StL County Cops Shoot Teen

[Trim]

Again, the friend doesn't deny that Brown and the cop got in a physical struggle while the cop was still seated in his vehicle. So the question is, what's more believable? That Brown shoved the officer back into the vehicle as he was trying to get out, or that the officer decided to latch onto Brown and pull him into the vehicle from a seated position? That just doesn't make any sense. Even if the officer was pissed and behaving irrationally, you don't grab a big dude from a seated position - you get out of your vehicle to assert your authoritay. So up to that point I believe the cop.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Yeah, we don't know all of the details, but it sure sounds like there was more than 1 officer at the scene and we also know that this same police force arrested a journalist in a McDonalds for taking a photo. It sounds like the kid got violent with a police officer, so it's not as bad as the Trayvon Martin situation, but it's still pretty awful. I would like to see murder charges filed on the cop.

It's interesting that you think this is not as bad as the TM shooting because Brown (likely) attacked a cop, but it's actually just the opposite from a self-defense standpoint.

When it comes to justifiable shooting, the relevant question is not so much the preceding events (outside of illegal preceding events, and GZ was not breaking the law), but whether the shooter had a reasonable belief of imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death at the time of the shooting. In the TM case, the physical evidence (wounds to GZ head) and eyewitness testimony (TM on top) provided much greater support for GZ having such a belief. The cop appears to have a much weaker case due to eye witness testimony and the distance away from Brown at the time of the shooting.

I don't really care who has the stronger case. The cop killed a kid in the heat of the moment after being attacked. Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had done absolutely nothing wrong.

[WillieWatanabe]

so this was the wrong guy then?

[michigancat]

so this was the wrong guy then?

Yes, definitely the wrong guy

[ednksu]

Whats this about a robbery?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/08/15/340594634/ferguson-police-release-name-of-officer-who-shot-michael-brown

[Trim]

OMG that news conference and timeline

They had it in front of the quiktrip. Really? Really.

Missouri should've appointed the good cops to do all this too.

[CNS]

How does outside of a shove someone the back getting out of a car?

Rephrase the question, please.

Again, the friend doesn't deny that Brown and the cop got in a physical struggle while the cop was still seated in his vehicle. So the question is, what's more believable? That Brown shoved the officer back into the vehicle as he was trying to get out, or that the officer decided to latch onto Brown and pull him into the vehicle from a seated position? That just doesn't make any sense. Even if the officer was pissed and behaving irrationally, you don't grab a big dude from a seated position - you get out of your vehicle to assert your authoritay. So up to that point I believe the cop.

It also doesn't make sense why you shoot an unarmed assailant multiple times 35 feet away from you. So both stories are in doubt, but without more facts the best I can surmise is that Brown very stupidly attacked the cop, and the cop then very stupidly overreacted and shot a retreating Brown.

Can you honestly say you don't recognize grabbing someone and pulling them into you as a method of intimidation?   

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Yeah, we don't know all of the details, but it sure sounds like there was more than 1 officer at the scene and we also know that this same police force arrested a journalist in a McDonalds for taking a photo. It sounds like the kid got violent with a police officer, so it's not as bad as the Trayvon Martin situation, but it's still pretty awful. I would like to see murder charges filed on the cop.

It's interesting that you think this is not as bad as the TM shooting because Brown (likely) attacked a cop, but it's actually just the opposite from a self-defense standpoint.

When it comes to justifiable shooting, the relevant question is not so much the preceding events (outside of illegal preceding events, and GZ was not breaking the law), but whether the shooter had a reasonable belief of imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death at the time of the shooting. In the TM case, the physical evidence (wounds to GZ head) and eyewitness testimony (TM on top) provided much greater support for GZ having such a belief. The cop appears to have a much weaker case due to eye witness testimony and the distance away from Brown at the time of the shooting.

I don't really care who has the stronger case. The cop killed a kid in the heat of the moment after being attacked. Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had done absolutely nothing wrong.

Putting the legal case aside, the Brown shooting is also potentially worse from a "moral" or "justice" standpoint or whatever you want to call it. A cop shooting someone thirty five feet away "in the heat of the moment" isn't right, period. By contrast, saying that "Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had absolutely nothing wrong" leaves out a few very pertinent details - like how that fleeing kid didn't really seem to be trying to flee based on his phone call with his girlfriend, and then jumped GZ and started beating on him.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

How does outside of a shove someone the back getting out of a car?

Rephrase the question, please.

Again, the friend doesn't deny that Brown and the cop got in a physical struggle while the cop was still seated in his vehicle. So the question is, what's more believable? That Brown shoved the officer back into the vehicle as he was trying to get out, or that the officer decided to latch onto Brown and pull him into the vehicle from a seated position? That just doesn't make any sense. Even if the officer was pissed and behaving irrationally, you don't grab a big dude from a seated position - you get out of your vehicle to assert your authoritay. So up to that point I believe the cop.

It also doesn't make sense why you shoot an unarmed assailant multiple times 35 feet away from you. So both stories are in doubt, but without more facts the best I can surmise is that Brown very stupidly attacked the cop, and the cop then very stupidly overreacted and shot a retreating Brown.

Can you honestly say you don't recognize grabbing someone and pulling them into you as a method of intimidation?

Not from a seated position - that is contrary to natural instinct. If you're trying to assult someone, threaten them, whatever, you get "big," and you get leverage. Even if the officer was behaving irrationally, his instincts ("animal instincts" if you will) don't go out the window. In fact, the instincts take over.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Yeah, we don't know all of the details, but it sure sounds like there was more than 1 officer at the scene and we also know that this same police force arrested a journalist in a McDonalds for taking a photo. It sounds like the kid got violent with a police officer, so it's not as bad as the Trayvon Martin situation, but it's still pretty awful. I would like to see murder charges filed on the cop.

It's interesting that you think this is not as bad as the TM shooting because Brown (likely) attacked a cop, but it's actually just the opposite from a self-defense standpoint.

When it comes to justifiable shooting, the relevant question is not so much the preceding events (outside of illegal preceding events, and GZ was not breaking the law), but whether the shooter had a reasonable belief of imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death at the time of the shooting. In the TM case, the physical evidence (wounds to GZ head) and eyewitness testimony (TM on top) provided much greater support for GZ having such a belief. The cop appears to have a much weaker case due to eye witness testimony and the distance away from Brown at the time of the shooting.

I don't really care who has the stronger case. The cop killed a kid in the heat of the moment after being attacked. Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had done absolutely nothing wrong.

Putting the legal case aside, the Brown shooting is also potentially worse from a "moral" or "justice" standpoint or whatever you want to call it. A cop shooting someone thirty five feet away "in the heat of the moment" isn't right, period. By contrast, saying that "Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had absolutely nothing wrong" leaves out a few very pertinent details - like how that fleeing kid didn't really seem to be trying to flee based on his phone call with his girlfriend, and then jumped GZ and started beating on him.

If Trayvon wasn't running away, then why did Zimmerman tell the 911 dispatcher that he was? They are both murderers, but Zimmerman poses a greater threat to society than this cop does.

[CNS]

How does outside of a shove someone the back getting out of a car?

Rephrase the question, please.

Again, the friend doesn't deny that Brown and the cop got in a physical struggle while the cop was still seated in his vehicle. So the question is, what's more believable? That Brown shoved the officer back into the vehicle as he was trying to get out, or that the officer decided to latch onto Brown and pull him into the vehicle from a seated position? That just doesn't make any sense. Even if the officer was pissed and behaving irrationally, you don't grab a big dude from a seated position - you get out of your vehicle to assert your authoritay. So up to that point I believe the cop.

It also doesn't make sense why you shoot an unarmed assailant multiple times 35 feet away from you. So both stories are in doubt, but without more facts the best I can surmise is that Brown very stupidly attacked the cop, and the cop then very stupidly overreacted and shot a retreating Brown.

Can you honestly say you don't recognize grabbing someone and pulling them into you as a method of intimidation?

Not from a seated position - that is contrary to natural instinct. If you're trying to assult someone, threaten them, whatever, you get "big," and you get leverage.

I would say that it all depends on the situation.  Also, being an armed cop is leverage.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

How does outside of a shove someone the back getting out of a car?

Rephrase the question, please.

Again, the friend doesn't deny that Brown and the cop got in a physical struggle while the cop was still seated in his vehicle. So the question is, what's more believable? That Brown shoved the officer back into the vehicle as he was trying to get out, or that the officer decided to latch onto Brown and pull him into the vehicle from a seated position? That just doesn't make any sense. Even if the officer was pissed and behaving irrationally, you don't grab a big dude from a seated position - you get out of your vehicle to assert your authoritay. So up to that point I believe the cop.

It also doesn't make sense why you shoot an unarmed assailant multiple times 35 feet away from you. So both stories are in doubt, but without more facts the best I can surmise is that Brown very stupidly attacked the cop, and the cop then very stupidly overreacted and shot a retreating Brown.

Can you honestly say you don't recognize grabbing someone and pulling them into you as a method of intimidation?

Not from a seated position - that is contrary to natural instinct. If you're trying to assult someone, threaten them, whatever, you get "big," and you get leverage.

I would say that it all depends on the situation.  Also, being an armed cop is leverage.

I'm talking about physical leverage and natural instinct. You're talking about rational reaction (though it wouldn't be rational to grab someone from a seated position, either).

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Yeah, we don't know all of the details, but it sure sounds like there was more than 1 officer at the scene and we also know that this same police force arrested a journalist in a McDonalds for taking a photo. It sounds like the kid got violent with a police officer, so it's not as bad as the Trayvon Martin situation, but it's still pretty awful. I would like to see murder charges filed on the cop.

It's interesting that you think this is not as bad as the TM shooting because Brown (likely) attacked a cop, but it's actually just the opposite from a self-defense standpoint.

When it comes to justifiable shooting, the relevant question is not so much the preceding events (outside of illegal preceding events, and GZ was not breaking the law), but whether the shooter had a reasonable belief of imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death at the time of the shooting. In the TM case, the physical evidence (wounds to GZ head) and eyewitness testimony (TM on top) provided much greater support for GZ having such a belief. The cop appears to have a much weaker case due to eye witness testimony and the distance away from Brown at the time of the shooting.

I don't really care who has the stronger case. The cop killed a kid in the heat of the moment after being attacked. Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had done absolutely nothing wrong.

Putting the legal case aside, the Brown shooting is also potentially worse from a "moral" or "justice" standpoint or whatever you want to call it. A cop shooting someone thirty five feet away "in the heat of the moment" isn't right, period. By contrast, saying that "Zimmerman hunted down a fleeing kid who had absolutely nothing wrong" leaves out a few very pertinent details - like how that fleeing kid didn't really seem to be trying to flee based on his phone call with his girlfriend, and then jumped GZ and started beating on him.

If Trayvon wasn't running away, then why did Zimmerman tell the 911 dispatcher that he was? They are both murderers, but Zimmerman poses a greater threat to society than this cop does.

There's a difference between initially trying to evade Zimmerman and "fleeing" like a scared deer. If you really believe that GZ chased Martin down and tackled him, I can't help you.

[michigancat]

I don't think it's rational for a cop to get out of the car to force someone to walk on the sidewalk. I mean, I guess it's their job, but that doesn't make it rational.

[CNS]

I guess I am irrational as I have done it before.  Not in a car, but on a bar stool. 

Also, how big is the cop? 

A bunch of details matter in suggesting how he would react.  Also, I highly doubt the situation started out at 100mph.  I would assume it started at something more normal then escalated.  Grabbing someone and pulling them to you to get mean with them is something that wouldn't require a full fight/flight reaction as it usually takes place before that happens.   All that said, I am not a cop, so throw out some of the thought behind this. 

[ednksu]

I don't think it's rational for a cop to get out of the car to force someone to walk on the sidewalk. I mean, I guess it's there job, but that doesn't make it rational.

ummm....did you see the pics posted?

[michigancat]

I don't think it's rational for a cop to get out of the car to force someone to walk on the sidewalk. I mean, I guess it's there job, but that doesn't make it rational.

ummm....did you see the pics posted?

maybe?

[420seriouscat69]

They should have just got out and played catch with them or something. That's what KC cops do. 

[ednksu]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/15/ferguson-police-report.pdf
police reports

[michigancat]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/15/ferguson-police-report.pdf
police reports

Why haven't they arrested Johnson?

[MakeItRain]

Whats this about a robbery?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/08/15/340594634/ferguson-police-release-name-of-officer-who-shot-michael-brown

Where is that photo from and why is it posted with this link? That photo isn't included in the story?

[ednksu]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/15/ferguson-police-report.pdf
police reports

Why haven't they arrested Johnson?

who the hell knows

why didn't the cops get out in front of this by releasing info early?

[420seriouscat69]

So break it down for me. Is that him?

[ednksu]

Whats this about a robbery?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/08/15/340594634/ferguson-police-release-name-of-officer-who-shot-michael-brown

Where is that photo from and why is it posted with this link? That photo isn't included in the story?

Its from the police reports on the robbery shortly before the shooting.  Someone rehosted the color images.

[ednksu]

So break it down for me. Is that him?

police reports make it seem like the cops think so.

Red hat and flip flops
Image of Brown, dead, in roadway.