Israel - Hamas peace process

[I_have_purplewood]

I love that so many want to be humanitarians on here and it's not that I'm not a bleeding heart.  The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel.  Especially when it was so barbaric.  Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews.  Israel didn't start this.  There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.

On a happy note, Police Departments around our country have been put on high alert.  You know, to protect those crazy Jews against the Palestines that think they have been wronged for so many years.  Don't worry, I doubt any of these possible disturbances will be started by someone who crossed the border illegally.  Whew!!

[Spracne]

I love that so many want to be humanitarians on here and it's not that I'm not a bleeding heart.  The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel.  Especially when it was so barbaric.  Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews.  Israel didn't start this.  There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.

On a happy note, Police Departments around our country have been put on high alert.  You know, to protect those crazy Jews against the Palestines that think they have been wronged for so many years.  Don't worry, I doubt any of these possible disturbances will be started by someone who crossed the border illegally.  Whew!!

Dafuq is wrong with you?

[I_have_purplewood]

I love that so many want to be humanitarians on here and it's not that I'm not a bleeding heart.  The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel.  Especially when it was so barbaric.  Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews.  Israel didn't start this.  There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.

On a happy note, Police Departments around our country have been put on high alert.  You know, to protect those crazy Jews against the Palestines that think they have been wronged for so many years.  Don't worry, I doubt any of these possible disturbances will be started by someone who crossed the border illegally.  Whew!!

Dafuq is wrong with you?

They decapitated babies heads?  They abducted and raped women and children?  It's a tad aggravating. 

[Spracne]

... that's not what is wrong with your post.

[I_have_purplewood]

... that's not what is wrong with your post.

Oh the suspense!!  Btw, I will have to go back and reread but has anyone said anything about the Americans that were killed?  Or the ones that might be hostages now?  Or the hostages in general? 

[wetwillie]

Really hope this guy is wrong:

That I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents  had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter

https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20

What does the fourth front of its own Arab population mean?

[MadCat]

Really hope this guy is wrong:

That I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents  had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter

https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20

What does the fourth front of its own Arab population mean?

I'm guessing the Palestinian Arabs that live within the walls / borders of Israel.

[wetwillie]

Really hope this guy is wrong:

That I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents  had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter

https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20

What does the fourth front of its own Arab population mean?

I'm guessing the Palestinian Arabs that live within the walls / borders of Israel.

It seems incredibly unlikely that someone/something could coordinate with 2 million Arab civilians living in Israel to do some kind of attack, or that they would even be willing to.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I don't think it's much of a stretch that they would be willing to.

[Kat Kid]

I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.

As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.

Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.

[wetwillie]

I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.

As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.

Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.

Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords? My assumption is the military advantage of having more land buffer is too important to them.

[Kat Kid]

I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.

As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.

Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.

Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords? My assumption is the military advantage of having more land buffer is too important to them.

Same thing with the Golan (home to Trump Heights) Heights. I think it would be a bit more understandable if Israel acted in good faith in other areas, but when you are trying to shove every Palestinian out of East Jerusalem and are continuing to make the West Bank Swiss cheese, it rings a pretty hollow.

[wetwillie]

It is pretty mumped, but it feels like the continued settlements are more or less a poison pill to ensure they never cede back any of it. 

[Kat Kid]

It is pretty mumped, but it feels like the continued settlements are more or less a poison pill to ensure they never cede back any of it.

Right, which brings us back to “Peace or Apartheid” by Jimmy Carter which was received like a wet turd but has been proven quite prescient as even many staunch defenders of Israel like Tom Friedman now use “apartheid” to describe the situation in the West Bank.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/11/opinion/netanyahu-israel-judiciary.html

[Pete]

I keep whipsawing back and forth on this one. Each side keeps making very good arguments. A couple Jewish insta accounts I follow are really doing a good job of showing how brutal and cruel the Hammas attack was. And anyone who denies the callus, heavy handedness of the Israeli settlement stuff is blind.

I think I am going to remain an independent voter on this one.

[_33]

If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.

[michigancat]

If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.

Please elaborate

[MakeItRain]

If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.

What the hell are you going on about? This and your previous question seems to be vapid nonsense.

[Kat Kid]

There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.

In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak

Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school”  worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?

[Pete]

If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.

Initially I felt the same way as you. I mean, how do you excuse the purposeful killing of civilians?  However, as I educated myself about the impact of the policies of Israel over the decades, I learned that they cause very real suffering and death of Palestinian civilians….no merciful quick death, but rather lifelong suffering.  How does someone who grew up in that NOT fight back? It would be very hard to turn the other cheek, wouldn’t it? They probably just don’t want to be tread on anymore.

I am grateful I don’t live there.

Anyway, I am neutral.

[OK_Cat]

_33 must be really young, I guess. I’ve seen Israel be complete pieces of crap in this conflict my entire life. Both sides are equally to blame for all of this. It’s been going on for generations and will probably still be going on after we’re all gone.


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[MakeItRain]

I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.

As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.

Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.

Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords?

Is it anything more than they didn't return area c because they didn't have to and no one will force them to do so? Like with Egypt, none of this is going to get normalized until Israel elects leaders who want work with the Palestinians and stop treating their citizens worse than dogs.

[LickNeckey]

I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.

As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.

Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.

Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords?

Is it anything more than they didn't return area c because they didn't have to and no one will force them to do so? Like with Egypt, none of this is going to get normalized until Israel elects leaders who want work with the Palestinians and stop treating their citizens worse than dogs.

The greater issue with "Area C" is the continued and deliberate expansion of illegal settlement within it.

This isn't an issue of just not returning the land as prescribed.

[_33]

You can't win if you're Israel. Either be destroyed, or be disparaged as just as bad as terrorists for discriminatory policies against those trying to destroy you.

[mocat]

Damn, and Israel has tried everything too