spectrum but it is a way for people to try to understand it rather than just two check boxes:
(http://kb.cakemail.com/en/contact_lists/customizing.forms/image2.png)
Ok, I did not actually know the definition of genderqueer, I just assumed they were throwing all "others" into that category since they did not fit into "agender".  Which leads to another flaw - where on the gender spectrum do LGBT fall?  They do not get included? Why?

Of course they do not cancel each other out.  I was demonstrating a flaw in the graphic by literally applying what it was displaying.

And yes it is not perfect, and there will never be a perfect way to display the gender spectrum because it is a fallacy. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 01:36:13 PM
Gender and sexuality are not linked.

there's actually a strong correlation.  it's not far-fetched to posit a causal link.

Are you saying (for instance) that all females (6,1) would be attracted to males (1,6)? No, I don't think that is correct. Haven't you ever heard of a lipstick lesbian?
She is a lesbian and not on the chart.  What does a 3,3 present as?  Butch female? Effeminate male? One is still male and the other is still female.   
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 06, 2016, 01:40:56 PM
Why doesn't my driver's license have a 1,6 or 6,1 or whatever it would be on there? 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 01:43:46 PM
Why doesn't my driver's license have a 1,6 or 6,1 or whatever it would be on there?
What matters is - What do you identify as?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 02:16:28 PM

Which leads to another flaw - where on the gender spectrum do LGBT fall?  They do not get included? Why?


No, this is not a flaw. This chart is for gender only, not sexual orientation or sexual attraction.

You can be anywhere on this chart and still have any sexual orientation/attraction. For instance there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to males (heterosexual) or there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to females (homosexual) and there is a spectrum inbetween.

To take sexual orientation into account, you would need to make the chart into a 3D or 4D chart with the spectrum of sexual orientation on the third (into out of the page) and fourth dimension. Like this chart would need to be incorporated as the third & fourth dimensions.
(http://sites.google.com/site/alexisbrookex/_/rsrc/1283948176101/sexual-orientation-spectrum/soslabel.jpg)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 02:28:43 PM
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Institutional Control on May 06, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
Why is bicurious in parenthesis and the rest aren't?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 02:49:09 PM
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:

Looks more like 2 wieners attached to the same guy to me.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 06, 2016, 03:01:24 PM
Mrs Gooch knows a lot about this stuff, esp for Wichita.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mocat on May 06, 2016, 03:02:03 PM
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:

Looks more like 2 wieners attached to the same guy to me.

yes
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 03:15:50 PM

Which leads to another flaw - where on the gender spectrum do LGBT fall?  They do not get included? Why?


No, this is not a flaw. This chart is for gender only, not sexual orientation or sexual attraction.

You can be anywhere on this chart and still have any sexual orientation/attraction. For instance there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to males (heterosexual) or there might be a female (6,1) who is attracted to females (homosexual) and there is a spectrum inbetween.

To take sexual orientation into account, you would need to make the chart into a 3D or 4D chart with the spectrum of sexual orientation on the third (into out of the page) and fourth dimension. Like this chart would need to be incorporated as the third & fourth dimensions.
(http://sites.google.com/site/alexisbrookex/_/rsrc/1283948176101/sexual-orientation-spectrum/soslabel.jpg)
You are positing there is someone who is 80% hetero and 20% homo?  How does that present?  I (male) have sex with 80% females but 20% of the time men?  That would be bi-sexual.  This graph would also suggest that you can be super attracted to the opposite sex or very minutely attracted.  How?  There is no degree of attraction, it is binary, attracted to males - yes or no, attracted to females - yes or no.  :ohno:.  You are piling fallacies on top of fallacies and never fully justifying any of it.  Btw Depth would be third dimension both into and out of the page, 4th dimension is time.  Although introducing time would serve the purpose of further muddying the debate, which may be of use to you.

Back to gender, there are people who identify as different species, a cat for instance, is that gender or mental illness?  There is a male who identifies as a female.  And very specifically a 7-year old female (4th dimension). Gender or mental illness?

How about this model for gender and/or orientation et al;
Homo Sapiens are a dimorphous species; with both forms necessary for reproduction.  The vast majority of the species is oriented to promote reproduction, i.e. hetero.  Unfortunately, nature is not perfect and there are occasional accidents of brain chemistry, genetics, mental health, personality disorder, personal choice or other unexplained reasons where individuals do not fall into the majority.  Sometimes bad people are not able to accept those who are different, but they should because almost always it is not their choice*.

*In the effort to make people feel better about not fitting into the dimorphous model, because feelings, many new terms and terrible graphical representations have been invented.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 03:23:39 PM
Bi-curious is shaped like 2 weiners touching tip to tip :Keke:

Looks more like 2 wieners attached to the same guy to me.
Could be scissoring?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 03:36:07 PM
Yeah, the 3rd dimension would be in and out of the paper and the fourth dimension would be another dimension. (I guess time if you are trying to relate this 4D chart to the real 3 dimensional world; but actually these are just 4 dimensions that really have nothing to do with the 4 dimensions we are perceiving like height, width, depth, and time.)

I do not think the percentage on that chart really has to do with what percentage of your hook ups are with the same or opposite sex. You could feel a strong attraction to women and a small (but still there) attraction to men. On a far corner (0,0) you might have no sexual attractions at all (asexual) and on the opposite corner (100,100) you would be attracted to all genders (pansexual) including people who fall anywhere on the gender spectrum related by the other chart.

I actually do know a person who on this set of charts would be a 0,0,100,100. (Maybe not that extreme in the corners, but that's the general area.) They are agender and pansexual.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 03:39:09 PM
Here's another really good chart to help you understand.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13179452_1729506410598860_1671504373084117367_n.png?oh=c4274aade158c1d97b3148321e6bc180&oe=57A2D6E2)
You are picking the wrong fight.

This one really was from Facebook.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 03:57:57 PM
Yeah, the 3rd dimension would be in and out of the paper and the fourth dimension would be another dimension. (I guess time if you are trying to relate this 4D chart to the real 3 dimensional world; but actually these are just 4 dimensions that really have nothing to do with the 4 dimensions we are perceiving like height, width, depth, and time.)

I do not think the percentage on that chart really has to do with what percentage of your hook ups are with the same or opposite sex. You could feel a strong attraction to women and a small (but still there) attraction to men. On a far corner (0,0) you might have no sexual attractions at all (asexual) and on the opposite corner (100,100) you would be attracted to all genders (pansexual) including people who fall anywhere on the gender spectrum related by the other chart.

I actually do know a person who on this set of charts would be a 0,0,100,100. (Maybe not that extreme in the corners, but that's the general area.) They are agender and pansexual.
Yes, again I realize the percentage does not represent anything concrete.  I was trying to demonstrate that a gradient of being attracted to a sex, gender(?) is a fallacy.  There may be times where someone may find themselves attracted to one they would not normally be.  But that is most likely an acute event and dictated by temporary emotional state, booze, a certain individual, whatever, and not fundamentally part of their nature.  Strong attraction/Mild attraction - these are ways to describe libido, not orientation.

0,0 100,100 sounds like a extremely rare and wonderful individual indeed. And one that would still fit in the model i describe above.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 03:59:25 PM
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 04:04:00 PM
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
0% and 100% are still percentages.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 04:09:05 PM
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
0% and 100% are still percentages.

yes.  that was partially my point.  but even the example (below) you outlined supports non-absolute percentages.

Quote
There may be times where someone may find themselves attracted to one they would not normally be.  But that is most likely an acute event and dictated by temporary emotional state, booze, a certain individual, whatever, and not fundamentally part of their nature.

you can qualitatively call the % of less frequent attractions temporary or aberrant or whatever you want, but quantitatively you have x % attractions to one sex and 100-x % attractions to the other sex.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 04:21:24 PM
you can put a % on anything, fedor.
0% and 100% are still percentages.

yes.  that was partially my point.  but even the example (below) you outlined supports non-absolute percentages.

Quote
There may be times where someone may find themselves attracted to one they would not normally be.  But that is most likely an acute event and dictated by temporary emotional state, booze, a certain individual, whatever, and not fundamentally part of their nature.

you can qualitatively call the % of less frequent attractions temporary or aberrant or whatever you want, but quantitatively you have x % attractions to one sex and 100-x % attractions to the other sex.
We are complicated sacks of mush with hundreds of chemicals, hormones and substances of all kinds somehow kept in careful balance.  I said above nature is not perfect, if for a billionth of their time on this planet a person likes the look of the bloke sitting across from them, are they some tiny percentage gay? I don't think so. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 04:25:05 PM
We are complicated sacks of mush with hundreds of chemicals, hormones and substances of all kinds somehow kept in careful balance.  I said above nature is not perfect, if for a billionth of their time on this planet a person likes the look of the bloke sitting across from them, are they some tiny percentage gay? I don't think so. 
A friend described

you can call them x % perfect and 100 - x % imperfect instead of x % heterosexual and 100- x % homosexual if you want.  the data remain the same.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 04:44:50 PM
We are complicated sacks of mush with hundreds of chemicals, hormones and substances of all kinds somehow kept in careful balance.  I said above nature is not perfect, if for a billionth of their time on this planet a person likes the look of the bloke sitting across from them, are they some tiny percentage gay? I don't think so. 
A friend described

you can call them x % perfect and 100 - x % imperfect instead of x % heterosexual and 100- x % homosexual if you want.  the data remain the same.
Are you positing that no one is 100% or merely hammering home the rather insignificant point that it is possible to be <100%, =/=0 or =/=100, >0%?  If so, conceded. 
   
Two people get hammered and decide to "experiment", there was no attraction involved and they regretted the act afterward, still perfect?
A mentor relationship, where the mentee(?) feels such admiration for the mentor it briefly feels like attraction, but later the mentee realizes the emotion was unfamiliar and was characterized incorrectly.  Still perfect?   
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 04:48:55 PM
Are you merely hammering home the rather insignificant point that it is possible to be <100%, =/=0 or =/=100, >0%?  If so, conceded. 

i thought your whole argument was that it was stupid to express sexual preference as a %.  so yes, my whole point was that it isn't stupid to do so.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 05:00:07 PM
It's absurd to think attraction can even be close to binary.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 05:00:49 PM
Are you merely hammering home the rather insignificant point that it is possible to be <100%, =/=0 or =/=100, >0%?  If so, conceded. 

i thought your whole argument was that it was stupid to express sexual preference as a %.  so yes, my whole point was that it isn't stupid to do so.
Hmmm... This is a distribution with 99% of the population above the 99% mark, 0.9% below the 1% mark and the remaining 0.1% distributed across the remainder.*  Is a percentage  the best or even an appropriate way to present this information?

*numbers are made up but not terribly out of line.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 05:06:01 PM
I don't think that 99% of the population is actually at the 99+%. I am straight but I still wouldn't consider myself all the way at 99%.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 05:08:18 PM
Hmmm... This is a distribution with 99% of the population above the 99% mark, 0.9% below the 1% mark and the remaining 0.1% distributed across the remainder.*  Is a percentage  the best or even an appropriate way to present this information?

*numbers are made up but not terribly out of line.

the distribution of the data doesn't need to be normal for it to be appropriate to express the data as a percentage.


btw, i think your made up data are significantly off, but there's no question that the vast majority would cluster at 100% or close to it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 06:00:57 PM
Probably around 90
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 06:04:31 PM
Probably around 90

90% above 99% or 99% above 90%?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 06:06:00 PM
The cluster
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 06:11:13 PM
so 90% above 90%.  i think it'd be tighter than that.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 06:40:31 PM
I don't think that 99% of the population is actually at the 99+%. I am straight but I still wouldn't consider myself all the way at 99%.
Well, I guess crap is about to get real, but the second situation above is mine and other than that I am 100%.  Of course there is no way to verify but I think that most (nearly all) people would also place themselves at this level. Conversely, I believe they would mistakenly place others percentage much lower because they know this to be true. 

I know this is a pipe dream but, eff, can we please make our decisions and form our opinions based on data and not emotion?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 06:41:44 PM
Ha!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 06:42:18 PM
so 90% above 90%.  i think it'd be tighter than that.
Oh, yeah way tighter.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 06:43:42 PM
Ha!
You liked that one huh?  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 06:45:52 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 06:46:16 PM
It's absurd to think attraction can even be close to binary.
Already disproved by all who have posted itt.  What is your % mich?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 06:48:51 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.

i think an overwhelming majority of males are 100% or very close to it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 06:50:09 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.
That is what I am saying, you know that there is a spectrum and lots of people are <<100% because that is the right thing to do, but...
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 06:50:43 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.

i think an overwheming majority of males are 100% or very close to it.

I knew you wouldn't admit it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.
That is what I am saying, you know that there is a spectrum and lots of people are <<100% because that is the right thing to do, but...

I don't know what you mean by that? It is the right thing to do to think everyone is a little gay?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 06:53:40 PM
i didn't say anything about myself.  data suggest that human males have much more fixed sexual attractions than do human females.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: puniraptor on May 06, 2016, 06:55:55 PM
Sugar is obviously what cancels salt out.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 06:57:38 PM
i didn't say anything about myself.  data suggest that human males have much more fixed sexual attractions than do human females.

That was just a little joke.
I think there is much more stigma in society to men admitting they are gay or bi than women. For this reason men may be conditioned to never act on or explore any slight gay tendencies.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 06:58:15 PM
Sugar is obviously what cancels salt out.

Good to know.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 06:58:46 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.

i think an overwhelming majority of males are 100% or very close to it.
Is an overwhelming majority being defined as over 68%?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:00:33 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.
That is what I am saying, you know that there is a spectrum and lots of people are <<100% because that is the right thing to do, but...

I don't know what you mean by that? It is the right thing to do to think everyone is a little gay?
No, it is the right thing to do to believe there is a spectrum and people are naturally distributed along it.  All orientations are part of the spectrum and not a result of genetic defects, mental illness, personality disorders, personal choice or other unknown reasons...  Essentially to normalize all choices in gender and orientation.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 07:02:08 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 07:04:41 PM
If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:06:20 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.

i think an overwhelming majority of males are 100% or very close to it.
Is an overwhelming majority being defined as over 68%?
Link?, Queercity.com says it is only 51%, but maybe your research is more rigorous?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 07:07:18 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.

He's saying it's a bunch of libturd applesauce and you only think there is a spectrum because it gives you the libturd feel goods
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 07:08:13 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.

He's saying it's a bunch of libturd applesauce and you only think there is a spectrum because it gives you the libturd feel goods

Yeah I think you summarized his argument properly.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 07:08:44 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.

He's saying it's a bunch of libturd applesauce and you only think there is a spectrum because it gives you the libturd feel goods

Also if you aren't 100 percent gay or straight that you are mentally defective
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:09:07 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:11:10 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.

He's saying it's a bunch of libturd applesauce and you only think there is a spectrum because it gives you the libturd feel goods

Also if you aren't 100 percent gay or straight that you are mentally defective
nope...  run along lib, you are not capable of participating here.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 07:16:50 PM
Is an overwhelming majority being defined as over 68%?

i was thinking more like 90% above 99%ish.  post your data, please.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:19:13 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.

i think an overwhelming majority of males are 100% or very close to it.
Is an overwhelming majority being defined as over 68%?
Link?, Queercity.com says it is only 51%, but maybe your research is more rigorous?
No Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!), I am asking sys how he defines "overwhelming majority". Is it 95% 99% 51%? 50.1%?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:19:53 PM
I can follow what sys and Mrs. Gooch are saying but cannot follow what Fedor is doing. Oh well.

He's saying it's a bunch of libturd applesauce and you only think there is a spectrum because it gives you the libturd feel goods

Yeah I think you summarized his argument properly.
I'm am sure I came across more harshly than I intended.  Lib, don't be so binary bro!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 07:20:35 PM
I think there is much more stigma in society to men admitting they are gay or bi than women. For this reason men may be conditioned to never act on or explore any slight gay tendencies.

i think it is more biology, not culture.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:21:57 PM
Is an overwhelming majority being defined as over 68%?

i was thinking more like 90% above 99%ish.  post your data, please.
What data?  You're the one making a statement, I am trying to parse it.  For all I know I could agree with you.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:23:30 PM
I think a lot of people wouldn't admit to being below 100% but they actually are.

i think an overwhelming majority of males are 100% or very close to it.
Is an overwhelming majority being defined as over 68%?
Link?, Queercity.com says it is only 51%, but maybe your research is more rigorous?
No Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!), I am asking sys how he defines "overwhelming majority". Is it 95% 99% 51%? 50.1%?
And you picked 68% out of thin air?  Interesting.  Why the ad hominim, Chings?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 07:25:45 PM
i thought you were setting up a post to introduce a study that would include a 68% data point.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 07:27:12 PM
If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
I think it would take a lot less than that to be less than 100%. Just being aroused by seeing or thinking about a BJ makes you less than 100% IMO.

But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:28:13 PM
i thought you were setting up a post to introduce a study that would include a 68% data point.
He was and now we ruined it.  Poor Chings.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:31:50 PM
i thought you were setting up a post to introduce a study that would include a 68% data point.
No, just curious about what an "overwhelming majority" would be in the gedanken study you are discussing. I just threw out being within one standard deviation (assuming normal distribution, which admittedly is probably unfounded to do).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 07:34:51 PM
If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
I think it would take a lot less than that to be less than 100%. Just being aroused by seeing or thinking about a BJ makes you less than 100% IMO.

But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.

Yeah I was just giving one example.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:35:47 PM
If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
I think it would take a lot less than that to be less than 100%. Just being aroused by seeing or thinking about a BJ makes you less than 100% IMO.

But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.
It is the sex act and your imagination placing yourself in that situation that is arousing not the other guy's wiener, good grief.

What is your percentage Mich?  Feeling attracted to another man, not your weird redefining to suit your own purposes.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 07:37:20 PM
But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.

it's really not that complex, michigancat.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 07:37:57 PM


If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
I think it would take a lot less than that to be less than 100%. Just being aroused by seeing or thinking about a BJ makes you less than 100% IMO.

But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.
It is the sex act and your imagination placing yourself in that situation that is arousing not the other guy's wiener, good grief.

Yes, but a male could easily be performing the sex act that arouses you. And you might not even realize it!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:38:33 PM
How is this percentage even defined?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 07:42:46 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:44:49 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
That makes sense.  I was worried it would be something stupid like divided by total time.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:47:08 PM
How is this percentage even defined?
sys covered it, and I mumped it up anyway.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 07:48:23 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.

No I do not think it is limited to your actual IRL interactions.  You do not have to eff 1 person of the same sex and 19 of the opposite sex to get a 95%.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:49:51 PM
[vine][/vine]
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.

No I do not think it is limited to your actual IRL interactions.  You do not have to eff 1 person of the same sex and 19 of the opposite sex to get a 95%.
It is attractions, not acts.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 07:50:33 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 07:51:12 PM
How is this percentage even defined?
sys covered it, and I mumped it up anyway.

No in my dream example that wasn't even an IRL attraction to a real actual person.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:51:27 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
At what point in time? Do you suspect this is a static quantity?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:52:25 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?
would that be asexual?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:54:05 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
At what point in time? Do you suspect this is a static quantity?
Total  in lifetime.  Would increase with time, rate would depend on libido.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 07:55:24 PM
What if a male is attracted to a female with traditionally defined masculine characteristics? Half a point?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 07:56:34 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?
would that be asexual?

Asexual means you are not attracted to anyone. That is not what mich is saying.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 07:58:29 PM
What if a male is attracted to a female with traditionally defined masculine characteristics? Half a point?
He knows she is a woman? Full point.
I am partial to athletically built women, still the female form tho.  100%er.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 07:59:01 PM
What about people you are attracted to but wouldn't necessarily want to have a sexual experience with?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 07:59:50 PM
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?

of course.  that is really a stupid question, i'm afraid to have to say.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:00:37 PM
What if a male is attracted to a female with traditionally defined masculine characteristics? Half a point?
He knows she is a woman? Full point.
I am partial to athletically built women, still the female form tho.  100%er.
What if he doesn't know?  I doubt you get to generally do a genital check on people you see in public.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:02:04 PM
How is this percentage even defined?

# of sexual attractions to the subject of interest/total # of sexual attractions x 100.
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?
would that be asexual?

Asexual means you are not attracted to anyone. That is not what mich is saying.
so theoretically you are dividing 0 by 0. For the purposed of this "study" those results are excluded.
Are you ready to divulge your %age yet mich?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:02:45 PM
What if a male is attracted to a female with traditionally defined masculine characteristics? Half a point?

that is a good question.  i could probably be argued in either direction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:04:01 PM
What if a male is attracted to a female with traditionally defined masculine characteristics? Half a point?
He knows she is a woman? Full point.
I am partial to athletically built women, still the female form tho.  100%er.
What if he doesn't know?  I doubt you get to generally do a genital check on people you see in public.
So he gets to decide the biological sex in his own mind?  I think you have your answer.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:05:46 PM
What if a male is attracted to a female with traditionally defined masculine characteristics? Half a point?

that is a good question.  i could probably be argued in either direction.
Wait, you mean with a penis?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 08:05:48 PM
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?

of course.  that is really a stupid question, i'm afraid to have to say.
Well then you did a shitty job defining your percentage.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:06:25 PM
No in my dream example that wasn't even an IRL attraction to a real actual person.

you could include or exclude dreams.  as long as you're consistent, it doesn't matter much.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:08:44 PM
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?

of course.  that is really a stupid question, i'm afraid to have to say.
Well then you did a shitty job defining your percentage.
you rubes need to ante up and quit trying to poke holes in the "methodology" of the "study".
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:09:30 PM
I guess science isn't your forte.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:10:08 PM
Could you be 100% if there are any members of the opposite sex that you don't find sexually attractive?

of course.  that is really a stupid question, i'm afraid to have to say.
Well then you did a shitty job defining your percentage.

i'm sorry, but no, that's not it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 06, 2016, 08:11:00 PM
No in my dream example that wasn't even an IRL attraction to a real actual person.

you could include or exclude dreams.  as long as you're consistent, it doesn't matter much.

If you have had 1000 hot gay full penetration dreams that you enjoyed and still say you are 100% heterosexual,  I won't believe you.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:12:51 PM
I guess science isn't your forte.
I science very well thank you.  Can I put you down for 99+%, then?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:15:23 PM
No in my dream example that wasn't even an IRL attraction to a real actual person.

you could include or exclude dreams.  as long as you're consistent, it doesn't matter much.

If you have had 1000 hot gay full penetration dreams that you enjoyed and still say you are 100% heterosexual,  I won't believe you.
Agreed, you have to include dreams... 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:16:37 PM
I guess science isn't your forte.
I science very well thank you.  Can I put you down for 99+%, then?
I have my doubts you do.  You might engineer well though. 

You can not put me down for 99%+.   
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:20:13 PM
Is the Fedor-sys hypothesis that at least 99% of men would score at least 99% on your test? Where 100% on the test means you are only attracted to exclusively men or women?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:24:38 PM
If you have had 1000 hot gay full penetration dreams that you enjoyed and still say you are 100% heterosexual,  I won't believe you.

if you told me a man had experienced a thousand hot gay full penetration dreams and never experienced a waking homosexual attraction, i would find that difficult to believe as well.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:26:59 PM
Is the Fedor-sys hypothesis that at least 99% of men would score at least 99% on your test? Where 100% on the test means you are only attracted to exclusively men or women?
99% is too high. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:33:06 PM
See this is why I keep asking for definitions.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:34:07 PM
See this is why I keep asking for definitions.
Ask away, science guy.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:35:06 PM
Is the Fedor-sys hypothesis that at least 99% of men would score at least 99% on your test? Where 100% on the test means you are only attracted to exclusively men or women?

i think fedor did state that back in the beginning, but not for just men.  i said 90/99.  that's not necessarily my best guess, though.  more of my price-is-right rules guess.  also it would be my dreams excluded guess.  i'd maybe want something more like 90/98 for dreams inclusive.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:38:38 PM
Do you suspect this is a static quantity?

skipped this originally.  i suspect that it is pretty stable for most people (overwhelming maj).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 8manpick on May 06, 2016, 08:38:39 PM
It's a pretty common fallacy to assume that because the last thing that tried to gain social acceptance deserved social acceptance that the next thing trying to gain social acceptance must also deserve it. Change isn't necessarily good, there's good change and bad change. The important thing is that you examine things critically; don't abandon your old ideas too easily, but don't blindly cling to them either.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:39:46 PM
Do you suspect this is a static quantity?

skipped this originally.  i suspect that it is pretty stable for most people (overwhelming maj).
:dubious:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 08:40:44 PM
Is the Fedor-sys hypothesis that at least 99% of men would score at least 99% on your test? Where 100% on the test means you are only attracted to exclusively men or women?

i think fedor did state that back in the beginning, but not for just men.  i said 90/99.  that's not necessarily my best guess, though.  more of my price-is-right rules guess.  also it would be my dreams excluded guess.  i'd maybe want something more like 90/98 for dreams inclusive.
I was  thinking 95/95 but if we are to be paired up I would defer to sys.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 08:45:21 PM
:dubious:

precision demands data.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 08:53:05 PM
:dubious:

precision demands data.

I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.   I mean you could be right, but it's hard to know when you are vague. I could say:
An egg is one of the biggest objects in the Universe, but its not clear how I am defining biggest.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 09:03:48 PM
:dubious:

precision demands data.

I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.   I mean you could be right, but it's hard to know when you are vague. I could say:
An egg is one of the biggest objects in the Universe, but its not clear how I am defining biggest.
So....see you in a couple years or are you going to statistically analyze studies already performed.  if it is the latter, don't bother.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 09:08:43 PM
Neither.  I don't have the vested interest in this particular topic as you do.  I just wanted to understand you.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 09:09:21 PM
I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.

i don't believe i've changed definitions even once.  and i'm not a big fan of hypothesis testing.  popper was an idiot.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 09:12:13 PM
Neither.  I don't have the vested interest in this particular topic as you do.  I just wanted to understand you.
So can declare victory and move on...kthanxbai.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 09:13:35 PM
I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.

i don't believe i've changed definitions even once.  and i'm not a big fan of hypothesis testing.  popper was an idiot.
You haven't changed, wasn't trying to imply you have, but that you might.

I like measuring and comparing.



Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 09:15:22 PM
I like measuring and comparing.

me too.  i hate imposing a priori hypotheses on exploratory research.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 09:21:19 PM
I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.

i don't believe i've changed definitions even once.  and i'm not a big fan of hypothesis testing.  popper was an idiot.
You haven't changed, wasn't trying to imply you have, but that you might.

I like measuring and comparing.
so 95%?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 09:27:10 PM
I like measuring and comparing.

me too.  i hate imposing a priori hypotheses on exploratory research.
I see, and don't disagree.  It can be damaging to do so.

I am not sure this is exploratory research, but that's another discussion probably.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 09:28:58 PM
I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.

i don't believe i've changed definitions even once.  and i'm not a big fan of hypothesis testing.  popper was an idiot.
You haven't changed, wasn't trying to imply you have, but that you might.

I like measuring and comparing.
so 95%?
Could be, I don't know. I haven't been counting. If you makes you feel better you can make it any % you want though.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 09:29:38 PM
I am not sure this is exploratory research.

probably not.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: BrokenSky1113 on May 06, 2016, 09:40:56 PM
If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
I think it would take a lot less than that to be less than 100%. Just being aroused by seeing or thinking about a BJ makes you less than 100% IMO.

But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.

No way you can hold people responsiable for what they dream. A vast majority of people just dream random stuff.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 09:46:25 PM
I just want to know how I could hypothetically test your claim without you changing definitions half-way through.

i don't believe i've changed definitions even once.  and i'm not a big fan of hypothesis testing.  popper was an idiot.
You haven't changed, wasn't trying to imply you have, but that you might.

I like measuring and comparing.
so 95%?
Could be, I don't know. I haven't been counting. If you makes you feel better you can make it any % you want though.
You are probably more emotional about this than I am. As evidenced by your lying.  Of course you know.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 09:53:01 PM


If you ever had a dream that you were getting a BJ and you look down to see that it is a guy giving it......then you are less than 100%. IMO.
I think it would take a lot less than that to be less than 100%. Just being aroused by seeing or thinking about a BJ makes you less than 100% IMO.

But really, even a spectrum based on percentages is a far too simplistic way to define sexual attraction.

No way you can hold people responsiable for what they dream. A vast majority of people just dream random stuff.

You can't really control attraction, either, can you? So it seems like dreams could be a useful set of data.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 09:54:04 PM
Look you are clearly upset so I will let you mark me down as 91.74% 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 09:58:00 PM
Look you are clearly upset so I will let you mark me down as 91.74%
You are obviously a terrible scientist.  The results are contrary to previously held belief so you are rejecting them.  Your "response" is close enough to the truth,but also well below the hypothesis so as not to confirm.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:00:55 PM
Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:02:01 PM
Look you are clearly upset so I will let you mark me down as 91.74%
You are obviously a terrible scientist.  The results are contrary to previously held belief so you are rejecting them.  Your "response" is close enough to the truth,but also well below the hypothesis so as not to confirm.
Where are these results you speak of?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 10:04:17 PM
Look you are clearly upset so I will let you mark me down as 91.74%
You are obviously a terrible scientist.  The results are contrary to previously held belief so you are rejecting them.  Your "response" is close enough to the truth,but also well below the hypothesis so as not to confirm.
I am taking this very seriously. I will rerun the numbers if it will help.  Hold on while I consult the logs.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:04:53 PM
Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?
He is likely forcing himself to act the part without any real attraction to his wife.  It is possible to perform the sexual act if stimulated even by someone you are not attracted to.  The potential remains to be 0%.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 10:08:11 PM
Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?

you are really bad at this thread.

in the absence of any other relevant info i'd place them on the mean % for adult male homosexuals, whatever it is.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:08:29 PM


Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?
He is likely forcing himself to act the part without any real attraction to his wife.  It is possible to perform the sexual act if stimulated even by someone you are not attracted to.  The potential remains to be 0%.

"real" attraction? How is this defined? At what point does "performing the sexual act" transition to "real attraction"?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:08:45 PM
Look you are clearly upset so I will let you mark me down as 91.74%
You are obviously a terrible scientist.  The results are contrary to previously held belief so you are rejecting them.  Your "response" is close enough to the truth,but also well below the hypothesis so as not to confirm.
Where are these results you speak of?
Chings personal percentage.  I realize for some this is unfair, I think I should quit asking and putting people on the spot.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 10:10:29 PM
At what point does "performing the sexual act" transition to "real attraction"?

it does not follow from the act of masturbation that one is attracted to hands.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:11:54 PM


Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?
He is likely forcing himself to act the part without any real attraction to his wife.  It is possible to perform the sexual act if stimulated even by someone you are not attracted to.  The potential remains to be 0%.

"real" attraction? How is this defined? At what point does "performing the sexual act" transition to "real attraction"?
Refer to sys.  your line of questioning is pointless.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 06, 2016, 10:12:53 PM
Look you are clearly upset so I will let you mark me down as 91.74%
You are obviously a terrible scientist.  The results are contrary to previously held belief so you are rejecting them.  Your "response" is close enough to the truth,but also well below the hypothesis so as not to confirm.
Where are these results you speak of?
Chings personal percentage.  I realize for some this is unfair, I think I should quit asking and putting people on the spot.
Oh God it turns out I skipped over the counts from 2002. How embarrassing....now the % is 93.04. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:13:50 PM
Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?

you are really bad at this thread.

in the absence of any other relevant info i'd place them on the mean % for adult male homosexuals, whatever it is.
We're probably closer in our theories than you are insinuating. I just think you oversimplify the spectrum which leads to your over-clumping around 100%. I think the males would be centered around 90%. But I don't think many at that spot of the spectrum would ever consider actually performing a homosexual act.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 10:21:59 PM
We're probably closer in our theories than you are insinuating. I just think you oversimplify the spectrum which leads to your over-clumping around 100%. I think the males would be centered around 90%. But I don't think many at that spot of the spectrum would ever consider actually performing a homosexual act.

i was not insinuating that you and i hold widely divergent guesses on the homogeneity of male sexual attraction (although if you actually think the median would be around 90% homogeneous, then we do).  i'm stating that you have pursued some weird and illogical lines of thought in this thread.  mostly your question regarding the categorization of someone not attracted to all members of the sex they are attracted to, though some of your others are also a bit wtfish.  is your definition of a vegetarian someone that likes all vegetables?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:23:35 PM
Where would a closeted homosexual male who marries a woman and raises a family fall on the spectrum?

you are really bad at this thread.

in the absence of any other relevant info i'd place them on the mean % for adult male homosexuals, whatever it is.
We're probably closer in our theories than you are insinuating. I just think you oversimplify the spectrum which leads to your over-clumping around 100%. I think the males would be centered around 90%. But I don't think many at that spot of the spectrum would ever consider actually performing a homosexual act.
You over complicate the spectrum, despite your efforts you have yet to bring up a situation not easily explained away.  Why 90%? It just feels better to you?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: renocat on May 06, 2016, 10:24:11 PM
Where do you put habitual masturbators on this scale?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:26:15 PM
Where do you put habitual masturbators on this scale?
at the mean.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:34:35 PM


At what point does "performing the sexual act" transition to "real attraction"?

it does not follow from the act of masturbation that one is attracted to hands.

But there is a high likelihood that you would be attracted to someone performing a similar act with their hands without knowing whether those hands were male or female. And having a hand is not the same as selecting a spouse.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:36:19 PM


We're probably closer in our theories than you are insinuating. I just think you oversimplify the spectrum which leads to your over-clumping around 100%. I think the males would be centered around 90%. But I don't think many at that spot of the spectrum would ever consider actually performing a homosexual act.

i was not insinuating that you and i hold widely divergent guesses on the homogeneity of male sexual attraction (although if you actually think the median would be around 90% homogeneous, then we do).  i'm stating that you have pursued some weird and illogical lines of thought in this thread.  mostly your question regarding the categorization of someone not attracted to all members of the sex they are attracted to, though some of your others are also a bit wtfish.  is your definition of a vegetarian someone that likes all vegetables?

Reread how you defined the percentage
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 10:37:14 PM
there is a high likelihood that you would be attracted to someone performing a similar act with their hands without knowing whether those hands were male or female.

i'm starting to wonder if you understand what is meant by the term sexual attraction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:40:21 PM
there is a high likelihood that you would be attracted to someone performing a similar act with their hands without knowing whether those hands were male or female.

i'm starting to wonder if you understand what is meant by the term sexual attraction.
Yeah, this is getting weird.  And that is saying something in this thread.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 10:41:19 PM
there is a high likelihood that you would be attracted to someone performing a similar act with their hands without knowing whether those hands were male or female.

i'm starting to wonder if you understand what is meant by the term sexual attraction.
Define it
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 10:42:36 PM
Reread how you defined the percentage

was this whole thing a convoluted way of arguing that i should have used object rather than subject?  i had object originally then changed it, figuring that it was an equation, not a sentence.  that may have been wrong, but it doesn't change the meaning of the equation, it just makes it poorly worded.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 10:44:43 PM
Define it

attraction, sexual.  not synonymous with sexual stimulation.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 06, 2016, 10:48:16 PM
Well fellas, it is getting late in the CST. Mich, if you had a point you would have stumbled onto it by accident by now.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 11:06:25 PM
Define it

attraction, sexual.  not synonymous with sexual stimulation.
Thinking of or witnessing acts of sexual stimulation is often an important aspect of sexual attraction. Trying to disconnect the two is virtually impossible.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 11:10:54 PM
people (humans) aren't attracted to sexual acts.  they may be stimulated by them, but they aren't attracted to the acts themselves.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 11:16:36 PM
people (humans) aren't attracted to sexual acts.  they may be stimulated by them, but they aren't attracted to the acts themselves.

People are absolutely aroused by witnessing or thinking of sexual acts. Do you separate arousal from attraction? Or do you disagree with my first sentence?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 06, 2016, 11:19:00 PM
people (humans) aren't attracted to sexual acts.  they may be stimulated by them, but they aren't attracted to the acts themselves.

Isn't this kind of where fetishism falls?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 11:20:16 PM
People are absolutely aroused by witnessing or thinking of sexual acts. Do you separate arousal from attraction? Or do you disagree with my first sentence?

yes, different, obviously.  arousal = stimulation not attraction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 11:23:31 PM
people (humans) aren't attracted to sexual acts.  they may be stimulated by them, but they aren't attracted to the acts themselves.

Isn't this kind of where fetishism falls?

i don't think so, no.  although perhaps with some of the most extreme forms. it might be close.  but with common fetish stuff (feet, leather, dunno) it's just the preferred stimulation with a person they are attracted to.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 06, 2016, 11:24:18 PM


People are absolutely aroused by witnessing or thinking of sexual acts. Do you separate arousal from attraction? Or do you disagree with my first sentence?

yes, different, obviously.  arousal = stimulation not attraction.

lol, ok sys
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 06, 2016, 11:59:25 PM
like, you are the only person in the thread that finds the distinction confusing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2016, 12:27:26 AM
like, you are the only person in the thread that finds the distinction confusing.
I'm honestly assuming you're trolling at this point. I can't believe you are this simple minded.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 07, 2016, 01:08:10 AM
like, you are the only person in the thread that finds the distinction confusing.
I'm honestly assuming you're trolling at this point. I can't believe you are this simple minded.

i'm pretty much at the same point with you.  "do i love rough ridin' or do i love my wife? - aah i can't tell, they all run together".  gmafb.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: stunted on May 07, 2016, 01:10:36 AM
all this spectrum talk and apparently racism is binary
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2016, 01:27:32 AM
all this spectrum talk and apparently racism is binary

there is definitely a racism spectrum
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2016, 01:38:32 AM
like, you are the only person in the thread that finds the distinction confusing.
I'm honestly assuming you're trolling at this point. I can't believe you are this simple minded.

i'm pretty much at the same point with you.  "do i love rough ridin' or do i love my wife? - aah i can't tell, they all run together".  gmafb.

It will never be a perfect correlation, but feeling love for someone can enhance arousal/sexual stimulation and arousal/sexual stimulation can enhance feelings of love. So can how sleepy a person is, what shirt someone's wearing, the weather, what's playing on the radio, or any infinite number of inputs that the brain processes. (There are also instances where sexual arousal does not affect love or affection and vice versa.)

Your attempts to try to classify human arousals/urges/wants/needs/emotions into tidy distinct segments is somewhat ironically overcomplicating things. Accept the complexity.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 07, 2016, 02:16:31 AM
fedor, many posts ago, was right.  probably wasn't directly addressing you, but addressed this confusion.  you are confusing libedo with attraction.  not to mention confusing attraction with arousal.  you're like newton, hit on the head with an apple and throwing up your hands exclaiming - "there's mass, distance, acceleration, friction, wind, the tensile strength of green apple stems, not to mention whether i'm awake enough to roll out of the way of falling objects - falling apples, another of the world's complex and unsolvable mysteries."
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on May 07, 2016, 02:38:07 AM
Turns out Frodor is kind of a faggins... and that's OK! :billdance:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 07, 2016, 09:15:12 AM


fedor, many posts ago, was right.  probably wasn't directly addressing you, but addressed this confusion.  you are confusing libedo with attraction.  not to mention confusing attraction with arousal.  you're like newton, hit on the head with an apple and throwing up your hands exclaiming - "there's mass, distance, acceleration, friction, wind, the tensile strength of green apple stems, not to mention whether i'm awake enough to roll out of the way of falling objects - falling apples, another of the world's complex and unsolvable mysteries."

Do you think your line if thinking is on the path to defining laws of sexual attraction between humans, much like Newton with attraction between masses?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 07, 2016, 08:54:01 PM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 08, 2016, 12:35:10 PM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..

Yeah, I've definitely done a poor job explaining myself if you think the issues you're citing are closely related to my general point. The sexless hand and being unsure of the sexual identity of someone are pretty much irrelevant to me - they were just attempts at understanding where different types of attraction fell on the spectrum and sent us off the rails.

The main point I am trying to convey is that sexual attraction is not binary. I recognize that you are attempting to make it binary in order to define data and can see some value in that. But in order to create a binary data point, you first need to clearly define what constitutes "sexual attraction", and I haven't seen that definition from either you or Fedor. With a clearly defined point of what constitutes "sexual attraction", I think we could understand each other better.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 08:33:26 AM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..

Yeah, I've definitely done a poor job explaining myself if you think the issues you're citing are closely related to my general point. The sexless hand and being unsure of the sexual identity of someone are pretty much irrelevant to me - they were just attempts at understanding where different types of attraction fell on the spectrum and sent us off the rails.

The main point I am trying to convey is that sexual attraction is not binary. I recognize that you are attempting to make it binary in order to define data and can see some value in that. But in order to create a binary data point, you first need to clearly define what constitutes "sexual attraction", and I haven't seen that definition from either you or Fedor. With a clearly defined point of what constitutes "sexual attraction", I think we could understand each other better.
It may be more productive for you to propose your own definition and we can modify as necessary.  I don't relish the thought of chasing your alien hipster brain around trying to find wording that you find acceptable.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 09:00:18 AM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..

Yeah, I've definitely done a poor job explaining myself if you think the issues you're citing are closely related to my general point. The sexless hand and being unsure of the sexual identity of someone are pretty much irrelevant to me - they were just attempts at understanding where different types of attraction fell on the spectrum and sent us off the rails.

The main point I am trying to convey is that sexual attraction is not binary. I recognize that you are attempting to make it binary in order to define data and can see some value in that. But in order to create a binary data point, you first need to clearly define what constitutes "sexual attraction", and I haven't seen that definition from either you or Fedor. With a clearly defined point of what constitutes "sexual attraction", I think we could understand each other better.
It may be more productive for you to propose your own definition and we can modify as necessary.  I don't relish the thought of chasing your alien hipster brain around trying to find wording that you find acceptable.
I'm just trying to understand your fixed definition of sexual attraction that can be used to classify it in a binary format. There's nothing to approve or reject - creating a fixed definition  helps us understand each other better.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 01:17:06 PM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..

Yeah, I've definitely done a poor job explaining myself if you think the issues you're citing are closely related to my general point. The sexless hand and being unsure of the sexual identity of someone are pretty much irrelevant to me - they were just attempts at understanding where different types of attraction fell on the spectrum and sent us off the rails.

The main point I am trying to convey is that sexual attraction is not binary. I recognize that you are attempting to make it binary in order to define data and can see some value in that. But in order to create a binary data point, you first need to clearly define what constitutes "sexual attraction", and I haven't seen that definition from either you or Fedor. With a clearly defined point of what constitutes "sexual attraction", I think we could understand each other better.
It may be more productive for you to propose your own definition and we can modify as necessary.  I don't relish the thought of chasing your alien hipster brain around trying to find wording that you find acceptable.
I'm just trying to understand your fixed definition of sexual attraction that can be used to classify it in a binary format. There's nothing to approve or reject - creating a fixed definition  helps us understand each other better.
There are widely varying definitions all over the internet, but we can start with this one, see where it leads and modify as nec.;
Sexual attraction is an occurence where a person has a desire for sexual contact with a specific other person.

In another post you thought 90% would be closer to the average.  To put this in perspective, a 35-yr old straight person who enters puberty at 15-yrs old would have the equivalent of two years of completely gay sexual attractions, assuming a constant rate of att./yr.  Reasonable?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 09, 2016, 01:42:38 PM
I still disagree that this percentage is a percentage of the times you have been attracted to people. I feel like if you have a stronger attraction toward a gender, then your percentage is higher - not necessarily a higher number of times of actually being attracted to that gender. Also, you guys are reading the chart wrong. On one axis is heterosexual and on the other axis is homosexual. So you don't just get a single percentage where % homo + % hetero = 100%. You get a % homo and a % hetero and each of them could be anywhere from 0 to 100%.

Also, I gave that % homo/hetero chart as an example of how to characterize it, but maybe it would be better just to talk about being attracted to the different points on the gender spectrum? Because if you are not 100% male or 100% female then what constitutes homosexuality or heterosexuality might get complicated.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 02:11:22 PM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..

Yeah, I've definitely done a poor job explaining myself if you think the issues you're citing are closely related to my general point. The sexless hand and being unsure of the sexual identity of someone are pretty much irrelevant to me - they were just attempts at understanding where different types of attraction fell on the spectrum and sent us off the rails.

The main point I am trying to convey is that sexual attraction is not binary. I recognize that you are attempting to make it binary in order to define data and can see some value in that. But in order to create a binary data point, you first need to clearly define what constitutes "sexual attraction", and I haven't seen that definition from either you or Fedor. With a clearly defined point of what constitutes "sexual attraction", I think we could understand each other better.
It may be more productive for you to propose your own definition and we can modify as necessary.  I don't relish the thought of chasing your alien hipster brain around trying to find wording that you find acceptable.
I'm just trying to understand your fixed definition of sexual attraction that can be used to classify it in a binary format. There's nothing to approve or reject - creating a fixed definition  helps us understand each other better.
There are widely varying definitions all over the internet, but we can start with this one, see where it leads and modify as nec.;
Sexual attraction is an occurence where a person has a desire for sexual contact with a specific other person.

In another post you thought 90% would be closer to the average.  To put this in perspective, a 35-yr old straight person who enters puberty at 15-yrs old would have the equivalent of two years of completely gay sexual attractions, assuming a constant rate of att./yr.  Reasonable?

I don't think that's a good definition, because there are a great deal of people I would consider sexually attractive but that I would have zero desire to have sexual contact with. But yeah, if that's the definition you choose to use, I think "90% hetero, 10% homo" would be way low for heterosexual males in that case.

However, like mrs. Gooch said, I think we've been misinterpreting the spectrum chart she posted:

(http://sites.google.com/site/alexisbrookex/_/rsrc/1283948176101/sexual-orientation-spectrum/soslabel.jpg)

The chart is kind of confusing - is the percentage based on how strongly you are attracted to a gender or how many times you are attracted to a particular gender divided by the number of interactions with a particular gender? Or in your example, is it based on the amount of time you spent being attracted to a specific gender?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 09, 2016, 02:20:05 PM
My opinion is that it is how strongly you are attracted to that gender.

Here's the article that the spectrum came from. It says that most "heterosexual" or "homosexual" people are at around 70 or higher on their respective scale.

https://sites.google.com/site/alexisbrookex/sexual-orientation-spectrum

Quote
To determine your own sexual orientation, simply rate your attraction to the same sex and the opposite sex with a value from 1 to 99.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 02:43:41 PM
mcat, i honestly don't know if you're intentionally searching for ambiguity to support some mysteriously hipster ideology, irredentially (not a word, i know, don't argue about it, you know what it means) contrarian or simply an alien life form that shares so little in common with normal humans that communication difficulties are inevitable.

some of my thought process is based in studies i've seen, papers i've read, etc.  but inevitably it's chiefly based on my own personal experience.  and i can not recall an instance where i've been in doubt regarding the sexual identity of a person i've been attracted to.  it's possible, even probable, that i've been incorrect in my assumption of their sexual identity, but i cannot recall a single occasion where i've been in doubt at the time of attraction.  like your example with the anonymous, sexless hands jacking you off.  i may have led a very boring life, but that's never happened to me.  if it had, i'm almost positive i'd have no more doubt about whether i'd been attracted to those hands or merely been stimulated like a prized ropinfeet bull hauled in for harvest than i have regarding the action of gravity upon an apple.

i simply don't comprehend your professed lack of comprehension..

Yeah, I've definitely done a poor job explaining myself if you think the issues you're citing are closely related to my general point. The sexless hand and being unsure of the sexual identity of someone are pretty much irrelevant to me - they were just attempts at understanding where different types of attraction fell on the spectrum and sent us off the rails.

The main point I am trying to convey is that sexual attraction is not binary. I recognize that you are attempting to make it binary in order to define data and can see some value in that. But in order to create a binary data point, you first need to clearly define what constitutes "sexual attraction", and I haven't seen that definition from either you or Fedor. With a clearly defined point of what constitutes "sexual attraction", I think we could understand each other better.
It may be more productive for you to propose your own definition and we can modify as necessary.  I don't relish the thought of chasing your alien hipster brain around trying to find wording that you find acceptable.
I'm just trying to understand your fixed definition of sexual attraction that can be used to classify it in a binary format. There's nothing to approve or reject - creating a fixed definition  helps us understand each other better.
There are widely varying definitions all over the internet, but we can start with this one, see where it leads and modify as nec.;
Sexual attraction is an occurence where a person has a desire for sexual contact with a specific other person.

In another post you thought 90% would be closer to the average.  To put this in perspective, a 35-yr old straight person who enters puberty at 15-yrs old would have the equivalent of two years of completely gay sexual attractions, assuming a constant rate of att./yr.  Reasonable?

I don't think that's a good definition, because there are a great deal of people I would consider sexually attractive but that I would have zero desire to have sexual contact with. But yeah, if that's the definition you choose to use, I think "90% hetero, 10% homo" would be way low for heterosexual males in that case.

However, like mrs. Gooch said, I think we've been misinterpreting the spectrum chart she posted:

(http://sites.google.com/site/alexisbrookex/_/rsrc/1283948176101/sexual-orientation-spectrum/soslabel.jpg)

The chart is kind of confusing - is the percentage based on how strongly you are attracted to a gender or how many times you are attracted to a particular gender divided by the number of interactions with a particular gender? Or in your example, is it based on the amount of time you spent being attracted to a specific gender?
You are finding them aesthetically pleasing, not sexually attractive.  If you do not want to have sexual contact you are by definition not sexually attracted. 
Examples; "Bro! That dude is ripped!"
               "Look at her, Becky, she is so beautiful.  I hate her"
               "Leo DiCaprio is an extremely handsome man."

Don't get too hung up on the graphic, I left that behind long ago.  It does not  have anything to do with the hypothesis or the method to test it except that it obscures where the majority of the population falls.  But yes I agree with your assessment, it is a degree of attractiveness, not # of times or % of time spent being attracted to a gender.

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 02:52:13 PM
You are finding them aesthetically pleasing, not sexually attractive.  If you do not want to have sexual contact you are by definition not sexually attracted. 
Examples; "Bro! That dude is ripped!"
               "Look at her, Becky, she is so beautiful.  I hate her"
               "Leo DiCaprio is an extremely handsome man."

Those are all poor examples. I'm in a monogamous heterosexual relationship with no interest in pursuing sexual activity outside of that relationship. By your definition, if you showed me 100 pictures of anonymous humans I would find them all sexually unattractive and would be considered asexual on the spectrum.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:00:59 PM
Those are all poor examples. I'm in a monogamous heterosexual relationship with no interest in pursuing sexual activity outside of that relationship. By your definition, if you showed me 100 pictures of anonymous humans I would find them all sexually unattractive and would be considered asexual on the spectrum.

you really do either belong to a different species or not understand what sexual attraction is.  amazing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:02:18 PM
you don't just get a single percentage where % homo + % hetero = 100%. You get a % homo and a % hetero and each of them could be anywhere from 0 to 100%.

the system i proposed is much better.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 09, 2016, 03:08:30 PM
you don't just get a single percentage where % homo + % hetero = 100%. You get a % homo and a % hetero and each of them could be anywhere from 0 to 100%.

the system i proposed is much better.

What does an asexual person get on your scale?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 03:10:17 PM
Those are all poor examples. I'm in a monogamous heterosexual relationship with no interest in pursuing sexual activity outside of that relationship. By your definition, if you showed me 100 pictures of anonymous humans I would find them all sexually unattractive and would be considered asexual on the spectrum.

you really do either belong to a different species or not understand what sexual attraction is.  amazing.

I am working off of Fedor's definition of sexual attraction. I think I'm close to understanding his definition, but there's still some grey area I'm trying to eliminate.

I don't understand your definition of sexual attraction because you haven't defined it. You insinuate that sexual attraction is a simple yes/no classification that is universal for all humans, so it seems like that should be pretty simple for you to define. Yet you haven't.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:13:46 PM
What does an asexual person get on your scale?

no data.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 03:17:22 PM
Those are all poor examples. I'm in a monogamous heterosexual relationship with no interest in pursuing sexual activity outside of that relationship. By your definition, if you showed me 100 pictures of anonymous humans I would find them all sexually unattractive and would be considered asexual on the spectrum.

you really do either belong to a different species or not understand what sexual attraction is.  amazing.

I am working off of Fedor's definition of sexual attraction. I think I'm close to understanding his definition, but there's still some grey area I'm trying to eliminate.

I don't understand your definition of sexual attraction because you haven't defined it. You insinuate that sexual attraction is a simple yes/no classification that is universal for all humans, so it seems like that should be pretty simple for you to define. Yet you haven't.
Weren't you the person in this thread that said attraction is involuntary?

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:20:35 PM
I am working off of Fedor's definition of sexual attraction.

his definition is fine.  i'm not looking to redefine the term, any mainstream definition will do.


perhaps you're assuming a degree of intensity that is not implicit in the definition.  like you, i'm monogamous and have no intention or desire to engage in an extra-monogamous sexual encounter.  yet you estimate you experience 0/100 instances of sexual attraction.  i see people constantly that i find sexually attractive.  probably dozens/day, more if i'm in a city.

to what would you ascribe the difference?

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 03:20:43 PM
You are finding them aesthetically pleasing, not sexually attractive.  If you do not want to have sexual contact you are by definition not sexually attracted. 
Examples; "Bro! That dude is ripped!"
               "Look at her, Becky, she is so beautiful.  I hate her"
               "Leo DiCaprio is an extremely handsome man."

Those are all poor examples. I'm in a monogamous heterosexual relationship with no interest in pursuing sexual activity outside of that relationship. By your definition, if you showed me 100 pictures of anonymous humans I would find them all sexually unattractive and would be considered asexual on the spectrum.
To be clear those are examples of aesthetic attraction not sexual attraction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 09, 2016, 03:33:08 PM
I am working off of Fedor's definition of sexual attraction.

his definition is fine.  i'm not looking to redefine the term, any mainstream definition will do.


perhaps you're assuming a degree of intensity that is not implicit in the definition.  like you, i'm monogamous and have no intention or desire to engage in an extra-monogamous sexual encounter.  yet you estimate you experience 0/100 instances of sexual attraction.  i see people constantly that i find sexually attractive.  probably dozens/day, more if i'm in a city.

to what would you ascribe the difference?

I think the problem is that Fedor said if you don't actually want to have sex with them then they don't count as a sexual attraction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 03:37:46 PM
I am working off of Fedor's definition of sexual attraction.

his definition is fine.  i'm not looking to redefine the term, any mainstream definition will do.


perhaps you're assuming a degree of intensity that is not implicit in the definition.  like you, i'm monogamous and have no intention or desire to engage in an extra-monogamous sexual encounter.  yet you estimate you experience 0/100 instances of sexual attraction.  i see people constantly that i find sexually attractive.  probably dozens/day, more if i'm in a city.

to what would you ascribe the difference?



Can you choose a mainstream definition you like? It shouldn't be difficult.

I explained that I disagree with Fedor's definition because of the exact scenario you describe - like you, I definitely would consider many people sexually attractive yet have no desire to engage in an extra-monogamous sexual encounter. The difference is all in the interpretation:

Quote
Sexual attraction is an occurence where a person has a desire for sexual contact with a specific other person.

maybe if the definition included a "no negative consequences" clause we'd be closer to something I would agree with. Of course people might find members of the same sex more attractive if there were no negative cultural consequences. One's entire outlook on sexual attraction would probably change dramatically.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:38:14 PM
I think the problem is that Fedor said if you don't actually want to have sex with them then they don't count as a sexual attraction.

his definition did not state that.  i can desire sex with someone without wanting or intending to have sex with them.  just as i can desire a doughnut with my coffee, but not walk over to the break room and pick one up.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 03:41:32 PM
I am working off of Fedor's definition of sexual attraction.

his definition is fine.  i'm not looking to redefine the term, any mainstream definition will do.


perhaps you're assuming a degree of intensity that is not implicit in the definition.  like you, i'm monogamous and have no intention or desire to engage in an extra-monogamous sexual encounter.  yet you estimate you experience 0/100 instances of sexual attraction.  i see people constantly that i find sexually attractive.  probably dozens/day, more if i'm in a city.

to what would you ascribe the difference?

I think the problem is that Fedor said if you don't actually want to have sex with them then they don't count as a sexual attraction.
This is primal stuff, somewhere deep in your caveman brain there is a reaction that says "me want make boom boom with her/him".  Of course the rational part of the brain takes over and says "No, you can't do that you are married, think of the children etc.", and the urge is not acted on.  You do not have to go through the physical act to have an occurrence of sexual attraction.

I do not know how to explain this any simpler, your lack of understanding cannot be anything but willful beyond this point.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:42:06 PM
this one is the first that came up on google.  it's fine.

Quote
attraction on the basis of sexual desire or the quality of arousing such interest.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
this one is the first that came up on google.  it's fine.

Quote
attraction on the basis of sexual desire or the quality of arousing such interest.

:surprised:






(yes, I know)  :gocho:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 03:47:00 PM
although that does not seem like a very binary definition. Fedor's was much better for our discussion because it attempted to draw a clear line. Yeah, he backtracked on that clear line, but it was a pretty good attempt.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 03:55:43 PM
it is binary.  you either are or are not attracted to a person at a given point in time.  are you confused because other (internal) conditions may impact your ability to experience attraction?  confused because intensity is not part of the definition?  help me understand why you perceive these words so differently than i do.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 09, 2016, 04:01:40 PM
it is binary.  you either are or are not attracted to a person at a given point in time.  are you confused because other (internal) conditions may impact your ability to experience attraction?  confused because intensity is not part of the definition?  help me understand why you perceive these words so differently than i do.

Have you never been sort of attracted to someone or more attracted to one person than another (while still being attracted to the less attractive person)? There are definitely degrees of attraction.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 09, 2016, 04:03:23 PM
it is binary.  you either are or are not attracted to a person at a given point in time.  are you confused because other (internal) conditions may impact your ability to experience attraction?  confused because intensity is not part of the definition?  help me understand why you perceive these words so differently than i do.

Have you never been sort of attracted to someone or more attracted to one person than another (while still being attracted to the less attractive person)? There are definitely degrees of attraction.
2 occurrences, intensity does not matter.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 04:04:50 PM
Have you never been sort of attracted to someone or more attracted to one person than another (while still being attracted to the less attractive person)? There are definitely degrees of attraction.

of course different intensity of attraction is possible.  i was asking if that was what was confusing michigancat.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 04:13:15 PM
it is binary.  you either are or are not attracted to a person at a given point in time.  are you confused because other (internal) conditions may impact your ability to experience attraction?  confused because intensity is not part of the definition?  help me understand why you perceive these words so differently than i do.

There's too much ambiguity in that definition. One could shift it to mean whatever they wanted it to mean depending on the results they are trying to achieve. Like I said, Fedor's was much closer to defining a clear line, which is why I think his was better.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 09, 2016, 04:31:53 PM
it is binary.  you either are or are not attracted to a person at a given point in time.  are you confused because other (internal) conditions may impact your ability to experience attraction?  confused because intensity is not part of the definition?  help me understand why you perceive these words so differently than i do.

Have you never been sort of attracted to someone or more attracted to one person than another (while still being attracted to the less attractive person)? There are definitely degrees of attraction.

My God, have you not ever heard of 1 or 0?  Either you would, or you wouldn't.  Pubescent boys have been playing this game for ever. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 04:32:17 PM
what part is ambiguous?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 09, 2016, 05:11:25 PM
it is binary.  you either are or are not attracted to a person at a given point in time.  are you confused because other (internal) conditions may impact your ability to experience attraction?  confused because intensity is not part of the definition?  help me understand why you perceive these words so differently than i do.

Have you never been sort of attracted to someone or more attracted to one person than another (while still being attracted to the less attractive person)? There are definitely degrees of attraction.

My God, have you not ever heard of 1 or 0?  Either you would, or you wouldn't.  Pubescent boys have been playing this game for ever.

Sometimes if there is a drought your standards get lowered.  :dunno: So someone who is a 0 now might be a 1 later.  :D
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 05:13:26 PM
my god, this stuff is so basic and you people are struggling so much.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 05:14:42 PM
what part is ambiguous?

Both the definition of "attraction" and the line between aesthetic and sexual desire.

You can just say, "michigancat you're a dumb weird alien I just know what attraction is and therefore it's simple", but that's not a very scientific explanation.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 05:22:33 PM
there is nothing about aesthetics in the definition.  it clearly and unambiguously states "sexual".  you are inserting ambiguity that does not exist.


if you do not understand the definition of "attraction", which is part of the phrase "sexual attraction", i suggest you look up the definition of attraction and see if it resolves your doubts.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 05:47:19 PM
there is nothing about aesthetics in the definition.  it clearly and unambiguously states "sexual".  you are inserting ambiguity that does not exist.

fine

if you do not understand the definition of "attraction", which is part of the phrase "sexual attraction", i suggest you look up the definition of attraction and see if it resolves your doubts.

I understand that the definition of "attraction" is very ambiguous:

Quote
a quality or feature of something or someone that evokes interest, liking, or desire.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 07:15:56 PM
are there words you don't find ambiguous?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 07:29:50 PM
are there words you don't find ambiguous?
Yeah, there are tons*!

*the ambiguous version, not the measure of weight
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 09, 2016, 07:31:37 PM
what part of the concept of attraction is ambiguous?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 09, 2016, 10:18:47 PM
are there words you don't find ambiguous?

Are there any definitions that you do find ambiguous? For example, are any human emotions ambiguous to you, or could they all be easily classified in a binary format?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 10, 2016, 12:22:55 AM
i haven't thought about it.  most things can probably be classified in a binary format, if that's the form the data need to be in.  maybe give me an example of one you think can't be and i'll see if you're right.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 12:50:50 AM
How about fear?

I think it COULD be classified in binary format, but it would be extremely difficult to define in a way that would lead to consistent results and meaningful data.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 10, 2016, 01:27:05 AM
fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 10, 2016, 08:09:27 AM
fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.
Made even more easy to determine when you add a specific object of the emotion- are you experiencing fear of heights? yes/no. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: ChiComCat on May 10, 2016, 08:33:36 AM
You can force almost anything into a binary format.  That doesn't make it the most accurate way to classify it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 10, 2016, 08:55:00 AM
I don't think anyone said that binary was the most accurate.  It is the simplest, though.  And it seems as if we are trying to simply something that some people find rather complicated.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 08:58:26 AM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.

You can force almost anything into a binary format.  That doesn't make it the most accurate way to classify it.

Yes, this is a big part of what I'm getting at.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 10, 2016, 09:02:08 AM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: ChiComCat on May 10, 2016, 09:15:47 AM
I don't think anyone said that binary was the most accurate.  It is the simplest, though.  And it seems as if we are trying to simply something that some people find rather complicated.

You guys are going for simplicity and Michigancat is going for accuracy.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 10, 2016, 09:38:38 AM
I don't think anyone said that binary was the most accurate.  It is the simplest, though.  And it seems as if we are trying to simply something that some people find rather complicated.

You guys are going for simplicity and Michigancat is going for accuracy.

No michigan is going for obfuscation.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 09:40:37 AM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 10, 2016, 01:31:41 PM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?
In this case we are testing the proposed hypothesis and the method is definitely the most appropriate.  The data that is excluded is not important to the testing of the hypothesis. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 01:47:36 PM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?
In this case we are testing the proposed hypothesis and the method is definitely the most appropriate.  The data that is excluded is not important to the testing of the hypothesis. 

which hypothesis, exactly?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 10, 2016, 01:50:01 PM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?
Also good to see you are coming around.  Previously you were not sure how to tell if you were sexually attracted and now you not only admit you can, but you can rate the intensity on a scale of 1-10.  Progress!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 10, 2016, 01:52:10 PM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?
In this case we are testing the proposed hypothesis and the method is definitely the most appropriate.  The data that is excluded is not important to the testing of the hypothesis. 

which hypothesis, exactly?
It is stated above.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 01:53:31 PM
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 10, 2016, 02:16:37 PM
:rolleyes:
You have been doing this for 4 days and you don't even know what you are arguing about?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on May 10, 2016, 02:17:50 PM
The hypothesis (if I recall correctly) is that there is no gender (and possibly sexual orientation) spectrum.   
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 02:49:44 PM
:rolleyes:
You have been doing this for 4 days and you don't even know what you are arguing about?
I don't know what specific hypothesis YOU are referring to. It hasn't exactly been a linear discussion.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 10, 2016, 03:22:19 PM
the hypothesis, if we are being forced to have one, is that 90+% of male humans are 99+% homogeneous in the sex of other humans they are attracted to.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 03:49:20 PM
the hypothesis, if we are being forced to have one, is that 90+% of male humans are 99+% homogeneous in the sex of other humans they are attracted to.

In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 10, 2016, 03:52:36 PM
In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.

maybe you should think about how you would use the data more carefully.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 10, 2016, 04:05:36 PM
In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.

maybe you should think about how you would use the data more carefully.

By putting it on a spectrum like the one I posted, but maybe a slightly different one. Also, I think a 7 point scale would be better, obv.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on May 10, 2016, 04:13:18 PM
By putting it on a spectrum like the one I posted, but maybe a slightly different one. Also, I think a 7 point scale would be better, obv.

that would be using different data to confront a different (as of yet unspecified) hypothesis.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 04:23:09 PM
In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.

maybe you should think about how you would use the data more carefully.

You are correct. Binary classification is probably the best way to prove that hypothesis.

Shame on me for not recognizing how silly a hypothesis it was sooner.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 10, 2016, 04:28:39 PM
In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.

maybe you should think about how you would use the data more carefully.

You are correct. Binary classification is probably the best way to prove that hypothesis.

Shame on me for not recognizing how silly a hypothesis it was sooner.

This hypothesis seems like something you should present on John Oliver's new TODD talks.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Emo EMAW on May 10, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.

maybe you should think about how you would use the data more carefully.

You are correct. Binary classification is probably the best way to prove that hypothesis.

Shame on me for not recognizing how silly a hypothesis it was sooner.

If you believe that hypothesis to be silly, then put forth your own hypothesis.  Be sure to choose a hypothesis that allows you to use the data you want to use (which is a backasswards way of doing it, but whatever).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: renocat on May 10, 2016, 05:25:50 PM
Is.this negative fall out from climate Change?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 10, 2016, 07:12:44 PM
In that case, I think defining "attraction" on scale of 1-10 is more useful than binary classification.

maybe you should think about how you would use the data more carefully.

You are correct. Binary classification is probably the best way to prove that hypothesis.

Shame on me for not recognizing how silly a hypothesis it was sooner.

If you believe that hypothesis to be silly, then put forth your own hypothesis.  Be sure to choose a hypothesis that allows you to use the data you want to use (which is a backasswards way of doing it, but whatever).

I don't need to put forth a new hypothesis to recognize one is silly.

However, in this case:

Quote
the hypothesis, if we are being forced to have one, is that 90+% of male humans are 99+% homogeneous in the sex of other humans they are attracted to.

I think that if you don't attempt to prove homogeneity and instead grade all possible attractions on a sliding scale (that as far as I can tell, everyone agrees is present), you'd have far more interesting/useful results (even if the attractions are all from a single gender)

You could very well end up with similar results (90% of male humans are 99% homogeneous with regard to sexual preference), but you open up a lot of interesting possibilities that would unavailable in a binary classification. I still think grading on a 1-10 (or 1-7 scale) is an oversimplification, but it's better than "would you do her or not".
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 11, 2016, 11:35:38 AM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?

Do you think that everyone would interpret the 1-10 scale the same, or does that not matter? JMO but if you are trying to get info from something as subjective as emotion, having something that is simpler is probably a better format than nuance in a survey format(self reported data).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 11, 2016, 12:22:46 PM

fear seems like a pretty easy yes.  are you experiencing fear - yes/no.  even if you argue that we always experience some low level of fear, as long as it is possible to conceive of a complete lack of fear, then it can be classified in a binary format.

Is it possible to conceive of a human being in a state with a complete lack of fear of anything? Seems unlikely, hence the difficulty to gather useful data.


You don't think frequency or per event is useful data?  The divide between the binary option would be subjective but so would any continuous scale if you are talking about an emotional response.

In some cases it's definitely useful. I just think that when used to define human emotions/attractions, you unnecessarily eliminate a lot of data with binary classification compared to say, a 1-10 scale. Most have acknowledged that there can be different degrees of attractiveness, so why go backwards and insist on classifying it as binary?

Do you think that everyone would interpret the 1-10 scale the same, or does that not matter? JMO but if you are trying to get info from something as subjective as emotion, having something that is simpler is probably a better format than nuance in a survey format(self reported data).

Yes, I think everyone would interpret the 1-10 scale differently. I think everyone would interpret the yes/no cutoff differently as well, but you would also miss out on a lot of data regarding subtlety of emotions. For example, in a binary test of fear, a subject might say that neither a photo of a bunny nor a photo of a gun triggers the fear emotion. But on a 1-10 scale, the same person might give the gun a 3 and the bunny a 1. I think similar data would be useful in understanding the complexity and subjectivity of the emotion.

Maybe you try both and see which one is most consistent.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 11, 2016, 12:29:52 PM
Why would people be scared of a photo? Are they supposed to be putting themselves into some thought experiment that involves the object in the photo?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 11, 2016, 12:52:01 PM
Why would people be scared of a photo? Are they supposed to be putting themselves into some thought experiment that involves the object in the photo?
It would be a thought experiment. "Does the object in the photo cause you to feel fear?" Or, "On a scale of 1-10, how much fear does the object in the photo cause you to feel?"

You could use the actual object or create m actual situation or whatever, but that doesn't really change my point regarding binary vs. a scale.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 11, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Why would people be scared of a photo? Are they supposed to be putting themselves into some thought experiment that involves the object in the photo?
It would be a thought experiment. "Does the object in the photo cause you to feel fear?" Or, "On a scale of 1-10, how much fear does the object in the photo cause you to feel?"

You could use the actual object or create m actual situation or whatever, but that doesn't really change my point regarding binary vs. a scale.

Well we can agree to disagree that how the survey is formatted certainly should be considered when trying to glean information from it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on May 11, 2016, 01:04:11 PM
How would you format a survey with the goal of measuring/quantifying an emotion?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on May 11, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
How would you format a survey with the goal of measuring/quantifying an emotion?

Make the questions as easy to interpret as possible and try to minimize ambiguity, otherwise I have no idea what I would be measuring and you could come up with all sorts of theories but in the end how would you test them if the answer's lie in someone else's head(and obviously many more individual's heads)? I am probably not the best person to come up with a study but I would have to be convinced the scale was a better option in combination with the specific questions.

For example you have a picture of a dog, am I testing that people have had a poor experience with a dog in childhood(and subsequently little positive interaction since), or how well they recognize or interpret an animal's facial expression, or if they are extremely allergic to pets, if they've seen someone get mauled by a dog. I guess you could make people write out their thought process but again that would have a bias towards those who are more inclined to write.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 12, 2016, 12:58:25 PM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 12, 2016, 01:04:13 PM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 16, 2016, 09:07:21 AM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
It is actually very easy to understand.  The problem with the charts is that, as we have established above and everyone now agrees with, 90+% of the population are not on the spectrum.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 16, 2016, 09:09:42 AM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
It is actually very easy to understand.  The problem with the charts is that, as we have established above and everyone now agrees with, 90+% of the population are not on the spectrum.

Why wouldn't they be on the spectrum? 99% or wherever you are saying they fall is on the spectrum.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 17, 2016, 02:35:19 PM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
It is actually very easy to understand.  The problem with the charts is that, as we have established above and everyone now agrees with, 90+% of the population are not on the spectrum.

Why wouldn't they be on the spectrum? 99% or wherever you are saying they fall is on the spectrum.
It is a poor representation, it gives the impression that the population is evenly distributed along the spectrum.  It is more accurate to have a statement accompanying the graphic to the effect of "95+% of the population are hetero- or homo- and the remainder fall onto the following spectrum"
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Mrs. Gooch on May 17, 2016, 03:41:34 PM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
It is actually very easy to understand.  The problem with the charts is that, as we have established above and everyone now agrees with, 90+% of the population are not on the spectrum.

Why wouldn't they be on the spectrum? 99% or wherever you are saying they fall is on the spectrum.
It is a poor representation, it gives the impression that the population is evenly distributed along the spectrum.  It is more accurate to have a statement accompanying the graphic to the effect of "95+% of the population are hetero- or homo- and the remainder fall onto the following spectrum"

I think what you want is a topographic plot with the more densely populated points on the spectrum shown at a higher elevation.

(http://i.stack.imgur.com/ufRWW.jpg)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on May 17, 2016, 03:43:43 PM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
It is actually very easy to understand.  The problem with the charts is that, as we have established above and everyone now agrees with, 90+% of the population are not on the spectrum.

Why wouldn't they be on the spectrum? 99% or wherever you are saying they fall is on the spectrum.
It is a poor representation, it gives the impression that the population is evenly distributed along the spectrum.  It is more accurate to have a statement accompanying the graphic to the effect of "95+% of the population are hetero- or homo- and the remainder fall onto the following spectrum"

No it doesn't
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on May 17, 2016, 03:55:19 PM

I think what you want is a topographic plot with the more densely populated points on the spectrum shown at a higher elevation.

(http://i.stack.imgur.com/ufRWW.jpg)

Seems like a tool for discrimination, IMO.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Fedor on May 17, 2016, 04:56:39 PM
I honestly thought the point of the charts/graphs was to be confusing. Like, to make you go "Gee, maybe classifying people according to gender/sexual preference is way more complicated for anyone to coherently explain, so why even bother trying"?

The point of the charts was to try to help people comprehend the thing that is hard to understand and not binary at all even though the charts can never fully encompass all the nuances involved in actual IRL human sexuality/ gender identity.
It is actually very easy to understand.  The problem with the charts is that, as we have established above and everyone now agrees with, 90+% of the population are not on the spectrum.

Why wouldn't they be on the spectrum? 99% or wherever you are saying they fall is on the spectrum.
It is a poor representation, it gives the impression that the population is evenly distributed along the spectrum.  It is more accurate to have a statement accompanying the graphic to the effect of "95+% of the population are hetero- or homo- and the remainder fall onto the following spectrum"

I think what you want is a topographic plot with the more densely populated points on the spectrum shown at a higher elevation.

(http://i.stack.imgur.com/ufRWW.jpg)
Probably.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: renocat on May 17, 2016, 08:22:41 PM
Apparently gender fluidity is the buzz in Canada.  Not sure how people move back and forth on gender of the mind.  I suppose its.like thinking I have horse rod.
Hot.damn I.am.a.women today.  I think I am.  I am bidding on a federal contract.  I am a woman owned business.  Welcome.to the gravy train.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: renocat on May 19, 2016, 06:36:50 AM
Crap hailstones.  Everyone better get familiar with the term "gender fluidity".  If I wasn't on a dang phone, I would copy and paste.  I hope someone does.  This will sure tell where you stand on the political gauge.  I could be persuaded tbat locals should have to.accommodate a kid that is truly and consistently has a mind gender complex.  But this fluid crap is a big pile of dog Hilary.  We can't let this be shoved down our throats.  Turning this around will take more than an executive order.  This is a regulation.  Once you enact this, a right has been given and it ain't easy to change.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: renocat on December 26, 2017, 09:50:55 PM
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/kansas-state-university-class-gender-is-not-determined-by-chromosomes/article/2644162
Professor Genna Reeves-DeArmond shared several messages about the construct of gender in her “Dress and Human Behavior” class. According to one powerpoint slide, obtained by Red Alert Politics, gender is a spectrum; gender is a range of expression; gender is how you relate to yourself; gender is a personal identity; gender is not just male or female; gender is not defined by body parts; gender is not sexual orientation; gender is not determined by chromosomes.

Do they teach in the College of Ag that a bull can think he is a cow?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 02, 2019, 08:06:24 AM
?s=21
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on October 02, 2019, 08:39:53 AM
?s=21

That's awesome! I would like to shoot the crap with Brandon.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 01:31:11 PM
?s=20
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Institutional Control on October 22, 2019, 02:06:57 PM
That's a well known fake story.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 02:20:29 PM
That's a well known fake story.
Well known to who?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on October 22, 2019, 02:28:32 PM
I'll defer to lifesitenews.com on these things until you prove yourself Institutional Control
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 02:32:18 PM
I'll defer to lifesitenews.com on these things until you prove yourself Institutional Control
They seem pretty dedicated to fake newsing it if so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFYE6zbI-nU&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Institutional Control on October 22, 2019, 02:43:29 PM
There is a an actual custody hearing. And the father is going around telling everyone that his son is going to be forced to be castrated.  However, the mother's side is saying this is not true. Both parents have a weird history of telling stories.  There are no actual court documents available to back up the father's claim. The dad is begging for money for legal fees, so you decide.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 02:45:18 PM
So not that well known of a fake story then. Got it! And they're actually in court over this stuff? Woof!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 22, 2019, 02:47:20 PM
Every married couple that has kids and then gets divorced ends up in court over custody.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 02:48:17 PM
 :lol: Rage rushes to the defense of a story he knows nothing about. Says: "Nothing to see here" immediately.  :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 22, 2019, 02:51:15 PM
What is there to see here?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 02:56:22 PM
Nothing to you, Rage. Did you even read the report? The mom refers to the one of the boys as a female, calls him by a girls name, records show him as a female, etc. But OK. It's a gender issue.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 02:57:14 PM
HE'S 7 AND HIS MOM IS PUTTING THIS crap IN HIS HEAD!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on October 22, 2019, 02:58:07 PM
This feels like a highly exaggerated fear mongering story like new York letting parents abort 6 month olds or whatever that bullshit was about
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: meow meow on October 22, 2019, 02:59:22 PM
Every married couple that has kids and then gets divorced ends up in court over custody.

no
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on October 22, 2019, 03:28:23 PM
Guys, just let wacky meltdown about this.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 22, 2019, 09:07:50 PM
This story is so weird

?s=21
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 22, 2019, 09:18:39 PM
HE'S 7 AND HIS MOM IS PUTTING THIS crap IN HIS HEAD!

I have no idea how it came to be, but I have a camper who was born female but identifies as a male and has since he was 6. He's 10 now and he's just an amazing kid. I think the parents allowing him to change how he identifies so early has helped him, no one has a clue. He's also taking hormone suppression shots. He loves Steph Curry and the Dubs. We coordinate on wearing our Strength In Numbers shirts, this summer kinda sucked.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Church Creeper on October 22, 2019, 09:21:31 PM
So she's a tomboy...been happening for generations.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 22, 2019, 09:25:37 PM
So she's a tomboy...been happening for generations.

Yes, a tomboy taking hormone suppression shots.

I also forgot to mention that this is a black kid adopted by wypipo.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on October 23, 2019, 12:30:43 AM
So she's a tomboy...been happening for generations.

Yes, a tomboy taking hormone suppression shots.

I also forgot to mention that this is a black kid adopted by wypipo.
Oh, well in THAT case...
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on October 23, 2019, 12:25:30 PM
Dang I did not think they even did hormone suppression shots that young unless there was a medical need for it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 08:16:57 PM
That's a well known fake story.
WELP!!!

?s=21
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 08:22:09 PM
Guys, just let wacky meltdown about this.
Yikes. What a fool. You do love Baylor’s admin tho! Makes sense.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Chingon on October 23, 2019, 08:26:29 PM
Okay
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 08:35:12 PM
Jesus, what a clown.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
Phew! I use to worry that Chings really thought I was a racist for saying Kap was ethnically mixed, but now that he’s going all out on supporting Baylor’s admin, I feel better now. Close call and what a sad turn of events.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Institutional Control on October 23, 2019, 09:34:18 PM
That's a well known fake story.
WELP!!!

?s=21
What are you thinking that proves? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 09:41:37 PM
Other than your own bias opinion, what does it disprove from the original story I posted that you thought was fake news?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 09:55:41 PM
You think the dad is full of crap? Cool. Does his mom force him into a gender that he probably can’t cognitively approve of yet? Yeah, probably. Does he have higher risk of getting hormone shots for a gender he’s probably not cognitive of choosing yet? Yes. You think the dad is full of crap though, so whatevs, right?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on October 23, 2019, 10:04:52 PM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: gatoveintisiete on October 23, 2019, 10:15:33 PM
wacky seems to be on pretty solid ground here
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 23, 2019, 10:16:37 PM
LN is going to rally his troops before deciding though. Sad, really.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 23, 2019, 11:40:50 PM
You think the dad is full of crap? Cool. Does his mom force him into a gender that he probably can’t cognitively approve of yet? Yeah, probably. Does he have higher risk of getting hormone shots for a gender he’s probably not cognitive of choosing yet? Yes. You think the dad is full of crap though, so whatevs, right?

That is a whole lot of conclusions to come to about people you know nothing about. Did you need the kid wearing a pink dress and saying yas queen for you to determine it's what she really wants?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on October 24, 2019, 06:56:17 AM
LN is going to rally his troops before deciding though. Sad, really.

What exactly is it that I need to decide?

V cool that I have an army tho
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 8manpick on October 24, 2019, 07:46:06 AM
I think I’m with wacky and gato27 on not giving life altering hormone therapy to 7 year olds.  Strange company.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on October 24, 2019, 07:50:11 AM
I think I’m with wacky and gato27 on not giving life altering hormone therapy to 7 year olds.  Strange company.

I am as well. common ground!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on October 24, 2019, 08:11:43 AM
I would join this common ground position.



As a caveat what is going on with dad that would drive a jury in Texas of all places to give mom sole custody.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on October 24, 2019, 08:16:38 AM
I would join this common ground position.



As a caveat what is going on with dad that would drive a jury in Texas of all places to give mom sole custody.

iirc he's a known fabricator of stories (of which this may or may not be one)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 24, 2019, 08:19:38 AM
It's not something I would do or condone, but it's not a big enough problem that we need to worry about it, either. I'd rather the government not do anything about it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: ChiComCat on October 24, 2019, 08:40:07 AM
I am pretty confident that if the story were real, CPS would assign someone else to make medical decisions for the children.  Life Site News seems really obsessed with something called Amazon Synod.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on October 24, 2019, 08:40:31 AM
Yeah, parents in America can pretty much do just about anything they want to their kids. Just look how much harm is done through brainwashing religion or racism or even just giving them a stupid name.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: ChiComCat on October 24, 2019, 08:54:15 AM
After reading from sources not named Life Site News, it seems the boy said he wanted to be a girl and the mom is supportive of that (after the child saw a therapist) and the dad is not.  No medical procedures or treatments would be done, the issue is the mother being open the child choosing how to present.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on October 24, 2019, 08:57:50 AM
The absolute horror


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 09:00:31 AM
After reading from sources not named Life Site News, it seems the boy said he wanted to be a girl and the mom is supportive of that (after the child saw a therapist) and the dad is not.  No medical procedures or treatments would be done, the issue is the mother being open the child choosing how to present.
:lol: “After digging through enough rando articles to find the conclusion I wanted, here it is” :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: ChiComCat on October 24, 2019, 09:01:49 AM
After reading from sources not named Life Site News, it seems the boy said he wanted to be a girl and the mom is supportive of that (after the child saw a therapist) and the dad is not.  No medical procedures or treatments would be done, the issue is the mother being open the child choosing how to present.
:lol: “After digging through enough rando articles to find the conclusion I wanted, here it is” :lol:

Yes, I believe the Washington post and other news outlets over "Life Site News"
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 24, 2019, 09:02:07 AM
After reading from sources not named Life Site News, it seems the boy said he wanted to be a girl and the mom is supportive of that (after the child saw a therapist) and the dad is not.  No medical procedures or treatments would be done, the issue is the mother being open the child choosing how to present.
:lol: “After digging through enough rando articles to find the conclusion I wanted, here it is” :lol:

It's the best LibBot pre-approved sourcing.



Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 09:03:58 AM
What age do we decide a kid can make choices like this?


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
After puberty? :dunno:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on October 24, 2019, 09:15:46 AM
420seriouscat69, we are buds that talk on the phone so this is not an attack, but shouldn't you be happy that what you thought was happening isn't actually happening? Why dig in further?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 09:26:33 AM
There are several kids at the high school I work at that have changed genders or whatever. Sometimes I forget and drop and ‘she’ instead of a ‘he’ but it’s not a big deal.

It’s not hard to just be a decent human being and not get worked up about other people’s choices.


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: hjfklmor on October 24, 2019, 09:28:27 AM
The dad is legitimately a piece of crap tho..
http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708 (http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on October 24, 2019, 09:31:29 AM
The dad is legitimately a piece of crap tho..
http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708 (http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708)

 :sdeek:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 09:32:18 AM
420seriouscat69, we are buds that talk on the phone so this is not an attack, but shouldn't you be happy that what you thought was happening isn't actually happening? Why dig in further?
Yeah, I just hope it's not happening. Seems like there's a lot of grey areas to this story.

Ok Cat, I don't have issues with the LGBTQ community at all. I want everyone to be happy and do whatever makes them happy. I think there should be some type of age requirement however for such a decision as hormone shots. Kids change their minds a lot and I just worry about the long term damage of the human itself, if they were to ever change their mind as they got older.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 09:33:52 AM
The dad is legitimately a piece of crap tho..
http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708 (http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708)

 :sdeek:
Pffttt. Like i'm going to open some site called search.txcourts.gov  :D
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 09:34:17 AM
:thumbs:


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mocat on October 24, 2019, 09:39:39 AM
wait until wacky hears about how many children have died in cages at the hands of the US govt
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 09:44:20 AM
wait until wacky hears about how many children have died in cages at the hands of the US govt

Wait until they go through puberty


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 24, 2019, 09:44:50 AM
wait until wacky hears about how many children have died in cages at the hands of the US govt

Wacky shouldn't acknowledge that until LibBots acknowledge it was the Obama administration that installed the cages, and more people died trying to cross the border during the Obama era than so far during the Trump era, with nearly 50% more crossers at peak during the Trump era, to date.



Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 09:53:04 AM
Holy Jesus, Dax. Everybody agrees that children in cages is shitty regardless of who did it.


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 24, 2019, 09:54:39 AM
Holy Jesus, Dax. Everybody agrees that children in cages is shitty regardless of who did it.


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Resident LibBot Nation only became concerned about this in January 2017
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 09:56:27 AM
Trying to figure out how Dax feels about children and gender changes and also children in cages


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on October 24, 2019, 09:58:27 AM
Dax's official position is that if we don't separate families and put kids in cages then the sex traffickers win
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 10:00:28 AM
What if the children in cages want to change their gender?


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 24, 2019, 10:03:56 AM
I know LibDork.9 always comments on things he really doesn't know anything about.    But they separate families so they can determine if its legit.  I know small brains like LibDork.9 don't understand, but traffickers try to pass themselves as parents or guardians all the time.

The official LibBot Nation stance on the border is just throw it open and let the drug cartels and traffickers have free reign . . . LibBot Leadership is just too chickenshit to admit they sold out to the open borders groups.

Then again, LibBot Nation protests ICE while ICE is in the process of busting sex traffickers, so . . .



Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 10:05:13 AM
Sir, this is an Arby’s


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 24, 2019, 10:17:04 AM
Sir, this is an Arby’s


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It's a COLUSION of LibBot tapouts
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on October 24, 2019, 10:23:26 AM
Dax's official position is that if we don't separate families and put kids in cages then the sex traffickers win

I know LibDork.9 always comments on things he really doesn't know anything about.    But they separate families so they can determine if its legit.  I know small brains like LibDork.9 don't understand, but traffickers try to pass themselves as parents or guardians all the time.

The official LibBot Nation stance on the border is just throw it open and let the drug cartels and traffickers have free reign . . . LibBot Leadership is just too chickenshit to admit they sold out to the open borders groups.

Then again, LibBot Nation protests ICE while ICE is in the process of busting sex traffickers, so . . .





Why are you so enraged that I accurately portrayed your position?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on October 24, 2019, 10:26:47 AM
I know LibDork.9 always comments on things he really doesn't know anything about.    But they separate families so they can determine if its legit.  I know small brains like LibDork.9 don't understand, but traffickers try to pass themselves as parents or guardians all the time.

The official LibBot Nation stance on the border is just throw it open and let the drug cartels and traffickers have free reign . . . LibBot Leadership is just too chickenshit to admit they sold out to the open borders groups.

Then again, LibBot Nation protests ICE while ICE is in the process of busting sex traffickers, so . . .

Mods?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mods? on October 24, 2019, 10:33:49 AM
Hi! I'm =mods?=

This place is a not nice place like under my mango trees, so good bye!

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 10:36:31 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on October 24, 2019, 10:45:39 AM
The dad is legitimately a piece of crap tho..
http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708 (http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMedia.aspx?MediaVersionID=9f93bb60-d38b-4824-b530-fc93933f0d75&coa=coa05&DT=Other&MediaID=7a2cb72a-c155-4343-b923-06f3ab2d1708)

 :sdeek:

seems like a trustworthy fellow
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: OK_Cat on October 24, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
Mods is the best sock on this board, followed closely by Dax


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 24, 2019, 11:35:10 AM
After puberty? :dunno:

Better for the moral conscience of you, LN, 8man, and SD, worse for the kid. You guys think that when this mom had and raised a boy that she wanted a kid that is having gender identity issues and all that comes with that?

Having that kid wait until puberty to change her gender is a recipe for extreme bullying by children and adults. I illustrated the story I did so you can see a real world example of this that worked out well for the kid.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 11:38:20 AM
I appreciated the story. I think it's a rare complex issue. My thoughts are with the child either way. I don't know if there's a legit right way to tackle the "issue", but I do disagree with hormone shots for a 7 year old, if it's a real thing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 24, 2019, 11:46:03 AM
It's definitely a real thing, although it's not "hormone shots" they're hormone blocking shots. Your opinion on this is inconsistent. You said it's complex, then you said your thoughts are with the child, then you said you disagree with the therapy. What if the therapy is in the best interest of this specific child? I think the child's medical doctor and psychiatrist and or psychologist are the only people who know. It's worth noting that you can't take this action without approval of medical professionals. You can't walk into a store and buy Lupron off of the shelf.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on October 24, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
It's definitely a real thing, although it's not "hormone shots" they're hormone blocking shots. Your opinion on this is inconsistent. You said it's complex, then you said your thoughts are with the child, then you said you disagree with the therapy. What if the therapy is in the best interest of this specific child? I think the child's medical doctor and psychiatrist and or psychologist are the only people who know. It's worth noting that you can't take this action without approval of medical professionals. You can't walk into a store and buy Lupron off of the shelf.
Out of curiosity, do you know if these drugs have long lasting effects on the child?  Like, if, in 2 or 3 or 8 years, the child determines that their gender does coincide with their sex, can the effects of the drugs be reversed?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on October 24, 2019, 11:54:08 AM
I think for hormone blockers the effects can be reversed. Would I have confidence there are no other long term issues? No way. Any healthy child is going to struggle with their identity growing up, fwiw. I feel like you can help them out a lot more by encouraging that discovery process then by acting like they’ll be fine as long as their outside matches their inside.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 12:09:09 PM
It's definitely a real thing, although it's not "hormone shots" they're hormone blocking shots. Your opinion on this is inconsistent. You said it's complex, then you said your thoughts are with the child, then you said you disagree with the therapy. What if the therapy is in the best interest of this specific child? I think the child's medical doctor and psychiatrist and or psychologist are the only people who know. It's worth noting that you can't take this action without approval of medical professionals. You can't walk into a store and buy Lupron off of the shelf.
I agree that I don't know enough about the subject to give a high level response on it just yet. I just know enough that it gave me readers shock when I heard the potential of changing a kids gender at 7. That's it. I just know how much I changed from ages 0-18. It's an ever evolving roller coaster of emotions from day-to-day.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on October 24, 2019, 12:45:26 PM
this seems like a pretty good guide if you genuinely want to learn more.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/youth
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 24, 2019, 12:46:45 PM
It's definitely a real thing, although it's not "hormone shots" they're hormone blocking shots. Your opinion on this is inconsistent. You said it's complex, then you said your thoughts are with the child, then you said you disagree with the therapy. What if the therapy is in the best interest of this specific child? I think the child's medical doctor and psychiatrist and or psychologist are the only people who know. It's worth noting that you can't take this action without approval of medical professionals. You can't walk into a store and buy Lupron off of the shelf.
Out of curiosity, do you know if these drugs have long lasting effects on the child?  Like, if, in 2 or 3 or 8 years, the child determines that their gender does coincide with their sex, can the effects of the drugs be reversed?

No clue. I'm guessing they can since they are blocking the hormone developing process. Remove the blockers and the hormones develop. You then can get needed additional estrogen or testosterone if needed, I'm guessing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on October 24, 2019, 01:29:53 PM
It's definitely a real thing, although it's not "hormone shots" they're hormone blocking shots. Your opinion on this is inconsistent. You said it's complex, then you said your thoughts are with the child, then you said you disagree with the therapy. What if the therapy is in the best interest of this specific child? I think the child's medical doctor and psychiatrist and or psychologist are the only people who know. It's worth noting that you can't take this action without approval of medical professionals. You can't walk into a store and buy Lupron off of the shelf.
Out of curiosity, do you know if these drugs have long lasting effects on the child?  Like, if, in 2 or 3 or 8 years, the child determines that their gender does coincide with their sex, can the effects of the drugs be reversed?

No clue. I'm guessing they can since they are blocking the hormone developing process. Remove the blockers and the hormones develop. You then can get needed additional estrogen or testosterone if needed, I'm guessing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker

Quote
Transgender youth are a specific target population of puberty blockers to halt the development of natal secondary sex characteristics.[2]. Puberty blockers allow patients more time to solidify their gender identity, without developing secondary sex characteristics.[5] If a child later decides not to transition to another gender, the effects of puberty blockers can be reversed by stopping the medication.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 24, 2019, 01:46:40 PM
this seems like a pretty good guide if you genuinely want to learn more.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/youth

Thanks
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on October 24, 2019, 01:52:52 PM
After puberty? :dunno:

Better for the moral conscience of you, LN, 8man, and SD, worse for the kid. You guys think that when this mom had and raised a boy that she wanted a kid that is having gender identity issues and all that comes with that?

Having that kid wait until puberty to change her gender is a recipe for extreme bullying by children and adults. I illustrated the story I did so you can see a real world example of this that worked out well for the kid.

again i don't believe my opinion matters at all in this case and the family should advance in a manner that is best for the child family

as we are sharing personal stories however I recently worked with a young person (12) who has identified as a boy for three years now and is currently choosing to identify as gender fluid and sometimes id's as a girl again

great kid
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on October 24, 2019, 02:22:43 PM
After puberty? :dunno:

Better for the moral conscience of you, LN, 8man, and SD, worse for the kid. You guys think that when this mom had and raised a boy that she wanted a kid that is having gender identity issues and all that comes with that?

Having that kid wait until puberty to change her gender is a recipe for extreme bullying by children and adults. I illustrated the story I did so you can see a real world example of this that worked out well for the kid.

again i don't believe my opinion matters at all in this case and the family should advance in a manner that is best for the child family

as we are sharing personal stories however I recently worked with a young person (12) who has identified as a boy for three years now and is currently choosing to identify as gender fluid and sometimes id's as a girl again

great kid

Thanks LN

I can't imagine the anguish of having to deal with this, on top of everything else that comes with being a tween in our society today. I have another camper who is 14, born female and switches between being identified as male and gender fluid. This has happened within the last year and a half. He isn't doing nearly as well as my two younger transgender campers. He identified as female for 13 years and changed his gender identity either during or after puberty. It's hard for him, his parents, little sister, and everyone who's known him. The fact that he has very well defined physical features makes it hard for kids around him and makes him a target.

It's why I can't understand people who view these children and or their parents as something less than or even evil. It's not something anyone would ever want to go through, if given a choice.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on October 24, 2019, 02:23:55 PM
this seems like a pretty good guide if you genuinely want to learn more.

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/youth

Thanks
Yes, thanks. I'm going to read up on this.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on October 25, 2019, 12:23:07 PM
here's a really good thread from the father of a transgender child:


?s=20
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 18, 2021, 03:43:40 PM
?s=20
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Institutional Control on February 18, 2021, 03:49:59 PM
I've seen that on FB and I'm curious why it's getting attention now. It's from 2013.
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 18, 2021, 05:37:49 PM
Why stop caring at the chromosomal level? Anyone with genes that cause them to grow over 6’ 8” should be in their own league IMO.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on February 18, 2021, 08:08:00 PM
When Olga Firsova was looking like that, dominating the Big 12, nobody said a damn thing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: nicname on February 18, 2021, 11:43:38 PM
Connecticut runners part of debate over transgender athletes

https://apnews.com/article/dcbca5cf940548628dba351f6c91bcd9


NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) — Andraya Yearwood hears the comments, usually from adults and usually not to her face.

She shouldn’t be running, they say, not against girls.

Yearwood, a 17-year-old junior at Cromwell High School, is one of two transgender high school sprinters in Connecticut, transitioning to female.

She recently finished second in the 55-meter dash at the state open indoor track championships. The winner, Terry Miller of Bloomfield High, is also transgender and set a girls state indoor record of 6.95 seconds. Yearwood finished in 7.01 seconds and the third-place competitor, who is not transgender, finished in 7.23 seconds.

Miller and Yearwood also topped the 100-meter state outdoor championships last year, and Miller won the 300 indoors this season
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on February 19, 2021, 01:38:59 AM
Who cares
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 19, 2021, 08:01:44 AM
Oddly enough the ones who care are the same ones who say there need to be winners and losers in sports to toughen kids up.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on February 19, 2021, 09:50:28 AM
exactly.

For all of this to make sense you have to operate under the ridiculous premise that men are transitioning just so they can be successful low level athletes. All of the headaches and bullshit you have to put up with to transition is completely worth it to win a 2A high school race in track, to make tens of dollars as a local human cage fighter, or to play in the third division of women's professional basketball in New Zealand. Totally worth it for the thousands of dollars in surgeries and hormone treatments, being a pariah, the high murder rate, and knowing half of the population believes you're better off dead.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: ChiComCat on February 19, 2021, 09:54:44 AM
exactly.

For all of this to make sense you have to operate under the ridiculous premise that men are transitioning just so they can be successful low level athletes. All of the headaches and bullshit you have to put up with to transition is completely worth it to win a 2A high school race in track, to make tens of dollars as a local human cage fighter, or to play in the third division of women's professional basketball in New Zealand. Totally worth it for the thousands of dollars in surgeries and hormone treatments, being a pariah, the high murder rate, and knowing half of the population believes you're better off dead.

Well said.  I think it's more important for transgender people to be included even if it sacrifices my future daughter's shot at a 4A state tennis title or whatever
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on February 19, 2021, 09:58:30 AM
kinda OT by my kids second grade teacher (old lady) told them pushups from your knees are called "girl pushups" like we used to call them when I was a kid and I was very WTF. lady, you can't be saying crap like that. I mean, obviously you can for some reason but I don't think you should.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 19, 2021, 09:59:28 AM
exactly.

For all of this to make sense you have to operate under the ridiculous premise that men are transitioning just so they can be successful low level athletes. All of the headaches and bullshit you have to put up with to transition is completely worth it to win a 2A high school race in track, to make tens of dollars as a local human cage fighter, or to play in the third division of women's professional basketball in New Zealand. Totally worth it for the thousands of dollars in surgeries and hormone treatments, being a pariah, the high murder rate, and knowing half of the population believes you're better off dead.

Well said.  I think it's more important for transgender people to be included even if it sacrifices my future daughter's shot at a 4A state tennis title or whatever
How noble of you.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on February 19, 2021, 10:02:22 AM
I think it's a little ridiculous and unfair, but i also dgaf about women's sports anyway, so whatever.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 19, 2021, 10:05:43 AM
It bothers me a lot more at the college level and above than it does at the high school level and below. I would have a very difficult time taking an olympic record set by a transgender woman seriously.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 19, 2021, 10:25:06 AM
It bothers me a lot more at the college level and above than it does at the high school level and below. I would have a very difficult time taking an olympic record set by a transgender woman seriously.
I mean we still count the records that were set in swimming when everyone was literally wearing performance enhancing equipment in 2008. I don’t fully understand the argument unless you’re calling for everyone to do the events naked and use similar equipment as they did when each event was introduced (which TO BE FAIR I do think would be badass).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on February 19, 2021, 10:31:41 AM
liked these comments from the non-pos republican gov of utah.

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 19, 2021, 10:54:58 AM
It bothers me a lot more at the college level and above than it does at the high school level and below. I would have a very difficult time taking an olympic record set by a transgender woman seriously.
I mean we still count the records that were set in swimming when everyone was literally wearing performance enhancing equipment in 2008. I don’t fully understand the argument unless you’re calling for everyone to do the events naked and use similar equipment as they did when each event was introduced (which TO BE FAIR I do think would be badass).

We don't count records for people caught using steroids, and I view it more similarly to that.
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 19, 2021, 11:46:13 AM
That’s because steroid use is against the rules. We also wouldn’t count a record set this year by someone wearing the same swimsuit they were using in 2008.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: bucket on February 19, 2021, 11:59:35 AM
It bothers me a lot more at the college level and above than it does at the high school level and below. I would have a very difficult time taking an olympic record set by a transgender woman seriously.
I mean we still count the records that were set in swimming when everyone was literally wearing performance enhancing equipment in 2008. I don’t fully understand the argument unless you’re calling for everyone to do the events naked and use similar equipment as they did when each event was introduced (which TO BE FAIR I do think would be badass).

We don't count records for people caught using steroids, and I view it more similarly to that.

Athletes have been cheating forever. It wasn't a baseball thing that only lasted for a decade.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on February 19, 2021, 12:01:10 PM
I just don't see how this could ever be perceived as a problem in amateur athletics?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 19, 2021, 12:08:30 PM
This thread is really delivering.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on February 19, 2021, 12:37:54 PM
It bothers me a lot more at the college level and above than it does at the high school level and below. I would have a very difficult time taking an olympic record set by a transgender woman seriously.

Well considering most Olympic sport governing bodies perform hormone testing, I doubt you'll ever have to worry about it. Caster Semenya is a real world example of someone who was harmed because we as a society can't figure out how to deal with gender.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on February 23, 2021, 08:43:44 AM
According to rural KS Facebook posts this is the number one issue we face as a society right now.

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I'm not going to fact check that, but these gender hustlers need to think more critically about what they're really asking for here. I can't imagine the amount of crying they would do if someone born a female was competing in female sports while transitioning to a male who is taking testosterone. These idiots here are trying to pass a bathroom bill here in schools. A person born a woman who has transitioned into a male but hasn't had reassignment surgery yet testified to a committee that he will be forced to use the girls bathroom when he visits his daughter's schools, none of them cared, they were all still YOLO!!! Really showing how much they actually care about these precious little girls.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 26, 2021, 03:06:05 PM
With the news this week, i have been thinking a lot about this issue politically and otherwise. I would be up for an IRL discussion with someone who sees this issue differently than i do sometime- to help me better understand the other side*. If anyone wants to have that discussion to better understand one another- DM me and let’s set up a time to grab coffee and hang.

*i am a believer in a traditional Christian sexual ethic
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 26, 2021, 03:10:29 PM
But it would need to be IRL. I am not good at discussing issues that can become really emotionally charged online- which is why i don’t pit and pretty much at this point just sign on here sporadically. In my younger goEMAW days i got into some threads i regret because they became unhelpful and often mean spirited, and i didn’t like what it brought out in me.

Go cats ftb
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Jobu on February 26, 2021, 03:57:44 PM
But it would need to be IRL. I am not good at discussing issues that can become really emotionally charged online- which is why i don’t pit and pretty much at this point just sign on here sporadically. In my younger goEMAW days i got into some threads i regret because they became unhelpful and often mean spirited, and i didn’t like what it brought out in me.

Go cats ftb

Sign of maturity. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on February 26, 2021, 04:16:41 PM
take it to the signs of getting old thread cf3
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: wetwillie on February 26, 2021, 07:18:48 PM
With the news this week, i have been thinking a lot about this issue politically and otherwise. I would be up for an IRL discussion with someone who sees this issue differently than i do sometime- to help me better understand the other side*. If anyone wants to have that discussion to better understand one another- DM me and let’s set up a time to grab coffee and hang.

*i am a believer in a traditional Christian sexual ethic

What news?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 26, 2021, 07:45:30 PM
The house believes trans people should have rights.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 26, 2021, 07:49:42 PM
The house believes trans people should have rights.
And 99% of people are down for this, sports are a separate issue here.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 26, 2021, 07:59:58 PM
 I also appreciate MIR’s take too about why would someone put themselves through such a transformation to get a leg up in a particular gender sport. I just think it is a semi issue when breaking down the the two.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: wetwillie on February 26, 2021, 08:02:18 PM
The house believes trans people should have rights.

Ah I thought he was referencing Hasbro trying to make Mr Potato Head gender neutral and then walking it back
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on February 26, 2021, 08:21:26 PM
I also appreciate MIR’s take too about why would someone put themselves through such a transformation to get a leg up in a particular gender sport. I just think it is a semi issue when breaking down the the two.

First, what do you mean by semi?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 26, 2021, 08:35:26 PM
I also appreciate MIR’s take too about why would someone put themselves through such a transformation to get a leg up in a particular gender sport. I just think it is a semi issue when breaking down the the two.

First, what do you mean by semi?
I put my kid gloves on these days to be more liked and accepted by my friends from gE. I’m happy for ppl who switch genders for their happiness in life, I disagree with them hopping sports when it comes to gender. Does this make you happy, jerk?! :shakesfist:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: dal9 on February 26, 2021, 09:32:39 PM
Gov. Cox lol
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 26, 2021, 10:14:29 PM
What does the "traditional Christian sexual ethic" say about transgender rights?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: chum1 on February 27, 2021, 08:05:47 AM
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 09:11:10 AM
?s=21
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 09:24:27 AM
If Demi does anything to prevent stories of some maga exploding himself and his brother just to have a pink pipe bomb party I will never listen to Confident again.

I will still however listen to Sorry Not Sorry cuz it slaps
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Kat Kid on February 27, 2021, 09:42:36 AM
Gender reveal parties must be defended at all costs, this is the rural Facebook mom Alamo.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 09:45:24 AM
Gender reveal parties must be defended at all costs, this is the rural Facebook mom Alamo.

I have heard them called the redneck dad baby shower and I concur
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 09:45:56 AM
They’re dumb af, but let’s not ignore how woke we’re all getting about ppl enjoying a good ole gender reveal. The left of the left are going to make you feel bad about breathing eventually.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DaBigTrain on February 27, 2021, 09:49:36 AM
They’re dumb af, but let’s not ignore how woke we’re all getting about ppl enjoying a good ole gender reveal. The left of the left are going to make you feel bad about breathing eventually.

Please keep a lookout for this and let us know when it happens. TIA
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 09:52:02 AM
They’re dumb af, but let’s not ignore how woke we’re all getting about ppl enjoying a good ole gender reveal. The left of the left are going to make you feel bad about breathing eventually.

Please keep a lookout for this and let us know when it happens. TIA
It’s literally happening right now, Jobu!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:05:13 AM
They’re dumb af, but let’s not ignore how woke we’re all getting about ppl enjoying a good ole gender reveal. The left of the left are going to make you feel bad about breathing eventually.

You think people mocking gender reveal parties is a political issue?  Like, this is an actual thought you have irl?  Because, I doubt even a totally hammered kietz thinks that.

Or is this parody?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:07:12 AM
I think ppl deflecting ppl mocking gender reveals as transphobic is the issue here.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:08:53 AM
I thought the magas had reached a limit of playing the victim and whining but nope.

Everything from facebook to hasbro is just a big meanie hurting feelings
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 27, 2021, 10:09:30 AM
I always thought gender reveal parties were a rich person’s game like engagement parties. Not sure if the fancy folk are walking away from them or if rednecks have just been way better at publicizing theirs.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:11:06 AM
Are they transphobic?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 27, 2021, 10:13:49 AM
Are they transphobic?
Before now? I’d guess 99.99% aren’t. But I do expect the Streisand Effect to come full force if Demi’s comments catch on.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:15:02 AM
Are they transphobic?

Pop star Demi Lovato seems to think so. No word on Fergie's personal opinion as of right now.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:16:27 AM
People are getting stupid about everything. I blame Trump for making ppl so senile about going so far left, they’ve fallen off the grid.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:19:49 AM
He also made the magas play the victim on everything from twitter to pay patrol.  He whined on twitter daily about the big meanies out there. It was a vicious cycle.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:22:53 AM
Mean things on Twitter > bombing countries for no reason and back tracking on everything you ran for  :curse:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:24:44 AM
Mean things on Twitter > bombing countries for no reason and back tracking on everything you ran for  :curse:

This makes no sense in this thread.  There are multiple dax whines/rages threads where this fits.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:28:08 AM
Mean things on Twitter > bombing countries for no reason and back tracking on everything you ran for  :curse:

This makes no sense in this thread.  There are multiple dax whines/rages threads where this fits.
Neither did MAGA talk, but you brought it up.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 10:28:33 AM
?s=21

Is she wrong?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: wetwillie on February 27, 2021, 10:29:11 AM
That is Justin Bieber
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DaBigTrain on February 27, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
They’re dumb af, but let’s not ignore how woke we’re all getting about ppl enjoying a good ole gender reveal. The left of the left are going to make you feel bad about breathing eventually.

Please keep a lookout for this and let us know when it happens. TIA
It’s literally happening right now, Jobu!
How many socks am I up to now? Gotta be over 20 by now.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
?s=21

Is she wrong?
You really need to get out of San Fran soon. I can smell the hemp oil on you from the message board.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 10:34:55 AM
?s=21

Is she wrong?
You really need to get out of San Fran soon. I can smell the hemp oil on you from the message board.

It was a yes or no question
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:35:42 AM
Mean things on Twitter > bombing countries for no reason and back tracking on everything you ran for  :curse:

This makes no sense in this thread.  There are multiple dax whines/rages threads where this fits.
Neither did MAGA talk, but you brought it up.

You were literally whining about how the left is stopping you from breathing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:36:08 AM
No. JFC, no. @mich
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:39:00 AM
Mean things on Twitter > bombing countries for no reason and back tracking on everything you ran for  :curse:

This makes no sense in this thread.  There are multiple dax whines/rages threads where this fits.
Neither did MAGA talk, but you brought it up.

You were literally whining about how the left is stopping you from breathing.
you backed this cancel culture train because of Magas and now you have to face your wrong doings by this “woke” party. Welcome to the show.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:42:15 AM
Mean things on Twitter > bombing countries for no reason and back tracking on everything you ran for  :curse:

This makes no sense in this thread.  There are multiple dax whines/rages threads where this fits.
Neither did MAGA talk, but you brought it up.

You were literally whining about how the left is stopping you from breathing.
you backed this cancel culture train because of Magas and now you have to face your wrong doings by this “woke” party. Welcome to the show.

Again, take to one of dax's whining/crying threads.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:43:23 AM
 :lol: Watching you deflect the next 4 years is going to be a blast. :love:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:44:23 AM
?s=21
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 10:46:41 AM
If you keep melting down and posting stuff in the wrong threads you will have to go back to the wacky whine zone.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 10:47:58 AM
LOL at MAGAS that still think Bill Maher is some kind of liberal hero
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:49:04 AM
 :lol: I Forgot. The pit is only group think central these days. Get on board or get blocked! Lol
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 10:52:34 AM
:lol: I Forgot. The pit is only group think central these days. Get on board or get blocked! Lol

I asked you a question on whether or not you thought Demi Lavato was wrong when she posted that gender reveal parties were transphobic. No one is cancelling you.

FWIW, if you had a gender reveal party (pretty likely) I don't think you had transphobic intentions
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 10:56:07 AM
We had a cake made for the Mrs and I to find out the gender and it was a pretty big day for us, because the Fanning name will continue on. If he wants to change his gender or not produce more ppl on earth, that’s fine by me. I love him. It’s idiotic to keep labeling crap these days tho.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 10:59:03 AM


We had a cake made for the Mrs and I to find out the gender and it was a pretty big day for us, because the Fanning name will continue on. If he wants to change his gender or not produce more ppl on earth, that’s fine by me. I love him. It’s idiotic to keep labeling crap these days tho.

The fanning name is a label
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 27, 2021, 10:59:46 AM
?s=21

Is she wrong?
Anything can be transphobic if you do it to undermine or offend trans people. So if she’s right, the word itself really isn’t helpful to define anything.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 11:00:51 AM
If someone thinks that there is even a 1/10000000000000000th % chance in this country someone will stop you from having a gender reveal party then please don't have any kids to reveal their gender.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 11:04:43 AM


We had a cake made for the Mrs and I to find out the gender and it was a pretty big day for us, because the Fanning name will continue on. If he wants to change his gender or not produce more ppl on earth, that’s fine by me. I love him. It’s idiotic to keep labeling crap these days tho.

The fanning name is a label
It’s our families history. It would have died with me if I didn’t have a son. My uncle has a husband and my brother married into a kid. We’ve done a crap ton of IUI’s to have a 2nd kid, but it’s not happening. Ppl that are offended by genders are the same ppl offended by everything!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 11:12:14 AM


We had a cake made for the Mrs and I to find out the gender and it was a pretty big day for us, because the Fanning name will continue on. If he wants to change his gender or not produce more ppl on earth, that’s fine by me. I love him. It’s idiotic to keep labeling crap these days tho.

The fanning name is a label
It’s our families history. It would have died with me if I didn’t have a son. My uncle has a husband and my brother married into a kid. We’ve done a crap ton of IUI’s to have a 2nd kid, but it’s not happening. Ppl that are offended by genders are the same ppl offended by everything!

Agreed that if a gender offends you it's going too far.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Kat Kid on February 27, 2021, 11:27:33 AM
I wish conservatives would go back to doing the smug satisfied crap like getting coffee mugs that say “liberal tears” on them or protesting Starbucks by ordering a coffee and then throwing it in the trash or something.  The whining and crying is a bit grating and it is early days yet.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 11:31:15 AM
I wish conservatives would go back to doing the smug satisfied crap like getting coffee mugs that say “liberal tears” on them or protesting Starbucks by ordering a coffee and then throwing it in the trash or something.  The whining and crying is a bit grating and it is early days yet.

As a moderate I agree.  I now miss the "eff your feelings" mantra from the heady maga days.  Now it is all about feelings being hurt.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
😂
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mocat on February 27, 2021, 11:51:46 AM


I wish conservatives would go back to doing the smug satisfied crap like getting coffee mugs that say “liberal tears” on them or protesting Starbucks by ordering a coffee and then throwing it in the trash or something.  The whining and crying is a bit grating and it is early days yet.



Yes, like the maga version of woody Guthrie (?) with THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS on his acoustic
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 12:02:06 PM
I mean, faking like you care about human rights must be frustrating to defend as a party, while you bomb other countries for no reason, but someone has to do it. Good for you guys.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 27, 2021, 01:30:11 PM
I also appreciate MIR’s take too about why would someone put themselves through such a transformation to get a leg up in a particular gender sport. I just think it is a semi issue when breaking down the the two.

I agree that it's not a black and white issue at all with sports. Locker room access, isn't, either.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 01:31:47 PM


?s=21

Is she wrong?
Anything can be transphobic if you do it to undermine or offend trans people. So if she’s right, the word itself really isn’t helpful to define anything.

Something can be transphobic (or racist, etc.) even if it wasn't intended to be
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on February 27, 2021, 01:37:59 PM
Getting upset with people for being excited about something trivial like finding out the sex of their child is worse than transphobia, imo. It's being whiny and bitchy for the sake of being whiny and bitchy.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 01:39:04 PM
Getting upset with people for being excited about something trivial like finding out the sex of their child is worse than transphobia, imo. It's being whiny and bitchy for the sake of being whiny and bitchy.
Thank you for being rational!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 01:45:40 PM
If we’re going to find issues with every single thing due to potentially offending someone or a particular group, I guess I’m missing the point in all of this.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 01:51:13 PM
Getting upset with people for being excited about something trivial like finding out the sex of their child is worse than transphobia, imo. It's being whiny and bitchy for the sake of being whiny and bitchy.
I don't know if you looked at the post or not but I would compare it to explaining to someone why people might take offense to "eenie-meanie-minie-moe" or calling a black person "articulate". Like, hey, I'm sure you mean well and are having a good time but take this into consideration. It was much more informative than "whiny and bitchy"
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 01:53:59 PM
What if, just what if it wasn’t that serious!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 02:18:44 PM
What if, just what if it wasn’t that serious!
I don't think it's very serious and therefore the information doesn't hurt my feelings.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on February 27, 2021, 03:10:32 PM
being outraged about other peoples outrage is peak Wacky
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 27, 2021, 03:12:09 PM


?s=21

Is she wrong?
Anything can be transphobic if you do it to undermine or offend trans people. So if she’s right, the word itself really isn’t helpful to define anything.

Something can be transphobic (or racist, etc.) even if it wasn't intended to be
Ok so maybe you just don’t understand what transphobic means then. Racism is much broader than a phobia.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 03:17:48 PM
being outraged about other peoples outrage is peak Wacky
Displaying dumbshit you back is definitely peak wacky and you’ve never stopped defending said dumbshit. You’re married to the party. Congrats on the bombing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 03:22:11 PM
Gender issue correctness > bombing the crap out of a innocent country #Libs
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on February 27, 2021, 03:53:31 PM
What if, just what if it wasn’t that serious!

Why does something not serious bother you so much?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 04:06:47 PM
What if, just what if it wasn’t that serious!

Why does something not serious bother you so much?
because it’s just another log on the fire of crap to cancel
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 04:08:39 PM


?s=21

Is she wrong?
Anything can be transphobic if you do it to undermine or offend trans people. So if she’s right, the word itself really isn’t helpful to define anything.

Something can be transphobic (or racist, etc.) even if it wasn't intended to be
Ok so maybe you just don’t understand what transphobic means then. Racism is much broader than a phobia.
Ok
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on February 27, 2021, 04:20:05 PM
Ok, but what does that even mean? How have these cancelings effected your life beyond realizing a growing portion of public opinion on certain practices is changing, as has happened since the beginning of of civilization.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 05:00:55 PM
Ok, but what does that even mean? How have these cancelings effected your life beyond realizing a growing portion of public opinion on certain practices is changing, as has happened since the beginning of of civilization.
Continuing to push non issues over BS like this mutes ears for things that actually need change. Canceling everything makes ppl stop listening. It’s the boy who cried Wolf. Things that actually need changed like the #blm movement are getting watered down by this nonsense and the alt left bitching about gender reveals that are transphobic. Lol
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on February 27, 2021, 05:08:26 PM
Getting upset with people for being excited about something trivial like finding out the sex of their child is worse than transphobia, imo. It's being whiny and bitchy for the sake of being whiny and bitchy.

I think if you can divorce harm/intent from it...a party that absolutely links body parts to gender is pretty much the definition of opposing transgender people. Granted it would be weird to call it a sexual organ reveal party and I don't think people do it with intent to harm either. If all you're saying is taking the conversation to an 11 in emotional rhetoric is offputting then I'm not going to argue that.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on February 27, 2021, 05:10:19 PM
How does demi Lovato's opinion on gender reveal parties have any impact on BLM?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 05:24:48 PM
How does demi Lovato's opinion on gender reveal parties have any impact on BLM?
It definitely distracted from C43 learning more about how the Equality Act might not be a threat to traditional Christian values
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on February 27, 2021, 05:58:14 PM
I actually would love to hear the argument, because I just read three articles about the act and none of them explain the basis for the opposition, which just seems lazy to me.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: wetwillie on February 27, 2021, 06:25:52 PM
I hope one of you assholes actually dm’d cf3 and met up with him
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 27, 2021, 06:40:37 PM
I would meet up with CF3 and not discuss this but just have  beer with an IRL old friend who I haven't seen in awhile.  True story, walking the outfield concourse before game 7 against the Giants I bumped into him and we had one of the most pure joyous bro hugs in history.  It's not all politics/religion.  It can/should be cat bros first
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 07:10:49 PM
I would meet up with CF3 and not discuss this but just have  beer with an IRL old friend who I haven't seen in awhile.  True story, walking the outfield concourse before game 7 against the Giants I bumped into him and we had one of the most pure joyous bro hugs in history.  It's not all politics/religion.  It can/should be cat bros first
lol. JFC. You guys are too much sometimes.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on February 27, 2021, 07:11:35 PM
being outraged about other peoples outrage is peak Wacky
Displaying dumbshit you back is definitely peak wacky and you’ve never stopped defending said dumbshit. You’re married to the party. Congrats on the bombing.

I am going to need a translation on this.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 07:17:32 PM
Mansplaining to super libs is not my job here. Acting like you care about c43 feelings isn’t either. Some of you are quacks and don’t want to admit it. I can’t believe you all convinced us all to vote for war monger Biden. You all should feel ashamed and duped. I know I do by following your lead. 🤦???
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 27, 2021, 07:41:37 PM
Hey WC bud i don’t think limestone was trying to protect my feelings, he just wants to catch up. LSOC- let’s make it happen sometime once it warms up and outdoor patios are all the rage again
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 27, 2021, 07:44:04 PM
Rusty- I’m not sure what i think about the equality act. I was more curious about the philosophical issue of current gender thinking than the political issues surrounding it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 07:45:02 PM
Hey WC bud i don’t think limestone was trying to protect my feelings, he just wants to catch up. LSOC- let’s make it happen sometime once it warms up and outdoor patios are all the rage again
He honestly doesn’t care about your feelings. He only cares about being right. Please meet with him and discuss. He’ll take it tongue and cheek. He’s committed to this now.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 27, 2021, 07:48:05 PM
WC what’s going on man. This feels weird and personal
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 27, 2021, 07:52:19 PM
I’m just really confused how you took offense to limestone having a good memory of the World Series and wanting to reconnect.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 07:54:20 PM
WC what’s going on man. This feels weird and personal
My dad is in ICU right now and fell from a tree today. These guys have been lecturing ppl for 4 years now about how right humans should be. Most of them are terrible ppl who should be focusing on themselves, and not lecturing others. They will never stop. Gender lives matters to these ppl over Syrian lives. Our current President just bombed the crap out of that country and they’re more concerned about Trump’s taxes and gender feelings.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 07:56:24 PM
I’m just really confused how you took offense to limestone having a good memory of the World Series and wanting to reconnect.
you’ve been gone for awhile. He wanted to call you MAGA so hard. He’s on another level these days.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on February 27, 2021, 07:58:13 PM
WC man sounds like your family needs you tonight man. I’ll pray for your dad- let’s call it a night.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on February 27, 2021, 07:59:05 PM
Wacky, really hoping your dad is ok.


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Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 08:00:55 PM
Sorry for being a dick. They won’t let anyone in due to covid.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on February 27, 2021, 08:15:15 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad, wackster. Sending your family positive vibes.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 27, 2021, 08:24:52 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad, wackster. Sending your family positive vibes.
Thanks, man. No reason for me to be a dick all day about politics. I feel like a huge Dumbass right now.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on February 27, 2021, 08:28:16 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad, wackster. Sending your family positive vibes.
Thanks, man. No reason for me to be a dick all day about politics. I feel like a huge Dumbass right now.

Don't sweat it, dude. Thanks for sharing. Keep your fam tight.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on February 27, 2021, 08:29:40 PM
Rusty- I’m not sure what i think about the equality act. I was more curious about the philosophical issue of current gender thinking than the political issues surrounding it.
Yeah what aspect(s) are you curious about? I think you can have a rational conversation here and kudos to you for asking questions and trying to understand it all.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: mocat on February 27, 2021, 08:29:41 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad wacks hope he is feeling ok
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: LickNeckey on February 27, 2021, 08:41:04 PM
Straight up praying for you and your family.

Sorry
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on February 27, 2021, 09:20:43 PM
That's terrible man, thoughts to the wackyfam
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Katpappy on February 27, 2021, 11:15:19 PM
Mansplaining to super libs is not my job here. Acting like you care about c43 feelings isn’t either. Some of you are quacks and don’t want to admit it. I can’t believe you all convinced us all to vote for war monger Biden. You all should feel ashamed and duped. I know I do by following your lead. 🤦???

crap Whacky, they duped me into voting for the war monger; also, Bernie wasn't having any of that crap.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Katpappy on February 27, 2021, 11:21:00 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad, wackster. Sending your family positive vibes.
Thanks, man. No reason for me to be a dick all day about politics. I feel like a huge Dumbass right now.

OH, now I see why gender is such an issue.  Seriously, T's & P's for your dad.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 28, 2021, 12:10:41 AM
 Yeah, it's the pit and I was just happy to see my old friend cf3 pop in and make the point that' we don't have to talk serious irl in order to meet up.  We can just meet our old friends with no reason.

And wacks, I really rarely pray but I'll throw one up for your pops man.  We are all in this together.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on February 28, 2021, 11:56:58 AM
Hope he’s doing better wack!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 28, 2021, 12:03:09 PM
Thanks fam. Looks like it could have been a lot worse. Looks like he’ll need a back brace and surgery soon. crap sucks! It was windy yesterday. Not sure what he was thinking.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DaBigTrain on February 28, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
Hopefully he has a speedy recovery!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on February 28, 2021, 01:26:27 PM
Wack tell your dad not to identify as a leaf anymore
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on February 28, 2021, 01:59:25 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 04:40:06 AM

I'm 100% certain the bible doesn't address transgender issues. Of course the homie Al Green is speaking the gospel. People have misrepresented the bible and God since day one. You'd think making up things about God wouldn't be Christ like at all but that doesn't stop people from doing it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 05:06:42 AM


?s=21

Is she wrong?
Anything can be transphobic if you do it to undermine or offend trans people. So if she’s right, the word itself really isn’t helpful to define anything.

Something can be transphobic (or racist, etc.) even if it wasn't intended to be

She's super wrong about gender reveal parties being transphobic, I know it's an opinion but it's as wrong as having the opinion that the equator is just a social construct. If gender reveal parties are transphobic that means she's saying any acknowledgement of gender is wrong.

Learning the gender of your baby by seeing a sonogram, transphobic.
The hospital putting the gender of the baby on the card that goes on the plexiglass bassinet, transphobic.
Telling your parents the gender of your baby, transphobic.
Giving your child a non gender neutral name like Demetria Devonne or Demi, transphobic.
Circumcision, transphobic.
Using infant growth projection charts, transphobic.
Accepting balloons that say "It's A Girl," transphobic.

I think there is actual tangible harm in blurring the lines on what's considered transphobic, anti-Semitic, racist, etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the gender of a baby, or identifying someone's race those things aren't bigotry at work and making people feel that way is counterproductive.

Much in the same way that wacky and the outrage peddlers on the right consider anything they don't want to do or that hurts their feelings, cancel culture. People that use that phrase are the absolutely most controlled puppets on the planet, almost cult like. Using that term in the context of this conversation is ultra-ironic and hits to the heart of why it's absolutely moronic. This woman is expressing an opinion, frankly a really narrow minded opinion, but one nonetheless, and we have outrage robots whining about this woman expressing an opinion. It's like a race to see who can make the most banal point, the winner gets to be the biggest ignorant jackass.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 8manpick on March 03, 2021, 07:39:58 AM
Yep, well said
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 03, 2021, 08:00:19 AM
Did you just call me cult-like, MIR?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 03, 2021, 08:00:42 AM
I don't have time for this today. Have a good one.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 03, 2021, 08:21:46 AM
Not really the thread for it, but the interesting thing about the "cancel culture" outrage to me is that for libertarianism to properly function, something like "cancel culture" has to exist, and it's the self-proclaimed libertarians that cry about it the most.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 08:39:00 AM
Yes. It’s been said before, but no one seems to hate the free market more when it comes to social issues than the guys who want low taxes and small government to stay out of their lives.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 03, 2021, 09:45:25 AM
She's super wrong about gender reveal parties being transphobic, I know it's an opinion but it's as wrong as having the opinion that the equator is just a social construct. If gender reveal parties are transphobic that means she's saying any acknowledgement of gender is wrong.

Learning the gender of your baby by seeing a sonogram, transphobic.
The hospital putting the gender of the baby on the card that goes on the plexiglass bassinet, transphobic.
Telling your parents the gender of your baby, transphobic.
Giving your child a non gender neutral name like Demetria Devonne or Demi, transphobic.
Circumcision, transphobic.
Using infant growth projection charts, transphobic.
Accepting balloons that say "It's A Girl," transphobic.

that's a pretty reasonable response, but I think you're mixing gender and sex - biological information in a medical setting is not the same thing as pink fireworks. But yeah, a lot of society is transphobic on some level! it's like the "everyone's a little bit racist" puppet song.

Gender reveals were targeted because they are pretty wildly hated by non-participants already and it started a decent conversation about transgender issues.


I think there is actual tangible harm in blurring the lines on what's considered transphobic, anti-Semitic, racist, etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the gender of a baby, or identifying someone's race those things aren't bigotry at work and making people feel that way is counterproductive.

what is the tangible harm in not throwing a gender reveal party? What is the harm in painting a nursery grey or green instead of pink or blue or naming a kid Alex or giving balloons that say "congratulations" instead of "it's a girl!"?

I used this analogy before, but if a kind middle-aged Western Kansan met you and said "wow you're articulate" is that guy doing any harm? He might be a racist, but I'm sure he doesn't think he is. Is it worth explaining to folks like this why a black man might take offense to that? It really might not be depending on the situation, but is having a conversation with SOMEONE about why that can be considered offensive going to cause tangible harm? Or is it a worthy discussion to have in an effort to educate and make all types of people feel like they belong in our society?



Much in the same way that wacky and the outrage peddlers on the right consider anything they don't want to do or that hurts their feelings, cancel culture. People that use that phrase are the absolutely most controlled puppets on the planet, almost cult like. Using that term in the context of this conversation is ultra-ironic and hits to the heart of why it's absolutely moronic. This woman is expressing an opinion, frankly a really narrow minded opinion, but one nonetheless, and we have outrage robots whining about this woman expressing an opinion. It's like a race to see who can make the most banal point, the winner gets to be the biggest ignorant jackass.

yeah the post (which she borrowed) didn't call for anyone to be cancelled. It was like a "hey, I think gender reveals are transphobic, here's why" in a way to get people thinking about it, not to shame or call for boycotts or anything. the goal was to educate and start a discussion.
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 09:50:44 AM
“What is the harm in telling people how they should paint rooms in their own house?”

-Actual non-ironic question posed by mich
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 03, 2021, 09:55:48 AM
“What is the harm in telling people how they should paint rooms in their own house?”

-Actual non-ironic question posed by mich

I don't think you should tell people how to paint their rooms
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on March 03, 2021, 10:17:59 AM
A small quibble because I agree with kRusty that people get too sensitive when other people try to bring up an alternative point of view, but I don't like calling these transphobic. Transphobic has connotations of hate and fear and makes people instantly shut down because they don't see themselves as hating or fearing trans people. Something like cis-centric or something would be better, but maybe that's too much liberal babble for people too. I dunno.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 03, 2021, 10:54:59 AM
What is the definition of the term "transphobic"?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on March 03, 2021, 11:00:29 AM
What is the definition of the term "transphobic"?
I’ve always understood it and used it to define any policy, opinion, or person that does not accept trans people having equal rights, standing, status, or worth. I’m certainly not the most versed in it though. I’m sure others understand it differently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: cfbandyman on March 03, 2021, 11:05:45 AM
What is the definition of the term "transphobic"?
I’ve always understood it and used it to define any policy, opinion, or person that does not accept trans people having equal rights, standing, status, or worth. I’m certainly not the most versed in it though. I’m sure others understand it differently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's how I would define it, but then again that probably makes me transphobic to some
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: cfbandyman on March 03, 2021, 11:07:04 AM
Yes. It’s been said before, but no one seems to hate the free market more when it comes to social issues than the guys who want low taxes and small government to stay out of their lives.

It really is something, probably my favorite thing about them, or in general why I feel any "libertarian" is a "libertarian" except for their "excepts", they all have some sort of "big gubment" solution to something they hate, and I love when they do it. Literally all of them have that.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
Did you just call me cult-like, MIR?

A cult follower, yeah.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 03, 2021, 12:58:30 PM
Did you just call me cult-like, MIR?

A cult follower, yeah.
Talk about labels.... Good stuff!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 01:19:54 PM
She's super wrong about gender reveal parties being transphobic, I know it's an opinion but it's as wrong as having the opinion that the equator is just a social construct. If gender reveal parties are transphobic that means she's saying any acknowledgement of gender is wrong.

Learning the gender of your baby by seeing a sonogram, transphobic.
The hospital putting the gender of the baby on the card that goes on the plexiglass bassinet, transphobic.
Telling your parents the gender of your baby, transphobic.
Giving your child a non gender neutral name like Demetria Devonne or Demi, transphobic.
Circumcision, transphobic.
Using infant growth projection charts, transphobic.
Accepting balloons that say "It's A Girl," transphobic.

that's a pretty reasonable response, but I think you're mixing gender and sex - biological information in a medical setting is not the same thing as pink fireworks. But yeah, a lot of society is transphobic on some level! it's like the "everyone's a little bit racist" puppet song.

Gender reveals were targeted because they are pretty wildly hated by non-participants already and it started a decent conversation about transgender issues.

If she thinks gender reveal parties are transphobic, she's conflating gender and sex, not me.


I think there is actual tangible harm in blurring the lines on what's considered transphobic, anti-Semitic, racist, etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the gender of a baby, or identifying someone's race those things aren't bigotry at work and making people feel that way is counterproductive.

what is the tangible harm in not throwing a gender reveal party? What is the harm in painting a nursery grey or green instead of pink or blue or naming a kid Alex or giving balloons that say "congratulations" instead of "it's a girl!"?

I used this analogy before, but if a kind middle-aged Western Kansan met you and said "wow you're articulate" is that guy doing any harm? He might be a racist, but I'm sure he doesn't think he is. Is it worth explaining to folks like this why a black man might take offense to that? It really might not be depending on the situation, but is having a conversation with SOMEONE about why that can be considered offensive going to cause tangible harm? Or is it a worthy discussion to have in an effort to educate and make all types of people feel like they belong in our society?

I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

For the record some person telling me that I'm articulate doesn't make that person a racist, a bigot, or even insensitive, I am articulate, a lot more articulate than this hypothetical person would normally encounter regardless of race. Even if she said "you're really articulate for a black guy" that would really require a follow up conversation, but I'm not going to call that person a racist without more information. I would be inclined to think they're an ignorant buffoon though.



Much in the same way that wacky and the outrage peddlers on the right consider anything they don't want to do or that hurts their feelings, cancel culture. People that use that phrase are the absolutely most controlled puppets on the planet, almost cult like. Using that term in the context of this conversation is ultra-ironic and hits to the heart of why it's absolutely moronic. This woman is expressing an opinion, frankly a really narrow minded opinion, but one nonetheless, and we have outrage robots whining about this woman expressing an opinion. It's like a race to see who can make the most banal point, the winner gets to be the biggest ignorant jackass.

yeah the post (which she borrowed) didn't call for anyone to be cancelled. It was like a "hey, I think gender reveals are transphobic, here's why" in a way to get people thinking about it, not to shame or call for boycotts or anything. the goal was to educate and start a discussion.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 01:38:11 PM
Did you just call me cult-like, MIR?

A cult follower, yeah.
Talk about labels.... Good stuff!

Stop being a victim.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 03, 2021, 01:46:18 PM
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 03, 2021, 01:47:19 PM
I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

then where's the tangible harm in her post? Is it because it distracts from other trans issues? because a quick glance at Demi's IG shows that she talks about a wide range of LGBQT issues pretty frequently. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think our pal seven had a pretty good point that "cis-centric" or something similar is a way better label than "transphobic" and that might have triggered folks in a way that distracted them from the content of the post.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 01:53:40 PM
I don’t understand why the conversation about the propriety of her comments is judged by whether they cause “tangible harm” but the standard as to whether a person is transphobic in the first place hinges on whether they offend.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 02:12:37 PM
I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

then where's the tangible harm in her post? Is it because it distracts from other trans issues? because a quick glance at Demi's IG shows that she talks about a wide range of LGBQT issues pretty frequently. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think our pal seven had a pretty good point that "cis-centric" or something similar is a way better label than "transphobic" and that might have triggered folks in a way that distracted them from the content of the post.

She's blurring the lines of what's actually transphobic, we need to be educating people and making the standard an impossible one to follow not only makes it difficult to educate people but it opens up pretty much everyone, including trans people themselves to hypocrisy. Cis-centric is an absolutely perfect term and it's miles and miles away from transphobia. This won't happen because she's attempting to be an ally so no one will hold her feet to the fire on it, but she should actually have to apologize for so cavalierly throwing that phrase around. I do believe that transphobia, anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry, etc. have power and like anything else powerful, that power can be diluted.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 02:13:18 PM
I don’t understand why the conversation about the propriety of her comments is judged by whether they cause “tangible harm” but the standard as to whether a person is transphobic in the first place hinges on whether they offend.

It doesn't, it shouldn't, intent matters.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 03, 2021, 02:23:45 PM
I don't think my leaf post got the acknowledgement it deserved jerks
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 03, 2021, 02:29:51 PM
I don't think my leaf post got the acknowledgement it deserved jerks
It was great, bud!  :thumbs: :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 03, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

then where's the tangible harm in her post? Is it because it distracts from other trans issues? because a quick glance at Demi's IG shows that she talks about a wide range of LGBQT issues pretty frequently. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think our pal seven had a pretty good point that "cis-centric" or something similar is a way better label than "transphobic" and that might have triggered folks in a way that distracted them from the content of the post.

She's blurring the lines of what's actually transphobic, we need to be educating people and making the standard an impossible one to follow not only makes it difficult to educate people but it opens up pretty much everyone, including trans people themselves to hypocrisy. Cis-centric is an absolutely perfect term and it's miles and miles away from transphobia. This won't happen because she's attempting to be an ally so no one will hold her feet to the fire on it, but she should actually have to apologize for so cavalierly throwing that phrase around. I do believe that transphobia, anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry, etc. have power and like anything else powerful, that power can be diluted.

she just reposted an infographic set from a trans activist FWIW. She posts similar things all the time and I think it would have been an appropriate educational discussion starter for her core audience and not a hard line in the sand or impossible standard to follow.

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on March 03, 2021, 02:52:10 PM
It was earlier today that I looked up that “sex” is the term for basic science ball(s) or vag, while “gender identity” is what a person feels and expresses. If that’s right, I think Demi has an error at the bottom of page 4 of that thing.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 03, 2021, 03:41:58 PM
It is a bit of a misnomer to be fair.

To be more specific...people aren't really having "gender" reveal parties.  They're having "sex" reveal parties. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MadCat on March 03, 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: steve dave on March 03, 2021, 03:44:30 PM
It is a bit of a misnomer to be fair.

To be more specific...people aren't really having "gender" reveal parties.  They're having "sex" reveal parties.
That’s a good point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 03:49:00 PM
It was earlier today that I looked up that “sex” is the term for basic science ball(s) or vag, while “gender identity” is what a person feels and expresses. If that’s right, I think Demi has an error at the bottom of page 4 of that thing.
I figured sex was really determined by genetics rather than organs. (I.e., you are a male if you have an XY chromosome even if you don’t have a penis). In that sense the statement could still be accurate, although it doesn’t seem to be what she meant.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 03:50:20 PM
It is a bit of a misnomer to be fair.

To be more specific...people aren't really having "gender" reveal parties.  They're having "sex" reveal parties.
That’s a good point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This seems to be her point, and yet she’s being extremely combative about it instead of saying “can we just call them sex reveal parties?” Instead of saying you are transphobic if you celebrate the sex of an unborn child.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 03, 2021, 03:54:40 PM
"extremely combative" seems a bit...extreme
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on March 03, 2021, 03:55:45 PM
Alright. Let's strike that and go with "combative." Good?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 03, 2021, 03:56:28 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MadCat on March 03, 2021, 04:03:52 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html (https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html)
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 03, 2021, 04:04:27 PM
For instance- if i were using the term homosexual or heterosexual, i would say the difference is in who someone is romantically or physically attracted to, roughly speaking.

Again- I’m not looking to debate, but i can’t clearly state the argument of sex and gender being different, and if they are different, what defines a persons gender. There are things I’d disagree on, but rather than disagreeing, I’m looking to understand a that position more clearly.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 04:04:30 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?
I think the dictionary is your best source for understanding how “gender” is different from sex. And I don’t say that sarcastically. I’m just saying it is a concept derived from a shared understanding more so than anything else.

Any medical professional or scientist dealing with physiology will only deal with sex (of course including to the extent a transgendered person wants to change their sex organs to match their gender). Gender in my mind is purely a social construct that can change over time and even day to day.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 03, 2021, 04:07:49 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html (https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html)

Gotcha. So if gender is a social construct, what would be some distinctives between men and women. What would be a masculine trait and what would be a feminine trait? Again- sincerely asking.
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 03, 2021, 04:08:10 PM
To your question, I think those are all open to interpretation and also subject to change.

For example, I can identify as a man, which I would say is my gender. But if society suddenly decided that having a penis and loving sports are “women things” then I might suddenly identify as a woman even though nothing about me actually changed.

A ridiculous example obviously, but helps illustrate the disconnect at least to me.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on March 03, 2021, 04:12:54 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

I used this: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: cfbandyman on March 03, 2021, 04:29:09 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html (https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html)

Gotcha. So if gender is a social construct, what would be some distinctives between men and women. What would be a masculine trait and what would be a feminine trait? Again- sincerely asking.

I can kinda see where that goes, but I guess as we have gone through the whole "sex" and "gender" differentiation, certain things I can think of as "masculine" would be a variety of things like:

-Having a beard
-Wearing your hair shorter
-The color blue
-Told not to cry but suck it up
-Be tough, "deal with it" sort of attitude

Some of those are "fake" feeling things but plenty are "real"

Feminine obviously could be:
-Wearing dresses
-Wearing makeup
-Associated with the color pink
-OK/allowed to cry
-Playing with dolls
-Wearing your hair long

etc.

I guess a good way (for me) to differentiate the two between "gender" and "sex" is what is expected of a boy? of a girl? why do we treat them differently? How much of that is actually biological, how much of that is foisted expectations of society?

A real quick way to me to see if something is feminine is ask a real "masculine" dude if he would do *pick a feminine thing that has nothing to do with actually being a woman* like wear lipstick that literally has nothing to do with being a woman but things we associate with it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 03, 2021, 04:56:16 PM
if you're looking for links, this was cited in the post Demi shared (along with links to a lot of research) https://not-binary.org/statement/
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 03, 2021, 06:06:48 PM
Thanks MC.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 09:33:19 PM
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html (https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html)

Gotcha. So if gender is a social construct, what would be some distinctives between men and women. What would be a masculine trait and what would be a feminine trait? Again- sincerely asking.

When you use the word trait are you referring to the biological term or the societal term? Because boys do x and girls do y, and boys look like x and girls look like y don't have a place in conversations about either gender or sexual identity.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cartierfor3 on March 03, 2021, 09:44:48 PM
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 03, 2021, 09:56:40 PM
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on March 03, 2021, 09:58:07 PM
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.

For the record, I personally identify as the World's Strongest Man ...
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on March 03, 2021, 10:29:06 PM
This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html (https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html)

perhaps worth pointing out that the distinction outlined here is relatively recent and like any neologism neither fully understood or nor used by all english speakers.

Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 04, 2021, 12:36:00 AM
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.
This is pretty much my take. I don’t see a point in arguing which traits are masculine vs feminine, and I definitely don’t see the point in arguing with how someone applies those in determining how they identify personally.

I think there is certainly utility in having a shared conception of sexuality (think how complicated dating would be if “man seeking woman” required 100 follow up questions), but to refuse to recognize what someone sincerely believes is their identity just seems cruel.

And for the unpopular part of the opinion, along the same lines I don’t think we should vilify someone who says (for example) they are only interested in someone born female who identifies as a woman.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on March 04, 2021, 08:42:49 AM
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.

For the record, I personally identify as the World's Strongest Man ...
This offends me, as I identify as the World's Weakest Man and this hurts my feelings. You're cancelled!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 30, 2021, 02:24:38 PM
helpful thread/article from the perspective of kids impacted by these laws being proposed


Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 31, 2021, 08:45:25 AM
helpful thread/article from the perspective of kids impacted by these laws being proposed



Those appeals won't work a single bit on those who they need to influence to change their minds. People who think "boys shouldn't compete against girls" won't be the least bit compelled by the mental health of the child in question. You have to start with in almost all cases these transgender children aren't even looked at as children in the eyes of the skeptics
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 09:29:10 AM
Well I'm optimistic that it might influence someone like CF3, who I think is genuinely confused but willing to listen and learn.

To me the discourse around this rarely gives a crap about the kids going through the actual struggle so I thought it was good to hear their perspectives.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 31, 2021, 10:03:47 AM
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 10:23:03 AM
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
I don't know if there are two "sides" but a fairly large group is pretty damn close to totally indifferent about what trans kids go through
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on March 31, 2021, 10:29:31 AM
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
I don't know if there are two "sides" but a fairly large group is pretty damn close to totally indifferent about what trans kids go through

While I don't agree with them, I don't think this is true. The other "side" thinks letting kids transition is child abuse and the parents should be punished.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on March 31, 2021, 10:30:23 AM
Quote
Major medical groups, however, have said that this bill is "harmful" to transgender children who are already at a high risk of suicide and will now be unable to seek health care that will affirm their gender identity. The president of the American Academy of Pediatrics, Lee Beers, said that the bill is "discrimination by legislation."

"This bill is harmful in two ways," Beers said. "One, it threatens the health and well-being of transgender youth, and two, it puts politicians rather than pediatricians in charge of a child's medical care."

https://people.com/health/arkansas-passes-bill-prohibiting-transgender-children-gender-affirming-health-care/
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 10:52:20 AM
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
I don't know if there are two "sides" but a fairly large group is pretty damn close to totally indifferent about what trans kids go through

While I don't agree with them, I don't think this is true. The other "side" thinks letting kids transition is child abuse and the parents should be punished.

that pales in comparison to them worrying about their daughters sharing a bathroom with a trans kid. So like, close to indifferent
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 31, 2021, 11:15:02 AM
I was thinking along the lines of kids transitioning/ kids in sports. The bathroom bill people I think are just plain ignorant of the consequence of what they’re asking for.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 11:18:05 AM
I was thinking along the lines of kids transitioning/ kids in sports. The bathroom bill people I think are just plain ignorant of the consequence of what they’re asking for.

it's basically the same issue, but I think the youth sports focus is almost worse.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 12:34:06 PM
I don't think anyone really knows at this point the lasting effects/data on puberty blockers, but if the best science right now says that it's a net good thing, then I guess that's what makes sense to do (assuming all necessary parties are on-board). 

Feels like it's kind of throwing darts in the dark here, given the novelty of it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 01:20:22 PM
I don't think anyone really knows at this point the lasting effects/data on puberty blockers, but if the best science right now says that it's a net good thing, then I guess that's what makes sense to do (assuming all necessary parties are on-board). 

Feels like it's kind of throwing darts in the dark here, given the novelty of it.


I'm guessing these side effects aren't guesses:

Quote
What Are the Side Effects of Puberty Blockers?

While puberty blockers are generally considered safe, they have some side effects. Not everyone experiences the following, but some people do.

Possible long-term side effects of puberty blockers

    Lower bone density. To protect against this, we work to make sure every patient gets enough exercise, calcium and vitamin D, which can help keep bones healthy and strong. We also closely monitor patients’ bone density.
    Delayed growth plate closure, leading to slightly taller adult height. 
    Less development of genital tissue, which may limit options for gender affirming surgery (bottom surgery) later in life.
    Other possible long-term side effects that are not yet known.

Possible short-term side effects of puberty blockers

    Headache, fatigue, insomnia and muscle aches.
    Changes in weight, mood or breast tissue.
    Spotting or irregular periods (in menstruating patients whose periods are not completely suppressed by puberty blockers).

For children who want to delay or prevent unwanted physical changes, the mental health benefits of puberty blockers may outweigh these risks.

https://www.stlouischildrens.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-center/puberty-blockers
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 01:22:23 PM
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 01:29:51 PM
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 


depending on your definition of "widely", since the late 90's/early 2000's
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on March 31, 2021, 01:30:29 PM
To borrow a term, in that snip it basically mentions unknown unknowns for long term. Not a doctor but I'm pretty comfortable with how restrictive our regulatory agencies are in general that they aren't acting irresponsibly in this case.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 01:31:43 PM
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 


depending on your definition of "widely", since the late 90's/early 2000's
I did a little searching and saw that they've been used since the 80s -- at least for pausing/slowing down puberty in kids where its occurring too quickly, but I wonder how long it's been used to pause/prevent puberty for reasons related to gender uncertainty.  And how long before we have healthy data on lasting mental/physical health issues.

Hopefully soon/already and its all kosher and this is a great idea.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 01:35:30 PM
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 


depending on your definition of "widely", since the late 90's/early 2000's
I did a little searching and saw that they've been used since the 80s -- at least for pausing/slowing down puberty in kids where its occurring too quickly, but I wonder how long it's been used to pause/prevent puberty for reasons related to gender uncertainty.  And how long before we have healthy data on lasting mental/physical health issues.

Hopefully soon and its all kosher and this is a great idea.

yeah my quick research pointed to 90's/early 00's for that
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 01:41:25 PM
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 


depending on your definition of "widely", since the late 90's/early 2000's
I did a little searching and saw that they've been used since the 80s -- at least for pausing/slowing down puberty in kids where its occurring too quickly, but I wonder how long it's been used to pause/prevent puberty for reasons related to gender uncertainty.  And how long before we have healthy data on lasting mental/physical health issues.

Hopefully soon and its all kosher and this is a great idea.

yeah my quick research pointed to 90's/early 00's for that
Could you post a link when you get a chance?  I'm not finding it and i'd be interested in reading it.

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 31, 2021, 01:42:35 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 01:44:30 PM
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 


depending on your definition of "widely", since the late 90's/early 2000's
I did a little searching and saw that they've been used since the 80s -- at least for pausing/slowing down puberty in kids where its occurring too quickly, but I wonder how long it's been used to pause/prevent puberty for reasons related to gender uncertainty.  And how long before we have healthy data on lasting mental/physical health issues.

Hopefully soon and its all kosher and this is a great idea.

yeah my quick research pointed to 90's/early 00's for that
Could you post a link when you get a chance?  I'm not finding it and i'd be interested in reading it.



https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(17)30099-2/fulltext

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 01:47:18 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.
I think the argument is that (1) "changing your mind" (for lack of a better phrase) is pretty rare; and even if they were more common (2) puberty blockers don't have long term effects after they're done being used.

If a child uses puberty blockers, and after (x) time, they still maintain their gender identity, then they can do some kind of gender affirming treatment (i.e. estrogen/testosterone).  If the child uses puberty blockers and discovers that their gender matches their sex, they can stop taking the blockers and proceed through puberty naturally (albeit a little later than otherwise).
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 01:48:56 PM
not sure if it's clear to YLA but puberty suppression is not the same thing as gender transition.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 31, 2021, 01:51:37 PM
yeah poor timing on the post but I was bringing that up separately.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 31, 2021, 01:53:06 PM
British researchers are saying that Olympic level transgender female athletes need two full years of hormone therapy to eliminate sex based advantages, in the same/similar studies hormone advantage is seen as far as 36 months out. 

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106.long

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/current-treatment-period-may-be-too-short-to-remove-competitive-advantage-of-transgender-athletes/

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

If these studies are correct, it is reasonable to assume that trans female athletes have a potential substantial physiological advantage over their cisgendered counterparts for a protracted period of time.   So what do we tell cisgendered female athletes who lose to trans female athletes?   Suck it up?  Do better?  Train harder?   Parents of cisgendered athletes sit down and don't even pretend to protect your child's years of dedication and training or otherwise be labeled a transphobe?

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 02:52:54 PM
yeah poor timing on the post but I was bringing that up separately.
Yeah whoops and i conflated transition/blockers in my response.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 31, 2021, 03:16:53 PM
The olympics are 4 years apart (sometimes 5!). Who are these competitors that are able to qualify for female Olympic events without having transitioned for 36+ months?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 31, 2021, 03:29:29 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex. 
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 31, 2021, 03:38:11 PM
The olympics are 4 years apart (sometimes 5!). Who are these competitors that are able to qualify for female Olympic events without having transitioned for 36+ months?

Why do you think this is applicable only to Olympic athletes?

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 03:40:46 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex. 

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/trans-kids-socially-transition-study-529f34c1bb3b/

https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 31, 2021, 03:55:39 PM
The olympics are 4 years apart (sometimes 5!). Who are these competitors that are able to qualify for female Olympic events without having transitioned for 36+ months?

Why do you think this is applicable only to Olympic athletes?
I didn’t think there were other female sports where hormone levels were that closely scrutinized.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 31, 2021, 04:02:49 PM
The olympics are 4 years apart (sometimes 5!). Who are these competitors that are able to qualify for female Olympic events without having transitioned for 36+ months?

Why do you think this is applicable only to Olympic athletes?
I didn’t think there were other female sports where hormone levels were that closely scrutinized.

In the non olympic cases there's obviously going to be an inherent physiological advantage.

So again, we're just telling cisgender females and their respective families to just sit down, shut up and do better?





Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 31, 2021, 04:52:17 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex. 

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/trans-kids-socially-transition-study-529f34c1bb3b/

https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext
Man.. just socially transitioning for a kid sounds like it would be absolutely brutal. Kids can definitely be assholes, so can adults though I mean look at dax. From the looks at another study I looked at I'm sure most of these kids especially those born male have felt inadequate for most of their life.
The possible bone density and fertility issues with blockers is a little worrisome though.

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 31, 2021, 05:25:10 PM
I was thinking along the lines of kids transitioning/ kids in sports. The bathroom bill people I think are just plain ignorant of the consequence of what they’re asking for.

it's basically the same issue, but I think the youth sports focus is almost worse.

It's 100% the same issue and both involves a heavy dose of dehumanization. People who are allies should care enough about this issue to not allow bigotry against trans children and adults to be chalked up to indifference or simple ignorance. It's 2021, not 1981.

If someone were truly interested in the thoughts and feelings of trans people and those who love then, you can find all of the first hand accounts of the problems caused by anti trans rhetoric and legislation.

It's all about fear of others, periodt. Earlier in this thread I told the story of a trans man who spoke to the Iowa senate about the bathroom bill proposed here. The bill, required this person who presents and passes as a man, to use the girls bathroom at his daughters school. Now you would think if these people truly cared about children, like they say they do, they wouldn't want this to happen, nor would they want a woman using a boys bathroom. Nope, of course they didn't care, they powered right on. I'm certain that you'd find the same thing with 99% of people who support bills that don't allow trans people to live their lives, unbothered.

The idea of a trans person predating on a kid ina bathroom is just as far fetched as a trans child taking advantage of their gender to gain an advantage in a sport. That's a face, but facts don't matter when fear ave hatred drive your mindset.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 05:33:40 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex. 

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/trans-kids-socially-transition-study-529f34c1bb3b/

https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext
Man.. just socially transitioning for a kid sounds like it would be absolutely brutal. Kids can definitely be assholes, so can adults though I mean look at dax.

yeah no crap. I think adults are probably worse because kids are assholes to all kids.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on March 31, 2021, 05:44:28 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex.

I didn't read the links rusty posted but I'm going to post personally about this. Anyone who has been on this board for more than about 20 minutes knows I talk about my kids, a lot. Many people on this board have met one or two of my children. What no one knows on this board, well until now, is that my oldest child have been struggling with her gender identity for a few years now. What I can tell you for a lock stock fact is that children with gender identity issues have no thoughts about sex or sexual attraction. It's about how they feel about themselves. I know this about my child and about other children with gender identity issues I've been around.

I've also told the story of the youngest transgender kid I've been around and it was a 6 year old boy, born a girl. I don't have that job anymore but I can tell you that kid, at least 6-10 years old, didn't have a single thought about who he was attracted to.

We don't know what's going to happen with our daughter. She was born our daughter and she remains our daughter, until she decides being our daughter isn't what she wants anymore. We have open communication with her, like the day she came home and told us she was androgynous and we had to explain to her what that means. She really didn't know, it was something one of her friends said.

The irony in all of this, especially with trans children is that our society's insistence on assigning gender roles to a kid, even before they are born, even with names, all of our kids have very gender specific names, certainly can't help kids when it comes to gender identity. We tell our kids how they should think and what they should like, is it any surprise that a kid who doesn't confirm to our norms is confused about who they are?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 07:05:37 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex.

I didn't read the links rusty posted but I'm going to post personally about this. Anyone who has been on this board for more than about 20 minutes knows I talk about my kids, a lot. Many people on this board have met one or two of my children. What no one knows on this board, well until now, is that my oldest child have been struggling with her gender identity for a few years now. What I can tell you for a lock stock fact is that children with gender identity issues have no thoughts about sex or sexual attraction. It's about how they feel about themselves. I know this about my child and about other children with gender identity issues I've been around.

I've also told the story of the youngest transgender kid I've been around and it was a 6 year old boy, born a girl. I don't have that job anymore but I can tell you that kid, at least 6-10 years old, didn't have a single thought about who he was attracted to.

We don't know what's going to happen with our daughter. She was born our daughter and she remains our daughter, until she decides being our daughter isn't what she wants anymore. We have open communication with her, like the day she came home and told us she was androgynous and we had to explain to her what that means. She really didn't know, it was something one of her friends said.

The irony in all of this, especially with trans children is that our society's insistence on assigning gender roles to a kid, even before they are born, even with names, all of our kids have very gender specific names, certainly can't help kids when it comes to gender identity. We tell our kids how they should think and what they should like, is it any surprise that a kid who doesn't confirm to our norms is confused about who they are?

that's definitely tough. I highly recommend everyone read this thread (I think I've shared one of these before but it's very informative):

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 31, 2021, 08:08:21 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex.

I didn't read the links rusty posted but I'm going to post personally about this. Anyone who has been on this board for more than about 20 minutes knows I talk about my kids, a lot. Many people on this board have met one or two of my children. What no one knows on this board, well until now, is that my oldest child have been struggling with her gender identity for a few years now. What I can tell you for a lock stock fact is that children with gender identity issues have no thoughts about sex or sexual attraction. It's about how they feel about themselves. I know this about my child and about other children with gender identity issues I've been around.

I've also told the story of the youngest transgender kid I've been around and it was a 6 year old boy, born a girl. I don't have that job anymore but I can tell you that kid, at least 6-10 years old, didn't have a single thought about who he was attracted to.

We don't know what's going to happen with our daughter. She was born our daughter and she remains our daughter, until she decides being our daughter isn't what she wants anymore. We have open communication with her, like the day she came home and told us she was androgynous and we had to explain to her what that means. She really didn't know, it was something one of her friends said.

The irony in all of this, especially with trans children is that our society's insistence on assigning gender roles to a kid, even before they are born, even with names, all of our kids have very gender specific names, certainly can't help kids when it comes to gender identity. We tell our kids how they should think and what they should like, is it any surprise that a kid who doesn't confirm to our norms is confused about who they are?

that's definitely tough. I highly recommend everyone read this thread (I think I've shared one of these before but it's very informative):

At 5, really? This is where I have a hard time. Kids at that age are very impressionable and a product a lot of the times of the environment they grow up in. Not saying that this kid might be trans at that age but holy crap
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 08:15:24 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex.

I didn't read the links rusty posted but I'm going to post personally about this. Anyone who has been on this board for more than about 20 minutes knows I talk about my kids, a lot. Many people on this board have met one or two of my children. What no one knows on this board, well until now, is that my oldest child have been struggling with her gender identity for a few years now. What I can tell you for a lock stock fact is that children with gender identity issues have no thoughts about sex or sexual attraction. It's about how they feel about themselves. I know this about my child and about other children with gender identity issues I've been around.

I've also told the story of the youngest transgender kid I've been around and it was a 6 year old boy, born a girl. I don't have that job anymore but I can tell you that kid, at least 6-10 years old, didn't have a single thought about who he was attracted to.

We don't know what's going to happen with our daughter. She was born our daughter and she remains our daughter, until she decides being our daughter isn't what she wants anymore. We have open communication with her, like the day she came home and told us she was androgynous and we had to explain to her what that means. She really didn't know, it was something one of her friends said.

The irony in all of this, especially with trans children is that our society's insistence on assigning gender roles to a kid, even before they are born, even with names, all of our kids have very gender specific names, certainly can't help kids when it comes to gender identity. We tell our kids how they should think and what they should like, is it any surprise that a kid who doesn't confirm to our norms is confused about who they are?

that's definitely tough. I highly recommend everyone read this thread (I think I've shared one of these before but it's very informative):

At 5, really? This is where I have a hard time. Kids at that age are very impressionable and a product a lot of the times of the environment they grow up in. Not saying that this kid might be trans at that age but holy crap

why is it hard for you? It's typical.

Quote
The study findings revealed that 73% of the transgender women and 78% of the transgender men first experienced gender dysphoria by age 7.

...
The study authors also sought to compare the age of earliest general – non-gender-related – memories with the age of participants’ first gender dysphoria experiences. The study results showed that the mean age of the transgender women’s earliest general memory and first experience of gender dysphoria were 4.5 and 6.7 years, respectively. For transgender men they were 4.7 and 6.2 years, respectively.
...
“All of the study participants came to my clinic asking for surgery and every one of them said they experienced gender dysphoria around the same early age,” Garcia said. “What they experienced earlier in life was not a ‘passing phase,’ which is often suggested about transgender people seeking surgery. They knew exactly when their gender dysphoria started. It’s like asking about your mom’s birthdate – you just know it.”

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/most-gender-dysphoria-established-by-age-7-study-finds/
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on March 31, 2021, 08:32:43 PM
are the parents doing these kids a favor by letting them transition at a younger age considering the frontal cortex isn't fully developed until 25? there are also plenty of stories of he then she then back to he again.. some kids, probably most are trying to find themselves at that age.

I think they absolutely are when it comes to social transition. Medical transition should be (and is) more carefully considered but there is quite a bit of study supporting puberty suppression to give them more time. Still, most kids aren't trying to find their gender identity as adolescents/teens even if they are trying to "find themselves".
Could be the case, have their been studies on that? I could see a kid being confused with what sexually arouses them at that pivotal age maybe homosexual thoughts and then with thinking that way believing that they should've been born the other sex.

I didn't read the links rusty posted but I'm going to post personally about this. Anyone who has been on this board for more than about 20 minutes knows I talk about my kids, a lot. Many people on this board have met one or two of my children. What no one knows on this board, well until now, is that my oldest child have been struggling with her gender identity for a few years now. What I can tell you for a lock stock fact is that children with gender identity issues have no thoughts about sex or sexual attraction. It's about how they feel about themselves. I know this about my child and about other children with gender identity issues I've been around.

I've also told the story of the youngest transgender kid I've been around and it was a 6 year old boy, born a girl. I don't have that job anymore but I can tell you that kid, at least 6-10 years old, didn't have a single thought about who he was attracted to.

We don't know what's going to happen with our daughter. She was born our daughter and she remains our daughter, until she decides being our daughter isn't what she wants anymore. We have open communication with her, like the day she came home and told us she was androgynous and we had to explain to her what that means. She really didn't know, it was something one of her friends said.

The irony in all of this, especially with trans children is that our society's insistence on assigning gender roles to a kid, even before they are born, even with names, all of our kids have very gender specific names, certainly can't help kids when it comes to gender identity. We tell our kids how they should think and what they should like, is it any surprise that a kid who doesn't confirm to our norms is confused about who they are?

that's definitely tough. I highly recommend everyone read this thread (I think I've shared one of these before but it's very informative):

At 5, really? This is where I have a hard time. Kids at that age are very impressionable and a product a lot of the times of the environment they grow up in. Not saying that this kid might be trans at that age but holy crap

why is it hard for you? It's typical.

Quote
The study findings revealed that 73% of the transgender women and 78% of the transgender men first experienced gender dysphoria by age 7.

...
The study authors also sought to compare the age of earliest general – non-gender-related – memories with the age of participants’ first gender dysphoria experiences. The study results showed that the mean age of the transgender women’s earliest general memory and first experience of gender dysphoria were 4.5 and 6.7 years, respectively. For transgender men they were 4.7 and 6.2 years, respectively.
...
“All of the study participants came to my clinic asking for surgery and every one of them said they experienced gender dysphoria around the same early age,” Garcia said. “What they experienced earlier in life was not a ‘passing phase,’ which is often suggested about transgender people seeking surgery. They knew exactly when their gender dysphoria started. It’s like asking about your mom’s birthdate – you just know it.”

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/most-gender-dysphoria-established-by-age-7-study-finds/
I’m not trying to belittle this study but no crap.. most kids probably at that age had another kid of the other sex they idolized or for one reason or another thought life would be easier as a girl if even for an instance. (Yes I read the passing phase) so what does that really tell us anyway? Did there parents encourage them to follow through on it more, were they truly trans, what other factors could be involved?
It’s interesting for sure and I do like the open dialogue. You can’t also discount the people that have transitioned and the transitioned back while bringing this up imo. Tons of factors involved
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 09:00:08 PM
I’m not trying to belittle this study but no crap.. most kids probably at that age had another kid of the other sex they idolized or for one reason or another thought life would be easier as a girl if even for an instance. (Yes I read the passing phase) so what does that really tell us anyway? Did there parents encourage them to follow through on it more, were they truly trans, what other factors could be involved?
It’s interesting for sure and I do like the open dialogue. You can’t also discount the people that have transitioned and the transitioned back while bringing this up imo. Tons of factors involved

In the study most were in their 20's when they medically transitioned so I'm guessing they spent some time thinking about it. It's not a passing fad of idolizing another kid, it's who they are and it's permanent for the most part.

do you have data on people who have transitioned and transitioned back? How often does it happen?
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on March 31, 2021, 09:05:58 PM
Yeah I think what YLA should really be asking is how many kids had strong gender dysmorphia at 5 and grew out of it. My take is you’re conflating a rare phenomenon of gender dysmorphia with a practically universal trait in kids of indulging incredible imagination.

Personally I haven’t experienced anything close to it IRL, but as a new-ish parent I really don’t think it should be hard to spot the difference.

And really that goes for the commentators on both sides who assume one way or the other that parents are getting it wrong. I have no doubt it happens, but I think it happens with such low frequency it’s really not an issue to be addressed by sweeping legislation. Any parent who legitimately gas lights their child into switching genders is definitely engaging in other abusive conduct worthy of a call to CPS.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on March 31, 2021, 09:55:19 PM
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on March 31, 2021, 10:07:53 PM
Is it John mulaney who talks about how all five year old boys are kind of gay?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 8manpick on April 01, 2021, 07:17:24 AM
Thanks for sharing MIR.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 12:15:41 PM
Yeah I think what YLA should really be asking is how many kids had strong gender dysmorphia at 5 and grew out of it. My take is you’re conflating a rare phenomenon of gender dysmorphia with a practically universal trait in kids of indulging incredible imagination.

Personally I haven’t experienced anything close to it IRL, but as a new-ish parent I really don’t think it should be hard to spot the difference.

And really that goes for the commentators on both sides who assume one way or the other that parents are getting it wrong. I have no doubt it happens, but I think it happens with such low frequency it’s really not an issue to be addressed by sweeping legislation. Any parent who legitimately gas lights their child into switching genders is definitely engaging in other abusive conduct worthy of a call to CPS.

I had absolutely no confusion about my gender or sexual preference as a child, at any point, I wasn't even curious as to what it's like to be a girl. YLA is conflating curiosity with feeling, it's definitely not the same. You're right it isn't hard to spot the difference between gender dysmorphia send a curious imagination, which is why we need to trust people who are raising their children. Also it's important to note that gender dysmorphia is the extreme side of that continuum and there's plenty between that and curiosity, it isn't an either or.

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: DQ12 on April 01, 2021, 12:24:56 PM
Is it John mulaney who talks about how all five year old boys are kind of gay?
Quote
I was definitely gay when I was a little boy. A lot of little boys are gay. You know, they're very flowy and they have very hard opinions on things. I don't mean that I was a sexually active gay man when I was a little boy, that's not what I mean. When I was a little boy, I was more like a 67-year-old gay man that's kind of over it sexually, you know. I was just like an old queen, I would just come out of the recess yard and be like, "Everyone get outta my way. I just wanna sit here and feed my birds."
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: 420seriouscat69 on April 01, 2021, 12:26:50 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 12:32:07 PM
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later. First of all, if it's just a curiosity or something that a kid will "grow out of," which is a joke, but I'll play along. What's wrong with actually letting the kid grow out of it while prepubescent? If the daughter of gentleman in the tweet decides at 10 that this isn't for her and she wants to be he again, then what's the issue? What's the harm? Kids are going to tease him because he's living as his birth gender?

I'd imagine that nearly every kid who transitions, does it, or some nebulous form of fluidity, for the rest of their lives. You think it's easier to make this transition in Kindergarten, 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade, or in middle school, high school, college, or in the workforce? This answer is very obvious, right?

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 12:32:46 PM
Thanks for sharing MIR.

Thank you for reading.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on April 01, 2021, 12:41:51 PM
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later.
Why do you believe that to be the case? I can definitely seeing this being an internal struggle for a person.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: dal9 on April 01, 2021, 12:45:16 PM

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 12:49:15 PM
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later.
Why do you believe that to be the case? I can definitely seeing this being an internal struggle for a person.

Yeah, the older you are the more the struggle is because the struggle is related to not how you feel about yourself but how others see you.

Because a 5 year old doesn't feel the weight of social expectations and norms the way someone older does. A 5 year old wouldn't feel discrimination the way a 15 year old would. A 5 year old who changes gender has to deal with peers feelings on it for about 3 weeks before he becoming she isn't something that is thought about or discussed like at all.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 01, 2021, 12:50:57 PM

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

yeah I bet way more parents drive their trans kids to suicide
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 12:51:39 PM

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

That's a very heavy thing to level on a parent, the standard needs to be a hell of a lot higher than "suspect as hell." What documentary are you referring to?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 12:52:17 PM

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

yeah I bet way more parents drive their trans kids to suicide

100%
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 01, 2021, 01:00:41 PM

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

That's a very heavy thing to level on a parent, the standard needs to be a hell of a lot higher than "suspect as hell." What documentary are you referring to?
FTR, the hypothetical was to illustrate that even if the conservative concern there was valid, it doesn’t require legislation to remedy.

And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on April 01, 2021, 01:03:50 PM
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cire on April 01, 2021, 01:06:33 PM
Can't fathom caring about someone's gender/gender reveal/someone else's opinion about any of it.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: dal9 on April 01, 2021, 01:20:06 PM

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

That's a very heavy thing to level on a parent, the standard needs to be a hell of a lot higher than "suspect as hell." What documentary are you referring to?

I want to say it was called "Growing Up Trans?" Less than a year ago?  HBO?  As I recall it was a mom really pushing the kid and the father was just like in a daze the whole time.

edit: google says i'm remembering either the title or the channel wrong
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: dal9 on April 01, 2021, 01:30:04 PM
found it, it was called Transhood (HBO)...it was the kid who had the same hair as that snitch Tekashi...
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on April 01, 2021, 02:12:55 PM
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later.
Why do you believe that to be the case? I can definitely seeing this being an internal struggle for a person.

Yeah, the older you are the more the struggle is because the struggle is related to not how you feel about yourself but how others see you.

Because a 5 year old doesn't feel the weight of social expectations and norms the way someone older does. A 5 year old wouldn't feel discrimination the way a 15 year old would. A 5 year old who changes gender has to deal with peers feelings on it for about 3 weeks before he becoming she isn't something that is thought about or discussed like at all.
I have a great friend.. his daughter was popular through school even the homecoming queen. He and his wife divorced and soon thereafter his daughter in college became his son.  Loves him dearly obviously.. I think the time has to be right for the person. And I definitely agree with with catastrophe's last post especially about parents and that doesn't just go form trans kids but in general with parents.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 01, 2021, 02:31:43 PM
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on April 01, 2021, 02:34:54 PM
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 01, 2021, 02:41:14 PM
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.

true, but it seems like you and catastrophe are implying that anyone giving kids freedom to express their gender at early ages are shitty parents, and plenty of data shows that they aren't. This isn't confusing at all for cis kids, it's confusing for trans kids and giving them freedom to express who they feel they are is positive.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: yoga-like_abana on April 01, 2021, 03:19:04 PM
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.

true, but it seems like you and catastrophe are implying that anyone giving kids freedom to express their gender at early ages are shitty parents, and plenty of data shows that they aren't. This isn't confusing at all for cis kids, it's confusing for trans kids and giving them freedom to express who they feel they are is positive.
I don't think we implied that at all. I think you inferred it which is ok #1cat
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 01, 2021, 03:24:28 PM
take it to the shitty parents thread!
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 01, 2021, 03:53:06 PM
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.
Yeah I mean, Mich you literally just posted that you believe a large number of parents have driven their children to suicide. If you think that’s a phenomenon unique to red states take it to the SF things thread.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 01, 2021, 04:13:47 PM
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.
Yeah I mean, Mich you literally just posted that you believe a large number of parents have driven their children to suicide. If you think that’s a phenomenon unique to red states take it to the SF things thread.

I don't think it's a large number, but I think it's much larger than the number of people who do damage to kids by forcing gender transition on kids too early or whatever you seem to be concerned with
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 01, 2021, 04:32:32 PM
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 10:25:36 PM
found it, it was called Transhood (HBO)...it was the kid who had the same hair as that snitch Tekashi...

Thank you dal, I'll check it out while Gonzaga are kicking the crap out of UCLA.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 10:34:36 PM
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

No, eff that, eff all that bullshit. There's research, and a fuckton of it related to rusty's point. Here's one
https://www.insider.com/trans-youth-avoid-suicidal-thoughts-depressioon-with-early-care-2020-9
Google transgender children suicide and have a rough ridin' field day with all the research.

Now find me one solitary piece of academic research or eff, let's lower the bar, give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created. Honestly, it's the stupidest rough ridin' thing I've heard this week, something I'd expect 7 to post from aggy. A parent willing their child into gender identity issues, lol. 1Cat  :jerk:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 01, 2021, 11:02:54 PM
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 12:06:24 AM
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

No, eff that, eff all that bullshit. There's research, and a fuckton of it related to rusty's point. Here's one
https://www.insider.com/trans-youth-avoid-suicidal-thoughts-depressioon-with-early-care-2020-9
Google transgender children suicide and have a rough ridin' field day with all the research.

Now find me one solitary piece of academic research or eff, let's lower the bar, give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created. Honestly, it's the stupidest rough ridin' thing I've heard this week, something I'd expect 7 to post from aggy. A parent willing their child into gender identity issues, lol. 1Cat  :jerk:
I mean if you want an anecdote, this was a pretty famous one: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50172907

But the most important thing to me is we have a lot to learn. Yes there are lots of surveys and anecdotes like the ones we’ve cited, but the scientific literature is always a bit slower to develop.

For example, is gender identity necessarily something you’re born with, or can it change suddenly late in life?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822150809.htm

Quote
"This kind of descriptive study is important because it defines a group and raises questions for more research," said study author Lisa Littman, an assistant professor of the practice of behavioral and social sciences at Brown's School of Public Health. "One of the main conclusions is that more research needs to be done. Descriptive studies aren't randomized controlled trials -- you can't tell cause and effect, and you can't tell prevalence. It's going to take more studies to bring in more information, but this is a start."

Does fully transitioning really improve mental health?

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Quote
While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups, the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

As illustrated in the article I posted at the top, everyone can find their villains in a given story. I don’t really think that’s a productive way to approach the issue, though.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on April 02, 2021, 12:33:27 AM
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2021, 11:06:01 AM
Well if we agree they’re both small numbers then take it to the common ground thread!

No, eff that, eff all that bullshit. There's research, and a fuckton of it related to rusty's point. Here's one
https://www.insider.com/trans-youth-avoid-suicidal-thoughts-depressioon-with-early-care-2020-9
Google transgender children suicide and have a rough ridin' field day with all the research.

Now find me one solitary piece of academic research or eff, let's lower the bar, give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created. Honestly, it's the stupidest rough ridin' thing I've heard this week, something I'd expect 7 to post from aggy. A parent willing their child into gender identity issues, lol. 1Cat  :jerk:
I mean if you want an anecdote, this was a pretty famous one: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50172907

That dad is a piece of crap, there's no evidence the kid was pressured into being transgender. The kid's twin brother, counselors, teachers, child protective services, and doctors all agreed the child was choosing to express as a girl and that it was the dad doing the pressuring.

(terrible format but here's some court transcripts):


I think we have plenty to learn, but the links you shared aren't related to social transition for young children, which is widely recommended by doctors and kind of what set off this conversation. I definitely agree that puberty delay and medical/surgical transition needs to be more carefully considered (and it typically is).
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 12:16:13 PM
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

And agree the surgery stuff is obviously different, but that correction is a good reminder of why peer review can be important before taking some studies as gospel.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 02, 2021, 12:31:51 PM
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Right, but you're asking someone who feels this way to explain why or how they feel this way, in the case of this conversation a child at that, when those of us who don't feel that can't explain why we don't. I think you're asking for an explanation because it's an unconventional feeling, but the conventional feeling doesn't come with an explanation either.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 02, 2021, 12:35:46 PM
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

And agree the surgery stuff is obviously different, but that correction is a good reminder of why peer review can be important before taking some studies as gospel.

So are you ditching this absurd narrative about parents forcing gender dysmorphia onto a child? I'm legit stunned that you don't know how stupid that sounds, I would never play devil's advocate with such a problematic thought.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 12:52:11 PM
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

And agree the surgery stuff is obviously different, but that correction is a good reminder of why peer review can be important before taking some studies as gospel.

So are you ditching this absurd narrative about parents forcing gender dysmorphia onto a child? I'm legit stunned that you don't know how stupid that sounds, I would never play devil's advocate with such a problematic thought.
I was responding to your request

Quote
give me even one documented even second hand account of the absurd fantasyland fable you created

While politely suggesting it was not a productive topic to explore.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on April 02, 2021, 12:57:48 PM
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Right, but you're asking someone who feels this way to explain why or how they feel this way, in the case of this conversation a child at that, when those of us who don't feel that can't explain why we don't. I think you're asking for an explanation because it's an unconventional feeling, but the conventional feeling doesn't come with an explanation either.

I definitely don't want it from a child.  That's why I separated out the quotes I did initially to just be about the inability of myself or someone who doesn't have any similar or analogous experience to perceive how this can be.  I haven't seen anything I can simply read that bridges what I'm missing.  So I'm not sure there's anything that could do that beyond someone, obviously an adult with a lot of patience, trying to educate me.

And I don't think it's the difference between an unconventional feeling vs. a conventional feeling.  From what I've gathered, you and I agree as to us "feeling" male, or right-handed, or black and white, that we don't "feel" that.  We know (?) we are male, right-handed, etc. b/c those things are defined to us by the physical characteristics. 

But there's obviously something beyond that "I am because of this piece of physical evidence" that I don't grasp what that is or how it comes to be.  Perhaps "feel" or "feeling" is the wrong word, but I'm using it from this:

Quote
Gender identity is how you feel inside and how you express your gender through clothing, behavior, and personal appearance. It’s a feeling that begins very early in life.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity

The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 02, 2021, 01:06:54 PM
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

I had a really long post about this but I can simplify it. Why do you need to be educated about how and or why a person who feels trapped in the wrong body feels the way that they do? I don't know what it feels like to be male either. I don't know what it feels like to be right handed, or black, or tall, I'm just all of those things. My empathy doesn't come with a requirement to understand, it's really born out of someone else's gender identity is none of my rough ridin' business and it annoys the crap out of me when other people make it their business.

I working off the assumption that there is no further explanation and I don't need one.

Because I’d like to understand. I’d be equally unable to wrap my head around your analogous examples. If a tall person felt or believed they were short and insisted they were short, I wouldn’t understand how they could feel that way about a physically evident thing. And if there were prominent numbers of people feeling like that to where it was part of lots of major societal issues, I’d want to try to understand that “unbelievable” subject matter.

You’re right, understanding isn’t a requirement to have empathy for the people, and I didn’t say it was.

Right, but you're asking someone who feels this way to explain why or how they feel this way, in the case of this conversation a child at that, when those of us who don't feel that can't explain why we don't. I think you're asking for an explanation because it's an unconventional feeling, but the conventional feeling doesn't come with an explanation either.

I definitely don't want it from a child.  That's why I separated out the quotes I did initially to just be about the inability of myself or someone who doesn't have any similar or analogous experience to perceive how this can be.  I haven't seen anything I can simply read that bridges what I'm missing.  So I'm not sure there's anything that could do that beyond someone, obviously an adult with a lot of patience, trying to educate me.

And I don't think it's the difference between an unconventional feeling vs. a conventional feeling.  From what I've gathered, you and I agree as to us "feeling" male, or right-handed, or black and white, that we don't "feel" that.  We know (?) we are male, right-handed, etc. b/c those things are defined to us by the physical characteristics. 

But there's obviously something beyond that "I am because of this piece of physical evidence" that I don't grasp what that is or how it comes to be.  Perhaps "feel" or "feeling" is the wrong word, but I'm using it from this:

Quote
Gender identity is how you feel inside and how you express your gender through clothing, behavior, and personal appearance. It’s a feeling that begins very early in life.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity

The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2021, 01:12:47 PM
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

nah, the judge just said the state shouldn't be interfering. (except they are because they left the couple with guidelines and a mediator for making medical decisions about the child). If his allegations were deemed valid it's unlikely the mom would have joint custody.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 01:17:00 PM
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

nah, the judge just said the state shouldn't be interfering. (except they are because they left the couple with guidelines and a mediator for making medical decisions about the child). If his allegations were deemed valid it's unlikely the mom would have joint custody.
A state shouldn’t be interfering in a custody dispute? The article I linked said the judge determined neither parent should be charged with abuse. I have a hard time seeing how you get to that conclusion if you totally believed one side over the other.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2021, 01:23:44 PM
Yeah the dad does not come across as credible in the stuff I’ve read, but the judge gave him some credit or it would not have overruled the jury’s verdict awarding mom sole custody.

nah, the judge just said the state shouldn't be interfering. (except they are because they left the couple with guidelines and a mediator for making medical decisions about the child). If his allegations were deemed valid it's unlikely the mom would have joint custody.
A state shouldn’t be interfering in a custody dispute? The article I linked said the judge determined neither parent should be charged with abuse. I have a hard time seeing how you get to that conclusion if you totally believed one side over the other.

I didn't clarify, the judge said the state shouldn't be interfering in the gender affirmation and medical decision making

Quote
“The state of Texas has no compelling interest to justify such interference… requiring the father to affirm the child and honor the child’s choices,” Judge Cooks said.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/10/24/judge-dallas-volatile-custody-case-gender-identity/
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on April 02, 2021, 02:37:30 PM
The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

:thumbs:  So that's a conclusion that could be reached, but I've been looking for more of the information on how it's reached.  What is the mechanism within us that "feels" our true gender, race, etc., distinct from basing it on the physical evidence?

I'd also be curious why society treats different examples of "feeling something other than what physical characteristics reflect" differently.  Relatively few rock with Rachel Dolezal's self-identification of race.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2021, 02:53:08 PM
The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

:thumbs:  So that's a conclusion that could be reached, but I've been looking for more of the information on how it's reached.  What is the mechanism within us that "feels" our true gender, race, etc., distinct from basing it on the physical evidence?

I'd also be curious why society treats different examples of "feeling something other than what physical characteristics reflect" differently.  Relatively few rock with Rachel Dolezal's self-identification of race.

my guess is because races don't "feel different" like genders do. You could argue race is just made up by society
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 03:56:02 PM
The answer might be that I just don't realize that I do indeed "feel" being male or right-handed or white, but that it's such an obvious thing to feel that I can't perceive a difference between feeling that and knowing it because of the physical traits.

That's exactly what I was attempting to express, great job. Brevity isn't a strength of mine.

:thumbs:  So that's a conclusion that could be reached, but I've been looking for more of the information on how it's reached.  What is the mechanism within us that "feels" our true gender, race, etc., distinct from basing it on the physical evidence?

I'd also be curious why society treats different examples of "feeling something other than what physical characteristics reflect" differently.  Relatively few rock with Rachel Dolezal's self-identification of race.

my guess is because races don't "feel different" like genders do. You could argue race is just made up by society
How is that different than gender?

Quote
As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2021, 04:41:39 PM
Gender isn't only a social construct
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on April 02, 2021, 05:11:47 PM
Gender isn't only a social construct

I'm sure there are entire volumes written on this, but my understanding is that it IS one's perception of how they fit into a social construct. (As opposed to the concept of biological sex. As always, the law lags behind in this regard.)

Put me in the camp of "what business of mine is it how individuals want and/or feel compelled to define themselves?" I could not care less, and any freedom loving American ought to feel the same. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a true patriot.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: star seed 7 on April 02, 2021, 05:19:54 PM
Hell yeah, git-r-done
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2021, 05:21:34 PM
Gender isn't only a social construct

I'm sure there are entire volumes written on this, but my understanding is that it IS one's perception of how they fit into a social construct. (As opposed to the concept of biological sex. As always, the law lags behind in this regard.)

Put me in the camp of "what business of mine is it how individuals want and/or feel compelled to define themselves?" I could not care less, and any freedom loving American ought to feel the same. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a true patriot.

do you think the state was right to let the dad dress up that girl as a boy? (in the "Save James" case)


also:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed

Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on April 02, 2021, 05:26:58 PM
I’m with spracs on this one. Its nobody’s business. I also appreciate the feigned outrage over the fair competition in women’s sports. I’d bet dollars to donuts the lawmakers screaming the loudest about defending the fairness of women’s sports couldn’t name 5 current WNBA players (or any other professional women athletes for that matter) bc they don’t actually give a flying eff about women’s sports but I think most people know that’s not what motivates them
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Spracne on April 02, 2021, 05:27:12 PM
Gender isn't only a social construct

I'm sure there are entire volumes written on this, but my understanding is that it IS one's perception of how they fit into a social construct. (As opposed to the concept of biological sex. As always, the law lags behind in this regard.)

Put me in the camp of "what business of mine is it how individuals want and/or feel compelled to define themselves?" I could not care less, and any freedom loving American ought to feel the same. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a true patriot.

do you think the state was right to let the dad dress up that girl as a boy? (in the "Save James" case)


also:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed

I don't feel a need to take a stance on it. I can say that the record in a court case does not always reflect reality, so I would be reluctant to even venture to form an opinion.

Also, I skimmed that article and did not find it very edifying. I stand by my true patriots stance. If freedom is to mean anything, it must include the freedom to define oneself.
Title: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 06:35:29 PM
If gender is more than how someone identifies relative to societal constructs, does that mean someone can objectively get their gender wrong (like people who mistakenly believe they are dead)?
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Cire on April 02, 2021, 06:49:49 PM
If gender is more than how someone identifies relative to societal constructs, does that mean someone can objectively get their gender wrong (like people who mistakenly believe they are dead)?
I think you’re confusing gender with sexual preference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2021, 06:51:53 PM
If gender is more than how someone identifies relative to societal constructs, does that mean someone can objectively get their gender wrong (like people who mistakenly believe they are dead)?
I think you’re confusing gender with sexual preference


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was referencing the opinion piece Mich posted.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 02, 2021, 09:33:59 PM
The difference is that Dolezal was perceived to be doing the switch as a grift and she could pass as a white woman whenever it was convenient. For instance she had white listed as her race on her drivers license. Tough to claim that you're black when you can't even list it on your drivers license. She was cosplaying. I think the fact that she was the NAACP chapter president made it noteworthy.

If she was cosplaying a transwoman while working for the Trevor Project then was publicly caught also presenting as a cisgender male, she would be dragged just as much.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: sys on April 03, 2021, 12:37:19 AM
The difference is that Dolezal was perceived to be doing the switch as a grift and she could pass as a white woman whenever it was convenient. For instance she had white listed as her race on her drivers license. Tough to claim that you're black when you can't even list it on your drivers license. She was cosplaying. I think the fact that she was the NAACP chapter president made it noteworthy.

that simply speaks to how others perceived dolezal.  and if i'm not mistaken there are still states where trans individuals can not receive id that corresponds to their preferred gender.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 03, 2021, 09:45:57 AM
The difference is that Dolezal was perceived to be doing the switch as a grift and she could pass as a white woman whenever it was convenient. For instance she had white listed as her race on her drivers license. Tough to claim that you're black when you can't even list it on your drivers license. She was cosplaying. I think the fact that she was the NAACP chapter president made it noteworthy.

that simply speaks to how others perceived dolezal.  and if i'm not mistaken there are still states where trans individuals can not receive id that corresponds to their preferred gender.

It speaks to how others see her because it's how she lived her life, she was sometimes white sometimes black. I suppose if there was some racial equivalent of gender fluidity/nonconforming then she could claim that, but there isn't and she didn't. Once she got exposed she didn't try to make a claim that she's actually black, she admitted to what she did wrong.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 03, 2021, 10:10:04 AM
To Trim’s original question, there is at least some scholarship on the idea of being “transracial.”

Still far less accepted (and much rarer) than transgender identification.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/nyu-professor-naacp-rachel-dolezal/

Quote
But NYU sociology professor Ann Morning told CBS2’s Jiang that just like some people are transgender, others may be trans-racial – identifying more with a race other than their own.

Dolezal grew up with four adopted black siblings, and was briefly married to a black man.

“We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances,” Morning said.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 03, 2021, 10:28:18 AM
To Trim’s original question, there is at least some scholarship on the idea of being “transracial.”

Still far less accepted (and much rarer) than transgender identification.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/nyu-professor-naacp-rachel-dolezal/

Quote
But NYU sociology professor Ann Morning told CBS2’s Jiang that just like some people are transgender, others may be trans-racial – identifying more with a race other than their own.

Dolezal grew up with four adopted black siblings, and was briefly married to a black man.

“We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances,” Morning said.

Where's the "scholarship," it certainly isn't in that quote or article, that's a simple opinion, that's parsed with "may be."

Look at Dolezal's answers to the questions there, she's cagey because she doesn't have actual answers, while we don't understand "I've always felt like I was a boy" it is in fact an answer.
"Julia, you have indicated you're a female but we've found you were born a male named Jerry, can you explain that."
"What? I don't understand the question. I don't acknowledge the term female, I'm a chick"
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on April 03, 2021, 11:15:07 AM
Dolezal's grift aspects makes her a bad example, but here was the article I looked at yesterday that had the most about both her specific history and the skepticism about her along with stacking her up to transgender people.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Trim on April 03, 2021, 11:16:32 AM
So then trying to find a different comparison, I've already looked up the contrasts between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria - I'm learning all kinds of new lingo! - and it still reads as somewhat circular.  The distinction seems to come down to that on one hand people are seeing something false and that it's thus a mental illness, but as to gender they know their true gender identity and thus they have a natural dissatisfaction with the physical parts not matching.

I'm not seeing anything that points me to the natural internal mechanism by which any of us "feel" our gender identity in a way distinct from "knowing" it being based on physical parts.  There's just a presumption that such mechanism (?) exists as to gender, but not as to race or other non-gender-related physical attributes.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 03, 2021, 11:37:20 AM
To Trim’s original question, there is at least some scholarship on the idea of being “transracial.”

Still far less accepted (and much rarer) than transgender identification.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/12/nyu-professor-naacp-rachel-dolezal/

Quote
But NYU sociology professor Ann Morning told CBS2’s Jiang that just like some people are transgender, others may be trans-racial – identifying more with a race other than their own.

Dolezal grew up with four adopted black siblings, and was briefly married to a black man.

“We’re getting more and more used to the idea that people’s racial affiliation and identity and sense of belonging can change, or can vary, with different circumstances,” Morning said.

Where's the "scholarship," it certainly isn't in that quote or article, that's a simple opinion, that's parsed with "may be."

Well I certainly didn’t mean to suggest there were peer reviewed studies if that’s your conception of scholarship. It’s the viewpoint of a sociology professor who has surveyed the landscape and thinks though these kinds of issues a lot more than you or I. Obviously it’s a very new concept in comparison to being transgender.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: Kat Kid on April 04, 2021, 10:01:11 AM
I don’t think people being furries or really in to anime is evidence of being trans-animal or trans-racial.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: catastrophe on April 04, 2021, 10:16:33 AM
I don’t follow your point. I don’t think drag queens are evidence of people being transgender either.
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 05, 2021, 03:10:11 PM
 :surprised:
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: memphis on April 05, 2021, 03:22:10 PM
Other stuff they passed and were signed, I do agree that the one he vetoed is worse.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/arkansas-governor-signs-bill-allowing-medical-workers-to-refuse-treatment-to-lgbtq-people
Title: Re: Gender Issues
Post by: MakeItRain on April 05, 2021, 03:31:39 PM
Other stuff they passed and were signed, I do agree that the one he vetoed is worse.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/arkansas-governor-signs-bill-allowing-medical-workers-to-refuse-treatment-to-lgbtq-people

I was more shocked at the language he used.

The bill he did sign, allowing health care workers to refuse to treat someone they deem lgtbq, is abhorrent. However, it has zero chance in holding up in court. He mentioned the bill he vetoed having an adverse effect on the metal health of children but he signs this bill risking the physical and mental health of kids and adults. It's weird.