How In The Hell Did We Let Brad Underwood Get Away?

[sys]

kstate had a couple of opportunities to hire underwood.  no right to be mad that he's not still there when they didn't avail themselves earlier.

[MakeItRain]

Hypothetical.
Brad Underwood’s record his first three years at Illinois:

Year 1
Record 14–18
League 4–14 T–11th


Year 2
Record 12–21
League 7–13 T–10th


Year 3
Record 21–10
League 13–7 4th


Are people going to be happy with Coach Tang if he doesn’t do better than this his first two years?

For as much as people seemingly love Tang now, his rope is ultra short. They'll be more people expressing the Kietzman sentiment the first time he loses. If he doesn't make the tournament the first year we'll be right back at split fan sentiment. If he has a first two years like Brad had at Illinois most will want him gone.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Hypothetical.
Brad Underwood’s record his first three years at Illinois:

Year 1
Record 14–18
League 4–14 T–11th


Year 2
Record 12–21
League 7–13 T–10th


Year 3
Record 21–10
League 13–7 4th


Are people going to be happy with Coach Tang if he doesn’t do better than this his first two years?

For as much as people seemingly love Tang now, his rope is ultra short. They'll be more people expressing the Kietzman sentiment the first time he loses. If he doesn't make the tournament the first year we'll be right back at split fan sentiment. If he has a first two years like Brad had at Illinois most will want him gone.

I dunno, we don't exactly have the reputation of a school that gives coaches a short leash. Maybe Prince but I think most would agree it was the right decision to can him, esp with our most successful coach ever ready to calm the waters. Sure there will be pockets of the fan base that will be calling for his head if his first 2 years aren't very good, but I don't think he would realistically be on the hot seat unless it was like, 4 straight years of doodoo

[wetwillie]

Brad didn’t have the benefit of the transfer portal, I don’t think Tang will come anywhere close to a 12 win season next year.   I think MIR is right though, could get ugly for him if he hasn’t made the tourney after year 2.

[MakeItRain]

Hypothetical.
Brad Underwood’s record his first three years at Illinois:

Year 1
Record 14–18
League 4–14 T–11th


Year 2
Record 12–21
League 7–13 T–10th


Year 3
Record 21–10
League 13–7 4th


Are people going to be happy with Coach Tang if he doesn’t do better than this his first two years?

For as much as people seemingly love Tang now, his rope is ultra short. They'll be more people expressing the Kietzman sentiment the first time he loses. If he doesn't make the tournament the first year we'll be right back at split fan sentiment. If he has a first two years like Brad had at Illinois most will want him gone.

I dunno, we don't exactly have the reputation of a school that gives coaches a short leash. Maybe Prince but I think most would agree it was the right decision to can him, esp with our most successful coach ever ready to calm the waters. Sure there will be pockets of the fan base that will be calling for his head if his first 2 years aren't very good, but I don't think he would realistically be on the hot seat unless it was like, 4 straight years of doodoo

lolwut? We've had exactly two coaches in the social media era where this would be an issue, Prince and Weber and both were unmitigated disasters when it came to patience. Price had the fan base split from day one. Remember the crap storm when he benched Meier? People had some lame ass excuse about how he did it. oscar Weber won our first conference championship in 36 years and people acted like it didn't happen, some still don't.

Our fan base is almost the polar opposite of Iowa State and KU fans which in most cases is great, but we don't have expectations that don't match our success. Again this is great for the most part because it's the only way we're going to eventually have success.

Also dude is black, there are a lot of people who won't give him the same chances.

[catastrophe]

Idk how you call Weber a short leash. Prince to me was just stepping into a tough spot following a legend, plus the fact that, if I recall correctly, he never beat KU after three attempts. I’ll admit I was completely ignorant of the general fan base chatter around Prince, but I went to every home game Prince coached, sat in a student section that was pretty rocking, and I was still very ready for him to go because it felt like we had zero momentum and were nowhere near competing for the North.

[420seriouscat69]

He was 0-9 vs KU, Mizzou, and Nebraska and was a reach from day 1 and his record declined every year he was there.

[420seriouscat69]

Nobody wanted him either. We went out of our way to make a bad hire.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Hypothetical.
Brad Underwood’s record his first three years at Illinois:

Year 1
Record 14–18
League 4–14 T–11th


Year 2
Record 12–21
League 7–13 T–10th


Year 3
Record 21–10
League 13–7 4th


Are people going to be happy with Coach Tang if he doesn’t do better than this his first two years?

For as much as people seemingly love Tang now, his rope is ultra short. They'll be more people expressing the Kietzman sentiment the first time he loses. If he doesn't make the tournament the first year we'll be right back at split fan sentiment. If he has a first two years like Brad had at Illinois most will want him gone.

I dunno, we don't exactly have the reputation of a school that gives coaches a short leash. Maybe Prince but I think most would agree it was the right decision to can him, esp with our most successful coach ever ready to calm the waters. Sure there will be pockets of the fan base that will be calling for his head if his first 2 years aren't very good, but I don't think he would realistically be on the hot seat unless it was like, 4 straight years of doodoo

lolwut? We've had exactly two coaches in the social media era where this would be an issue, Prince and Weber and both were unmitigated disasters when it came to patience. Price had the fan base split from day one. Remember the crap storm when he benched Meier? People had some lame ass excuse about how he did it. oscar Weber won our first conference championship in 36 years and people acted like it didn't happen, some still don't.

Our fan base is almost the polar opposite of Iowa State and KU fans which in most cases is great, but we don't have expectations that don't match our success. Again this is great for the most part because it's the only way we're going to eventually have success.

Also dude is black, there are a lot of people who won't give him the same chances.

Fair enough, not sure I can really argue with most of your points other than to say I think there were several opportunities where oscar was under-preforming, and we had prime opportunities for better coaches (like Brad) but Gene stuck with him for... reasons, I guess. Also I concede your point that it would be foolish to underestimate the overt or latent racist tendencies of a good chunk of our fanbase, but you gotta admit skin color is pretty much the only thing the Prince and Tang hires have in common. Ok I guess they have one other thing in common in that there was a proven successful former kstater in the running for the job who didn't take it which some would find disappointing.
But the fans are almost unanimously excited about Tang. He's replacing a middling unpopular coach and bringing in an excitement we haven't seen in years. Prince was replacing the greatest and most beloved coach we've ever had and from day 1 he made it clear he was doing it his way, so when it didn't work out the fans were understandably displeased.

Last point regarding race...I think even the racist fans would agree that a black coach is more palatable for them in basketball than in football. Black coaches having success in basketball is increasingly more common whereas that barrier hasn't quite been broken through in football.

[HugeCat]

GTFOOH with your K state is racist bullshit. Harold Robinson was the first African-American in the Big Seven Conference to be awarded an athletic scholarship in 1950. Earl Woods broke the Big Eight Conference (then the Big Seven Conference) "color barrier" in baseball in 1951. Gene Wilson became the first black men's basketball player in the Big Seven Conference when he played at Kansas State in 1950. Dave Baker was the Big Eight Conference's first African-American head baseball coach. As of 2013 Baker was the Big 8/12's only African-American baseball coach. Honestly there’s a couple of people in this thread that sound pretty rough ridin' racist

[sonofdaxjones]

Some posters never fail to amaze.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

GTFOOH with your K state is racist bullshit. Harold Robinson was the first African-American in the Big Seven Conference to be awarded an athletic scholarship in 1950. Earl Woods broke the Big Eight Conference (then the Big Seven Conference) "color barrier" in baseball in 1951. Gene Wilson became the first black men's basketball player in the Big Seven Conference when he played at Kansas State in 1950. Dave Baker was the Big Eight Conference's first African-American head baseball coach. As of 2013 Baker was the Big 8/12's only African-American baseball coach. Honestly there’s a couple of people in this thread that sound pretty rough ridin' racist

Well I guess that settles it, then.

[MakeItRain]

Idk how you call Weber a short leash. Prince to me was just stepping into a tough spot following a legend, plus the fact that, if I recall correctly, he never beat KU after three attempts. I’ll admit I was completely ignorant of the general fan base chatter around Prince, but I went to every home game Prince coached, sat in a student section that was pretty rocking, and I was still very ready for him to go because it felt like we had zero momentum and were nowhere near competing for the North.

We're not talking about the athletic department, we're talking about fan sentiment. This message board, of all places, is ground zero of not giving oscar Weber a long leash and that wasn't even unique to here. I'm literally actively staring at a magnet calling him a clown that was made before he even coached a conference game.

You'll just have to take my word for it on Prince. Of course none of these things, oscar or Ron, were unanimous, but in both cases there was a sizable and loud minority that either never bought in or ejected very early. This isn't a conversation about results and we definitely don't need to relegislate whether or not he should have been fired. I could make the case that he deserved another year, but there's no way in hell I'd do that. Also the attendance was definitely down, including the student section, but that started with Snyder 1.0, not Prince.

[MakeItRain]

GTFOOH with your K state is racist bullshit. Harold Robinson was the first African-American in the Big Seven Conference to be awarded an athletic scholarship in 1950. Earl Woods broke the Big Eight Conference (then the Big Seven Conference) "color barrier" in baseball in 1951. Gene Wilson became the first black men's basketball player in the Big Seven Conference when he played at Kansas State in 1950. Dave Baker was the Big Eight Conference's first African-American head baseball coach. As of 2013 Baker was the Big 8/12's only African-American baseball coach. Honestly there’s a couple of people in this thread that sound pretty rough ridin' racist

I literally didn't say a single thing about "K-State is racist." I don't even know what that means. Didn't say it, didn't hint at it, didn't mean it. Even if I did, which I in no way did, those gentlemen you named as players and coaches have absolutely nothing at all to do with fan sentiment or administrative expectation.

Now if you can sit aside the hysterics for a second. I was speaking specifically to college and NFL black football coaches getting fired quicker than their peers. That's an inarguable, statistical fact, not a matter of option. Go ahead and Google "nfl black coaches winning percentage." Do the same with college football, it's all there in black and white. There isn't enough, or any that I can find, research on college basketball coaches but there's plenty of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that black coaches don't get the same leeway as their peers.

[HugeCat]

Yes, I probably overreacted. After rereading, I think references are made to individuals within a fanbase and not painting a fan base and an administration with a broad brush as racist. Apologies 

Very good points were made to my hypothetical regarding Tang getting the same amount of leeway that Brad did in his first two mediocre years, this was probably what triggered me. I take exception to this and it is probably nitpicking.

“Also I concede your point that it would be foolish to underestimate the overt or latent racist tendencies of a good chunk of our fanbase”

[stunted]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

[MakeItRain]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Those records don't connote rebuild and certainly not in the free transfer universe, particularly when we have an assistant who has been amazing at landing transfers at a similar program.

[EMAWzifried]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still hoping to retain Pack. He left the possibility of returning open, and hasn't had an in-person one-on-one with Tang. From what I've read, Pack heard from the NBA he has to be a point guard and wants a chance to play at his "natural position."

Leaving aside he is naturally an undersized shooting guard, I think Tang could sell the Baylor offense in of multiple point guards. Any coach of a high-profile team telling Pack he is going to point, isn't being honest with him.

As far as how patient fans are with Tang, it will depend on the product on the floor. If it looks like a well-coached hard-playing team that can punch above its weight, fans will be patient while waiting for talent.

[MakeItRain]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still hoping to retain Pack. He left the possibility of returning open, and hasn't had an in-person one-on-one with Tang. From what I've read, Pack heard from the NBA he has to be a point guard and wants a chance to play at his "natural position."

Leaving aside he is naturally an undersized shooting guard, I think Tang could sell the Baylor offense in of multiple point guards. Any coach of a high-profile team telling Pack he is going to point, isn't being honest with him.

As far as how patient fans are with Tang, it will depend on the product on the floor. If it looks like a well-coached hard-playing team that can punch above its weight, fans will be patient while waiting for talent.

Tang didn't have the meeting with Nijel because he and his family cancelled it. I love Nijel Pack and I want him to come back too, but if that's contingent on him starting at the point I don't want him back and he won't be back. Nowell Isa significantly better point guard than Nijel and Nijel is a significantly better shooting guard.

[cfbandyman]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still hoping to retain Pack. He left the possibility of returning open, and hasn't had an in-person one-on-one with Tang. From what I've read, Pack heard from the NBA he has to be a point guard and wants a chance to play at his "natural position."

Leaving aside he is naturally an undersized shooting guard, I think Tang could sell the Baylor offense in of multiple point guards. Any coach of a high-profile team telling Pack he is going to point, isn't being honest with him.

As far as how patient fans are with Tang, it will depend on the product on the floor. If it looks like a well-coached hard-playing team that can punch above its weight, fans will be patient while waiting for talent.

Tang didn't have the meeting with Nijel because he and his family cancelled it. I love Nijel Pack and I want him to come back too, but if that's contingent on him starting at the point I don't want him back and he won't be back. Nowell Isa significantly better point guard than Nijel and Nijel is a significantly better shooting guard.

No lies detected in any of that. Can't agree more.

[cfbandyman]

He was 0-9 vs KU, Mizzou, and Nebraska and was a reach from day 1 and his record declined every year he was there.

Nobody wanted him either. We went out of our way to make a bad hire.

Agree w/ the first, more or less disagree with the second. Now granted I was more naive during that timeframe but I felt Prince had a decent enough support and at least going to catbacker stuff back them few if any where anti-Prince. I think everyone was excited. It's just I think easy in retrospect to see him as not a good hire/coach, but I suppose trying to snag a real up and comer HC rather than an OC at a meh school should've been the tip off.

I feel your first, and very true, statement about 0-9 vs ku/mizz/nubbs was/is the reason he was fired and he should have been. It does suck for Prince that during that time ku and mizzou were in much better years, but nubbs had fallen off. I am fairly convinced had Prince been 4-5 or even 3-6 vs those same teams during that time, and at least 2 of those wins were vs ku, he would not have been fired, or at least not after 3 years. That, and missing two straight bowl games also broke the back.

[420seriouscat69]

All I meant by my second comment, is no other P5's we're banging on his door to come coach there. He was an offensive line coach at Virginia. It was definitely a weird hire, but I agree, we did rally behind him afterwards.

[ChiComCat]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still hoping to retain Pack. He left the possibility of returning open, and hasn't had an in-person one-on-one with Tang. From what I've read, Pack heard from the NBA he has to be a point guard and wants a chance to play at his "natural position."

Leaving aside he is naturally an undersized shooting guard, I think Tang could sell the Baylor offense in of multiple point guards. Any coach of a high-profile team telling Pack he is going to point, isn't being honest with him.

As far as how patient fans are with Tang, it will depend on the product on the floor. If it looks like a well-coached hard-playing team that can punch above its weight, fans will be patient while waiting for talent.

Tang didn't have the meeting with Nijel because he and his family cancelled it. I love Nijel Pack and I want him to come back too, but if that's contingent on him starting at the point I don't want him back and he won't be back. Nowell Isa significantly better point guard than Nijel and Nijel is a significantly better shooting guard.

I think Pack could play PG with Nowell off the floor, SG when they're together.  Perhaps transitioning Nijel to PG next year.  Even if Tang brings the dudes, I think we'll need to have one of the two of them on the court at all times.

[EMAWzifried]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still hoping to retain Pack. He left the possibility of returning open, and hasn't had an in-person one-on-one with Tang. From what I've read, Pack heard from the NBA he has to be a point guard and wants a chance to play at his "natural position."

Leaving aside he is naturally an undersized shooting guard, I think Tang could sell the Baylor offense in of multiple point guards. Any coach of a high-profile team telling Pack he is going to point, isn't being honest with him.

As far as how patient fans are with Tang, it will depend on the product on the floor. If it looks like a well-coached hard-playing team that can punch above its weight, fans will be patient while waiting for talent.

Tang didn't have the meeting with Nijel because he and his family cancelled it. I love Nijel Pack and I want him to come back too, but if that's contingent on him starting at the point I don't want him back and he won't be back. Nowell Isa significantly better point guard than Nijel and Nijel is a significantly better shooting guard.

I didn't say I wanted Pack at PG, in fact acknowledged that he is an undersized shooting guard. However, I think he could become more involved in running the offense as well as shooting, ie Baylor guards. Of course, it helps when you have an actual offense.

But I suppose I should just give up on the whole thing and accept Pack's gone.

[MakeItRain]

Without Nijel I’m ok with a multi-year rebuild. With him I’d have expected a ranked team. Given we gotta replace everyone, I don’t have any expectations anymore. But year 2 I’d hope we have a winning record at least, and some dudes ready for a big season in year 3.

Maybe I'm in denial, but I'm still hoping to retain Pack. He left the possibility of returning open, and hasn't had an in-person one-on-one with Tang. From what I've read, Pack heard from the NBA he has to be a point guard and wants a chance to play at his "natural position."

Leaving aside he is naturally an undersized shooting guard, I think Tang could sell the Baylor offense in of multiple point guards. Any coach of a high-profile team telling Pack he is going to point, isn't being honest with him.

As far as how patient fans are with Tang, it will depend on the product on the floor. If it looks like a well-coached hard-playing team that can punch above its weight, fans will be patient while waiting for talent.

Tang didn't have the meeting with Nijel because he and his family cancelled it. I love Nijel Pack and I want him to come back too, but if that's contingent on him starting at the point I don't want him back and he won't be back. Nowell Isa significantly better point guard than Nijel and Nijel is a significantly better shooting guard.

I didn't say I wanted Pack at PG, in fact acknowledged that he is an undersized shooting guard. However, I think he could become more involved in running the offense as well as shooting, ie Baylor guards. Of course, it helps when you have an actual offense.

But I suppose I should just give up on the whole thing and accept Pack's gone.

I know you didn't. I wasn't impressed with Pack at the point the times he did it last year, and I won't even hold his bungling of the last possession against flood aggie against him here either. He didn't seem dynamic at all when he was on the ball. At absolute best he's been a Will Spradling ball mover when he wasn't off the ball or trying to create his own shot. Maybe that could have had something to do with the pieces around him, but if he wants to be an NBA point guard, "my teammates weren't very good" won't sell, at all.