Author Topic: Gender Issues  (Read 43266 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #600 on: March 31, 2021, 09:00:08 PM »
I’m not trying to belittle this study but no crap.. most kids probably at that age had another kid of the other sex they idolized or for one reason or another thought life would be easier as a girl if even for an instance. (Yes I read the passing phase) so what does that really tell us anyway? Did there parents encourage them to follow through on it more, were they truly trans, what other factors could be involved?
It’s interesting for sure and I do like the open dialogue. You can’t also discount the people that have transitioned and the transitioned back while bringing this up imo. Tons of factors involved

In the study most were in their 20's when they medically transitioned so I'm guessing they spent some time thinking about it. It's not a passing fad of idolizing another kid, it's who they are and it's permanent for the most part.

do you have data on people who have transitioned and transitioned back? How often does it happen?

Offline catastrophe

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Gender Issues
« Reply #601 on: March 31, 2021, 09:05:58 PM »
Yeah I think what YLA should really be asking is how many kids had strong gender dysmorphia at 5 and grew out of it. My take is you’re conflating a rare phenomenon of gender dysmorphia with a practically universal trait in kids of indulging incredible imagination.

Personally I haven’t experienced anything close to it IRL, but as a new-ish parent I really don’t think it should be hard to spot the difference.

And really that goes for the commentators on both sides who assume one way or the other that parents are getting it wrong. I have no doubt it happens, but I think it happens with such low frequency it’s really not an issue to be addressed by sweeping legislation. Any parent who legitimately gas lights their child into switching genders is definitely engaging in other abusive conduct worthy of a call to CPS.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #602 on: March 31, 2021, 09:55:19 PM »
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

Offline DQ12

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #603 on: March 31, 2021, 10:07:53 PM »
Is it John mulaney who talks about how all five year old boys are kind of gay?


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Offline 8manpick

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #604 on: April 01, 2021, 07:17:24 AM »
Thanks for sharing MIR.
:adios:

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #605 on: April 01, 2021, 12:15:41 PM »
Yeah I think what YLA should really be asking is how many kids had strong gender dysmorphia at 5 and grew out of it. My take is you’re conflating a rare phenomenon of gender dysmorphia with a practically universal trait in kids of indulging incredible imagination.

Personally I haven’t experienced anything close to it IRL, but as a new-ish parent I really don’t think it should be hard to spot the difference.

And really that goes for the commentators on both sides who assume one way or the other that parents are getting it wrong. I have no doubt it happens, but I think it happens with such low frequency it’s really not an issue to be addressed by sweeping legislation. Any parent who legitimately gas lights their child into switching genders is definitely engaging in other abusive conduct worthy of a call to CPS.

I had absolutely no confusion about my gender or sexual preference as a child, at any point, I wasn't even curious as to what it's like to be a girl. YLA is conflating curiosity with feeling, it's definitely not the same. You're right it isn't hard to spot the difference between gender dysmorphia send a curious imagination, which is why we need to trust people who are raising their children. Also it's important to note that gender dysmorphia is the extreme side of that continuum and there's plenty between that and curiosity, it isn't an either or.

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

Offline DQ12

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #606 on: April 01, 2021, 12:24:56 PM »
Is it John mulaney who talks about how all five year old boys are kind of gay?
Quote
I was definitely gay when I was a little boy. A lot of little boys are gay. You know, they're very flowy and they have very hard opinions on things. I don't mean that I was a sexually active gay man when I was a little boy, that's not what I mean. When I was a little boy, I was more like a 67-year-old gay man that's kind of over it sexually, you know. I was just like an old queen, I would just come out of the recess yard and be like, "Everyone get outta my way. I just wanna sit here and feed my birds."


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Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #607 on: April 01, 2021, 12:26:50 PM »
 :lol:

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #608 on: April 01, 2021, 12:32:07 PM »
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later. First of all, if it's just a curiosity or something that a kid will "grow out of," which is a joke, but I'll play along. What's wrong with actually letting the kid grow out of it while prepubescent? If the daughter of gentleman in the tweet decides at 10 that this isn't for her and she wants to be he again, then what's the issue? What's the harm? Kids are going to tease him because he's living as his birth gender?

I'd imagine that nearly every kid who transitions, does it, or some nebulous form of fluidity, for the rest of their lives. You think it's easier to make this transition in Kindergarten, 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade, or in middle school, high school, college, or in the workforce? This answer is very obvious, right?

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #609 on: April 01, 2021, 12:32:46 PM »
Thanks for sharing MIR.

Thank you for reading.

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #610 on: April 01, 2021, 12:41:51 PM »
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later.
Why do you believe that to be the case? I can definitely seeing this being an internal struggle for a person.

Offline dal9

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #611 on: April 01, 2021, 12:45:16 PM »

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #612 on: April 01, 2021, 12:49:15 PM »
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later.
Why do you believe that to be the case? I can definitely seeing this being an internal struggle for a person.

Yeah, the older you are the more the struggle is because the struggle is related to not how you feel about yourself but how others see you.

Because a 5 year old doesn't feel the weight of social expectations and norms the way someone older does. A 5 year old wouldn't feel discrimination the way a 15 year old would. A 5 year old who changes gender has to deal with peers feelings on it for about 3 weeks before he becoming she isn't something that is thought about or discussed like at all.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #613 on: April 01, 2021, 12:50:57 PM »

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

yeah I bet way more parents drive their trans kids to suicide

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #614 on: April 01, 2021, 12:51:39 PM »

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

That's a very heavy thing to level on a parent, the standard needs to be a hell of a lot higher than "suspect as hell." What documentary are you referring to?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #615 on: April 01, 2021, 12:52:17 PM »

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

yeah I bet way more parents drive their trans kids to suicide

100%

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #616 on: April 01, 2021, 01:00:41 PM »

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

That's a very heavy thing to level on a parent, the standard needs to be a hell of a lot higher than "suspect as hell." What documentary are you referring to?
FTR, the hypothetical was to illustrate that even if the conservative concern there was valid, it doesn’t require legislation to remedy.

And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

Offline Trim

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #617 on: April 01, 2021, 01:03:50 PM »
Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise.

I'm trying to not pass judgment on this stuff, because how hypocritical would I be, right? But man, it's so easy to just listen to people with experience and let their experiences inform your thinking. Every single "I don't get" or "that can't be true" is directly related to not having that experience and then not believing those that do.

I'm def an I-don't-get-it'r or I-can't-wrap-my-head-around-it'r, I'm sure because I have no knowledge myself or from anyone I know of the concept of feeling anything gender-wise other than sex-wise as defined by physical attributes.  Like, I don't recognize me "feeling" male; I just know I'm male because there's a dick and 1-2 balls down there.  I can't sense any distinction between that knowledge (?) and any mental feeling about it.  I absolutely need someone who's gone/going through it to educate me to where I can bridge my mental gap between biological-but-doesn't-follow-traditional-norms-of-that-gender and knowing-they-are-a-different-gender-than-their-biology.

Offline Cire

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #618 on: April 01, 2021, 01:06:33 PM »
Can't fathom caring about someone's gender/gender reveal/someone else's opinion about any of it.

Offline dal9

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #619 on: April 01, 2021, 01:20:06 PM »

My issue with YLA is that he, you, seem to not be willing to take parents who have a child experiencing this at their word. Yes, it's unbelievable, it's unbelievable to parents too, even if you are the most progressive person in the world when it comes to gender. Our society is set up for gender and gender identity to look a certain way, when it doesn't happen that way, it's a surprise. And catastrophe, I'll also say that there isn't anyone "gas lighting their child into switching genders." Why would anyone do that, what's the upside? How would someone exactly pull that off?

i'm not saying this is common, but for clout...i remember at least one of the parents in that hbo doc was suspect as all hell

That's a very heavy thing to level on a parent, the standard needs to be a hell of a lot higher than "suspect as hell." What documentary are you referring to?

I want to say it was called "Growing Up Trans?" Less than a year ago?  HBO?  As I recall it was a mom really pushing the kid and the father was just like in a daze the whole time.

edit: google says i'm remembering either the title or the channel wrong
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 01:23:08 PM by dal9 »

Offline dal9

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #620 on: April 01, 2021, 01:30:04 PM »
found it, it was called Transhood (HBO)...it was the kid who had the same hair as that snitch Tekashi...

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #621 on: April 01, 2021, 02:12:55 PM »
Also I think it's worth noting that you probably see higher rates of transgender kids in more progressive households... Not because they are being influenced necessarily but because those are safer environments for trans kids to be themselves.

Transgenderism seems new because our society wouldn't accept them in the past -they would either need to hide it or get the crap beat out of them or kill themselves

For people balking at the age of kids transitioning at 5, 6, or whatever else someone determining what's too young, I'd offer that is definitely better for a person to figure this out earlier in life than much later.
Why do you believe that to be the case? I can definitely seeing this being an internal struggle for a person.

Yeah, the older you are the more the struggle is because the struggle is related to not how you feel about yourself but how others see you.

Because a 5 year old doesn't feel the weight of social expectations and norms the way someone older does. A 5 year old wouldn't feel discrimination the way a 15 year old would. A 5 year old who changes gender has to deal with peers feelings on it for about 3 weeks before he becoming she isn't something that is thought about or discussed like at all.
I have a great friend.. his daughter was popular through school even the homecoming queen. He and his wife divorced and soon thereafter his daughter in college became his son.  Loves him dearly obviously.. I think the time has to be right for the person. And I definitely agree with with catastrophe's last post especially about parents and that doesn't just go form trans kids but in general with parents.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #622 on: April 01, 2021, 02:31:43 PM »
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #623 on: April 01, 2021, 02:34:54 PM »
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #624 on: April 01, 2021, 02:41:14 PM »
And I do believe that parents can either intentionally or unintentionally condition their children to feel like they need to make some deliberate choice before their teenage years of whether they will grow up to be a man or woman.

Would that actually prompt their kids to switch genders when they otherwise wouldn’t have? I doubt it, but it could heap a lot of unnecessary anxiety on them at an already highly stressful time when, like you said, the reality is people actually experiencing some form of gender dysmorphia have unmistakable feelings about it that don’t really require any prompting from someone else.

you're creating quite a world here. You're worried about parents forcing kids into a deadline to make a choice about their gender and the anxiety that causes kids? I mean I suppose, again, if you had a shitty parent who didn't listen to doctors or therapists or their kids that could happen.
Theres a bevy of shitty parents.

true, but it seems like you and catastrophe are implying that anyone giving kids freedom to express their gender at early ages are shitty parents, and plenty of data shows that they aren't. This isn't confusing at all for cis kids, it's confusing for trans kids and giving them freedom to express who they feel they are is positive.