Author Topic: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive" + Bonus Content + Underwood  (Read 26351 times)

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Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2015, 12:23:13 PM »
I mean sure, I want to be a basketball dynasty too.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2015, 12:33:00 PM »
Its sad that in this day of age we have so many fans that still treat basketball like its the 90s. The atmosphere has changed and the stakes are too high to become complacent.

Granted, I'm likely more patient than almost any other gE poster and am willing to give coaches the time they need to succeed. I can see the rationale for giving oscar next season because he had a decent first two years here. But there should be serious concern with the direction of the program and next year is crucial for him being retained or let go as our head coach. I'm not advocating being lulled into accepting minor standards of improvement, the expectation should be an NCAA tournament next season because 2 year droughts can become 5 or 8 before you even know what happened.

The disappointment for this season should be great. No excuses for what will be our worst season since 2003. No finding moral victories in close losses. No glossing over suspensions and roster problems with a team mainly comprised of athletes this staff recruited. There should be a sense of urgency from our fan base and Currie should want that.


Offline Gooch

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2015, 01:48:13 PM »
Why didn't he just @goEMAW with this article. It's clear who is speaking to.

I think the the (assumed) prevailing thought on gE is picking up steam around the fan base.
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Offline Trim

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2015, 01:58:53 PM »
That wasn't the rationale.

Offline Yard Dog

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2015, 02:43:22 PM »
I think it all comes down to having an elite attitude. If we are chill with being mediocre and hoping our current situation will get better than we should do exactly what Mike T says. But, if we expect excellence, and define excellence as winning NCAA tournament games, you bet your britches that we shouldn't be happy with oscar's performance. It all comes down to how you define excellence.

My definition: NCAA tournament every year. Sweet 16 or better 75% of the time.
We have been to 4 S16's in 35 years... You see a road from <15%ish to >75%? Frank made the S16 during 20% of his seasons in MHK.

Exactly. I don't want to settle for what is easy, I want excellence. If we aren't achieving that high level from our current staff, we need to seek out and pay the person who can take us there.

But, since this is our hobby sport, if we are ok with being mediocre and winning against KU in Bramlage every few years. . .then we should stick with what we've got.
I applaud your commitment to excellence.

Would be interested in a list of programs that have made it to the NCAA and the S16 75% of the time over the past 10 years.

Not KU, UK, UNC, Duke or UL.  Yard Dog is a liar though.

I went ahead and actually crunched the numbers. The following stats are for the NCAA tournaments from 2004 - 2014.

Over the course of those ten years there have been 74 different teams in the Sweet 16. Of those 74, only 18 have an appearance % of 40% or above.

Sweet 16 appearance % (2004-2014)

40%
Syracuse
Washington
Villanova
Memphis
UCLA
Tennessee

50%
Xavier
UCONN
Arizona
Louisville
West Virginia
North Carolina
Kentucky
Florida
Ohio State

60%

Oddly no one made it exactly 6 out of 10 times.

70%
KU
Duke
Michigan State

So perhaps my idealism of 75% was a little too high. But a 50-60% appearance rate doesn't seem all that unreasonable as a goal for an elite program.

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on &quot;The Drive
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2015, 02:48:00 PM »
Perhaps

Offline #LIFE

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2015, 02:54:55 PM »
 :Carl:

Quote
Mike Tufano Mod  dcchiefcat • 39 minutes ago
It's not a matter of right and wrong. That's where the "discussion" has been derailed. There is no decision that will be made this year. oscar Weber will be the coach next year, and every K-State fan should desire success as a result. Unlike some fans, my purpose is not to prove whether or not I'm right, but what's best for K-State. If, for example, I disagree with the next football hire, I'll absolutely want to be proven wrong. Those who desire and delight in negative results to prove their point are not fans of K-State, but of themselves.

Offline j rake

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #157 on: February 12, 2015, 03:02:47 PM »
Granted, I'm likely more patient than almost any other gE poster and am willing to give coaches the time they need to succeed. I can see the rationale for giving oscar next season because he had a decent first two years here. But there should be serious concern with the direction of the program and next year is crucial for him being retained or let go as our head coach.

the more i think about it, i don't think oscar is a bad coach, at least as far as X's and O's, preparing teams, etc., is concerned. his reputation as being nothing more than a caretaker (winning with self's players at illinois, winning with frank's players at k-state) is probably unfair. the fact is, he built southern illinois into a very solid program (they largely improved five straight years until he took the illinois job), and his 2006 illinois team was every bit as good as the '04 team that made the NCAA title game. after 2006, he had two other top-20 level teams, and he did it with players he recruited.

i think the larger issue with oscar is that he's a horrible, unsteady, confidence-lacking "leader." i've never seen a coach talk more about body language than weber. this year, he's railed on marcus foster's body language. at the end of his tenure at illinois, it was meyers leonard's body language. before that, he hated the body language of his entire TEAM.

this was never more apparent than during the 2011 big ten conference tourney when weber's illinois team played michigan, led by super positive john beilein.

Quote from: from 2011
"We haven't been able to get over the hump," said Illinois coach oscar Weber. "I thought we were on a pretty good run. We were playing well. It was energized. It seemed like it was all clicking. Then just a couple of possessions and you could just see our body language change. We didn't have one guy that could step up and make a couple plays."

Compare that to the body language exhibited by the Wolverines (20-12), even when Illinois grabbed an 11-point halftime lead and parried every Michigan run for the first 12 minutes of the second half.

"Coach always talked about in the huddle keeping a 'yes' face no matter what the score is," said Michigan point guard Darius Morris, who led everyone with 17 points and 7 assists. "That means just positive energy."

earlier that same year, this was written by illinois writer lindsey willhite:

Quote
I’m not sure how much a coach’s body language matters to his players. To his team’s fan base. To a nation of fans with no dog in the hunt, but who tune in just to watch some hoops. All I know is, during almost every Illinois game, there’ll be a crucial possession or two where the shot clock starts running down and the Illini offense gets stuck in neutral and oscar Weber clasps his hands behind his head in a bit of body language that screams, “Oh, crud, I can just feel something’s going to go wrong here!” It happened again during a key juncture of No. 20 Illinois’ 52-49 loss at Indiana. Maybe the players didn’t notice. Maybe the fans in the stands and watching on TV didn’t notice. But it sure does seem that the Illini are playing like a team that can’t escape that “something’s about to go wrong” feeling.

Depending on whether your glass is half-full or half-empty, here’s what you need to know about Illinois’ season: When the game hasn’t been in doubt in the final minute, the Illini are 13-0. When the game has been up for grabs in the final minute, the Illini are 1-7. And the only win in that group was the Nov. 19 game against Maryland, when Illinois owned a 12-point lead with 5:37 to go and the Terps rallied to get within 2 with 7.3 seconds left. Now, you can spin that as, “Hey, these Illinois have taken everyone from No. 1 Ohio State to then-No. 9 Missouri to Texas down to the wire. That’s a team that can compete with anyone. It’s just snake-bit.” Or you can spin it as, “This team does not have what it takes to win games at the end.”

one of my biggest criticisms of weber over the years is that he's nothing more than a hope trafficker. "i hope we can play with this team," or "i think we might be able to give ourselves a chance," or "i'd like for us to be in position at the end." he doesn't exude confidence, his sideline demeanor is the worst of any coach i've ever seen, and yet...he probably spends countless hours behind closed doors telling his players they don't have any confidence and that their body language is poor...and the criticism likely isn't well received.

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2015, 03:03:01 PM »
Quote
Unlike some fans, my purpose is not to prove whether or not I'm right......If, for example, I disagree with the next football hire, I'll absolutely want to be proven wrong.


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #159 on: February 12, 2015, 03:11:33 PM »
Granted, I'm likely more patient than almost any other gE poster and am willing to give coaches the time they need to succeed. I can see the rationale for giving oscar next season because he had a decent first two years here. But there should be serious concern with the direction of the program and next year is crucial for him being retained or let go as our head coach.

the more i think about it, i don't think oscar is a bad coach, at least as far as X's and O's, preparing teams, etc., is concerned. his reputation as being nothing more than a caretaker (winning with self's players at illinois, winning with frank's players at k-state) is probably unfair. the fact is, he built southern illinois into a very solid program (they largely improved five straight years until he took the illinois job), and his 2006 illinois team was every bit as good as the '04 team that made the NCAA title game. after 2006, he had two other top-20 level teams, and he did it with players he recruited.

i think the larger issue with oscar is that he's a horrible, unsteady, confidence-lacking "leader." i've never seen a coach talk more about body language than weber. this year, he's railed on marcus foster's body language. at the end of his tenure at illinois, it was meyers leonard's body language. before that, he hated the body language of his entire TEAM.

this was never more apparent than during the 2011 big ten conference tourney when weber's illinois team played michigan, led by super positive john beilein.

Quote from: from 2011
"We haven't been able to get over the hump," said Illinois coach oscar Weber. "I thought we were on a pretty good run. We were playing well. It was energized. It seemed like it was all clicking. Then just a couple of possessions and you could just see our body language change. We didn't have one guy that could step up and make a couple plays."

Compare that to the body language exhibited by the Wolverines (20-12), even when Illinois grabbed an 11-point halftime lead and parried every Michigan run for the first 12 minutes of the second half.

"Coach always talked about in the huddle keeping a 'yes' face no matter what the score is," said Michigan point guard Darius Morris, who led everyone with 17 points and 7 assists. "That means just positive energy."

earlier that same year, this was written by illinois writer lindsey willhite:

Quote
I’m not sure how much a coach’s body language matters to his players. To his team’s fan base. To a nation of fans with no dog in the hunt, but who tune in just to watch some hoops. All I know is, during almost every Illinois game, there’ll be a crucial possession or two where the shot clock starts running down and the Illini offense gets stuck in neutral and oscar Weber clasps his hands behind his head in a bit of body language that screams, “Oh, crud, I can just feel something’s going to go wrong here!” It happened again during a key juncture of No. 20 Illinois’ 52-49 loss at Indiana. Maybe the players didn’t notice. Maybe the fans in the stands and watching on TV didn’t notice. But it sure does seem that the Illini are playing like a team that can’t escape that “something’s about to go wrong” feeling.

Depending on whether your glass is half-full or half-empty, here’s what you need to know about Illinois’ season: When the game hasn’t been in doubt in the final minute, the Illini are 13-0. When the game has been up for grabs in the final minute, the Illini are 1-7. And the only win in that group was the Nov. 19 game against Maryland, when Illinois owned a 12-point lead with 5:37 to go and the Terps rallied to get within 2 with 7.3 seconds left. Now, you can spin that as, “Hey, these Illinois have taken everyone from No. 1 Ohio State to then-No. 9 Missouri to Texas down to the wire. That’s a team that can compete with anyone. It’s just snake-bit.” Or you can spin it as, “This team does not have what it takes to win games at the end.”

one of my biggest criticisms of weber over the years is that he's nothing more than a hope trafficker. "i hope we can play with this team," or "i think we might be able to give ourselves a chance," or "i'd like for us to be in position at the end." he doesn't exude confidence, his sideline demeanor is the worst of any coach i've ever seen, and yet...he probably spends countless hours behind closed doors telling his players they don't have any confidence and that their body language is poor...and the criticism likely isn't well received.

I think this is a pretty good take on Weber. Its just a weird thing with him; he's had far too much success to be a terrible coach, but at the same time he's had far too much mediocre to be really good. It seems clear that Weber lacks the type of ego that most of the great coaches have, both in his demeanor and his language.


Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #160 on: February 12, 2015, 03:14:21 PM »


Over the course of those ten years there have been 74 different teams in the Sweet 16. Of those 74, only 18 have an appearance % of 40% or above.

Sweet 16 appearance % (2004-2014)

40%
Syracuse
Washington
Villanova
Memphis
UCLA
Tennessee

50%
Xavier
UCONN
Arizona
Louisville
West Virginia
North Carolina
Kentucky
Florida
Ohio State

60%

Oddly no one made it exactly 6 out of 10 times.

70%
KU
Duke
Michigan State

So perhaps my idealism of 75% was a little too high. But a 50-60% appearance rate doesn't seem all that unreasonable as a goal for an elite program.
Very interesting breakdown. Surprised to see Xavier, WVU, TN and Washington on the list. The 50+% group is elite.

Offline Mixed-Nutz

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #161 on: February 12, 2015, 03:33:59 PM »
oscar has won 5 conference championships while never being at the big dog school of his conference that is very good. The coaching job he did his first year at Kansas State was insane, he won a share of the conference championship with one low four star guy. That is just stupid. He has proven that he can be a really really good coach.

oscar couldn't solve this teams immaturities, team struggled to play hard early in the year. This team has been a mess with injuries and suspensions. But, Frank / Coaching transition didn't leave oscar in good longterm position, we have two upperclass men on this team. Neither of them are guards and both the undersized at their position. Solid players with limitations.

Next year if you assume that the main pieces stay and you should. He shouldn't get a break if one of his players leaves. The expectations should be high. We will have good experience at the guard position and oscar brought in guys higher on his recruiting board than the previous years. Need to finsh in the top half of the conference. It isn't about the tournament, it is greater than that. Our big Sophomore class has to be in position to make a run at the conference championship the following year.

Best part is if it doesn't work out. We are not in terrible position, we get go after Brad. I don't think he inherits a terrible roster.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2015, 03:35:51 PM »
oscar has won 5 conference championships while never being at the big dog school of his conference that is very good. The coaching job he did his first year at Kansas State was insane, he won a share of the conference championship with one low four star guy. That is just stupid. He has proven that he can be a really really good coach.

oscar couldn't solve this teams immaturities, team struggled to play hard early in the year. This team has been a mess with injuries and suspensions. But, Frank / Coaching transition didn't leave oscar in good longterm position, we have two upperclass men on this team. Neither of them are guards and both the undersized at their position. Solid players with limitations.

Next year if you assume that the main pieces stay and you should. He shouldn't get a break if one of his players leaves. The expectations should be high. We will have good experience at the guard position and oscar brought in guys higher on his recruiting board than the previous years. Need to finsh in the top half of the conference. It isn't about the tournament, it is greater than that. Our big Sophomore class has to be in position to make a run at the conference championship the following year.

Best part is if it doesn't work out. We are not in terrible position, we get go after Brad. I don't think he inherits a terrible roster.


Reasonable. Won't go over for most here, but I can see it.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2015, 03:37:08 PM »
But, Frank / Coaching transition didn't leave oscar in good longterm position

on rough ridin' opposite day

Offline j rake

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #164 on: February 12, 2015, 03:37:23 PM »
I think this is a pretty good take on Weber. Its just a weird thing with him; he's had far too much success to be a terrible coach, but at the same time he's had far too much mediocre to be really good. It seems clear that Weber lacks the type of ego that most of the great coaches have, both in his demeanor and his language.

unsurprisingly, his all-time against the spread record is 238-238.

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2015, 03:38:14 PM »
I think this is a pretty good take on Weber. Its just a weird thing with him; he's had far too much success to be a terrible coach, but at the same time he's had far too much mediocre to be really good. It seems clear that Weber lacks the type of ego that most of the great coaches have, both in his demeanor and his language.

unsurprisingly, his all-time against the spread record is 238-238.

unsurprisingly, the total for all coaches ever is exactly .500 as well

Offline Shooter Jones

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2015, 03:49:41 PM »

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on &quot;The Drive
« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2015, 03:52:00 PM »
This sophomore class will not sniff a conference title. Good grief.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2015, 03:53:00 PM »
Man, what fools Illinois were to fire this amazing basketball mind.  What were they thinking?   Good thing we snapped him up because I am sure there were schools lined up around the block for the droppings from the mighty Illinois basketball program.  I mean not meeting Illinois super insane expectations is one thing, but li'l ole KSU might just be the right fit for this dynamic basketball wizard.  The only way he could fail would be from events way outside of oscar's control.  We should all recognize how privileged we are as basketball fans to have this titan of the industry leading patrolling the sidelines.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2015, 03:53:31 PM »
oscar has won 5 conference championships while never being at the big dog school of his conference that is very good. The coaching job he did his first year at Kansas State was insane, he won a share of the conference championship with one low four star guy. That is just stupid. He has proven that he can be a really really good coach.

oscar couldn't solve this teams immaturities, team struggled to play hard early in the year. This team has been a mess with injuries and suspensions. But, Frank / Coaching transition didn't leave oscar in good longterm position, we have two upperclass men on this team. Neither of them are guards and both the undersized at their position. Solid players with limitations.

Next year if you assume that the main pieces stay and you should. He shouldn't get a break if one of his players leaves. The expectations should be high. We will have good experience at the guard position and oscar brought in guys higher on his recruiting board than the previous years. Need to finsh in the top half of the conference. It isn't about the tournament, it is greater than that. Our big Sophomore class has to be in position to make a run at the conference championship the following year.

Best part is if it doesn't work out. We are not in terrible position, we get go after Brad. I don't think he inherits a terrible roster.


To give oscar all the credit for the team his first year and Frank a lot of the blame for his team the third year is just stupid.

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2015, 03:54:10 PM »
he has had really good years and really poor years.  more than anything, he is a high variance coach.
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Offline ednksu

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #171 on: February 12, 2015, 03:54:19 PM »
I want to punch people who say K-State should expect to be in the top half of the league. 
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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #172 on: February 12, 2015, 03:57:12 PM »
I want to punch people who say K-State should expect to be in the top half of the league.


 :curse:

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #173 on: February 12, 2015, 04:00:03 PM »
Can you imagine the shake up in the college basketball coaching word if we *did* let oscar go?  Oh man!  The domino effect would be amazing!  Shock waves.  Which big time program do you think would snap him up first?  Louisiana Tech? Eastern Illinois? They might even fire their coach to get him!  Oh but if we are lucky maybe Mark Fox will ripe for us to go grab! 

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Re: Tim Fitzgerald just called us out on "The Drive
« Reply #174 on: February 12, 2015, 04:06:21 PM »
Where the eff are you getting 5 Big Ten championships from?