Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 15, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
CBS - "Hamas has fired more than 1000 missiles into Israel over the last week. More than 90% have been destroyed in the air by Israel and the rest have not hit a target and no Israelis have been killed. Why do you continue to fire missiles?"
Hamas - "If nobody has been killed, why is Israel waging war against us?"
:lol:
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 15, 2014, 01:05:00 PM
Post by: brandochav on July 15, 2014, 01:13:10 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.Then you haven't been paying attention history or the present.
Post by: 8manpick on July 15, 2014, 01:19:44 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 15, 2014, 01:37:49 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.Then you haven't been paying attention history or the present.
I guess I'm with john dougie, forgive and forget ect.
Post by: CNS on July 15, 2014, 02:19:06 PM
No clue if all this is accurate or not, but if so, I could get how an entire region of ppl with similar stories would be willing to go full rockets on such a sitch.
I understand there are similar stories on the other side as well.
I don't get how anyone negotiates a win out of that. It's too old and deep of an issue. One will pretty much have to fully destroy the other for this to not rocket back to the surface every few years.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 15, 2014, 03:36:51 PM
So I'm watching the CBS morning news this morning and they put on an interview with a Hamas spokesman. Here is how the interview went:
CBS - "Hamas has fired more than 1000 missiles into Israel over the last week. More than 90% have been destroyed in the air by Israel and the rest have not hit a target and no Israelis have been killed. Why do you continue to fire missiles?"
Hamas - "If nobody has been killed, why is Israel waging war against us?"
:lol:
Is that what Jay Carney's doing now? Wow. Bigtime upgrade, natural fit.
Post by: 8manpick on July 15, 2014, 04:15:43 PM
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 15, 2014, 04:22:09 PM
Are there any good reading materials on the creation of Israel that aren't too biased one way or another?
I don't know much about Israel other than the Jewish people have been there off and on for at least 3000 years. They get kicked out every time some other group wants to take over, but they always end up going back.
Post by: 8manpick on July 15, 2014, 04:26:06 PM
Same. Mostly interested in more recent history culminating in the creation of the Israeli stateAre there any good reading materials on the creation of Israel that aren't too biased one way or another?
I don't know much about Israel other than the Jewish people have been there off and on for at least 3000 years. They get kicked out every time some other group wants to take over, but they always end up going back.
Post by: MeatSauce on July 15, 2014, 04:34:08 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 15, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
Same. Mostly interested in more recent history culminating in the creation of the Israeli stateAre there any good reading materials on the creation of Israel that aren't too biased one way or another?
I don't know much about Israel other than the Jewish people have been there off and on for at least 3000 years. They get kicked out every time some other group wants to take over, but they always end up going back.
Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A History With Documents by Charles D. Smith
Post by: mortons toe on July 15, 2014, 05:34:28 PM
Post by: nicname on July 15, 2014, 05:47:24 PM
Post by: Cire on July 15, 2014, 06:43:46 PM
Post by: nicname on July 15, 2014, 06:55:43 PM
Hamas fires rockets because they hate Jews not because someone took their land
Not sure if serious.
Post by: star seed 7 on July 15, 2014, 07:00:13 PM
Post by: nicname on July 15, 2014, 07:06:25 PM
Religion is the worst. Who else would fight over some shitty sand
There wasn't a whole lot of fighting (AFAIK) until outside entities began propping up regimes, building nations, and displacing others in the region. Divisions along religious lines are convenient battle flags tho, once the fighting starts.
Post by: 8manpick on July 15, 2014, 07:09:38 PM
Hamas fires rockets because they hate Jews not because someone took their landHamas hates Jews because the Jews stole their land?
Post by: Cire on July 15, 2014, 07:25:10 PM
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 15, 2014, 10:26:53 PM
Religion is the worst. Who else would fight over some shitty sand
Dude, it's beach property.
Post by: mortons toe on July 16, 2014, 09:52:30 AM
For Christ sakes Christians took their land
Ummm... :popcorn:
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 16, 2014, 01:15:56 PM
For Christ sakes Christians took their land
It seems pretty much everybody has taken their land at some point in history. Greeks, Romans, Muslims, Christians, etc.
Post by: DQ12 on July 17, 2014, 09:21:54 PM
No it's because they hate the Jews' freedoms and coca-colas and michael jordan sneeks.Hamas fires rockets because they hate Jews not because someone took their landHamas hates Jews because the Jews stole their land?
Post by: EMAFW on July 21, 2014, 11:21:31 AM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 12:24:34 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 21, 2014, 12:33:16 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
Factual, tho.
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 12:50:40 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
Factual, tho.
eh, it kind of glosses over a lot.
Here's an alternative: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 21, 2014, 01:19:20 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
Factual, tho.
eh, it kind of glosses over a lot.
Here's an alternative: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
An alternatively biased perspective? Sure.
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 01:27:01 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 21, 2014, 01:32:13 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 21, 2014, 01:44:30 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 21, 2014, 01:53:32 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 01:55:22 PM
My history is a little hazy, but didn't the Israelis voluntary evict themselves from Gaza about a decade ago? I think they made all the settlers leave, left thousands of greenhouses in place for the palestinians, and gave them millions in aid? And then the palestinians tore down the greenhouses, built a massive tunnel network, and started firing rockets at Israel? That happened, right?
Yep sounds like you have a solid grasp on all he ins and outs of life in Gaza. Greenhouses and millions in aid for all.
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 21, 2014, 01:58:56 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
The one part you can't deny is that peace would be achieved if the Palestinians, Hamas, and surrounding countries simply stopped fighting against Israel.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 21, 2014, 02:06:20 PM
My history is a little hazy, but didn't the Israelis voluntary evict themselves from Gaza about a decade ago? I think they made all the settlers leave, left thousands of greenhouses in place for the palestinians, and gave them millions in aid? And then the palestinians tore down the greenhouses, built a massive tunnel network, and started firing rockets at Israel? That happened, right?
Yep sounds like you have a solid grasp on all he ins and outs of life in Gaza. Greenhouses and millions in aid for all.
Well, now I had to go look it up. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/ (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/)
Quote
NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.
American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.
Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.
“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”
The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel’s troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza’s future.
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas told his people in a televised speech Tuesday that he would take immediate steps to impose order. “We have one law for everyone and no one is above the law. We are not going to tolerate chaos after today,” he said.
The Palestinian leader is under intense pressure from his people and the international community to stop the growing lawlessness in Gaza, where rival militant groups are jockeying for power. As Abbas spoke, hundreds of masked Hamas gunmen wielding rifles and grenade launchers paraded through the streets of a nearby refugee camp.
The greenhouses are a centerpiece of Palestinian plans for rebuilding Gaza after 38 years of Israeli occupation. The Palestinian Authority hopes the high-tech greenhouses left by the Israelis will provide jobs and export income for Gaza’s shattered economy.
Seems like the Israelis bent over backwards to prop up the palestinians in Gaza, and in return the paestinians just kept doing what they do.
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 02:27:18 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
The one part you can't deny is that peace would be achieved if the Palestinians, Hamas, and surrounding countries simply stopped fighting against Israel.
Eh, I don't think that's as much as a given as that guy in the video makes it seem.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 21, 2014, 03:16:24 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
The one part you can't deny is that peace would be achieved if the Palestinians, Hamas, and surrounding countries simply stopped fighting against Israel.
Eh, I don't think that's as much as a given as that guy in the video makes it seem.
I think it's worth a shot? :dunno:
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 03:17:09 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
The one part you can't deny is that peace would be achieved if the Palestinians, Hamas, and surrounding countries simply stopped fighting against Israel.
Eh, I don't think that's as much as a given as that guy in the video makes it seem.
I think it's worth a shot? :dunno:
sure, will Israel also give all their land back to the Palestinians they kicked out? :dunno:
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 21, 2014, 03:27:43 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
The one part you can't deny is that peace would be achieved if the Palestinians, Hamas, and surrounding countries simply stopped fighting against Israel.
Eh, I don't think that's as much as a given as that guy in the video makes it seem.
I think it's worth a shot? :dunno:
sure, will Israel also give all their land back to the Palestinians they kicked out? :dunno:
They already did that with Gaza, plus money, too. How's that working out?
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 03:29:32 PM
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 21, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 21, 2014, 03:50:34 PM
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 03:54:41 PM
Liberals love to talk about viability when it comes to unborn fetuses, but terrorist states are off limits.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 21, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
yeah israel really set gaza up for success. They give and give and give.
So now it's the Israelis' fault because they didn't do enough? :lol: They gave the palestinians millions in aid, complete control of the Gaza strip, thousands of greenhouses, and in response the palestinians promptly looted the greenhouses, elected a terrorist government, and started lobbing rockets into Israel. I know there are supposedly two sides to every story, but this seems like a pretty open and shut case. These people are crazy. Nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will placate them, and even if they succeeded, they'd still be no more advanced or prosperous than they are now.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 04:46:03 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 04:55:00 PM
yeah israel really set gaza up for success. They give and give and give.
So now it's the Israelis' fault because they didn't do enough? :lol: They gave the palestinians millions in aid, complete control of the Gaza strip, thousands of greenhouses, and in response the palestinians promptly looted the greenhouses, elected a terrorist government, and started lobbing rockets into Israel. I know there are supposedly two sides to every story, but this seems like a pretty open and shut case. These people are crazy. Nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will placate them, and even if they succeeded, they'd still be no more advanced or prosperous than they are now.
Complete control of Gaza except for the air, water, border, Mediterranean Sea access, tax revenues and transfer payments from the West Bank etc.
Post by: DQ12 on July 21, 2014, 06:16:08 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 07:57:51 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.605297 (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.605297)
Quote
Gaza chose terrorism over building a Palestinian paradise
Unoccupied for nearly a decade, why do Gaza’s people know little else aside from explosives and martyrdom?
......
Nothing was inevitable. With Israel’s withdrawal there was a blank slate of possibilities. Today people speak of Israel’s naval blockade and restrictive border crossings (now imposed by Egypt, too) as reasons for why Gaza did not have a free hand in charting its future. But such restrictions on the flow of people and raw materials took place only once it became clear that for Hamas borders and ports are arteries for rockets, artillery, and the kidnapping of soldiers. If the Gazans had spent the last ten years importing equipment with which to build a new nation, there never would have been an Israeli blockade.
While we’re dreaming, it’s important to remember that Gaza is a beachside enclave right on the Mediterranean. For decades it has been an armpit of rubble and dust, but it had the potential to be the harbinger of a Palestinian paradise. If Hamas, fresh from its electoral victory over Fatah, had called up casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, as right-wing a supporter of Israel as there is, and suggested a partnership in casinos all along the strip, rather than firing rockets at civilians and martyring their own, Hamas would have been busy booking Tony Bennett and Britney Spears to headline its hotels for Christmas.
Instead of resorting to terror they could have just hosted resorts. Imagine, no sounds of bombs bursting, just whirring slot machines; craps tables instead of a wasteland that looks like crap. (The Native Indian-Americans extracted similar concessions from the United States, without launching rockets. And they never had beachfront property!)
......
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 08:01:52 PM
Love the closing line about Native Americans never having beachfront property.
Post by: wetwillie on July 21, 2014, 08:02:39 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 08:06:46 PM
Also today Rosenbaum wrote this (WSJ is paywall protected, but has been excerpted on twitter):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtGp_N5CIAA2XFz.png:large)
Post by: Asteriskhead on July 21, 2014, 08:07:35 PM
GREENHOUSES
Post by: michigancat on July 21, 2014, 08:29:47 PM
Post by: Spracne on July 21, 2014, 08:53:12 PM
Post by: sys on July 21, 2014, 09:18:33 PM
Yep. The isreali-palestinian conflict. An open-shut case if there ever was one.
other than mispelling israeli, this was a great post that did a great job of making about 95% of the previous posts look like crap.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 21, 2014, 09:42:08 PM
My history is a little hazy, but didn't the Israelis voluntary evict themselves from Gaza about a decade ago? I think they made all the settlers leave, left thousands of greenhouses in place for the palestinians, and gave them millions in aid? And then the palestinians tore down the greenhouses, built a massive tunnel network, and started firing rockets at Israel? That happened, right?
Yep sounds like you have a solid grasp on all he ins and outs of life in Gaza. Greenhouses and millions in aid for all.
Wait, are you denying the Palestinians destroyed what was beautiful Gaza in about 3 months?
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 21, 2014, 09:50:50 PM
Post by: Cire on July 21, 2014, 09:51:52 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 09:57:04 PM
I understand the sitch is complicated, but how anyone could sympathize with the Palestinians over the Jews is the only insane thing in this thread. 2000+ years of persecution and slaughter compared with centuries of agitation, intolerance and waste.
I absolutely sympathize with Jews and with Israel. I have family that lives there. I just think their current political and military strategic thinking is disastrous for Israel's future as a Western democracy and a Jewish state.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 10:04:50 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
well that seems a little biased
Yeah, Dennis Prager might not be the most unbiased source.
Quote
On November 28, 2006, Dennis Prager wrote that Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to Congress, should not be allowed to take his Congressional oath using a Koran because "the act undermines American civilization."
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 21, 2014, 10:08:34 PM
I understand the sitch is complicated, but how anyone could sympathize with the Palestinians over the Jews is the only insane thing in this thread. 2000+ years of persecution and slaughter compared with centuries of agitation, intolerance and waste.
I absolutely sympathize with Jews and with Israel. I have family that lives there. I just think their current political and military strategic thinking is disastrous for Israel's future as a Western democracy and a Jewish state.
Why do you think that? Skinny jeans?
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 10:12:41 PM
I understand the sitch is complicated, but how anyone could sympathize with the Palestinians over the Jews is the only insane thing in this thread. 2000+ years of persecution and slaughter compared with centuries of agitation, intolerance and waste.
I absolutely sympathize with Jews and with Israel. I have family that lives there. I just think their current political and military strategic thinking is disastrous for Israel's future as a Western democracy and a Jewish state.
Why do you think that? Skinny jeans?
Yup. Skinny jean kufiya cut off the oxygen supply to my brain.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 21, 2014, 10:17:45 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 10:23:14 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 21, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 10:43:17 PM
Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.
The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it. They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada. The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.
Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!). There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out. But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 21, 2014, 11:00:17 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 21, 2014, 11:27:22 PM
Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.
The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it. They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada. The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.
Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!). There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out. But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.
Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 21, 2014, 11:54:54 PM
Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.
The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it. They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada. The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.
Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!). There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out. But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.
Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.
I have not ever had a rocket fired at my house. I also have never played professional baseball or had a #1 hit single but I still have opinions about those things too.
I absolutely want Israel to win. But I don't think the military objectives of this incursion can be achieved even on the terms that have been presented. Just as Cast Lead has not led to enduring peace. "Mowing the lawn" is failed strategic thinking. I think that the way things have gone so far again highlight the difficulty of achieving a beneficial political solution with these tactics.
Hamas is temporarily weakened militarily, the population either rallies back around Hamas or other more extreme actors, the total blockade of Gaza continues to justify whatever gains are made and the cycle continues.
Post by: DQ12 on July 22, 2014, 12:00:43 AM
other than misspelling "mispelling," this too was a great post.Yep. The isreali-palestinian conflict. An open-shut case if there ever was one.
other than mispelling israeli, this was a great post that did a great job of making about 95% of the previous posts look like crap.
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on July 22, 2014, 12:07:36 AM
Post by: sys on July 22, 2014, 01:10:47 AM
other than misspelling "mispelling," this too was a great post.Yep. The isreali-palestinian conflict. An open-shut case if there ever was one.
other than mispelling israeli, this was a great post that did a great job of making about 95% of the previous posts look like crap.
:Ugh:
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 01:12:11 AM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 06:55:23 AM
Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.
The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it. They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada. The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.
Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!). There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out. But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.
Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.
I have not ever had a rocket fired at my house. I also have never played professional baseball or had a #1 hit single but I still have opinions about those things too.
:lol: Nice. I'd love to see a video of you going door to door in a settlement near Gaza (between rocket launches) telling Israelis that they need to be more strategic!
Sounds like the Israelis need to focus on stopping the palestinians from getting weapons instead of stifling commerce with blockades, inspections, etc. Evidently, the rockets are being grown organically in the converted greenhouses. Who knew?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 22, 2014, 08:06:05 AM
Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.
The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it. They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada. The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.
Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!). There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out. But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.
Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.
I have not ever had a rocket fired at my house. I also have never played professional baseball or had a #1 hit single but I still have opinions about those things too.
:lol: Nice. I'd love to see a video of you going door to door in a settlement near Gaza (between rocket launches) telling Israelis that they need to be more strategic!
Sounds like the Israelis need to focus on stopping the palestinians from getting weapons instead of stifling commerce with blockades, inspections, etc. Evidently, the rockets are being grown organically in the converted greenhouses. Who knew?
You could say the same about going door to door and telling the Palestinians who are burying their kids, "just leave Israel alone and enjoy your greenhouse"
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 09:15:41 AM
Did you know Israel is getting bombed? Did you know the Jews have been on the run for 2 centuries? Your rhetoric ignores the reality they've been living for hundreds of generations.
The rocket attacks are bad, no doubt about it. They are also a huge improvement over the constant actual bombings during the second intifada. The security wall has brought temporary peace, Iron Dome has brought some measure of relief, but it is ultimately a political problem that needs strategic political thinking.
Israel is not weak and Jews can make their home in the US or Israel and enjoy an incredibly free and open expression of their faith (voted most popular religious group by Pew poll respondents in 2014!). There is no doubt that there are parts of Europe where you cannot say the same thing and anti-Semitism should absolutely be called out. But I think it is counter productive to claim that Jewish people are currently "on the run" if that is what you are doing.
Says the guy who's not having rockets fired at his house. I guess that helps you be objective though.
I have not ever had a rocket fired at my house. I also have never played professional baseball or had a #1 hit single but I still have opinions about those things too.
:lol: Nice. I'd love to see a video of you going door to door in a settlement near Gaza (between rocket launches) telling Israelis that they need to be more strategic!
Sounds like the Israelis need to focus on stopping the palestinians from getting weapons instead of stifling commerce with blockades, inspections, etc. Evidently, the rockets are being grown organically in the converted greenhouses. Who knew?
You could say the same about going door to door and telling the Palestinians who are burying their kids, "just leave Israel alone and enjoy your greenhouse"
The problem with doing that is I'd get my head lopped off for being a Jew-loving American. The palestinians can have peace with Israel whenever they want - but they don't want Israel period. That's the problem. You can't compromise with that.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 09:41:31 AM
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 09:53:16 AM
The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate.
it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 09:59:51 AM
The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate.
it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".
Oh c'mon, how many other democratic nations with a strong military have forced enlistment? They have earned their military might (which is regional, at best, and only because the Arab states are laughably unorganized). In a World Cup of strategic conflict, Israel might not even qualify for the tournament, and certainly doesn't make it past the group stage. Either way, it's not like they hold some sort of leverage card that forces people to give them aid. They have no natural resources or keystone industries. It's just righteousness, brilliance, and innovation. That's all they have, and kudos to them for defending it like a wolverine backed into a corner, which is essentially their predicament.
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 10:07:36 AM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 10:11:50 AM
Post by: Panjandrum on July 22, 2014, 10:17:38 AM
The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate.
it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".
Oh c'mon, how many other democratic nations with a strong military have forced enlistment? They have earned their military might (which is regional, at best, and only because the Arab states are laughably unorganized). In a World Cup of strategic conflict, Israel might not even qualify for the tournament, and certainly doesn't make it past the group stage. Either way, it's not like they hold some sort of leverage card that forces people to give them aid. They have no natural resources or keystone industries. It's just righteousness, brilliance, and innovation. That's all they have, and kudos to them for defending it like a wolverine backed into a corner, which is essentially their predicament.
You serious, Clark?
Post by: Panjandrum on July 22, 2014, 10:18:54 AM
I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.
That wouldn't fit the established narrative.
Duh.
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 10:37:09 AM
I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.
seems reasonable
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 12:41:47 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 12:43:33 PM
Emo certainly has a lot of feels and most times that is good enough for foreign policy absolutes.
Lobbing judgement from 20,000 miles away is preferred, I guess. Go look see sometime.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 12:45:57 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 12:52:29 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 01:08:00 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.
Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 01:27:56 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.
Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?
Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 01:30:14 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 01:31:37 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 01:32:55 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.
Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?
Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.
why are you such an bad person sometimes?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on July 22, 2014, 01:34:57 PM
Just kidding Emo. Well, mostly.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 01:36:45 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 22, 2014, 01:40:59 PM
I think it's perfectly acceptable to acknowledge that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are both pretty much dicks.
I would be a massive dick towards the people constantly trying to blow me up.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 01:43:28 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.
Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?
Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.
why are you such an bad person sometimes?
It's really just a reflection of your bad person. Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience. I prefer to go and see myself, when practical. I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care. Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything.
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 01:47:08 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.
Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?
Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.
why are you such an bad person sometimes?
It's really just a reflection of your bad person. Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience. I prefer to go and see myself, when practical. I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care. Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything.
Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers. I mean, what if you worked with the Israeli equivalent of ednksu or K-S-U? Can you imagine?
And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 01:53:00 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day.
Can you recommend a book that gives a good overview of the origin and history of the conflict?
Get your plane ticket and I'll recommend a book.
why are you such an bad person sometimes?
It's really just a reflection of your bad person. Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience. I prefer to go and see myself, when practical. I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care. Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything.
Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers.
And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
I don't purport to be an expert on the origin of the conflict. Do you? Is actually going someplace and talking to people a valid way of perceiving the world? If you don't think so, by all means hole up in your flat, put the kids to bed and read a book, and then remind everyone you know that their experiences and opinions are invalid because one time you read a book. That doesn't make you an bad person at all.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 22, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 01:54:02 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.
And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 01:55:20 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.
And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.
Do you think they expect it will be successful? Do you think it will be successful?
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 02:11:14 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
Agreed. What about the ones that don't? What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.
As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 02:13:23 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.
And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.
Right. Just like Americans should not have elected Obama (TWICE!), but we did and that means everyone there implicitly supports the government because they live there and haven't left.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 02:22:26 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
Agreed. What about the ones that don't? What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.
As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?
They are unfortunate collateral damage. I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either). When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there.
As for the rest, yes, I do. Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that. That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 02:23:58 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
There is a definite military and strategic reason for the Israeli offensive into Gaza. They are attempting to destroy weapons and an elaborate tunnel network used to shelter the weapons, leaders, and infiltrate Israel.
And in addition to not firing rockets into Israel, the Gazan palestinians should probably also not elect a terrorist organization to lead them.
Right. Just like Americans should not have elected Obama (TWICE!), but we did and that means everyone there implicitly supports the government because they live there and haven't left.
As much as I dislike Obama and his policies, I think comparing him to Hamas is a bit of a stretch. I think it's bad enough that a majority of palestinians support Hamas, even if not all of them do. And again, I'm simply answering your question about what the palestinians should do. Maybe before the next election, enough palestinians will say "Damn, I'm tired of living in squallor and getting bombed. Maybe I should stop voting for terrorists." That is, if they're not too busy talking about how proud they are of their "martyred" children.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 02:25:36 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
Agreed. What about the ones that don't? What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.
As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?
They are unfortunate collateral damage. I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either). When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there.
As for the rest, yes, I do. Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that. That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.powerlineblog.com%2Fadmin%2Fed-assets%2F2014%2F07%2F8-Hamas-Body-Armor-copy.jpg&hash=f6fc8a9e85a33f006561d839ea8952c25051482f)
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 02:31:30 PM
Quote
CNN Breaking News ?@cnnbrk 2h
FAA bans U.S. airlines from flying to or from Israel's Ben Gurion Airport for 24 hours, after nearby rocket. http://cnn.it/1ryoCzn
It is not Hamas' strong suit.
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 02:37:31 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 02:39:09 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html)
Quote
HEBRON, West Bank — Said Kawasmeh received the order from Israel’s military last week. His two-story house was to be demolished, and his large family had 48 hours to leave.
Their crime: Kawasmeh’s son is a key suspect in the brutal kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers whose fates helped reignite the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
The son, Marwan, has disappeared. So Israel has zeroed in on his family.
“I built this house, and I own it,” lamented Kawasmeh, seated on a chair inside his empty house. Outside, the family’s possessions lay in boxes and shopping bags, or scattered on the ground. “Why do they want to punish me?”
....
The policy — different from Israel’s ongoing practice of destroying Palestinian structures it claims are unauthorized or built without valid permits — had been abandoned nine years ago because the military deemed it an ineffective deterrent against the Palestinian militancy.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
Post by: Panjandrum on July 22, 2014, 02:41:40 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
Agreed. What about the ones that don't? What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.
As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?
They are unfortunate collateral damage. I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either). When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there.
As for the rest, yes, I do. Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that. That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.
Jesus, dude. There are kids dying.
Where do you propose these folks go?
Post by: Panjandrum on July 22, 2014, 02:42:43 PM
That is, if they're not too busy talking about how proud they are of their "martyred" children.
I think that's a pretty gross generalization of how the majority of folks feel.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 02:44:04 PM
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?I don't have any pre-reqs. I just am evaluating the opinions as given. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on what a Gaza resident should do given the circumstances and what you think Israel will achieve with this mission and what Israel should do differently going forward considering the past policies have failed to stop the rockets.
I think a Gaza resident should not launch rockets at anyone. I think Israel is, with this mission, sending the message that they will do whatever it takes. I don't think it's for any sort of military strategic reason. I don't think Israel can control or influence people into not firing rockets at them. It will happen no matter what they do.
Agreed. What about the ones that don't? What is their best course of action given that Israel considers them human shields if they are at a location where Israel is bombing/shelling.
As for the rest: is it your view that this is just something that Israel will periodically have to do every few years or so for the foreseeable future with no real hope of changing the pattern?
They are unfortunate collateral damage. I don't think Israel wants to kill civilians (I don't think you think that, either). When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there.
As for the rest, yes, I do. Unless there is some strong international pressure, presence, U.N., something like that, nothing will change, and Israel can't by themselves change that. That's why I think they're trying to rile up the international community with this action.
Jesus, dude. There are kids dying.
Where do you propose these folks go?
If you're suggesting this is a humanitarian issue then I would urge international involvement. Israel has the right to defend itself. I don't see how that can be argued.
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 02:47:43 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 22, 2014, 02:51:33 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 02:55:01 PM
It's really just a reflection of your bad person. Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience. I prefer to go and see myself, when practical. I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care. Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything.
Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers.
And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
I don't purport to be an expert on the origin of the conflict.
When you post things like this, it definitely seems like you're trying to claim to be an expert on the situation:
I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 02:55:31 PM
Back to Israel for another depressing instance of what I'm talking about. How is this at all helpful to the stated goal of deterring Palestinian radicalization?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html)Quote
HEBRON, West Bank — Said Kawasmeh received the order from Israel’s military last week. His two-story house was to be demolished, and his large family had 48 hours to leave.
Their crime: Kawasmeh’s son is a key suspect in the brutal kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers whose fates helped reignite the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
The son, Marwan, has disappeared. So Israel has zeroed in on his family.
“I built this house, and I own it,” lamented Kawasmeh, seated on a chair inside his empty house. Outside, the family’s possessions lay in boxes and shopping bags, or scattered on the ground. “Why do they want to punish me?”
....
The policy — different from Israel’s ongoing practice of destroying Palestinian structures it claims are unauthorized or built without valid permits — had been abandoned nine years ago because the military deemed it an ineffective deterrent against the Palestinian militancy.
On a side note, Palestinians are posting this same article as an example of pro-Israel bias in the US press:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 02:57:29 PM
Post by: Spracne on July 22, 2014, 03:00:17 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:02:04 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 03:15:29 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).
They could take cover in a bomb shelter or tunnel. Oh wait, Hamas is too busy spending it's money on tunnels to build any bomb shelter, and the tunnels are strictly for Hamas business (stashing weapons, hiding Hamas, and infiltrating Israel).
In fact, Hamas encourages palestinains not to take cover. They want the collateral damage. Israel tries to minimize collateral damage by dropping leaflets and warning charges (roof knockers, I think they're called) before bombing. In response, Hamas posts things like this:
Quote
"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."
Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:16:58 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 03:20:51 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).
They could take cover in a bomb shelter or tunnel. Oh wait, Hamas is too busy spending it's money on tunnels to build any bomb shelter, and the tunnels are strictly for Hamas business (stashing weapons, hiding Hamas, and infiltrating Israel).
In fact, Hamas encourages palestinains not to take cover. They want the collateral damage. Israel tries to minimize collateral damage by dropping leaflets and warning charges (roof knockers, I think they're called) before bombing. In response, Hamas posts things like this:Quote"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."
Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum
Wait, so then what are they supposed to do?
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 03:34:35 PM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).
They could take cover in a bomb shelter or tunnel. Oh wait, Hamas is too busy spending it's money on tunnels to build any bomb shelter, and the tunnels are strictly for Hamas business (stashing weapons, hiding Hamas, and infiltrating Israel).
In fact, Hamas encourages palestinains not to take cover. They want the collateral damage. Israel tries to minimize collateral damage by dropping leaflets and warning charges (roof knockers, I think they're called) before bombing. In response, Hamas posts things like this:Quote"Answering the occupation's [Israel's] calls will merely aid it in carrying out its plans to weaken the [Palestinian] home front and to destroy property and homes as soon as you leave them. We call on all our people who have left their homes to return to them immediately."
Facebook page of Hamas Ministry of Interior spokesman Iyad Al-Buzum
Wait, so then what are they supposed to do?
Again, (1) if the Israelis send warning of a strike, GTFO, and (2) stop electing Hamas.
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:35:37 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 03:36:52 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:36:58 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:38:46 PM
I watched the video, felix.
You probably laughed at the clips of scrambling Jews, you racist terror-lover.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 22, 2014, 03:40:03 PM
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:43:15 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 03:47:31 PM
so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
I think 1) should be "stop voting for terrorists ya big dummy!"
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 03:50:11 PM
so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 03:53:00 PM
so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.
Quote
"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."
Post by: Panjandrum on July 22, 2014, 04:02:31 PM
so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.Quote"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."
/scene
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 04:02:55 PM
so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
They get 10 minutes? That actually sounds like a pretty good set of options if you live in a country that elected a terrorist organization that spends all its money attacking its next door neighbor.Quote"[If a country] is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government's actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets."
What point are you trying to make with the OBL quote? Even though the palestinians elected Hamas, the Israelis are not targeting civilians. They try to avoid them.
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 04:12:24 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 04:12:52 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 04:14:18 PM
But I'm on my phone, so this will have to suffice.
You don't see a difference between "trying to avoid" and "targeting"? Ok then.... That's just dumb, my friend, real dumb.
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 04:18:07 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 04:20:09 PM
But I'm on my phone, so this will have to suffice.
You don't see a difference between "trying to avoid" and "targeting"? Ok then.... That's just dumb, my friend, real dumb.
"TRYING"
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 04:21:01 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 22, 2014, 04:29:06 PM
I hate to derail this otherwise super productive debate, and (since getting "chummed) I am reluctant to bring up Egypt in non-felix-lives-in-egypt threads. But I feel like this clip is universally enjoyable: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4344.htm#.U80srN7xrhZ.twitter
the part about the guy playing soccer when his weight allowed was wonderful
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 22, 2014, 04:31:52 PM
maybe it works better in CAPS? May have to take this to the tapatalk thread.
No, sorry, maybe TRY again? There is clearly a moral difference in war between trying to avoid civilians (collateral damage) and intentionally inflicting it (terrorism, genocide, etc.).
Post by: star seed 7 on July 22, 2014, 04:32:33 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 22, 2014, 10:22:09 PM
I hate to derail this otherwise super productive debate, and (since getting "chummed) I am reluctant to bring up Egypt in non-felix-lives-in-egypt threads. But I feel like this clip is universally enjoyable: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4344.htm#.U80srN7xrhZ.twitter
the part about the guy playing soccer when his weight allowed was wonderful
That was my favorite part, too!
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 23, 2014, 05:57:22 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 09:11:37 AM
It's really just a reflection of your bad person. Reading books isn't the only way to attain knowledge or experience. I prefer to go and see myself, when practical. I tend to not hold strong opinions on anything where I don't have direct experience; I'll either defer to others with direct experience or I don't care. Frankly this is one of those topics where none of us will convince anyone else of anything.
Interacting with a small group of Israelis doesn't make you an expert on the origin of the conflict. I thought maybe you'd done some sort of research on the subject that goes beyond the IDF talking points fed to you by coworkers.
And you're wrong, discussions like this change opinions all the time. Just because you're a stubborn bad person who can't reasonably consider new or conflicting information doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
I don't purport to be an expert on the origin of the conflict.
When you post things like this, it definitely seems like you're trying to claim to be an expert on the situation:I've only spent like 2 years interviewing and working closely with people who live and work there every day. What's the KK threshold for having an informed opinion?
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 09:17:30 AM
[When you see the rockets coming into town, best to GTFOO there
1) where should they go?
2) what if I told you it wasn't humanly possibly to GTFOO there fast enough when you see the rockets coming?
3) What if the IDF told you the same thing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1R5RAC02c
Unfortunate collateral damage
can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
"Unfortunate collateral damage" answered no questions. You said "GTFOO". I asked where they should go and pointed out that the IDF says that, even with their superior tech, they can only provide civilians with 15 seconds of warning from an incoming Hamas rocket, which would leave even Usain Bolt dead (again, according to IDF).
First of all, you're comparing two dissimilar things: 1) the rockets Hamas fires into Israel, and 2) the artillery and other targeting attacks Israel launches in counter.
The rockets. Aren't accurate at all. Are just sort of lobbed over there in a general direction. If someone rolls into a Gaza neighborhood and starts setting these things up, that's when the clocks starts to take cover. That clocks includes time for Hamas to setup the rockets, fire the rockets, transit time till detection by the Israelis, time to calculate the rocket's origin, time to decide the proper counter, time to launch the counter, time for the counter to actually arrive at the scene. That's easily several minutes. A person could easily be a half mile away from a rocket launch site by the time Israeli targeted/accurate ordinance is arriving. The Israelis don't have this luxury.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 09:18:49 AM
so far as I can tell ksuw and emo's best case scenario for a Gazan:
1) get text message/leaflet/knock on roof that incoming missile is on way
2) evacuate home (usually have max 10 min. but you don't ever really know)
3) home is bombed
4) get whatever you can recover
5) go to UN refugee shelter such as a hospital which also may or may not be bombed
This scenario is favorable to the scenario the Israelis are given.
Post by: 8manpick on July 23, 2014, 09:26:59 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 23, 2014, 09:41:05 AM
Quote
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
I don't think there is any path to discourse with one of your first principles being that none of us can have an equally valid position as the Israeli government. It is really an amazing position to hold for someone that lives and grew up in a democratic republic.
I guess I'll stop posting in here for awhile. I wanted to point out, again, that not all Gazans, not all Palestinians and not all Israelis are unified in their opinions. David Grossman is an incredibly talented writer and he wrote the following on July 8th:
http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/1.601993?trailingPath=2.169%2C2.216%2C2.217%2C2.1434%2C (http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/1.601993?trailingPath=2.169%2C2.216%2C2.217%2C2.1434%2C)
Quote
On hope and despair in the Middle East
In memory of Ron Pundak, an architect of the Oslo Accords and the Geneva Initiative.
By David Grossman | Jul. 8, 2014 | 7:30 PM
Hope and despair. For years, we were tossed back and forth between one and the other. Today, most Israelis and Palestinians seem to be in a gloomy, flat, state of mind, one with no horizon; dully comatose, a self-induced numbness.
Today, in an Israel that has known so much disappointment, hope (if ever mentioned at all) is always hesitant, a bit timid, and apologetic. Despair, on the other hand, is utterly confident and self-assured, as if speaking on behalf of a law of nature, an axiom that states that between these two peoples there shall never be peace, that the war between them is a heavenly decree, and that altogether, it will always be bad here, nothing but bad. As despair sees it, anyone who still hopes, who still believes in the possibility of peace, is at best naïve, or a deluded dreamer, and at worst, a traitor who weakens Israel’s wherewithal by encouraging it to be seduced by false visions.
In this sense, the Israeli right has won. The right, which adheres to this worldview – certainly over the last decades – has managed to instill it in a majority of Israelis. One could say that the right has not only vanquished the left: It has vanquished Israel. And not just because this pessimistic worldview is pushing Israel into paralysis in the area most fateful to its survival, the area where boldness and flexibility and creativity are required; the right has vanquished Israel by crushing what once could have been called “the Israeli spirit”: that spark, the ability to remake ourselves, that “nevertheless” spirit, and courage. And hope.
In the area most critical to its survival, today’s Israel is practically immobile, one might even say incompetent. Strangely enough this state of mind, is not causing overt anguish: Not only its leaders, but most of its citizens are able to keep the situation out of their minds. They excel in the ability to completely separate the two, and to keep doing so for many years, 47 years of occupation, and even do fairly well, while at the center of their being, there is essentially a void. A void of actions, a void of consciousness, a void in which an efficient suspension of moral judgment prevails, a failure to notice the injustice at the root of the entire situation.
The American writer David Foster Wallace once told a story about two young fish who are happily swimming along in the sea when they come upon an older fish. “Hello there, fellows,” the old fish says to them. “How are things?”
“Great!” say the two fish.
“How’s the water?” he asks them.
“The water’s great!” the young fish answer. Then they bid the old fish goodbye and keep on swimming. A few minutes later, one of them turns to the other and asks – “Hey, what’s water?”
Listen to the water. To the water we’ve been swimming in and drinking for the last 47 years. To which we’ve become so accustomed that we no longer feel it. This water is the life that flows here, and it is, unquestionably, still brimming with vitality and creativity, but it has also become somewhat crazed, with a chaotic, clearance-sale feeling to it – a feeling of interwoven mania and depression; a feeling of tremendous strength that sometimes plummets into colossal weakness; of living in a selfÎsatisfied democracy, with pretensions to liberalism and humanism, that occupies and humiliates and crushes another people for decades on end. A life lived amid a deafening media clamor, much of which is deliberately intended to distract and dull the senses – for how would it be possible to face this without a little distraction and self-medication? How else would it be possible to face, say, the results of the so-called “settlement project”? To face up to the full meaning of this crazy gamble on the country’s future? Listen to the water. Below the turbid waters we’ve been treading for the past 47 years runs a deep and cold current, a current of dread over a huge mistake, a monumental wrong turn and loss of way. The current is taking ever-stronger shape before our eyes in the form of a binational state, or an apartheid state, or a state of all its soldiers, or a state of all its rabbis, all its settlers, all its messiahs.
And maybe, just maybe, the despair that has ruled us in recent years is also partly the despair of the doomed, who understand by now that there is no way to avoid punishment for their deeds, or for what they allowed to happen through their support, or their silence, or their apathy, so therefore – Why not eat, drink and make merry while one still can?
This Israeli despair also contains a peculiar element of eagerness for disaster, or at least for disappointment: a certain gloating directed at anyone whose hopes were dashed. This is a particularly twisted form of joy, for ultimately, we’re rejoicing in our own misfortune. Sometimes it seems that Israeli hearts and minds are still smarting at the insult of having dared to believe back in 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed, not just in an enemy who suddenly became a partner – but in the very possibility that things would be good, that it could ever be good here.
As if having been tempted to believe – say the people of the despair faction – in something that runs so counter to our life experience, to our tragic history, we somehow betrayed ourselves, betrayed some trademark of our destiny, and for this belief we have paid dearly, and shall go on paying, many times over. But at least from now on you’ll never catch us believing in anything, in any promise, in any chance.
Even if Mahmoud Abbas fights with all he has to prevent terror against Israelis, and declares that he knows he will only ever return to Safed, his birthplace, as a tourist; and even if he declares that the Holocaust is the gravest crime in human history – even if he does all of that, Prime Minister Netanyahu will hasten to pour a bucket of cold water on his head.
And even if the countries of the Arab League present Israel with an initiative that could kick-start some type of peace process, that contains an explicit invitation to a new kind of dialogue we’ve never seen before, for which we’ve yearned for years – the Israeli government will totally and demonstratively ignore it for 12 years and counting. Because no one is going to trick us again. We’re not suckers. Never again will we be caught believing a Palestinian, or any Arab for that matter. Or, say, a, tall, silver-haired American secretary of state who doesn’t get what life is really made of. Or in the hope that we could ever have a better life. Or just life.
It’s interesting: We only seriously tried the path of peace with the Palestinians once, in 1993. It failed, and from that moment on, it’s as if Israel decided to seal off that option once and for all. Here, too, see the twisted logic of despair at work: We’ve tried the path of war, occupation, terror and hatred dozens of times, never wearying of it or giving up on it, so why the rush to permanently divorce ourselves from peace, of all things, after a single failure?
Israel has, of course, many reasons to fear and to worry. The Middle East is in turmoil, fanatic and fundamentalist currents toss and turn it, and most of it is still hostile toward Israel and openly wishes for its destruction. But precisely against those dangers and threats, the policy of despair and dejection does not seem to be the right path to follow.
The government of Israel, the governments of Israel, act like prisoners of despair. Like its helpless victims. I do not remember ever hearing any serious statement about hope from Benjamin Netanyahu, or from any of his ministers and advisers. Not even one word of a vision of the possibilities a life of peace could offer, or about the chance that Israel could become part of a new fabric of alliances and interests in the Middle East. How did even the word itself, “hope”, become a dirty, incriminating word, second only to the word “peace” in its dangerous levels of radiation?
It’s maddening to think that the tremendous military power Israel has amassed is not giving it the courage to overcome its fears and existential despair and take a decisive step that will bring peace. The great idea of the founding of the State of Israel is that the Jewish people has returned home, and that here, we will never be victims again. Never shall we be paralyzed and submissive in the face of forces mightier than us.
Look at us: The strongest nation in the region, a regional superpower that enjoys the support of the United States on an almost inconceivable scale, along with the sympathy and commitment of Germany, England and France – and still, deep inside, it sees itself as a helpless victim. And still it behaves like a victim – of its anxieties, its real and imagined fears, its tragic history, of the mistakes of its neighbors and enemies.
This worldview is pushing the Jewish public of Israel to our most vulnerable and wounded places as a people. The very essence of “Israeliness,” which always had a forward-looking gaze and held constant ferment and constant promise, has been steadily dwindling in recent years, and is being absorbed back into the channels of trauma and pain of Jewish history and memory.
You can feel it now, in 2014, within very many of us “new” Israelis, an anxiety over the fate of the Jewish people, that sense of persecution, of victimhood, of feeling the existential foreignness of the Jews among all the other nations.
What hope can there be when such is the terrible state of things? The hope of nevertheless. A hope that does not disregard the many dangers and obstacles, but refuses to see only them and nothing else.
A hope that if the flames beneath the conflict die down, the healthy and sane features of the two peoples can gradually be revealed once more. The healing power of the everyday, of the wisdom of life and the wisdom of compromise, will begin to take effect. The sense of existential security. Of being able to raise children without abject fear, without the humiliation of occupation or the dread of terrorism. The basic human desires for family and livelihood and study. The fabric of life.
Among the two peoples today, the agents of despair and hatred have practically taken over, so it may be hard to believe that the picture I’ve described is truly possible. But a situation of peace will start to produce the agents of hope and closeness and optimism; it will give rise to more people who have a practical interest, unrelated to ideology, in creating more and more ties with members of the other people. Perhaps eventually, after some years, a deeper attachment will evolve, even genuine friendship between these two peoples, and those human beings. Such things have happened. But for now let us suffice with all those mundane situations in which Israelis and Palestinians could live with one another like human beings.
We, the people who have gathered at this Israel Conference on Peace cling to this hope, and preserve it in our heart. We cannot afford the luxury and indulgence of despair. The situation is too desperate to be left to the despairing, for accepting despair amounts to an admission that we’ve been defeated. Defeated not on the battlefield, but as human beings. Something deep and vital to us as humans was taken away, was stolen from us, the moment we agreed to let despair to have a dominion.
He whose policy is essentially a thinly veiled, profound despair is placing Israel in mortal danger. He who behaves thus cannot pretend to speak about being “a free people in our land.” He may sing “Hatikva,” “The Hope,” our national anthem but in his voice we hear: Our despair is not yet lost, the despair of two thousand years.
We who have gathered here today, and many others who are with us in spirit, insist upon hope. A hope that is not wide-eyed, a hope that won’t give up. A hope that gives us – Israelis and Palestinians both – our only chance to resist the gravitational pull of despair.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 09:50:01 AM
QuoteI'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
I don't think there is any path to discourse with one of your first principles being that none of us can have an equally valid position as the Israeli government. It is really an amazing position to hold for someone that lives and grew up in a democratic republic.
I guess I'll stop posting in here for awhile. I wanted to point out, again, that not all Gazans, not all Palestinians and not all Israelis are unified in their opinions. David Grossman is an incredibly talented writer and he wrote the following on July 8th:
http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/1.601993?trailingPath=2.169%2C2.216%2C2.217%2C2.1434%2C (http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/1.601993?trailingPath=2.169%2C2.216%2C2.217%2C2.1434%2C)QuoteOn hope and despair in the Middle East
In memory of Ron Pundak, an architect of the Oslo Accords and the Geneva Initiative.
By David Grossman | Jul. 8, 2014 | 7:30 PM
Hope and despair. For years, we were tossed back and forth between one and the other. Today, most Israelis and Palestinians seem to be in a gloomy, flat, state of mind, one with no horizon; dully comatose, a self-induced numbness.
Today, in an Israel that has known so much disappointment, hope (if ever mentioned at all) is always hesitant, a bit timid, and apologetic. Despair, on the other hand, is utterly confident and self-assured, as if speaking on behalf of a law of nature, an axiom that states that between these two peoples there shall never be peace, that the war between them is a heavenly decree, and that altogether, it will always be bad here, nothing but bad. As despair sees it, anyone who still hopes, who still believes in the possibility of peace, is at best naïve, or a deluded dreamer, and at worst, a traitor who weakens Israel’s wherewithal by encouraging it to be seduced by false visions.
In this sense, the Israeli right has won. The right, which adheres to this worldview – certainly over the last decades – has managed to instill it in a majority of Israelis. One could say that the right has not only vanquished the left: It has vanquished Israel. And not just because this pessimistic worldview is pushing Israel into paralysis in the area most fateful to its survival, the area where boldness and flexibility and creativity are required; the right has vanquished Israel by crushing what once could have been called “the Israeli spirit”: that spark, the ability to remake ourselves, that “nevertheless” spirit, and courage. And hope.
In the area most critical to its survival, today’s Israel is practically immobile, one might even say incompetent. Strangely enough this state of mind, is not causing overt anguish: Not only its leaders, but most of its citizens are able to keep the situation out of their minds. They excel in the ability to completely separate the two, and to keep doing so for many years, 47 years of occupation, and even do fairly well, while at the center of their being, there is essentially a void. A void of actions, a void of consciousness, a void in which an efficient suspension of moral judgment prevails, a failure to notice the injustice at the root of the entire situation.
The American writer David Foster Wallace once told a story about two young fish who are happily swimming along in the sea when they come upon an older fish. “Hello there, fellows,” the old fish says to them. “How are things?”
“Great!” say the two fish.
“How’s the water?” he asks them.
“The water’s great!” the young fish answer. Then they bid the old fish goodbye and keep on swimming. A few minutes later, one of them turns to the other and asks – “Hey, what’s water?”
Listen to the water. To the water we’ve been swimming in and drinking for the last 47 years. To which we’ve become so accustomed that we no longer feel it. This water is the life that flows here, and it is, unquestionably, still brimming with vitality and creativity, but it has also become somewhat crazed, with a chaotic, clearance-sale feeling to it – a feeling of interwoven mania and depression; a feeling of tremendous strength that sometimes plummets into colossal weakness; of living in a selfÎsatisfied democracy, with pretensions to liberalism and humanism, that occupies and humiliates and crushes another people for decades on end. A life lived amid a deafening media clamor, much of which is deliberately intended to distract and dull the senses – for how would it be possible to face this without a little distraction and self-medication? How else would it be possible to face, say, the results of the so-called “settlement project”? To face up to the full meaning of this crazy gamble on the country’s future? Listen to the water. Below the turbid waters we’ve been treading for the past 47 years runs a deep and cold current, a current of dread over a huge mistake, a monumental wrong turn and loss of way. The current is taking ever-stronger shape before our eyes in the form of a binational state, or an apartheid state, or a state of all its soldiers, or a state of all its rabbis, all its settlers, all its messiahs.
And maybe, just maybe, the despair that has ruled us in recent years is also partly the despair of the doomed, who understand by now that there is no way to avoid punishment for their deeds, or for what they allowed to happen through their support, or their silence, or their apathy, so therefore – Why not eat, drink and make merry while one still can?
This Israeli despair also contains a peculiar element of eagerness for disaster, or at least for disappointment: a certain gloating directed at anyone whose hopes were dashed. This is a particularly twisted form of joy, for ultimately, we’re rejoicing in our own misfortune. Sometimes it seems that Israeli hearts and minds are still smarting at the insult of having dared to believe back in 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed, not just in an enemy who suddenly became a partner – but in the very possibility that things would be good, that it could ever be good here.
As if having been tempted to believe – say the people of the despair faction – in something that runs so counter to our life experience, to our tragic history, we somehow betrayed ourselves, betrayed some trademark of our destiny, and for this belief we have paid dearly, and shall go on paying, many times over. But at least from now on you’ll never catch us believing in anything, in any promise, in any chance.
Even if Mahmoud Abbas fights with all he has to prevent terror against Israelis, and declares that he knows he will only ever return to Safed, his birthplace, as a tourist; and even if he declares that the Holocaust is the gravest crime in human history – even if he does all of that, Prime Minister Netanyahu will hasten to pour a bucket of cold water on his head.
And even if the countries of the Arab League present Israel with an initiative that could kick-start some type of peace process, that contains an explicit invitation to a new kind of dialogue we’ve never seen before, for which we’ve yearned for years – the Israeli government will totally and demonstratively ignore it for 12 years and counting. Because no one is going to trick us again. We’re not suckers. Never again will we be caught believing a Palestinian, or any Arab for that matter. Or, say, a, tall, silver-haired American secretary of state who doesn’t get what life is really made of. Or in the hope that we could ever have a better life. Or just life.
It’s interesting: We only seriously tried the path of peace with the Palestinians once, in 1993. It failed, and from that moment on, it’s as if Israel decided to seal off that option once and for all. Here, too, see the twisted logic of despair at work: We’ve tried the path of war, occupation, terror and hatred dozens of times, never wearying of it or giving up on it, so why the rush to permanently divorce ourselves from peace, of all things, after a single failure?
Israel has, of course, many reasons to fear and to worry. The Middle East is in turmoil, fanatic and fundamentalist currents toss and turn it, and most of it is still hostile toward Israel and openly wishes for its destruction. But precisely against those dangers and threats, the policy of despair and dejection does not seem to be the right path to follow.
The government of Israel, the governments of Israel, act like prisoners of despair. Like its helpless victims. I do not remember ever hearing any serious statement about hope from Benjamin Netanyahu, or from any of his ministers and advisers. Not even one word of a vision of the possibilities a life of peace could offer, or about the chance that Israel could become part of a new fabric of alliances and interests in the Middle East. How did even the word itself, “hope”, become a dirty, incriminating word, second only to the word “peace” in its dangerous levels of radiation?
It’s maddening to think that the tremendous military power Israel has amassed is not giving it the courage to overcome its fears and existential despair and take a decisive step that will bring peace. The great idea of the founding of the State of Israel is that the Jewish people has returned home, and that here, we will never be victims again. Never shall we be paralyzed and submissive in the face of forces mightier than us.
Look at us: The strongest nation in the region, a regional superpower that enjoys the support of the United States on an almost inconceivable scale, along with the sympathy and commitment of Germany, England and France – and still, deep inside, it sees itself as a helpless victim. And still it behaves like a victim – of its anxieties, its real and imagined fears, its tragic history, of the mistakes of its neighbors and enemies.
This worldview is pushing the Jewish public of Israel to our most vulnerable and wounded places as a people. The very essence of “Israeliness,” which always had a forward-looking gaze and held constant ferment and constant promise, has been steadily dwindling in recent years, and is being absorbed back into the channels of trauma and pain of Jewish history and memory.
You can feel it now, in 2014, within very many of us “new” Israelis, an anxiety over the fate of the Jewish people, that sense of persecution, of victimhood, of feeling the existential foreignness of the Jews among all the other nations.
What hope can there be when such is the terrible state of things? The hope of nevertheless. A hope that does not disregard the many dangers and obstacles, but refuses to see only them and nothing else.
A hope that if the flames beneath the conflict die down, the healthy and sane features of the two peoples can gradually be revealed once more. The healing power of the everyday, of the wisdom of life and the wisdom of compromise, will begin to take effect. The sense of existential security. Of being able to raise children without abject fear, without the humiliation of occupation or the dread of terrorism. The basic human desires for family and livelihood and study. The fabric of life.
Among the two peoples today, the agents of despair and hatred have practically taken over, so it may be hard to believe that the picture I’ve described is truly possible. But a situation of peace will start to produce the agents of hope and closeness and optimism; it will give rise to more people who have a practical interest, unrelated to ideology, in creating more and more ties with members of the other people. Perhaps eventually, after some years, a deeper attachment will evolve, even genuine friendship between these two peoples, and those human beings. Such things have happened. But for now let us suffice with all those mundane situations in which Israelis and Palestinians could live with one another like human beings.
We, the people who have gathered at this Israel Conference on Peace cling to this hope, and preserve it in our heart. We cannot afford the luxury and indulgence of despair. The situation is too desperate to be left to the despairing, for accepting despair amounts to an admission that we’ve been defeated. Defeated not on the battlefield, but as human beings. Something deep and vital to us as humans was taken away, was stolen from us, the moment we agreed to let despair to have a dominion.
He whose policy is essentially a thinly veiled, profound despair is placing Israel in mortal danger. He who behaves thus cannot pretend to speak about being “a free people in our land.” He may sing “Hatikva,” “The Hope,” our national anthem but in his voice we hear: Our despair is not yet lost, the despair of two thousand years.
We who have gathered here today, and many others who are with us in spirit, insist upon hope. A hope that is not wide-eyed, a hope that won’t give up. A hope that gives us – Israelis and Palestinians both – our only chance to resist the gravitational pull of despair.
Feel free to debate the other points, then? No one has yet commented on my point of international, humanitarian involvement. No one has yet commented on the practical differences between "15 seconds" of warning before a random attack and many minutes of warning before a concentrated and targeted attack. You guys all just want to ask questions and disagree instead of offering plausible alternatives. If you want the thread for easy decisions go talk hamburgers and brats (it's brats, obviously).
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 10:15:42 AM
I don't think there is any path to discourse with one of your first principles being that none of us can have an equally valid position as the Israeli government. It is really an amazing position to hold for someone that lives and grew up in a democratic republic.
It's not you can't have a discussion, you're just not making very good points/arguments.
First, and I don't think you're arguing this, there is not a moral equivalence between the Israelis and the palestinian terrorists. The Israelis are taking every conceivable step to prevent civilian deaths while defending their homeland, whereas Hamas is both targeting Israeli civilians and encouraging its own civilians to die.
Second, as for the "peace process", that is entirely up to the palestinians. It is simple logic that you cannot make peace with a neighbor if you deny that neighbor's right to exist. Once the palestinians clear that hurdle, peace is possible, but not until then, and a majority of palestinians currently favor terrorist government. Thus, those who condemn Israel for not making peace either (1) are ignorant of the foregoing logic, or (2) secretly or not-so-secretly believe that the very existence of Israel is the problem.
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 10:21:18 AM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 10:25:51 AM
I don't think there is any path to discourse with one of your first principles being that none of us can have an equally valid position as the Israeli government. It is really an amazing position to hold for someone that lives and grew up in a democratic republic.
It's not you can't have a discussion, you're just not making very good points/arguments.
First, and I don't think you're arguing this, there is not a moral equivalence between the Israelis and the palestinian terrorists. The Israelis are taking every conceivable step to prevent civilian deaths while defending their homeland, whereas Hamas is both targeting Israeli civilians and encouraging its own civilians to die.
Second, as for the "peace process", that is entirely up to the palestinians. It is simple logic that you cannot make peace with a neighbor if you deny that neighbor's right to exist. Once the palestinians clear that hurdle, peace is possible, but not until then, and a majority of palestinians currently favor terrorist government. Thus, those who condemn Israel for not making peace either (1) are ignorant of the foregoing logic, or (2) secretly or not-so-secretly believe that the very existence of Israel is the problem.
Hamas is definitely awful, but is Israel's policy making the situation any better? Are their actions bringing them closer to peace?
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 10:29:45 AM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Debate me then? Offer plausible alternatives. Disagree with something I've put forward as fact which isn't so. Actually go through the mechanics of having a discussion. That's what we're here for. If I kicked us off that path then I did so unintentionally and I apologize and will try not to do it again.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 23, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
I don't think there is any path to discourse with one of your first principles being that none of us can have an equally valid position as the Israeli government. It is really an amazing position to hold for someone that lives and grew up in a democratic republic.
It's not you can't have a discussion, you're just not making very good points/arguments.
First, and I don't think you're arguing this, there is not a moral equivalence between the Israelis and the palestinian terrorists. The Israelis are taking every conceivable step to prevent civilian deaths while defending their homeland, whereas Hamas is both targeting Israeli civilians and encouraging its own civilians to die.
Second, as for the "peace process", that is entirely up to the palestinians. It is simple logic that you cannot make peace with a neighbor if you deny that neighbor's right to exist. Once the palestinians clear that hurdle, peace is possible, but not until then, and a majority of palestinians currently favor terrorist government. Thus, those who condemn Israel for not making peace either (1) are ignorant of the foregoing logic, or (2) secretly or not-so-secretly believe that the very existence of Israel is the problem.
Mahmoud Abbas/Fatah/PLO has recognized Israel's right to exist for quite awhile now. Obviously Hamas has not, and they are absolutely wrong to not.
Going by election results and through opinion polling, the majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas. Hamas won one election in Gaza in 2006 and then fought a civil war to eject all PA/Fatah leadership. In an attempt to bring Hamas toward the peace process there was a unity government that was announced that featured zero Hamas members in the cabinet. Obviously that plan did not work for a variety of reasons, but I don't think there is any real claim that Abu Mazen has not been a partner for peace in the face of tremendous pressure and a lot of Israeli intransigence on issues like continued settlements in the West Bank.
I don't have an up-to-date poll because I didn't look that hard but Hamas' poll numbers were pretty bad a year ago.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-Hamas-continues-to-lose-popularity-among-Palestinians-309372 (http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-Hamas-continues-to-lose-popularity-among-Palestinians-309372)
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 10:58:45 AM
http://news.sky.com/story/678761/israeli-army-t-shirts-mock-gaza-killings
There are a bunch more stories with more links/pics to the t-shirts in question. They certainly troll hard.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 11:05:01 AM
I don't think there is any path to discourse with one of your first principles being that none of us can have an equally valid position as the Israeli government. It is really an amazing position to hold for someone that lives and grew up in a democratic republic.
It's not you can't have a discussion, you're just not making very good points/arguments.
First, and I don't think you're arguing this, there is not a moral equivalence between the Israelis and the palestinian terrorists. The Israelis are taking every conceivable step to prevent civilian deaths while defending their homeland, whereas Hamas is both targeting Israeli civilians and encouraging its own civilians to die.
Second, as for the "peace process", that is entirely up to the palestinians. It is simple logic that you cannot make peace with a neighbor if you deny that neighbor's right to exist. Once the palestinians clear that hurdle, peace is possible, but not until then, and a majority of palestinians currently favor terrorist government. Thus, those who condemn Israel for not making peace either (1) are ignorant of the foregoing logic, or (2) secretly or not-so-secretly believe that the very existence of Israel is the problem.
Mahmoud Abbas/Fatah/PLO has recognized Israel's right to exist for quite awhile now. Obviously Hamas has not, and they are absolutely wrong to not.
That is news to me. A quick google search reveals a number of Fatah/PLO/PA officials, including Abbas, publicly denying Israel's right to exist. Maybe others have, but that's a big part of the problem. Palestinian governance is a corrupt, disorganized mess. Even when Arrafat was in charge and negotiating at Camp David, he lacked authority to reach any sort of agreement.
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 11:23:34 AM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Debate me then? Offer plausible alternatives. Disagree with something I've put forward as fact which isn't so. Actually go through the mechanics of having a discussion. That's what we're here for. If I kicked us off that path then I did so unintentionally and I apologize and will try not to do it again.
I started to, and you replied that all Israel has is "brilliance, innovation, and righteousness".
Post by: Kat Kid on July 23, 2014, 11:29:26 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 11:58:06 AM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Debate me then? Offer plausible alternatives. Disagree with something I've put forward as fact which isn't so. Actually go through the mechanics of having a discussion. That's what we're here for. If I kicked us off that path then I did so unintentionally and I apologize and will try not to do it again.
I started to, and you replied that all Israel has is "brilliance, innovation, and righteousness".
Tap out noted bad person.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 11:58:51 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 12:04:26 PM
Do honestly you think you have presented any reasonable, debatable points?
Apparently none that you're capable of debating.
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Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 12:05:59 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 12:15:35 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 23, 2014, 12:34:15 PM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Debate me then? Offer plausible alternatives. Disagree with something I've put forward as fact which isn't so. Actually go through the mechanics of having a discussion. That's what we're here for. If I kicked us off that path then I did so unintentionally and I apologize and will try not to do it again.
I started to, and you replied that all Israel has is "brilliance, innovation, and righteousness".
Did he really post that?
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 12:36:05 PM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Debate me then? Offer plausible alternatives. Disagree with something I've put forward as fact which isn't so. Actually go through the mechanics of having a discussion. That's what we're here for. If I kicked us off that path then I did so unintentionally and I apologize and will try not to do it again.
I started to, and you replied that all Israel has is "brilliance, innovation, and righteousness".
Did he really post that?
basically
The fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate.
it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".
Oh c'mon, how many other democratic nations with a strong military have forced enlistment? They have earned their military might (which is regional, at best, and only because the Arab states are laughably unorganized). In a World Cup of strategic conflict, Israel might not even qualify for the tournament, and certainly doesn't make it past the group stage. Either way, it's not like they hold some sort of leverage card that forces people to give them aid. They have no natural resources or keystone industries. It's just righteousness, brilliance, and innovation. That's all they have, and kudos to them for defending it like a wolverine backed into a corner, which is essentially their predicament.
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 12:36:39 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
What about Israeli West Bank settlers? Should they be removed?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 23, 2014, 12:42:05 PM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 12:50:00 PM
I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in the matter. I'm just saying I know more than you because of my life experiences. But we're both far from experts. FWIW, the Israelis are the experts, and they are doing what they think is best. No one here is in a strong position to say it's the wrong thing. We're all just armchair quarterbacking this thing.
You definitely know more than me about the views of your particular coworkers because of your life experiences, which is definitely valid and valuable.
But it doesn't seem like you know much more about the situation beyond that (than anyone).
Debate me then? Offer plausible alternatives. Disagree with something I've put forward as fact which isn't so. Actually go through the mechanics of having a discussion. That's what we're here for. If I kicked us off that path then I did so unintentionally and I apologize and will try not to do it again.
I started to, and you replied that all Israel has is "brilliance, innovation, and righteousness".
Did he really post that?
basicallyThe fact that Israel still stands as a contributing member of the world against pretty poor odds proves that the way they handle things is correct, or at the bare minimum, adequate.
it proves they have received a lot of foreign aid that helped them build a strong military, but I'm not sure it proves they are "right".
Oh c'mon, how many other democratic nations with a strong military have forced enlistment? They have earned their military might (which is regional, at best, and only because the Arab states are laughably unorganized). In a World Cup of strategic conflict, Israel might not even qualify for the tournament, and certainly doesn't make it past the group stage. Either way, it's not like they hold some sort of leverage card that forces people to give them aid. They have no natural resources or keystone industries. It's just righteousness, brilliance, and innovation. That's all they have, and kudos to them for defending it like a wolverine backed into a corner, which is essentially their predicament.
That was an obvious troll (I thought).
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Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 23, 2014, 12:51:51 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 12:53:55 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Ha. No, silly. I mean to avoid the bombs. And isn't it weird that Gaza is able to have several minutes of warning but Israel only has 15 seconds? Also, from your description, it sounds like Israel would be better off letting Hamas import some safer, more accurate rockets.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 12:54:32 PM
No it wasn't, but it's fine. You do you
I figured righteousness would give it away. Dense crowd.
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Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 23, 2014, 12:55:52 PM
No it wasn't, but it's fine. You do you
I figured righteousness would give it away. Dense crowd.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Posting what you truly believe isn't trolling
Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 12:57:19 PM
No it wasn't, but it's fine. You do you
I figured righteousness would give it away. Dense crowd.
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can't decide if parody so am disengaging
Before disengage suggest an alternative?
Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 01:04:14 PM
[attachment deleted by admin]
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 01:09:53 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Ha. No, silly. I mean to avoid the bombs. And isn't it weird that Gaza is able to have several minutes of warning but Israel only has 15 seconds? Also, from your description, it sounds like Israel would be better off letting Hamas import some safer, more accurate rockets.
As long as their a half-mile (conservative) from the launch site of the rockets I'd say they're safe. Gaza is probably bigger than 100 square miles so plenty of space to move about.
I don't care to debate specifics down to the second, but it's safe to assume the time as I detailed it earlier means that someone living in Gaza gets an order of magnitude more time than someone living in Israel. It might be minutes compared to seconds, or many minutes compared to much fewer minutes.
Post by: CNS on July 23, 2014, 01:47:47 PM
Also, Gaza from space:
I would move to one of the areas without light.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 23, 2014, 02:01:56 PM
But, they opt to be controlled by outside influences, many of them who work out of high rise hotels in Dubai, and fly around in private jets wearing Armani suits.
Post by: CNS on July 23, 2014, 02:07:19 PM
Post by: Jabeez on July 23, 2014, 02:09:29 PM
Imagine the prosperity and propping up by outside entities like the U.S. (who I believe just gave the Palestinians something like $47 million bucks) the Palestinians would get if they, you know, tossed out Hamas, renounced the destruction of Israel and was, you know, cool.Interesting if this is true.
But, they opt to be controlled by outside influences, many of them who work out of high rise hotels in Dubai, and fly around in private jets wearing Armani suits.
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 02:32:46 PM
Imagine the prosperity and propping up by outside entities like the U.S. (who I believe just gave the Palestinians something like $47 million bucks) the Palestinians would get if they, you know, tossed out Hamas, renounced the destruction of Israel and was, you know, cool.
But, they opt to be controlled by outside influences, many of them who work out of high rise hotels in Dubai, and fly around in private jets wearing Armani suits.
Can't we just have Israel use the money we give them to get rid of Hamas? We need to see a return on that crap.
Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 02:57:41 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Ha. No, silly. I mean to avoid the bombs. And isn't it weird that Gaza is able to have several minutes of warning but Israel only has 15 seconds? Also, from your description, it sounds like Israel would be better off letting Hamas import some safer, more accurate rockets.
As long as their a half-mile (conservative) from the launch site of the rockets I'd say they're safe. Gaza is probably bigger than 100 square miles so plenty of space to move about.
I don't care to debate specifics down to the second, but it's safe to assume the time as I detailed it earlier means that someone living in Gaza gets an order of magnitude more time than someone living in Israel. It might be minutes compared to seconds, or many minutes compared to much fewer minutes.
They're bombing all of Gaza, Emo. And the borders are blockaded. And why does Gaza have a better early warning system than Israel?
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 02:59:44 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Ha. No, silly. I mean to avoid the bombs. And isn't it weird that Gaza is able to have several minutes of warning but Israel only has 15 seconds? Also, from your description, it sounds like Israel would be better off letting Hamas import some safer, more accurate rockets.
As long as their a half-mile (conservative) from the launch site of the rockets I'd say they're safe. Gaza is probably bigger than 100 square miles so plenty of space to move about.
I don't care to debate specifics down to the second, but it's safe to assume the time as I detailed it earlier means that someone living in Gaza gets an order of magnitude more time than someone living in Israel. It might be minutes compared to seconds, or many minutes compared to much fewer minutes.
They're bombing all of Gaza, Emo. And the borders are blockaded. And why does Gaza have a better early warning system than Israel?
Are they carpet bombing? No, they are targeted.
Gaza has a superior early warning system because they can see the rockets rolling into town. That's when they relocate half mile down the road, when those fuckers are setting them up getting ready to launch.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 03:05:29 PM
Emo, where should the Palestinians go?
They can stay right where they are and live in peace.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Ha. No, silly. I mean to avoid the bombs. And isn't it weird that Gaza is able to have several minutes of warning but Israel only has 15 seconds? Also, from your description, it sounds like Israel would be better off letting Hamas import some safer, more accurate rockets.
As long as their a half-mile (conservative) from the launch site of the rockets I'd say they're safe. Gaza is probably bigger than 100 square miles so plenty of space to move about.
I don't care to debate specifics down to the second, but it's safe to assume the time as I detailed it earlier means that someone living in Gaza gets an order of magnitude more time than someone living in Israel. It might be minutes compared to seconds, or many minutes compared to much fewer minutes.
They're bombing all of Gaza, Emo. And the borders are blockaded. And why does Gaza have a better early warning system than Israel?
Are they carpet bombing? No, they are targeted.
Gaza has a superior early warning system because they can see the rockets rolling into town. That's when they relocate half mile down the road, when those fuckers are setting them up getting ready to launch.
And also because the IDF usually warns them ahead of time. That's really nice of them. I'm sure Hamas would do the same except for the blockade and stuff...
Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 03:15:05 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 03:18:56 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 23, 2014, 03:22:06 PM
Do you think the IDF strikes would be more effective if they simply targeted all the schools and hospitals? Those seem to be the armories or choice for Hamas.
I think that post just kind of speaks for itself.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 03:22:36 PM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc2.nrostatic.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fuploaded%2Fpic_related_121813_Pajama-Boy-The-Obama-Machines-Id.jpg&hash=31ec4f2f5d11206f3c5d9e32fbcb38cb1a54b828)
Post by: Kat Kid on July 23, 2014, 03:28:56 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 03:37:32 PM
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 03:49:49 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
no one but you has mentioned "proportionate response"
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on July 23, 2014, 03:51:16 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 04:18:14 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
That's assuming that the best way to go about this would 1) end the conflict, and 2) not piss off people they can't risk pissing off.
I've mentioned before that I believe that nothing that Israel is capable of doing by itself can end the conflict. Still waiting for someone to suggest something (going on several pages now).
Post by: Kat Kid on July 23, 2014, 04:19:24 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
Two points and then I think I'm done for awhile:
1) The "armchair generals" talking point is lobbed out there to stifle any further discussion. To say that no one can have a valid opinion on the matter besides the Israeli government and that there is no criteria by which any decision the Israelis make can be evaluated because we have either insufficient information, insufficient moral standing to evaluate their actions or both. If that is your position, that's fine, but then the onus is on you to stop participating and not anyone else. I mean imagine if someone said "You can't discuss any Israeli concerns unless you have had your house bombed by the IDF because you can never understand what a Gazan is thinking."
2) You have said almost nothing about what the long-range strategy is. Let's assume Israel completely defeats and disarms Hamas. Will there be peace? If not, then what can Israel do? What should Israel do? I mean I assume almost everyone on here strategically wants similar things once the time horizon is moved out far enough. If that is the case then the endless discussion of tactics is only relevant in whether it gets Israel closer or further away from that goal. Equivocating on the moral standing of specific tactics or looking at some sort of immediate tactical victory is all you are wanting to argue about, then I guess that is all you will see.
As was just said, if tactical victories resulted in strategic and political ones then we wouldn't be talking about this at all.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 23, 2014, 04:26:51 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 04:31:40 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
That's assuming that the best way to go about this would 1) end the conflict, and 2) not piss off people they can't risk pissing off.
I've mentioned before that I believe that nothing that Israel is capable of doing by itself can end the conflict. Still waiting for someone to suggest something (going on several pages now).
I asked if you thought Israel should do something about West Bank settlements. Not saying stopping and removing existing settlements would fix things, but maybe be a nice, fair step to some form of peace?
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 04:33:53 PM
The US could end it by cutting off the money and restricting all travel. But they will never do that.
Israel is much more important to humanity on a global scale than their opponents. Worst case scenario it would be better to turn their local enemies to glass than to lose Israel.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 04:35:16 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
That's assuming that the best way to go about this would 1) end the conflict, and 2) not piss off people they can't risk pissing off.
I've mentioned before that I believe that nothing that Israel is capable of doing by itself can end the conflict. Still waiting for someone to suggest something (going on several pages now).
I asked if you thought Israel should do something about West Bank settlements. Not saying stopping and removing existing settlements would fix things, but maybe be a nice, fair step to some form of peace?
Ya Ima think on that one a bit and respond tomorrow. If I didn't think you would take it the wrong way I would even say I might ponder it over a some brie and a nice glass of cabernet.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 23, 2014, 04:35:40 PM
The US could end it by cutting off the money and restricting all travel. But they will never do that.
Israel is much more important to humanity on a global scale than their opponents. Worst case scenario it would be better to turn their local enemies to glass than to lose Israel.
said one Israeli to the other
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 04:42:56 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
That's assuming that the best way to go about this would 1) end the conflict, and 2) not piss off people they can't risk pissing off.
I've mentioned before that I believe that nothing that Israel is capable of doing by itself can end the conflict. Still waiting for someone to suggest something (going on several pages now).
I asked if you thought Israel should do something about West Bank settlements. Not saying stopping and removing existing settlements would fix things, but maybe be a nice, fair step to some form of peace?
Ya Ima think on that one a bit and respond tomorrow. If I didn't think you would take it the wrong way I would even say I might ponder it over a some brie and a nice glass of cabernet.
I'm honestly not sure if this is the first time you've pondered Israeli settlements before or not. Congrats?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on July 23, 2014, 04:44:45 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
That's assuming that the best way to go about this would 1) end the conflict, and 2) not piss off people they can't risk pissing off.
I've mentioned before that I believe that nothing that Israel is capable of doing by itself can end the conflict. Still waiting for someone to suggest something (going on several pages now).
I asked if you thought Israel should do something about West Bank settlements. Not saying stopping and removing existing settlements would fix things, but maybe be a nice, fair step to some form of peace?
Ya Ima think on that one a bit and respond tomorrow. If I didn't think you would take it the wrong way I would even say I might ponder it over a some brie and a nice glass of cabernet.
Look at you, acting like a sophisticated adult.
Post by: felix rex on July 23, 2014, 04:58:11 PM
The US could end it by cutting off the money and restricting all travel. But they will never do that.
Israel is much more important to humanity on a global scale than their opponents. Worst case scenario it would be better to turn their local enemies to glass than to lose Israel.
I'm guessing this has all been some admirable parody now and am giving you credit for reeling me in. A tip o' the cap to you, good sir.
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 05:00:35 PM
The US could end it by cutting off the money and restricting all travel. But they will never do that.
Israel is much more important to humanity on a global scale than their opponents. Worst case scenario it would be better to turn their local enemies to glass than to lose Israel.
I'm guessing this has all been some admirable parody now and am giving you credit for reeling me in. A tip o' the cap to you, good sir.
yeah
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 23, 2014, 05:02:29 PM
Not trolling, just having a little laugh at all the armchair generals who believe that Israel doesn't know the best way to go about this.
The "proportionate response" crowd (I think our venerable John Kerry has been playing that up a lot lately) is pretty absurd on its face. Does that mean Israel, instead of a targeted ground invasion, should just hurl rockets into Gaza without warning, the same as Hamas?
I would think that if Israel knew the best way to go about this, then the conflict would be over by now.
That's assuming that the best way to go about this would 1) end the conflict, and 2) not piss off people they can't risk pissing off.
I've mentioned before that I believe that nothing that Israel is capable of doing by itself can end the conflict. Still waiting for someone to suggest something (going on several pages now).
I asked if you thought Israel should do something about West Bank settlements. Not saying stopping and removing existing settlements would fix things, but maybe be a nice, fair step to some form of peace?
Ya Ima think on that one a bit and respond tomorrow. If I didn't think you would take it the wrong way I would even say I might ponder it over a some brie and a nice glass of cabernet.
I'm honestly not sure if this is the first time you've pondered Israeli settlements before or not. Congrats?
I mean I know what my visceral reaction is. Sometimes that's good enough. Here's the crux of my pondering: if the UN recognizes the State of Palestine, why don't they do anything about the settlements? They must either 1) not actually recognize it as a sovereign state, or 2) not see anything wrong with the settlements. I guess bonus #3 is they DNGAF.
Post by: michigancat on July 23, 2014, 05:20:54 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 08:13:47 PM
But even if Israel were to cede control of the entire West Bank, do you really in your heart of hearts believe that that would make a damned bit of difference in ending Palestinian aggression?
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 23, 2014, 08:38:43 PM
Post by: DQ12 on July 23, 2014, 09:04:21 PM
Israel is much more important to humanity on a global scale than their opponents. Worst case scenario it would be better to turn their local enemies to glass than to lose Israel.This one is the best one.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 24, 2014, 01:02:36 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 25, 2014, 02:01:11 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 02:42:25 PM
This presser is an appropriately emblematic clusterfuck.
which one?
Post by: felix rex on July 25, 2014, 02:46:10 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 25, 2014, 03:45:26 PM
And that's the just the stupid presser crap that "trickled up" from the support staff.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Post by: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 03:49:52 PM
:D
Post by: felix rex on July 25, 2014, 03:50:30 PM
"Most of the pictures feature women with 'I <3 IDF' emblazoned on various body parts, but the page celebrated 15,000 likes by featuring a photo of a girl who had written 'eff Hamas'on her butt cheeks."
Post by: felix rex on July 25, 2014, 03:57:27 PM
that's a great report, felix
:D
I take my role as the goEMAW foreign correspondent very, very srsly
Post by: felix rex on July 25, 2014, 04:00:41 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 25, 2014, 04:08:53 PM
Anyway, back to more important things: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/a-new-facebook-page-dedicated-to-the-idf-is-being-flooded-with-sexy-selfies.html
"Most of the pictures feature women with 'I <3 IDF' emblazoned on various body parts, but the page celebrated 15,000 likes by featuring a photo of a girl who had written 'eff Hamas'on her butt cheeks."
what a wacky world we live in
Post by: Cartierfor3 on July 25, 2014, 05:53:51 PM
The US could end it by cutting off the money and restricting all travel. But they will never do that.
This wouldn't end it long term IMO
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 28, 2014, 11:28:49 AM
Quote
Following are excerpts from the guidelines:
"Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don't forget to always add 'innocent civilian' or 'innocent citizen' in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza.
"Begin [your reports of] news of resistance actions with the phrase 'In response to the cruel Israeli attack,' and conclude with the phrase 'This many people have been martyred since Israel launched its aggression against Gaza.' Be sure to always perpetuate the principle of 'the role of the occupation is attack, and we in Palestine are fulfilling [the role of] the reaction.'
"Beware of spreading rumors from Israeli spokesmen, particularly those that harm the home front. Be wary regarding accepting the occupation's version [of events]. You must always cast doubts on this [version], disprove it, and treat it as false.
"Avoid publishing pictures of rockets fired into Israel from [Gaza] city centers. This [would] provide a pretext for attacking residential areas in the Gaza Strip. Do not publish or share photos or video clips showing rocket launching sites or the movement of resistance [forces] in Gaza.
"To the administrators of news pages on Facebook: Do not publish close-ups of masked men with heavy weapons, so that your page will not be shut down [by Facebook] on the claim that you are inciting violence. In your coverage, be sure that you say: 'The locally manufactured shells fired by the resistance are a natural response to the Israeli occupation that deliberately fires rockets against civilians in the West Bank and Gaza'..."
Additionally, the interior ministry prepared a series of suggestions specifically for Palestinian activists who speak to Westerners via social media. The ministry emphasizes that conversations with them should be conducted differently from conversations with other Arabs. It stated:
- "When speaking to the West, you must use political, rational, and persuasive discourse, and avoid emotional discourse aimed at begging for sympathy. There are elements with a conscience in the world; you must maintain contact with them and activate them for the benefit of Palestine. Their role is to shame the occupation and expose its violations.
- "Avoid entering into a political argument with a Westerner aimed at convincing him that the Holocaust is a lie and deceit; instead, equate it with Israel's crimes against Palestinian civilians.
- "The narrative of life vs. the narrative of blood: [When speaking] to an Arab friend, start with the number of martyrs. [But when speaking] to a Western friend, start with the number of wounded and dead. Be sure to humanize the Palestinian suffering. Try to paint a picture of the suffering of the civilians in Gaza and the West Bank during the occupation's operations and its bombings of cities and villages.
- "Do not publish photos of military commanders. Do not mention their names in public, and do not praise their achievements in conversations with foreign friends!"
:lol:
Post by: Kat Kid on July 28, 2014, 12:10:34 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 28, 2014, 12:19:11 PM
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html)
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602688 (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602688)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.squarespace.com%2Fstatic%2F5126bbb4e4b08c2e6d1cb6e4%2Ft%2F539ede6fe4b09fc82dfc1ba4%2F1402920562493%2F&hash=ecdee41426099973bf6ede02fd8a533d6b42a44d)
http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/ (http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/)
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 28, 2014, 01:08:54 PM
I know this may come as a bit of a surprise, but it seems like Israel may not have been 100% forthcoming about all aspects of there case for Hamas actually murdering the 3 Israelis.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html)
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602688 (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602688)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.squarespace.com%2Fstatic%2F5126bbb4e4b08c2e6d1cb6e4%2Ft%2F539ede6fe4b09fc82dfc1ba4%2F1402920562493%2F&hash=ecdee41426099973bf6ede02fd8a533d6b42a44d)
http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/ (http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/)
So instead of Hamas, it was just a random pack of jew-hating palestinians? And this matters why?
Post by: Kat Kid on July 28, 2014, 01:15:28 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6)
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 28, 2014, 01:27:09 PM
Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.
http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6)
Huh - I thought the main reasons for the invasion were the barrage of rocket attacks and tunnel network. Seems like a pretty trivial thing to be quibbling over.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 28, 2014, 04:53:44 PM
Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.
http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6)
Did you actually believe that?
Post by: Kat Kid on July 28, 2014, 04:56:11 PM
Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.
http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6)
Did you actually believe that?
I don't know what you mean. Here is what I was referring to:
Quote
On his Facebook page, Netanyahu was clear in assigning responsibility. He wrote that the three were "murdered in cold blood by human animals," and he promised that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6#ixzz38npkIrNj
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 28, 2014, 05:00:44 PM
Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.
http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6)
Did you actually believe that?
I don't know what you mean. Here is what I was referring to:QuoteOn his Facebook page, Netanyahu was clear in assigning responsibility. He wrote that the three were "murdered in cold blood by human animals," and he promised that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6#ixzz38npkIrNj
I just meant that I myself didn't think the death of those three teens had any bearing on Israel making the offensive.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 28, 2014, 09:14:32 PM
Post by: felix rex on July 29, 2014, 03:28:56 AM
I also thought get bombed was sufficient reason to counter attack.
Wait, whose perspective are we talking about here?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 29, 2014, 07:43:25 AM
:dunno:
Post by: Kat Kid on July 29, 2014, 08:53:18 AM
I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population. Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.
:dunno:
I think you should re-read the thread. I don't like Hamas. I want Israel to live in peace and that means negotiating with the other side at some point. It is pretty obvious that this incursion is not suddenly going to make Israel safer just like the last one didn't succeed. None of that means that there is any moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, there is not. I don't think wanting Israel to make different strategic decisions means I am stealthily supporting Hamas, but that is exactly the kind of thing I would say, wouldn't it be?
I think we can all agree that if only Israel had a true moral and decisive leader like your hero Slobodan Milosovich this would all be going much better.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 29, 2014, 09:24:51 AM
I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population. Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.
:dunno:
I think you should re-read the thread. I don't like Hamas. I want Israel to live in peace and that means negotiating with the other side at some point. It is pretty obvious that this incursion is not suddenly going to make Israel safer just like the last one didn't succeed. None of that means that there is any moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, there is not. I don't think wanting Israel to make different strategic decisions means I am stealthily supporting Hamas, but that is exactly the kind of thing I would say, wouldn't it be?
I think we can all agree that if only Israel had a true moral and decisive leader like your hero Slobodan Milosovich this would all be going much better.
You want Israel to "negotiate" a peace without acknowledging the simple fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization that will negotiate nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Until the palestinian people want to peacefully coexist with Israel, and elect leaders with authority to make that peace (even Arafat didn't have such a mandate, nor does Abbas, and obviously Hamas doesn't), peace won't happen. It's up to the palestinians. Until then, Israel must defend itself.
As for defending itself, it is not "pretty obvious" that the current offensive won't make Israel safer. That's not "pretty obvious" at all. The tunnel network needs to be destroyed. At lease in the short term, the rocket attacks will be reduced. There is a reason for the offensive.
You have a tendency to gloss over these simple facts. You also make dumb comments like you did above about how Netanyahu "lied" about Hamas killing three Israeli teens, as if that was the basis for the current offensive. It wasn't. If you really are pro-Israel and just playing devil's advocate, you're not doing it very well.
Post by: felix rex on July 29, 2014, 09:28:03 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 29, 2014, 09:36:31 AM
I will simply add that I never claimed that the three murdered teens were the primary cause for the fighting. I brought it up when we were talking about a tangential topic.
Again, I encourage you to retrace our steps here if you aren't clear on any of the points you brought up.
Post by: michigancat on July 29, 2014, 09:39:58 AM
Post by: felix rex on July 29, 2014, 11:54:17 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on July 29, 2014, 12:14:48 PM
I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population. Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.
:dunno:
Not very cool to talk about the USA like that dax
Post by: OK_Cat on July 29, 2014, 12:45:59 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 29, 2014, 02:33:11 PM
I keep repeating the same things on my views, they are all over this thread so I don't honestly know what more there is to add. Going point-by-point is pretty tedious work at this point. I don't think there is any new ground covered in that post ksuw.
I will simply add that I never claimed that the three murdered teens were the primary cause for the fighting. I brought it up when we were talking about a tangential topic.
Again, I encourage you to retrace our steps here if you aren't clear on any of the points you brought up.
As far as I can tell, your position is that Israel should take bombs up their ass until they've made enough concessions to work out a deal agreeable to the Hamas government of Palestine, which is, of course, completely absurd.
Post by: Kat Kid on July 29, 2014, 11:03:47 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-calls-for-immediate-cease-fire-in-gaza-as-lull-in-fighting-prevails/2014/07/28/01dea116-9195-424b-85b1-da93899d8250_story.html?hpid=z1 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-calls-for-immediate-cease-fire-in-gaza-as-lull-in-fighting-prevails/2014/07/28/01dea116-9195-424b-85b1-da93899d8250_story.html?hpid=z1)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-srv%2Fspecial%2Fworld%2Fimages%2F07282014-gaza-large.jpg%3Fv%3D1&hash=96165a140d40db8aaf680d9d1cec99a28ee1b1ff)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-srv%2Fspecial%2Fworld%2Fimages%2F07282014-gaza-1.jpg&hash=8966e0956e3c3ba80cd6b11319b73e20a5dbee97)(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-srv%2Fspecial%2Fworld%2Fimages%2F07282014-gaza-2.jpg&hash=94bddd491bd47bba964c70f6c88d88c18d0322d6)
Post by: _33 on July 29, 2014, 11:24:21 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 29, 2014, 11:39:58 PM
Post by: Cire on July 29, 2014, 11:44:23 PM
What on earth do some of you want Israel to do besides what they're doing right now? What is the alternative?
Post by: Kat Kid on July 30, 2014, 12:46:02 AM
What on earth do some of you want Israel to do besides what they're doing right now? What is the alternative?
Well, that is kind of broad. There are lots of things, lots of people are doing.
I think, for instance, that Israel destroying 40% of Gaza to construct a "buffer" would be a pretty big mistake not just because of how terrible it would be for the people living in Gaza, but also because of how badly it will harm Israel in the long term. I also think that Netanyahu's policy of settlement expansion and his unwillingness to strengthen Abbas (thus strengthening Hamas) has turned out pretty badly.
I think that there is lots and lots of evidence that the blockade on Gaza has not solved any of the fundamental security problems that face Israel (although it has unquestionably completely ended suicide bombings) and I think it is unreasonable to conclude that this incursion will solve any problems from Israel's perspective. It just strikes me as incredibly short sighted even when judged on what Netanyahu and the IDF have stated are their objectives.
I think the only hope is for Israel long term is to realize that Abbas is the best partner for peace they have. Israel and Abbas have a mutual interest in restoring the PA as the governing authority of Gaza, end the blockade, expand fishing rights in the Mediterranean, freeze settlement expansion in the West Bank and start negotiating a two-state solution. Obviously Hamas could try to stop all that.
Best case scenario: Israel thinks they can weaken Hamas to the point that Abbas can sweep in and negotiate all this stuff and be the savior, but I kind of doubt it. Netanyahu has lots of pre-conditions that seem completely unacceptable to a Palestinian state: (Israel controlling the borders of the West Bank for example) and I think the longer that this fighting goes on, the more likely it is that Hamas is replaced by an even more extreme group.
Post by: felix rex on July 30, 2014, 02:08:44 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 30, 2014, 05:43:36 AM
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 06:29:06 AM
Why wont you Palestinians just love Israel!
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on July 30, 2014, 08:41:05 AM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FH0NSLBk.jpg&hash=0a6c97a20c306309e41465383e263c948ad5aaea)
Why wont you Palestinians just love Israel!
Hey, that's what tel aviv would look like without the rest of the world backing them.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 30, 2014, 09:34:04 AM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 30, 2014, 09:54:09 AM
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 06:41:24 PM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FH0NSLBk.jpg&hash=0a6c97a20c306309e41465383e263c948ad5aaea)
Why wont you Palestinians just love Israel!
Hey, that's what tel aviv would look like without the rest of the world backing them.
:lol: No, just no... :lol: Israel needs no one to defend itself. But more to the point you've missed the disproportional response of collective punishment by Israel.
Post by: DQ12 on July 30, 2014, 07:15:40 PM
Israel needs no one to defend itself.Oh? Then why are they requesting over 3 billion dollars for military aid from the US in 2014?
Post by: _33 on July 30, 2014, 07:42:34 PM
:lol: No, just no... :lol: Israel needs no one to defend itself.
That's a silly statement. As we speak the IDF is being resupplied with ammunition from U.S. controlled stockpiles held within Israel in case of emergency.
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 08:00:01 PM
Post by: _33 on July 30, 2014, 08:04:15 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 30, 2014, 08:12:13 PM
:lol: No, just no... :lol: Israel needs no one to defend itself. But more to the point you've missed the disproportional response of collective punishment by Israel.
There it is! It took 11 pages, but one of the libtards finally trots out the "proportionality" trope. And it was Edna. Of course it was Edna. Bravo!
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 09:08:30 PM
:lol: No, just no... :lol: Israel needs no one to defend itself. But more to the point you've missed the disproportional response of collective punishment by Israel.
There it is! It took 11 pages, but one of the libtards finally trots out the "proportionality" trope. And it was Edna. Of course it was Edna. Bravo!
6 UN personnel killed, 133 schools hit, 6 specific UN shelters have been hit. All the while Israel has a relative blanket of safety because of the Iron Dome. You either know nothing about how many have died, what Israel's capabilities are, or, have no sense of proportion, well I guess it could be both. Maybe we should look to the American ROE.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 30, 2014, 09:32:05 PM
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 09:51:27 PM
I guess the moral of the story is . . . don't fire rockets at Israel.
I guess don't live in the camp of Gaza too right?
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 30, 2014, 10:36:15 PM
I guess the moral of the story is . . . don't fire rockets at Israel.
No, no, no. The moral is, it's got to be proportional. These targeted attacks by Israel have got to end. The Israelis need to take off their uniforms, strap on some woman/child body armor, and start lobbing rockets indiscriminately into Gaza. Gotta keep things equal here.
Also, it's a funny coincidence just how many of those "civilian deaths" reported by the UN (which the UN gets from... Hamas), happen to be young males. Hmmmm.....
Edna, you are a true Pit gem. Never stop.
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 10:38:10 PM
I guess the moral of the story is . . . don't fire rockets at Israel.
No, no, no. The moral is, it's got to be proportional. These targeted attacks by Israel have got to end. The Israelis need to take off their uniforms, strap on some woman/child body armor, and start lobbing rockets indiscriminately into Gaza. Gotta keep things equal here.
Also, it's a funny coincidence just how many of those "civilian deaths" reported by the UN (which the UN gets from... Hamas), happen to be young males. Hmmmm.....
Edna, you are a true Pit gem. Never stop.
LOL :lol: I mean seriously
Yeah because its not like the UN and other organizations don't independently verify the deaths and that results and a massive split between Hamas numbers and real numbers. JFC you have no clue.
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 11:21:57 PM
There's no school in Gaza, there are no more kids left". "Gaza is a cemetery".
much peaceful, so moderate
Post by: Kat Kid on July 30, 2014, 11:29:31 PM
Post by: ednksu on July 30, 2014, 11:33:35 PM
I'm not defending Hamas and I'm not defending edna posts. These are my pre-conditions.awesome :thumbsup:
Post by: felix rex on July 31, 2014, 12:33:58 AM
Post by: steve dave on July 31, 2014, 07:50:34 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 31, 2014, 10:00:22 AM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on July 31, 2014, 10:21:02 AM
If you sneer the wrong way at some guy, and he beats the crap out of you and puts you in the hospital, you shouldn't sneer at him again the next time you see him.
What if he kills your kids?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on July 31, 2014, 10:22:09 AM
If you sneer the wrong way at some guy, and he beats the crap out of you and puts you in the hospital, you shouldn't sneer at him again the next time you see him.
I would grab my judge and sneer my ground.
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 31, 2014, 10:33:51 AM
If you sneer the wrong way at some guy, and he beats the crap out of you and puts you in the hospital, you shouldn't sneer at him again the next time you see him.
What if he kills your kids?
Have more kids.
Post by: steve dave on July 31, 2014, 10:35:43 AM
Post by: michigancat on July 31, 2014, 10:39:25 AM
If you sneer the wrong way at some guy, and he beats the crap out of you and puts you in the hospital, you shouldn't sneer at him again the next time you see him.
disproportionate response! K-S-U! It was said again!
Post by: Cire on July 31, 2014, 10:45:52 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 31, 2014, 10:46:20 AM
Now in my example if I had sneered at some dude and he rushed me and I threw my toddler at him to protect myself and my toddler is killed and I think it's his fault then I'm an bad person.
Post by: michigancat on July 31, 2014, 10:54:44 AM
If you guys don't think we'd roll in and completely flatten ciuidad juarez if the cartels started launching rockets into el paso or whatever then I don't even know.
Why would the cartels do that?
Post by: Cire on July 31, 2014, 11:00:45 AM
Post by: _33 on July 31, 2014, 11:00:59 AM
Generally, do the Palestinian people dislike Hamas and desire more moderate representation, but have no means by which to change anything...or do they support Hamas as their representation?
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 31, 2014, 11:01:26 AM
If you guys don't think we'd roll in and completely flatten ciuidad juarez if the cartels started launching rockets into el paso or whatever then I don't even know.
Why would the cartels do that?
Because Americans were coming across the border and buying property and inflating values and contributing to the local economies?
Post by: steve dave on July 31, 2014, 11:02:43 AM
If you guys don't think we'd roll in and completely flatten ciuidad juarez if the cartels started launching rockets into el paso or whatever then I don't even know.
if there's one clear cut way to determine the morality or merit of a military campaign it's "what would the americans do in this situation?". that's for rough ridin' sure.
Post by: Cire on July 31, 2014, 11:19:25 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on July 31, 2014, 11:32:19 AM
If you guys don't think we'd roll in and completely flatten ciuidad juarez if the cartels started launching rockets into el paso or whatever then I don't even know.
Why would the cartels do that?
Because Americans were coming across the border and buying property and inflating values and contributing to the local economies?
I think the occupation as economic stimulus troll is by far the best troll of the entire thread.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on July 31, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on July 31, 2014, 11:59:33 AM
If you guys don't think we'd roll in and completely flatten ciuidad juarez if the cartels started launching rockets into el paso or whatever then I don't even know.
Why would the cartels do that?
Because Americans were coming across the border and buying property and inflating values and contributing to the local economies?
I think the occupation as economic stimulus troll is by far the best troll of the entire thread.
Jews patronize Arab businesses in Jerusalem all the time.
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Post by: ednksu on July 31, 2014, 03:17:18 PM
Serious Question that I don't know the answer to:couple of thoughts. Similarly to the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, Hamas became the only body to offer services to the general population. With Israel's seige on Gaza over the last few years they became more entrenched with more political and social authority to shift the population to a more extreme position. Because Israel refuses to have meaningful conversations with moderates in orgs like Fatah moderates, the only option becomes more radicalized. The population does have some ability to create moderate leadership, but they have no services to garner patronage and no one to interface with to work on solutions.
Generally, do the Palestinian people dislike Hamas and desire more moderate representation, but have no means by which to change anything...or do they support Hamas as their representation?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on July 31, 2014, 06:59:01 PM
Post by: michigancat on July 31, 2014, 07:00:25 PM
Don't fire rockets, don't tunnel, throw out Hamas, disavow all ties to the "Destruction of Israel" contingent. See what happens.
You keep saying Palestinians should "throw out Hamas", dax. How do they do that?
Post by: steve dave on July 31, 2014, 07:44:24 PM
Post by: catzacker on July 31, 2014, 08:35:18 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on July 31, 2014, 09:18:21 PM
Serious Question that I don't know the answer to:couple of thoughts. Similarly to the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, Hamas became the only body to offer services to the general population. With Israel's seige on Gaza over the last few years they became more entrenched with more political and social authority to shift the population to a more extreme position. Because Israel refuses to have meaningful conversations with moderates in orgs like Fatah moderates, the only option becomes more radicalized. The population does have some ability to create moderate leadership, but they have no services to garner patronage and no one to interface with to work on solutions.
Generally, do the Palestinian people dislike Hamas and desire more moderate representation, but have no means by which to change anything...or do they support Hamas as their representation?
Much like the Carr Bros. thread, per the libtards, the real victim here is the psychopathic criminal.
Post by: ednksu on July 31, 2014, 10:27:29 PM
Serious Question that I don't know the answer to:couple of thoughts. Similarly to the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, Hamas became the only body to offer services to the general population. With Israel's seige on Gaza over the last few years they became more entrenched with more political and social authority to shift the population to a more extreme position. Because Israel refuses to have meaningful conversations with moderates in orgs like Fatah moderates, the only option becomes more radicalized. The population does have some ability to create moderate leadership, but they have no services to garner patronage and no one to interface with to work on solutions.
Generally, do the Palestinian people dislike Hamas and desire more moderate representation, but have no means by which to change anything...or do they support Hamas as their representation?
Much like the Carr Bros. thread, per the libtards, the real victim here is the psychopathic criminal.
Maybe I should have tagged this [serious]? The problem and this post isn't blaming the vic, criminal, or whoever else. I'm merely calling the situation as I see it. The reality is that there are groups which have complex goals, strategies, and missions in place in the Mid East. If you don't know any better, and Hamas is the only group which will feed, employ, educate, and shelter you, who will you believe when politics come into play? That is a known reality, one which Hamas exploits well, and Israel gives no fucks about interacting with to come to a workable peace.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on August 01, 2014, 09:22:22 AM
Serious Question that I don't know the answer to:couple of thoughts. Similarly to the Muslim brotherhood in egypt, Hamas became the only body to offer services to the general population. With Israel's seige on Gaza over the last few years they became more entrenched with more political and social authority to shift the population to a more extreme position. Because Israel refuses to have meaningful conversations with moderates in orgs like Fatah moderates, the only option becomes more radicalized. The population does have some ability to create moderate leadership, but they have no services to garner patronage and no one to interface with to work on solutions.
Generally, do the Palestinian people dislike Hamas and desire more moderate representation, but have no means by which to change anything...or do they support Hamas as their representation?
Much like the Carr Bros. thread, per the libtards, the real victim here is the psychopathic criminal.
Maybe I should have tagged this [serious]? The problem and this post isn't blaming the vic, criminal, or whoever else. I'm merely calling the situation as I see it. The reality is that there are groups which have complex goals, strategies, and missions in place in the Mid East. If you don't know any better, and Hamas is the only group which will feed, employ, educate, and shelter you, who will you believe when politics come into play? That is a known reality, one which Hamas exploits well, and Israel gives no fucks about interacting with to come to a workable peace.
Ahhh, the old Obamacare conundrum.
Post by: mocat on August 01, 2014, 09:39:08 AM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on August 01, 2014, 09:42:36 AM
what does Hamas want?
Genocide of the Jews, Hitler style. So reasonable, I just can't understand why the Jews aren't willing to negotiate with these people.
Post by: mocat on August 01, 2014, 09:46:06 AM
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 01, 2014, 10:13:39 AM
do they though? i don't think they do.
It's only in their charter.
Post by: Cire on August 01, 2014, 10:14:11 AM
Post by: mocat on August 01, 2014, 10:19:57 AM
what would you do if you were trapped in a
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 01, 2014, 10:21:56 AM
Post by: michigancat on August 01, 2014, 10:30:06 AM
michigancat, i am revising my previous question to you at fattyfest, and this is how it goes now:
what would you do if you were trapped in aroomsynagogue with lsufreek andskinnybennyemo emaw?
emo's only an bad person sometimes
Post by: mocat on August 01, 2014, 10:36:30 AM
Hacidic?
spracne is that you? :love:
Post by: ednksu on August 01, 2014, 11:02:00 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28606099
Post by: _33 on August 01, 2014, 11:05:30 AM
Quote from: article 22 Hamas Charter
The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have
accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,
they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred
revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the
French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the
revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret
organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -
which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies
and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...
and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the
world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge
financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them
having their finger in it.
Looks like Hamas got most of its theories on Jews from Mein Kampf.
Post by: ednksu on August 01, 2014, 11:13:33 AM
or the radical neo-libertraian movement in the USQuote from: article 22 Hamas CharterThe enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have
accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,
they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred
revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the
French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the
revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret
organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -
which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies
and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...
and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the
world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge
financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them
having their finger in it.
Looks like Hamas got most of its theories on Jews from Mein Kampf.
Post by: _33 on August 01, 2014, 12:40:05 PM
Post by: steve dave on August 01, 2014, 12:41:29 PM
Post by: _33 on August 01, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on August 01, 2014, 12:48:23 PM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dvdizzy.com%2Fimages%2Fa-c%2Fcaddyshack-11.jpg&hash=82397c6ce01867a253b371309059bb095eca7861)
Post by: steve dave on August 01, 2014, 12:49:00 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 01, 2014, 02:42:53 PM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frack.2.mshcdn.com%2Fmedia%2FZgkyMDE0LzA1LzA4L2FlL01pY2hlbGxlT2JhLjc1NDBlLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTk1MHg1MzQjCmUJanBn%2F82c6c83e%2Fa64%2FMichelleObamaBringBackOurGirls.jpg&hash=097ce1d3629abf18db1417d67878521aed68343b)
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 01, 2014, 02:48:07 PM
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02993%2Fputin_2993191b.jpg&hash=5906923c32899a0e345191c8803a2196b990dc3a)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11004971/Russian-deputy-PM-mocks-Obama-by-tweeting-unmanly-photo-of-president.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11004971/Russian-deputy-PM-mocks-Obama-by-tweeting-unmanly-photo-of-president.html) :lol:
Gorbachev v. Reagan, Putin v. Obama... quite a contrast.
Post by: michigancat on August 01, 2014, 02:52:05 PM
Post by: Jackstack99EMAW on August 01, 2014, 03:29:47 PM
Post by: SdK on August 01, 2014, 04:03:13 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 01, 2014, 04:08:07 PM
Has Fox news lolled a bunch and called Obama a pussy yet over this?
Isn't the more relevant issue that Russia is LOL'ing and calling the American President a pussy? I might expect this from North Korea, but foreign leaders of more "respectable" countries are now openly mocking us. We did elect the weakling, twice.
Post by: star seed 7 on August 01, 2014, 04:32:06 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 01, 2014, 04:38:49 PM
Russia is respectable? I guess you do love their anti-gay and pro-war policies
No, we have been kicking Russia's ass at everything so hard we had to switch legs because our dominant ass kicking leg got tired. Anyone who thinks we aren't light years ahead of those drunken losers just wants to make whoever is running our country look bad.
Post by: star seed 7 on August 01, 2014, 04:43:11 PM
Post by: michigancat on August 01, 2014, 04:50:16 PM
Post by: steve dave on August 01, 2014, 06:33:47 PM
Post by: SdK on August 01, 2014, 08:12:33 PM
No, it is not.Has Fox news lolled a bunch and called Obama a pussy yet over this?
Isn't the more relevant issue that Russia is LOL'ing and calling the American President a pussy? I might expect this from North Korea, but foreign leaders of more "respectable" countries are now openly mocking us. We did elect the weakling, twice.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 01, 2014, 10:20:50 PM
Post by: steve dave on August 01, 2014, 10:24:29 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on August 01, 2014, 10:31:44 PM
#thanksobamaandhillary #onlywhenademocratispresident
Post by: felix rex on August 02, 2014, 12:41:09 AM
And speaking of hilarious twitter pictures, Russia's Deputy PM just tweeted this one out today (for real, not made up).
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02993%2Fputin_2993191b.jpg&hash=5906923c32899a0e345191c8803a2196b990dc3a)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11004971/Russian-deputy-PM-mocks-Obama-by-tweeting-unmanly-photo-of-president.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11004971/Russian-deputy-PM-mocks-Obama-by-tweeting-unmanly-photo-of-president.html) :lol:
Gorbachev v. Reagan, Putin v. Obama... quite a contrast.
Probably belongs in Putin Stud Master thread.
Post by: SdK on August 02, 2014, 02:12:18 AM
Ok, so "respectable" probably wasn't the right word. Did Russia just get a lot more brazen, or is Obama just a much more pathetic weakling? Probably some of both. So much for Hillary's "reset."
I like the fact that you think Russia gives more than 0 fucks about who is president in the U.S.
Also sad that you give a crap about what Putin thinks of our president.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2014, 04:07:20 PM
Ok, so "respectable" probably wasn't the right word. Did Russia just get a lot more brazen, or is Obama just a much more pathetic weakling? Probably some of both. So much for Hillary's "reset."
I like the fact that you think Russia gives more than 0 fucks about who is president in the U.S.
Also sad that you give a crap about what Putin thinks of our president.
You're pretty naive to believe Russia doesn't care who the President is. And yes it is a little upsetting that our enemies have so little respect for us, but that's just cause, you know, I love America.
Post by: star seed 7 on August 02, 2014, 04:58:40 PM
#onlywhenademocratispresident
Post by: Unruly on August 02, 2014, 05:17:31 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2014, 05:19:03 PM
I bet ksu was one of those "who cares what other countries think of us!" people when the entire world hated us and was making fun of bush2
#onlywhenademocratispresident
I expect our enemies to hate us - that means we're doing it right - it's the mockery that's tough to stomach, but the real problem is that our current weakling is just so mockable.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/1505426_10152303001831733_3382260418459602046_n.jpg)
Calling bs on this, even for Palestinians. The guys not masked for starters.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 02, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
Post by: 8manpick on August 02, 2014, 06:10:44 PM
Obama could mock Putin for being a bald runt, but he doesn't.Cause Obummer is a huge puss
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 02, 2014, 06:13:40 PM
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2014, 07:18:37 PM
Post by: steve dave on August 02, 2014, 07:20:22 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 02, 2014, 07:44:38 PM
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2014, 07:53:32 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33)
That's our weakling, commanding respect from allies and enemies alike.
Post by: Tobias on August 02, 2014, 08:15:37 PM
Post by: kim carnes on August 02, 2014, 08:25:32 PM
Really funny the lengths some will go to excuse our weakling's weakness and lack of respect. Speaking of which, Netanyahu reportedly told Obama today, "[Hey dumbshit], don't ever second guess me again."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33)
That's our weakling, commanding respect from allies and enemies alike.
What do his words have to do with commanding respect?
Post by: CNS on August 02, 2014, 08:30:05 PM
Post by: michigancat on August 02, 2014, 08:48:22 PM
Really funny the lengths some will go to excuse our weakling's weakness and lack of respect. Speaking of which, Netanyahu reportedly told Obama today, "[Hey dumbshit], don't ever second guess me again."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33)
That's our weakling, commanding respect from allies and enemies alike.
What do his words have to do with commanding respect?
International leaders always call leaders they don't respect and ask them to stop making me look like a bad guy
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 02, 2014, 09:21:31 PM
Really funny the lengths some will go to excuse our weakling's weakness and lack of respect. Speaking of which, Netanyahu reportedly told Obama today, "[Hey dumbshit], don't ever second guess me again."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33)
That's our weakling, commanding respect from allies and enemies alike.
What do his words have to do with commanding respect?
International leaders always call leaders they don't respect and ask them to stop making me look like a bad guy
Hmmm, seems like something I'd tell a subordinate after they disregarded my instructions and mumped something up - not something I'd say to "the most powerful man in the world", "leader of the free world", etc.
Post by: michigancat on August 02, 2014, 09:23:29 PM
Post by: ednksu on August 03, 2014, 11:07:24 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 03, 2014, 02:04:11 PM
I saw McCain on the picture box this morning, and he actually made one good point. The U.S. should be flooring it on taking over as Natural Gas supplier to Europe.
Post by: CNS on August 03, 2014, 02:15:00 PM
I think Russia is making themselves look bad all by themselves.
I saw McCain on the picture box this morning, and he actually made one good point. The U.S. should be flooring it on taking over as Natural Gas supplier to Europe.
Yep.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on August 03, 2014, 06:03:32 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on August 04, 2014, 11:08:46 AM
Really funny the lengths some will go to excuse our weakling's weakness and lack of respect. Speaking of which, Netanyahu reportedly told Obama today, "[Hey dumbshit], don't ever second guess me again."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33 (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33)
That's our weakling, commanding respect from allies and enemies alike.
What do his words have to do with commanding respect?
International leaders always call leaders they don't respect and ask them to stop making me look like a bad guy
Hmmm, seems like something I'd tell a subordinate after they disregarded my instructions and mumped something up - not something I'd say to "the most powerful man in the world", "leader of the free world", etc.
You are correct. The only course of action for Obama to take now is to just cut all support to Israel. Teach them that they are our subordinates and should do as they are told. Obama is probably too big of a pussy to do it, though.
Post by: felix rex on August 04, 2014, 11:39:51 AM
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701
Post by: michigancat on August 04, 2014, 11:51:10 AM
"You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it."
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701
A little to "ISIS is worse" for my taste, but overall I enjoyed that.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 04, 2014, 01:05:52 PM
"You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it."
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701
A little to "ISIS is worse" for my taste, but overall I enjoyed that.
Kind of a good point, though, about the outrage and condemnation being so much worse against Israel as opposed to Syria or other countries slaughtering 100s of thousands more people. Had not considered that.
Post by: michigancat on August 04, 2014, 01:43:51 PM
"You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it."
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701
A little to "ISIS is worse" for my taste, but overall I enjoyed that.
Kind of a good point, though, about the outrage and condemnation being so much worse against Israel as opposed to Syria or other countries slaughtering 100s of thousands more people. Had not considered that.
Yeah, I think the big difference is the US doesn't give ISIS $3 billion a year. I imagine you'd see similar "outrage" if we were.
Also, no one is arguing that ISIS is handling things correctly, at least as far as I can tell.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on August 04, 2014, 03:08:23 PM
If only W could have served a 3rd and 4th term.
Post by: SdK on August 04, 2014, 03:14:47 PM
I don't understand why the libtards are making light of the US's current foreign policy [or lack thereof] debacles. Our enemies are emboldened and conquering territory (ME, Russia) and our allies think we're ignorant boobs (Israel, Germany). Hell, we can't even handle thousands of children congregating on our Southern border. This is the result of a sad sack POTUS, two nitwit SoS and a CIA whose leash is a couple thousand miles too long.
If only W could have served a 3rd and 4th term.
Everybody wanna be a fly til you swat'em
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on August 04, 2014, 04:30:33 PM
"You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it."
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701
A little to "ISIS is worse" for my taste, but overall I enjoyed that.
Kind of a good point, though, about the outrage and condemnation being so much worse against Israel as opposed to Syria or other countries slaughtering 100s of thousands more people. Had not considered that.
Yeah, I think the big difference is the US doesn't give ISIS $3 billion a year. I imagine you'd see similar "outrage" if we were.
:lol: Do you actually believe that? It's the American foreign aid to Israel that's causing the outrage? Strangely, the US provides aid to the palestinians, too, and yet where's the outrage when Hamas fires rockets into Israel? That's odd... It's almost as if there's some other reason by the Muslim world is outraged by the Israeli killing of a few hundred "civilians", but not the 100-fold slaughter by other regimes. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Post by: michigancat on August 04, 2014, 04:36:58 PM
"You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it."
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701
A little to "ISIS is worse" for my taste, but overall I enjoyed that.
Kind of a good point, though, about the outrage and condemnation being so much worse against Israel as opposed to Syria or other countries slaughtering 100s of thousands more people. Had not considered that.
Yeah, I think the big difference is the US doesn't give ISIS $3 billion a year. I imagine you'd see similar "outrage" if we were.
:lol: Do you actually believe that? It's the American foreign aid to Israel that's causing the outrage? Strangely, the US provides aid to the palestinians, too, and yet where's the outrage when Hamas fires rockets into Israel? That's odd... It's almost as if there's some other reason by the Muslim world is outraged by the Israeli killing of a few hundred "civilians", but not the 100-fold slaughter by other regimes. I can't quite put my finger on it.
Yes, I believe that's a major reason people spend more time questioning Israel's actions rather than those of ISIS. You failed to quote another big reason I mentioned.
And I think there's plenty of outrage towards Hamas, even though we aren't buying them rockets.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 05, 2014, 09:32:40 PM
Not doing a whole lot about ISIS-Check
Overthrow a relatively stable anti-Al Qaeda regime and replace it with hardcore Islamic gangs-Check
Support Radical Isalmic militants in Syria-Check
Kissin cheeks and shakin hands with the Muslim Brotherhoold in Egypt (until they got tossed)-Check
I'd almost think this was all planned.
Post by: DQ12 on August 05, 2014, 09:35:28 PM
Post by: Spracne on August 05, 2014, 09:38:59 PM
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on August 05, 2014, 10:01:58 PM
I don't understand why the libtards are making light of the US's current foreign policy [or lack thereof] debacles. Our enemies are emboldened and conquering territory (ME, Russia) and our allies think we're ignorant boobs (Israel, Germany). Hell, we can't even handle thousands of children congregating on our Southern border. This is the result of a sad sack POTUS, two nitwit SoS and a CIA whose leash is a couple thousand miles too long.
If only W could have served a 3rd and 4th term.
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on August 05, 2014, 10:36:36 PM
Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Post by: EllRobersonisInnocent on August 05, 2014, 10:51:43 PM
Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Yea, so?
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on August 05, 2014, 11:03:14 PM
Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Yea, so?
Thank you, HitlerisInnocent.
Post by: michigancat on August 05, 2014, 11:23:11 PM
Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Israel's affluent enough now that they'd probably be in decent shape, and they got by with relatively little military aid from the US early in their history.
The real reason we probably won't stop it any time soon because most of the aid has to come back to US companies and we like the Israelis trying out our new toys and tactics on the palistineans.
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 06, 2014, 09:00:45 AM
Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Israel's affluent enough now that they'd probably be in decent shape, and they got by with relatively little military aid from the US early in their history.
The real reason we probably won't stop it any time soon because most of the aid has to come back to US companies and we like the Israelis trying out our new toys and tactics on the palistineans.
They also develop a fair amount of military technology for our consumption.
Post by: michigancat on August 06, 2014, 10:22:12 AM
Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Israel's affluent enough now that they'd probably be in decent shape, and they got by with relatively little military aid from the US early in their history.
The real reason we probably won't stop it any time soon because most of the aid has to come back to US companies and we like the Israelis trying out our new toys and tactics on the palistineans.
They also develop a fair amount of military technology for our consumption.
yeah, but that's less of a reason for us to continue giving them money.
Post by: felix rex on August 06, 2014, 11:48:06 PM
Post by: 8manpick on August 07, 2014, 08:09:55 AM
I mean, not thinking that the Jewish people should have their own state in the Middle East carved out and propped up by the Western Powers is in no way the same as advocating for their genocide.Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Yea, so?
Thank you, HitlerisInnocent.
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 07, 2014, 11:47:12 AM
I mean, not thinking that the Jewish people should have their own state in the Middle East carved out and propped up by the Western Powers is in no way the same as advocating for their genocide.Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Yea, so?
Thank you, HitlerisInnocent.
I like how you shaved off the ends of your mustache but left the middle. :thumbs:
Post by: 8manpick on August 07, 2014, 11:50:41 AM
:dubious:I mean, not thinking that the Jewish people should have their own state in the Middle East carved out and propped up by the Western Powers is in no way the same as advocating for their genocide.Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Yea, so?
Thank you, HitlerisInnocent.
I like how you shaved off the ends of your mustache but left the middle. :thumbs:
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 07, 2014, 11:52:30 AM
:dubious:I mean, not thinking that the Jewish people should have their own state in the Middle East carved out and propped up by the Western Powers is in no way the same as advocating for their genocide.Mark me in the camp that is upset we give billions of dollars in military aid to Israel.
There probably wouldn't be an Israel without it.
Yea, so?
Thank you, HitlerisInnocent.
I like how you shaved off the ends of your mustache but left the middle. :thumbs:
I'm just teasing. :D :cheers:
Oh hey, like what you've done with the showers. :thumbs:
( :D :D)
Post by: SdK on August 10, 2014, 06:20:30 PM
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on August 19, 2014, 04:04:56 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4560337,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4560337,00.html)
Heavy barrage of rockets fired at Tel Aviv area, southern Israel
Hamas says it fired 40 rockets, claims responsibility for firing M-75 and Fajr-5 rockets at central Israel, J-80 missile at Ben Gurion Airport.
Post by: Kat Kid on August 26, 2014, 06:33:54 PM
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612637 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612637)
Quote
Without a formal discussion, without a vote, in laconic telephone updates with members of the security cabinet – that is how the government of Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu in August 2014 approved a cease-fire agreement with a terror organization. The same Benjamin Netanyahu who ran for election five years ago, after Operation Cast Lead, on the platform that the mission had not been accomplished, that Hamas rule had to be destroyed and that he was the only one who could do it.
Netanyahu's conduct during the 50 days of fighting in Gaza highlighted the gap between his statements and promises and the reality. The prime minister, who was the most strident in his statement against Hamas, ended the confrontation with the organization in the weakest position. All he wanted was to achieve a cease-fire at just about any price. When the opportunity came, he simply grabbed it and ran.
The Egyptian cease-fire proposal that Israel accepted on Tuesday did not deliver a single achievement. The only thing that the prime minister's spokesmen could boast about on Tuesday was the denial of achievements to Hamas, such as the dissolution of its demands for a sea port, an airport and salary payments. But all those demands will be raised during the negotiations with Hamas that will resume in Cairo next week.
In return for unlimited quiet, Israel agreed to immediately open the border crossings with Gaza to humanitarian aid and to extend the fishing zone to a distance of six nautical miles. Israel also agreed to the immediate entry of construction materials for the rebuilding of Gaza, without any guarantee from either Egypt or Hamas for the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to ensure that the cement and concrete is not used for the rehabilitation of the tunnels project.
The Egyptian proposal didn't include any statement, not even a hint, regarding Israel's security demands. There was nothing about the demilitarization of the strip, the re-arming or the issue of the tunnels. When reading the thin Egyptian document to which Benjamin Netanyahu agreed, John Kerry's draft – which was rejected by the cabinet with a disdain that bordered on humiliation of the secretary of state – suddenly looks like the proposal of the year.
Post by: michigancat on August 26, 2014, 06:55:39 PM
Is anyone else confused about what exactly was accomplished by all of this from either side's perspective?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612637 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.612637)QuoteWithout a formal discussion, without a vote, in laconic telephone updates with members of the security cabinet – that is how the government of Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu in August 2014 approved a cease-fire agreement with a terror organization. The same Benjamin Netanyahu who ran for election five years ago, after Operation Cast Lead, on the platform that the mission had not been accomplished, that Hamas rule had to be destroyed and that he was the only one who could do it.
Netanyahu's conduct during the 50 days of fighting in Gaza highlighted the gap between his statements and promises and the reality. The prime minister, who was the most strident in his statement against Hamas, ended the confrontation with the organization in the weakest position. All he wanted was to achieve a cease-fire at just about any price. When the opportunity came, he simply grabbed it and ran.
The Egyptian cease-fire proposal that Israel accepted on Tuesday did not deliver a single achievement. The only thing that the prime minister's spokesmen could boast about on Tuesday was the denial of achievements to Hamas, such as the dissolution of its demands for a sea port, an airport and salary payments. But all those demands will be raised during the negotiations with Hamas that will resume in Cairo next week.
In return for unlimited quiet, Israel agreed to immediately open the border crossings with Gaza to humanitarian aid and to extend the fishing zone to a distance of six nautical miles. Israel also agreed to the immediate entry of construction materials for the rebuilding of Gaza, without any guarantee from either Egypt or Hamas for the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to ensure that the cement and concrete is not used for the rehabilitation of the tunnels project.
The Egyptian proposal didn't include any statement, not even a hint, regarding Israel's security demands. There was nothing about the demilitarization of the strip, the re-arming or the issue of the tunnels. When reading the thin Egyptian document to which Benjamin Netanyahu agreed, John Kerry's draft – which was rejected by the cabinet with a disdain that bordered on humiliation of the secretary of state – suddenly looks like the proposal of the year.
I think more people question Israel's motives than previously.
Post by: Emo EMAW on August 26, 2014, 07:06:56 PM
Sent using Tapatalk Elite on iPhone 6
Post by: ednksu on August 26, 2014, 07:22:10 PM
Post by: michigancat on August 29, 2014, 02:24:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv8oclY7h0Q
Post by: john "teach me how to" dougie on August 29, 2014, 04:11:07 PM
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on August 29, 2014, 04:12:28 PM
It does look like the same girl. :surprised:
I don't think it is.
Post by: michigancat on August 29, 2014, 04:20:31 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on September 01, 2014, 10:30:02 PM
Quote
82% of white evangelicals think Israel was given to the Jewish people by God compared to 40% of Jews. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/#utm_content=bufferff131&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/#utm_content=bufferff131&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)
Post by: Cire on September 02, 2014, 06:15:37 AM
Post by: felix rex on September 02, 2014, 07:42:26 AM
Quote82% of white evangelicals think Israel was given to the Jewish people by God compared to 40% of Jews. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/#utm_content=bufferff131&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/#utm_content=bufferff131&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)
That's interesting, but a little misleading. "White evangelical Protestant" is a much narrower demographic than "Jew" (or even the broadened "deist Jew").
"Net Jewish" at 40% versus "US general public" at 44% probably provides a more accurate big picture (especially given the 28/11 difference in atheism)
I think the 82/38 difference between W/E/P and Catholic is more interesting.
Post by: michigancat on September 02, 2014, 08:31:14 AM
Post by: michigancat on September 11, 2014, 05:58:57 PM
Never understood what the Palestinians beef with Israel is.
This should sum it up...
http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8 (http://youtu.be/8EDW88CBo-8)
here's another great summary
http://www.clickhole.com/article/conflict-gaza-explained-one-long-noise-978
Post by: Kat Kid on March 14, 2015, 07:50:46 AM
This article does an excellent job of explaining the failed strategic thinking of Netanyahu and the Israeli right wing. They have painted themselves in to such a corner that now Palestinians openly root for them to win their elections because it increases their own leverage. The settlements continuously make a two-state solution less and less viable. Rejecting a two-state solution as Netanyahu and Likud statements suggest is the new vision, leaves few options for a Jewish, democratic state.
Apartheid, ethnic cleansing or the death of Zionism seem more likely than ever. Netanyahu looks less than a sure thing in the elections and the Israeli parliament is as fractured as ever, so the coalition will likely be unable to address this looming disaster.
Post by: star seed 7 on March 14, 2015, 10:18:34 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 14, 2015, 10:29:39 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on March 14, 2015, 10:32:17 AM
Post by: michigancat on March 14, 2015, 10:36:16 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on March 14, 2015, 10:50:14 AM
It was just the first time I'd heard it really discussed. I would think Palestinians completely wiping them out would be worse but I can see why they wouldn't like a "rainbow state"
Realistic nightmare. I mean Iran, Hamas, ISIS etc. are obviously far above it. But the end of a democratic, Jewish homeland is pretty bad.
Post by: michigancat on March 14, 2015, 11:26:44 AM
Can you question the wisdom of Zionism without being anti-Semitic? I mean, I would have welcomed the diaspora to the US with open arms 100 years ago. It just doesn't seem like the creation of modern Israel was a very good idea with the luxury of hindsight.
Post by: Kat Kid on March 16, 2015, 02:23:07 PM
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/16/8226413/netanyahu-palestinian-state (http://www.vox.com/2015/3/16/8226413/netanyahu-palestinian-state)
Quote
"I think that anyone who is going to establish a Palestinian state today and evacuate lands, is giving attack grounds to the radical Islam against the state of Israel," Netanyahu said (per the New York Times). "Anyone who ignores this is sticking his head in the sand. The left does this time and time again. We are realistic and understand."
According to the Times, Netanyahu left little room for confusion:
Asked if he meant that a Palestinian state would not be established if he were to continue as Israel's prime minister, Mr. Netanyahu replied: "Correct."
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on March 16, 2015, 07:11:15 PM
The 2% of Christians who don't believe in God at all would be an interesting group.
K-S-U puts Obama into that group.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on March 18, 2015, 09:10:54 AM
The 2% of Christians who don't believe in God at all would be an interesting group.
K-S-U puts Obama into that group.
I'm surprised that's such a controversial comment. The only church Obama attended with any regularity was Rev' Wright's BLT church in his district in Chicago, which he pretty plainly joined only for political expediency. Of course, no serious presidential candidate, or president, would admit to being an aetheist, but can you really look at Obama and tell me that "there's a man who believes in God"? He once slammed his opponents as "clinging to their religion." He's a typical far left liberal aetheist.
Post by: K-S-U-Wildcats! on March 18, 2015, 09:49:58 AM
Welp, back to the drawing board for Team Obama.
Apparently Netanyahu did better than expected with the Jewish demographic.
Post by: michigancat on March 18, 2015, 10:17:08 AM
I think being a Christian will stop being a requirement for victory in a national election in my lifetime. At least I pray it will.
Post by: Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on March 18, 2015, 08:48:55 PM
-libtards
Post by: Kat Kid on February 15, 2017, 12:33:26 PM
We will now be negotiating the best form of apartheid or ethnic cleansing with Jared Kushner as Trump's envoy to secure a deal.
"It might be a better deal than people in this room understand."
-Trump
Post by: catastrophe on February 15, 2017, 12:51:31 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 15, 2017, 01:32:41 PM
If you're not going the two-state solution route (which, I'm not convinced is really a long-term solution) then the U.S. should just stay out of it entirely.
I agree on some levels, but a two state solution only emboldens the entities that will attack Israel from it, and it only makes Israel protecting themselves even harder in light of the fact that Israel would be attacking a nation state in the process. Subsequently opening itself for the usual ridicule from the usual suspects on the world stage in the court of world opinion.
Post by: LickNeckey on February 15, 2017, 01:34:12 PM
p.s. no way Israel would accept those condition in the current conservative Israeli environment
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 15, 2017, 01:41:52 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on February 15, 2017, 04:14:12 PM
If you're not going the two-state solution route (which, I'm not convinced is really a long-term solution) then the U.S. should just stay out of it entirely.
I agree on some levels, but a two state solution only emboldens the entities that will attack Israel from it, and it only makes Israel protecting themselves even harder in light of the fact that Israel would be attacking a nation state in the process. Subsequently opening itself for the usual ridicule from the usual suspects on the world stage in the court of world opinion.
Israel is a nuclear power that has an incredible military advantage over their enemies. I think it would be bad if we said to Israel "welp, good luck!" but not because they would be seriously threatened. The problem would be the likelihood of a "strategic" nuclear strike.
Post by: ben ji on February 15, 2017, 05:01:55 PM
Just once I'd like a candidate who will stand up and mock other leaders. I guess it's business as usual in Washington
Post by: MakeItRain on May 11, 2021, 10:10:16 PM
Post by: cfbandyman on May 12, 2021, 02:52:54 PM
Israel is committing state terror against Palestinian civilians.
While obviously way more complicated than just waving a wand and declaring it so, it really makes me want to just determine a list of sites in Jerusalem all have access to that will become international free zone that no one lives in, and then split the rest.
That or just make the whole goddamn thing no ones, both sides are bad actors and really no one should get it IMO. If you live there declare which side you are on, vote in your sides elections so you know how the eff you will be taxed and under what laws or w/e, but if you cause trouble just get kicked out to your side. Let the UN police, I don't care, I hate talking about one city with too many claimants and bloodshed over far, far too long. All sides suck on it.
Post by: bucket on May 12, 2021, 04:31:02 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 12, 2021, 04:57:17 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 12, 2021, 05:50:59 PM
I watched the HBO doc on the Oslo Accords yesterday. It was pretty good. I didn't realize Bibi was the one to wreck that.
Bibi wrecked everything and he's spent 25 years spitting in the face of the American government and daring multiple presidents to do something about it.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 12, 2021, 06:04:11 PM
Israel is committing state terror against Palestinian civilians.
While obviously way more complicated than just waving a wand and declaring it so, it really makes me want to just determine a list of sites in Jerusalem all have access to that will become international free zone that no one lives in, and then split the rest.
That or just make the whole goddamn thing no ones, both sides are bad actors and really no one should get it IMO. If you live there declare which side you are on, vote in your sides elections so you know how the eff you will be taxed and under what laws or w/e, but if you cause trouble just get kicked out to your side. Let the UN police, I don't care, I hate talking about one city with too many claimants and bloodshed over far, far too long. All sides suck on it.
While I'll accept the argument, but won't co-op it, that the entirety of the conflict is more complicated than Israel committing state sponsored terrorism, what happened the last week isn't more complicated than that at all.
It was Israel who made the unprompted provocation to have the police attack Palestinians on the streets on Jerusalem during Ramadan then eject them from their established homes. Were they just supposed to take the behavior and hope everything would be okay? Then Palestine strikes back with missile attacks, which were largely futile against the Israel missile defense system. Then they retaliate against Palestinian citizens at 10x the force in which they were attacked.
Sometimes it's okay to call a spade a spade.
Post by: cfbandyman on May 13, 2021, 08:38:33 AM
Israel is committing state terror against Palestinian civilians.
While obviously way more complicated than just waving a wand and declaring it so, it really makes me want to just determine a list of sites in Jerusalem all have access to that will become international free zone that no one lives in, and then split the rest.
That or just make the whole goddamn thing no ones, both sides are bad actors and really no one should get it IMO. If you live there declare which side you are on, vote in your sides elections so you know how the eff you will be taxed and under what laws or w/e, but if you cause trouble just get kicked out to your side. Let the UN police, I don't care, I hate talking about one city with too many claimants and bloodshed over far, far too long. All sides suck on it.
While I'll accept the argument, but won't co-op it, that the entirety of the conflict is more complicated than Israel committing state sponsored terrorism, what happened the last week isn't more complicated than that at all.
It was Israel who made the unprompted provocation to have the police attack Palestinians on the streets on Jerusalem during Ramadan then eject them from their established homes. Were they just supposed to take the behavior and hope everything would be okay? Then Palestine strikes back with missile attacks, which were largely futile against the Israel missile defense system. Then they retaliate against Palestinian citizens at 10x the force in which they were attacked.
Sometimes it's okay to call a spade a spade.
Yes, state sponsored terror is clearly indicative of one side and not the other :/ Last week was pretty clear which side, but to call last week something unique isn't, just another milepost on a conflict that has gone on for too long. I wasn't trying to overly "both sides it" but you can sit there for literally years and come up with atrocity on atrocity both committed, both suck in that regards. At some point you gotta look at it and be like neither can be trusted with being able to peaceful about it and both should have to just give it all up.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 13, 2021, 12:26:08 PM
SMDH
Post by: LickNeckey on May 13, 2021, 12:28:50 PM
Not Cool Biden!!!
Needs to call the Kush in to settle this ASAP
Post by: MakeItRain on May 13, 2021, 06:26:28 PM
Israel is committing state terror against Palestinian civilians.
While obviously way more complicated than just waving a wand and declaring it so, it really makes me want to just determine a list of sites in Jerusalem all have access to that will become international free zone that no one lives in, and then split the rest.
That or just make the whole goddamn thing no ones, both sides are bad actors and really no one should get it IMO. If you live there declare which side you are on, vote in your sides elections so you know how the eff you will be taxed and under what laws or w/e, but if you cause trouble just get kicked out to your side. Let the UN police, I don't care, I hate talking about one city with too many claimants and bloodshed over far, far too long. All sides suck on it.
While I'll accept the argument, but won't co-op it, that the entirety of the conflict is more complicated than Israel committing state sponsored terrorism, what happened the last week isn't more complicated than that at all.
It was Israel who made the unprompted provocation to have the police attack Palestinians on the streets on Jerusalem during Ramadan then eject them from their established homes. Were they just supposed to take the behavior and hope everything would be okay? Then Palestine strikes back with missile attacks, which were largely futile against the Israel missile defense system. Then they retaliate against Palestinian citizens at 10x the force in which they were attacked.
Sometimes it's okay to call a spade a spade.
Yes, state sponsored terror is clearly indicative of one side and not the other :/ Last week was pretty clear which side, but to call last week something unique isn't, just another milepost on a conflict that has gone on for too long. I wasn't trying to overly "both sides it" but you can sit there for literally years and come up with atrocity on atrocity both committed, both suck in that regards. At some point you gotta look at it and be like neither can be trusted with being able to peaceful about it and both should have to just give it all up.
Israel now using their army to attack civilians.
Sure Hamas has definitely "started it" enough over the years, no doubt. Of course we can go back 70 some odd years to when the British and Americans choose to colonize land that was inhabited by a majority of Palestinians and decided to split it up then just leave when the people who lived there didn't want that.
Post by: sys on May 13, 2021, 06:37:57 PM
Of course we can go back 70 some odd years to when the British and Americans choose to colonize land that was inhabited by a majority of Palestinians and decided to split it up then just leave when the people who lived there didn't want that.
good grief.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 13, 2021, 08:50:01 PM
Post by: mocat on May 13, 2021, 09:04:28 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 13, 2021, 09:36:48 PM
During WWI, the British promised to give Palestine to both the Jews and the Arabs, in completely contradictory agreements
Correct. The Arabs were the majority, Jews the minority group. The brits decided to make them split the land, jews continued to flow in, escaping the Nazi's, the brits then decided to dip out when the jews, backed by Americans decided to create Israel in 1948 and we've unevenly backed Jewish Israel since.
Not sure what about that offended sys's sensibilities.
Post by: sys on May 13, 2021, 09:37:44 PM
Life changing opinion sys, thank you for showing me the flaw in my opinion.
you can go read the history of how israel came to be. there's no point in me regurgitating it here for you.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 13, 2021, 09:40:09 PM
Life changing opinion sys, thank you for showing me the flaw in my opinion.
you can go read the history of how israel came to be. there's no point in me regurgitating it here for you.
I've posted it twice now, what's your objection
Post by: sys on May 13, 2021, 09:41:27 PM
Not sure what about that offended sys's sensibilities.
the creation of israel was a century long effort by zionist jews. it was not the result of the brits or americans just randomly mandating a country into being post ww2.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 13, 2021, 09:46:07 PM
This admin told Israel to evict Palestinians from old Jerusalem?
Not Cool Biden!!!
Needs to call the Kush in to settle this ASAP
As usual, you make absolutely no sense.
Every movement of the Biden administration to date has emboldened Iran and by proxy Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad.
It's literal historical Neocons ensuring they would do everything they could to kick the hornets nest. An open attack on the Abraham Accords would have been politically unpalatable. So light the wick and then force the Abraham Accord signatories to make a choice.
Just MPOS one and all.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 13, 2021, 09:46:37 PM
Not sure what about that offended sys's sensibilities.
the creation of israel was a century long effort by zionist jews. it was not the result of the brits or americans just randomly mandating a country into being post ww2.
I absolutely never said random, in fact I think it was quite intentional and intentionally done without the consideration of the majority of the people who lived there.
Post by: CNS on May 14, 2021, 11:52:55 AM
Post by: Cire on May 14, 2021, 11:58:26 AM
Post by: LickNeckey on May 14, 2021, 12:36:47 PM
I fail to see how Biden's policies have inflamed anything.
The situation will continue to devolve in fits and starts as long as Israel pursues illegal settlement of Palestinian lands.
Israel has no interest in accepting a two state solution so sporatic conflict will continue as Israel seeks to formalize total control of Palestinian territories.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 14, 2021, 12:52:16 PM
It is my understanding that this current rift centers around the illegal act of evicting palestinians from old jerusalem.
I fail to see how Biden's policies have inflamed anything.
The situation will continue to devolve in fits and starts as long as Israel pursues illegal settlement of Palestinian lands.
Israel has no interest in accepting a two state solution so sporatic conflict will continue as Israel seeks to formalize total control of Palestinian territories.
You fail to see it because you are looking at a singular act, while completely missing the big picture policy that's been implemented to date by this administration. The re-approachment with Iran, the probability of more tarmac cash in Tehran, and the various other things that this administration has done: The Lifting the terrorist tag off the Houti's in Yemen, the re-establishment of aid to the Palestinian Authority of which a chunk will most certainly trickle down to the hands of Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. The Biden Administration is now clearly saying that for now, they can do whatever they want and the U.S. will still supply them economic aid.
Post by: LickNeckey on May 14, 2021, 02:10:03 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 14, 2021, 02:28:15 PM
so you are saying that Palestinians feel emboldened to repond to Israeli aggressions because of the Biden admin?
It's almost like you live in some sort of information vacuum.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 14, 2021, 02:47:50 PM
Pretty sure the Arabs attacked Israel and Israel lost territory but cemented their independence. Then used American weapons and intelligence to completely whip ass in 1967 and haven't looked back since then.
Yes, the Arabs fought the creation of Israel on what was land that they previously occupied.
Post by: MadCat on May 14, 2021, 03:56:28 PM
Post by: wetwillie on May 14, 2021, 06:20:10 PM
Pretty sure the Arabs attacked Israel and Israel lost territory but cemented their independence. Then used American weapons and intelligence to completely whip ass in 1967 and haven't looked back since then.
Yea they have been whipping ass nonstop for 50 years
Yes, the Arabs fought the creation of Israel on what was land that they previously occupied.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 18, 2021, 12:27:58 AM
Post by: MakeItRain on May 18, 2021, 12:33:47 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on May 18, 2021, 09:15:37 AM
Major platforms of both lie in the total and absolute rejection of all overtures of peace and peaceful co-existence.
Post by: MakeItRain on May 18, 2021, 07:12:27 PM
Post by: steve dave on August 07, 2022, 11:28:00 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 07, 2022, 11:48:54 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on August 07, 2022, 12:34:48 PM
Unlike SteveDave and the rest of #blueanonGe, I will accept the content of these Tweets as likely being valid, and not #deflectobot based on source pearl clutching.How would Israel not know if they bombed a place?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on August 07, 2022, 12:53:48 PM
Unlike SteveDave and the rest of #blueanonGe, I will accept the content of these Tweets as likely being valid, and not #deflectobot based on source pearl clutching.How would Israel not know if they bombed a place?
That wasn't really the point.
That said, Israel alleges that multiple rockets landed right back on Gaza killing civilians.
Post by: Kat Kid on April 14, 2023, 02:48:09 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 09, 2023, 08:43:39 AM
Opinion Israeli-Palestinian conflict
A bitter blame game will follow Israel’s wartime unity
The inquest into what went wrong ahead of Hamas’s attack could lead down a dangerous path
GIDEON RACHMAN
Gideon Rachman YESTERDAY
Wars unite nations. The shock and horror of the Hamas attacks on Israel have brought a deeply divided country together. It is possible that Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, may now form a national unity government.
Israeli unity will last a while because this crisis is very far from over. The fate of the hostages inside Gaza, including children and old people, will continue to torment Israel. The government also faces the risk of new fronts opening in the occupied West Bank or on the border with Lebanon. But, fairly soon, Israel will be plunged into a divisive political argument about what went wrong. Two failures will have to be addressed. The first is an intelligence and security failure. The second is strategic.
Israel has long taken pride in its intelligence services. It was generally assumed that nothing much could happen in Gaza without Israel knowing about it. But Hamas was able to plan and execute a complex and multipronged attack and storm across a border that the Israelis thought was secure. In doing so, they carried out the most deadly attacks inside Israel since the foundation of the state in 1948.
Both the right and the centre are primed to blame each other for the intelligence and security failure. (The left barely exists anymore.) As prime minister, Netanyahu is the natural person to blame for what has happened.
The prime minister’s working assumption that the threat from Hamas was contained now looks delusional and complacent. As he struggles to avoid conviction in a corruption case, Netanyahu has also formed a government reliant on parties from the far-right. Those parties have supported increasing aggression by Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Army forces were diverted to the West Bank to contain the resulting violence — which weakened the country’s defences on the border with Gaza.
The Israeli right and far-right, however, have a counter-narrative ready. They are prepared to blame the opposition and intelligence establishment for weakening the security of the country.
In recent months, there have been huge anti-government demonstrations — protesting against judicial reforms pushed by Netanyahu that the opposition say threaten Israel’s democracy. Some senior figures from the security world have supported these demonstrations, and many Israeli reservists have been refusing to report for duty.
When the head of Shin Bet, the Israeli domestic intelligence service, warned Netanyahu earlier this year that deadly attacks by settlers on Palestinians would increase the security threat to Israel, he was roundly denounced by members of Netanyahu’s Likud party. One Likud member of parliament complained: “The ideology of the left has reached the top echelons of the Shin Bet. The deep state has infiltrated the leadership of the Shin Bet and the IDF.”
The far-right will certainly repeat those kinds of arguments in the coming weeks, as they press for vengeance against Hamas. But Israel’s inquest will have to go well beyond the immediate intelligence and security failure — profound though that is. Netanyahu’s entire strategy towards the Palestinians now looks like a failure.
This essentially involved containing and “shrinking” the conflict with the Palestinians — while providing security to Israeli citizens, building the economy and normalising relations with Arab states. Netanyahu believed that Israel could cope with occasional rocket attacks and live with international condemnation of Israel’s blockade of Gaza.
The Israeli leader rejected the argument that Israel would never be accepted in the Middle East until it made peace with the Palestinians. He argued instead that establishing normal relations with Israel’s Arab neighbours would help to bring internal peace — by cutting off external support for the Palestinians.
This plan was gathering momentum — with growing talk that Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the brink of establishing diplomatic relations. But that normalisation is now likely to be put on hold. While much western coverage of the crisis will focus on the horrors perpetrated by Hamas, the focus in the Middle East is likely to be on the suffering of Palestinians caught up in the Israeli strikes on Gaza. In that climate, it is likely to be impossible to conclude an Israel-Saudi deal.
However while Netanyahu’s Palestine strategy has fallen apart, it is far from clear what can replace it. In the current climate of grief and fury inside Israel, it is inevitable that the government will embrace a ferocious military response. But the Israeli government does not yet have any vision that goes beyond killing Hamas leaders.
Over the long term, it is hard to believe that Israel can any longer accept Hamas’s control of Gaza. But although there is plenty of talk of sending the Israeli army back into Gaza, that looks like a trap. As the academic Lawrence Freedman points out, the army “neither has the capacity nor the staying power to take control of Gaza. This remains a territory of 2 million people, and as they have nowhere else to go, they will stay, still angry.”
The shock and fury in Israel are reminiscent of the emotions in the US after 9/11. That provoked a display of American unity and power. It also led to a decade-long “war on terror” — which many Americans now regard as misconceived and self-destructive. Israel may be heading down the same dangerous path.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 09, 2023, 03:34:17 PM
Post by: catastrophe on October 09, 2023, 07:21:08 PM
The appetite for gaining and keeping power has become more important than doing what's best for the people who the government are tasked with protecting.
Well said. As always, I’m skeptical that selfish ambition has ever been less than it is now. That said, it could well be that social stigma has eroded enough that leaders no longer feel that they need to pretend to care about others.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 09, 2023, 09:47:03 PM
The appetite for gaining and keeping power has become more important than doing what's best for the people who the government are tasked with protecting.
Well said. As always, I’m skeptical that selfish ambition has ever been less than it is now. That said, it could well be that social stigma has eroded enough that leaders no longer feel that they need to pretend to care about others.
Yeah, you're right
Post by: Kat Kid on October 10, 2023, 09:55:29 AM
Quote
An Israeli military spokesman on Tuesday offered some advice to Palestinians seeking to flee his country’s bombardment of the Gaza Strip: “get out” through the “open” border with Egypt.
The problem is that the Rafah crossing in the south of the Palestinian enclave was closed, with news outlets reporting that it had been damaged after an Israeli air strike nearby.
The office of military spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Hecht later issued a clarification while the Israel Defense Forces said there had been “no official call by Israel for residents of the Gaza Strip to exit into Egypt”.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 10, 2023, 09:57:31 AM
Quote
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., a member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said in a series of posts on X, formerly known as Twitter, that "Israel has no choice but to seek the complete eradication of Hamas in Gaza."
"There simply is no diplomatic solution or ‘measured response’ available," Rubio wrote on X. "This tragically necessary effort will come at a horrifying price. But the price of failing to permanently eliminate this group of sadistic savages is even more horrifying."
Post by: Cire on October 10, 2023, 10:42:39 AM
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Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 11:20:59 AM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Post by: Pete on October 10, 2023, 12:16:18 PM
That’s pretty rough ridin' awful.Yikes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Post by: Pete on October 10, 2023, 12:19:19 PM
If we were 100% energy independent, wouldn’t this just be the same? Wouldn’t we just stay the eff out of it?
Post by: Cire on October 10, 2023, 12:40:23 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Yes,
regardless of how many non combatants die horrifically in this conflict it is all yikes
Post by: DQ12 on October 10, 2023, 12:46:31 PM
African and Asian nations/factions do this kinda crap to each other all the time and we just stay out of it, right?I don't think so. A lot of Zionist interests here in the states that just don't exist in sub-saharan conflicts (or asian conflicts, for example).
If we were 100% energy independent, wouldn’t this just be the same? Wouldn’t we just stay the eff out of it?
The oil interests in the middle east definitely play a part in our (the US's) interest in the conflict, but even outside of that, I think we'd still have a particular interest in it just because our old pal Israel is involved.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 10, 2023, 01:09:06 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 01:16:51 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 10, 2023, 01:31:54 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
The people killing civilians.
Post by: Spracne on October 10, 2023, 01:32:11 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
Let me help you out on this, as I have been trained in how to read good. The "not the good guys" are any, according to that poster.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 10, 2023, 01:48:26 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
Let me help you out on this, as I have been trained in how to read good. The "not the good guys" are any, according to that poster.
I have to admit, as someone who is also able to read good, I found that question to be a bit weird.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 01:51:14 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
Let me help you out on this, as I have been trained in how to read good. The "not the good guys" are any, according to that poster.
Thank you soooo much for stepping in and providing clarification on this. I should never second guess what I think anyone on this board might mean by that broad of a statement.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 01:53:33 PM
Yikes
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I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
The people killing civilians.
I want to thank you also for your answer. For a second I thought you might have thrown Israel as "not a good guy".
Post by: Spracne on October 10, 2023, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on October 10, 2023, 02:26:55 PM
Yikes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
The people killing civilians.
I want to thank you also for your answer. For a second I thought you might have thrown Israel as "not a good guy".
The Israeli government are most definitely not good guys and have spent generations killing and torturing civilians.
Rubio's quote would have been fine if he stopped at eliminating Hamas. He's clearly advocating for killing all Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of the end result was no more Hamas. That's literally genocide. Unfortunately, no one at all, of any consequence, will check Rubio on that comment. American politicians are falling all over themselves to one up each other in an over the top show of support of Israel. I'm sure another politician will go even farther than Rubio did
Post by: _33 on October 10, 2023, 02:34:38 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 02:42:16 PM
Yikes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm sure you had the same response when you saw or read about this right?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html)
Definitely not any good guys in this one.
Could you elaborate a little on this answer? Who exactly are not the good guys in this?
The people killing civilians.
I want to thank you also for your answer. For a second I thought you might have thrown Israel as "not a good guy".
The Israeli government are most definitely not good guys and have spent generations killing and torturing civilians.
Rubio's quote would have been fine if he stopped at eliminating Hamas. He's clearly advocating for killing all Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of the end result was no more Hamas. That's literally genocide. Unfortunately, no one at all, of any consequence, will check Rubio on that comment. American politicians are falling all over themselves to one up each other in an over the top show of support of Israel. I'm sure another politician will go even farther than Rubio did
So has the United States. What's your point?
Rubio's quote was a little over the top but they didn't leave Israel with many options? They are rough ridin' cowards and don't give one crap about life in general. Not even their own. Hamas has one goal and that is to eradicate the Jewish state. There is no bargaining with them.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 10, 2023, 02:47:08 PM
I'm curious what advice you all would give to Israel in this situation. What could they do to be 'the good guys'?
Stop bombing apartment complexes and mosques. Stop running an apartheid state.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 10, 2023, 03:10:32 PM
I'm curious what advice you all would give to Israel in this situation. What could they do to be 'the good guys'?
End the occupation for one. Stop building illegal settlements for another. Not cut off water, electricity and all means of escape (despite advising people to escape) to 2 million civilians while you are bombing them for another.
Plenty more but those would be a good start.
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on October 10, 2023, 03:36:22 PM
Quote
That I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter
https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20
Post by: _33 on October 10, 2023, 03:48:51 PM
I'm curious what advice you all would give to Israel in this situation. What could they do to be 'the good guys'?
End the occupation for one. Stop building illegal settlements for another. Not cut off water, electricity and all means of escape (despite advising people to escape) to 2 million civilians while you are bombing them for another.
Plenty more but those would be a good start.
I meant more - what would you do in response to the attacks? I guess the 2nd part kind of answers that.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 03:59:07 PM
On a happy note, Police Departments around our country have been put on high alert. You know, to protect those crazy Jews against the Palestines that think they have been wronged for so many years. Don't worry, I doubt any of these possible disturbances will be started by someone who crossed the border illegally. Whew!!
Post by: Spracne on October 10, 2023, 04:12:08 PM
I love that so many want to be humanitarians on here and it's not that I'm not a bleeding heart. The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel. Especially when it was so barbaric. Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews. Israel didn't start this. There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.
On a happy note, Police Departments around our country have been put on high alert. You know, to protect those crazy Jews against the Palestines that think they have been wronged for so many years. Don't worry, I doubt any of these possible disturbances will be started by someone who crossed the border illegally. Whew!!
Dafuq is wrong with you?
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 04:20:43 PM
I love that so many want to be humanitarians on here and it's not that I'm not a bleeding heart. The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel. Especially when it was so barbaric. Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews. Israel didn't start this. There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.
On a happy note, Police Departments around our country have been put on high alert. You know, to protect those crazy Jews against the Palestines that think they have been wronged for so many years. Don't worry, I doubt any of these possible disturbances will be started by someone who crossed the border illegally. Whew!!
Dafuq is wrong with you?
They decapitated babies heads? They abducted and raped women and children? It's a tad aggravating.
Post by: Spracne on October 10, 2023, 04:23:53 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 10, 2023, 04:44:18 PM
... that's not what is wrong with your post.
Oh the suspense!! Btw, I will have to go back and reread but has anyone said anything about the Americans that were killed? Or the ones that might be hostages now? Or the hostages in general?
Post by: wetwillie on October 10, 2023, 04:53:36 PM
Really hope this guy is wrong:QuoteThat I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter
https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20
What does the fourth front of its own Arab population mean?
Post by: MadCat on October 10, 2023, 04:56:51 PM
Really hope this guy is wrong:QuoteThat I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter
https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20
What does the fourth front of its own Arab population mean?
I'm guessing the Palestinian Arabs that live within the walls / borders of Israel.
Post by: wetwillie on October 10, 2023, 05:05:31 PM
Really hope this guy is wrong:QuoteThat I am afraid is where I fear we are - on the brink of a long planned existential conflict, where Israel will be attacked on all fronts and it only needs Israel to pull the trigger for it to begin. The savage murders of children and women was designed to force Israel’s hand. The terror enacted upon innocents had to be so explicit that Netanyahu - famously reluctant to enter Gaza - would have to do so. And Hamas will gather its citizens and people for their sacrifice for their and Iran’s ultimate goal the erasure of the state of Israel. Israel can win a one front war against Hamas. It can contain a two front war against Hezbollah. It might just endure a three front war in the West Bank. It may not survive a four front war with its domestic Arab population. Everything I fear is designed to bring about the latter
https://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/status/1711630404132773920?s=20
What does the fourth front of its own Arab population mean?
I'm guessing the Palestinian Arabs that live within the walls / borders of Israel.
It seems incredibly unlikely that someone/something could coordinate with 2 million Arab civilians living in Israel to do some kind of attack, or that they would even be willing to.
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 10, 2023, 06:02:48 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 10, 2023, 06:16:31 PM
As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.
Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.
Post by: wetwillie on October 10, 2023, 06:58:52 PM
I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.
As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.
Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.
Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords? My assumption is the military advantage of having more land buffer is too important to them.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 10, 2023, 08:09:17 PM
Same thing with the Golan (home to Trump Heights) Heights. I think it would be a bit more understandable if Israel acted in good faith in other areas, but when you are trying to shove every Palestinian out of East Jerusalem and are continuing to make the West Bank Swiss cheese, it rings a pretty hollow.I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.
As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.
Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.
Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords? My assumption is the military advantage of having more land buffer is too important to them.
Post by: wetwillie on October 10, 2023, 08:17:00 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 10, 2023, 08:44:16 PM
It is pretty mumped, but it feels like the continued settlements are more or less a poison pill to ensure they never cede back any of it.Right, which brings us back to “Peace or Apartheid” by Jimmy Carter which was received like a wet turd but has been proven quite prescient as even many staunch defenders of Israel like Tom Friedman now use “apartheid” to describe the situation in the West Bank.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/11/opinion/netanyahu-israel-judiciary.html
Post by: Pete on October 10, 2023, 09:57:03 PM
I think I am going to remain an independent voter on this one.
Post by: _33 on October 10, 2023, 11:03:07 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 11, 2023, 06:18:31 AM
If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.
Please elaborate
Post by: MakeItRain on October 11, 2023, 07:01:55 AM
If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.
What the hell are you going on about? This and your previous question seems to be vapid nonsense.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 11, 2023, 07:15:35 AM
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
Post by: Pete on October 11, 2023, 07:23:18 AM
If you don’t know which side you’re on in regards to Hammas/Israel you’ve lost your goddamn mind.Initially I felt the same way as you. I mean, how do you excuse the purposeful killing of civilians? However, as I educated myself about the impact of the policies of Israel over the decades, I learned that they cause very real suffering and death of Palestinian civilians….no merciful quick death, but rather lifelong suffering. How does someone who grew up in that NOT fight back? It would be very hard to turn the other cheek, wouldn’t it? They probably just don’t want to be tread on anymore.
I am grateful I don’t live there.
Anyway, I am neutral.
Post by: OK_Cat on October 11, 2023, 07:42:09 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MakeItRain on October 11, 2023, 07:42:45 AM
I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.
As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.
Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.
Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords?
Is it anything more than they didn't return area c because they didn't have to and no one will force them to do so? Like with Egypt, none of this is going to get normalized until Israel elects leaders who want work with the Palestinians and stop treating their citizens worse than dogs.
Post by: LickNeckey on October 11, 2023, 07:58:34 AM
I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.
As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.
Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.
Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords?
Is it anything more than they didn't return area c because they didn't have to and no one will force them to do so? Like with Egypt, none of this is going to get normalized until Israel elects leaders who want work with the Palestinians and stop treating their citizens worse than dogs.
The greater issue with "Area C" is the continued and deliberate expansion of illegal settlement within it.
This isn't an issue of just not returning the land as prescribed.
Post by: _33 on October 11, 2023, 09:09:36 AM
Post by: mocat on October 11, 2023, 09:22:35 AM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 11, 2023, 09:34:44 AM
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed? You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them? You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?
Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews. I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.
Has Israel done many things wrong? Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies. It's disgusting on so many levels. People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.
It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here? The double standards rear their ugly head once again.
I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board. And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't. Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.
Post by: DQ12 on October 11, 2023, 09:41:09 AM
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.Political speech (which pro-palestinian speech is, imo) is the most important speech to be protected, IYAM.
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 11, 2023, 09:48:05 AM
Post by: wetwillie on October 11, 2023, 09:48:33 AM
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed? You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them? You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?
Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews. I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.
Has Israel done many things wrong? Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies. It's disgusting on so many levels. People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.
It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here? The double standards rear their ugly head once again.
I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board. And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't. Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 11, 2023, 09:54:08 AM
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed? You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them? You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?
Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews. I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.
Has Israel done many things wrong? Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies. It's disgusting on so many levels. People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.
It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here? The double standards rear their ugly head once again.
I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board. And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't. Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
I don't disagree with you.
Post by: michigancat on October 11, 2023, 09:56:09 AM
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
Yeah, I think you can also want less brutality for Palestinians but not support the Hamas attacks.
Not all Palestinians are Hamas just like not all Jews are IDF. A lot of folks tend to frame it that way, or at least be ambiguous enough about it to cause hatred toward innocent people.
Post by: _33 on October 11, 2023, 10:05:36 AM
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed? You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them? You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?
Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews. I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.
Has Israel done many things wrong? Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies. It's disgusting on so many levels. People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.
It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here? The double standards rear their ugly head once again.
I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board. And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't. Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
I don't disagree with you.
Sure. It's also possible to be pro-Palestinian but adamantly take Israel's side against Hamas.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 11, 2023, 10:25:10 AM
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Post by: DQ12 on October 11, 2023, 10:32:05 AM
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.Yeah. You're right, of course. Unfortunately we (broadly speaking) just don't really react that way. Vengeance is a powerful force, especially when it's justified.
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
There are probably some examples in human history of a state/group being attacked like Israel just was and reacting soberly, but I can't think of any right now.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 11, 2023, 10:37:57 AM
I don’t pretend to speak for Hamas, but one really likely thing that they did is prevent Saudi Arabia from throwing them under the bus by normalizing relations with Israel with no pre conditions on Palestine. Looking at Qatar and Saudi Arabia’s statements they have rallied at least a bit of support in the gulf.
As far as why they would try something like this, I think you can look at the 17 year blockade that Gaza has been living under and the increasing violence and evictions in the West Bank. Speaking of the West Bank, it is not under Hamas’ leadership, has had pliant, cooperative, secular leadership and that has been rewarded with brutality, intransigence, and an increased pace of illegal settlements. So desperation is another reason.
Obviously the brutality of the action is shocking, but it is an inevitability that we will see thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine pay the price for this. Hamas did not care about their lives either. But it is worth taking a moment to consider the misery that this brutality came from. Because I unless we learn something we will be watching this all happen again.
Why do you think Israel stopped short of returning the entirety of Area C under the Oslo Accords?
Is it anything more than they didn't return area c because they didn't have to and no one will force them to do so? Like with Egypt, none of this is going to get normalized until Israel elects leaders who want work with the Palestinians and stop treating their citizens worse than dogs.
The greater issue with "Area C" is the continued and deliberate expansion of illegal settlement within it.
This isn't an issue of just not returning the land as prescribed.
That's fair
Post by: MakeItRain on October 11, 2023, 10:39:42 AM
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
Yeah, I think you can also want less brutality for Palestinians but not support the Hamas attacks.
Not all Palestinians are Hamas just like not all Jews are IDF. A lot of folks tend to frame it that way, or at least be ambiguous enough about it to cause hatred toward innocent people.
No, not a lot, as usual just a very loud minority of people who are either bad faith actors or ignorant as to what's going on.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 11, 2023, 10:41:18 AM
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Israel: Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again? I mean you got us good this time..
Hamas: Oh um, yeah. Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us. Done deal.
Israel: Great! Let's get this going.
Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace. I hope I'm incorrect. This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted. What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 11, 2023, 10:46:39 AM
It is worth remembering how Arafat and the PLO were portrayed as not being "partners for peace" and then Rabin got assassinated and Netanyahu rose to power and now his cabinet is filled with people who openly celebrated Rabin getting clipped. The US made a strategic error in promoting Islamist groups because we didn't like the secular/communist PLO and other pan-Arab groups collaboration with the USSR and now we are all living with the world that was made by Churchill, the Berlin conference, and western intelligence services.
I am as pessimistic as ever on peace and I don't even think people are even prepared for what would happen if this thing expands.
I hope it doesn't.
Opinion Israel-Hamas war
All involved in the Israel-Hamas conflict should heed the warnings of 1982
Every fresh attempt to wipe out Palestinian militant groups only forges more extreme iterations
KIM GHATTAS
The writer is author of ‘Black Wave’ and distinguished fellow at Columbia University’s Institute of Global Politics
The siege of Gaza has started and Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised “mighty vengeance”, vowing to “eliminate” Hamas after the horror its militants unleashed on Israel at the weekend. Hamas may be driven out from the impoverished Gaza Strip; Netanyahu claims his actions will “change the Middle East”.
There have been four wars between Israel and Hamas since the group violently took over the territory in 2007, each one ending with a return to the untenable status quo. But there are echoes of the summer of 1982, when then defence minister Ariel Sharon vowed to purge the Palestinian Liberation Organisation from southern Lebanon. He too wanted to change the Middle East.
With a nod and a wink from US secretary of state Alexander Haig, Sharon sent his troops all the way to Beirut, laying siege to the city for two months. Even though the PLO did end up leaving Lebanon, Israel’s first large-scale ground war against a non-state entity was one of its worst strategic blunders — and led to the massacre of Sabra and Shatila by Israel’s Lebanese Christian allies. We are still living with the consequences of Sharon’s hubris and Haig’s wink, including the birth of an axis of resistance from Damascus to Tehran.
Israel wanted not only to evict the PLO but also to help install a friendly government in Beirut with which to make peace, while bringing Syria to its knees, and perhaps to the table, by pummelling its armed forces in Lebanon. And all of this without making a single concession to the Palestinians. If Netanyahu thinks that this time he can bomb Gaza and then return to normalisation talks with the Saudis without offering anything substantive to the Palestinians, he would be gravely misreading Riyadh.
The lesson of the past four decades is also that every attempt to wipe out Palestinian armed groups has only produced more extreme iterations and worse conundrums. Two days after Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, a planeload of Iranian Revolutionary Guards arrived in Damascus and headed to Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley with Syrian president Hafez al-Assad’s blessing. Since Iran arrived in the Levant, it has never left. Hizbollah — Tehran’s most successful export since the 1979 Iranian revolution — was formed, and with Iran, vowed to evict America from Lebanon and the Middle East. In 1983, the US suffered a devastating blow when suicide trucks blew up first its embassy in Beirut and then the Marine contingent of a US-French multinational Force. President Ronald Reagan pulled out the Marines, briefly keeping US warships off the coast of Lebanon.
Syria bided its time while the Soviets replenished its arsenal, becoming the ultimate arsonist of American plans in the region while posing as a firefighter. Damascus fulfils a different role today as Iran, Hizbollah and Russia maintain a heavy presence on its soil.
With US citizens now among both the dead and the hostages from Hamas’s lightning attack, and a US carrier strike group on its way, America is now involved beyond simply being Israel’s ally — just as it was in Lebanon, minus the troops on the ground. Israel is seeking revenge, but the US should heed the wider warnings from 1982.
Back then, the Soviets were looking for ways to regain influence in the Middle East, where they had lost considerable ground after Egypt switched sides to become a US ally. The Soviet ambassador in Beirut, Alexander Soldatov, made clear that Moscow was opposed to any American success in the Middle East and worked to scupper the US-brokered deal between Lebanon and Israel. Soldatov also vowed to stop the US getting out of Lebanon safely while the Reagan administration was assisting the anti-Soviet Mujahedeen in Afghanistan.
There is no evidence that the Soviets had a hand in the devastating attack against the Marines in October 1983 but agendas aligned from Moscow to Tehran and Damascus. Similarly, there is no evidence that Russia provided any kind of support for the horror that unfolded in Israel on Saturday and Moscow maintains good ties with Tel Aviv — so far. But anti-American agendas still align, especially while Washington supports Ukraine and is pushing to normalise ties between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Iran has been supplying Moscow with drones. Hamas leaders have made several visits to Russia recently.
At its core, the current conflict is about the longest occupation in modern history, one that leaves the Palestinians dispossessed while Israel quests relentlessly for its security. But the bigger picture is one of regional shifts and global alliances reaching a critical juncture. The danger now is of more strategic blunders that will only perpetuate the violence for years to come.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 11, 2023, 10:47:11 AM
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
Yeah, I think you can also want less brutality for Palestinians but not support the Hamas attacks.
Not all Palestinians are Hamas just like not all Jews are IDF. A lot of folks tend to frame it that way, or at least be ambiguous enough about it to cause hatred toward innocent people.
No, not a lot, as usual just a very loud minority of people who are either bad faith actors or ignorant as to what's going on.
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:) Loud minority on this board? God forbid there is a different view of looking at things huh? And I'm incredibly envious of your great knowledge of what's going on currently. Would you be able to volunteer to start the peace process for us? Would be great for this board.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 11, 2023, 10:52:03 AM
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Israel: Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again? I mean you got us good this time..
Hamas: Oh um, yeah. Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us. Done deal.
Israel: Great! Let's get this going.
Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace. I hope I'm incorrect. This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted. What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?
I don't disagree.
Peace, if and when it ever happens, will be handled in the same way it has been done in many other examples---at a negotiating table.
I think everyone here would prefer the Good Friday Agreement, as opposed to the example of how things went for the indigenous people in the US and Australia.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 11, 2023, 10:53:39 AM
All Blinks and company do is threaten war or sanctions
Post by: Kat Kid on October 11, 2023, 11:01:04 AM
Not a lot of diplomats in this administration.
All Blinks and company do is threaten war or sanctions
I think Burns is probably the best of the bunch. Hopefully they send him.
Post by: CNS on October 11, 2023, 11:46:27 AM
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Israel: Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again? I mean you got us good this time..
Hamas: Oh um, yeah. Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us. Done deal.
Israel: Great! Let's get this going.
Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace. I hope I'm incorrect. This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted. What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?
I am not sure that a terrorist attack isn't what both sides(Hamas and Isreal) wanted.
Post by: wetwillie on October 11, 2023, 11:58:21 AM
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 11, 2023, 12:37:17 PM
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Israel: Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again? I mean you got us good this time..
Hamas: Oh um, yeah. Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us. Done deal.
Israel: Great! Let's get this going.
Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace. I hope I'm incorrect. This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted. What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?
I am not sure that a terrorist attack isn't what both sides(Hamas and Isreal) wanted.
Do you mean Palestine and Israel?
Post by: Rage Against the McKee on October 11, 2023, 12:59:03 PM
There sure is a very healthy and open debate out there with lots of people getting an open and fair hearing on the Hamas / Israel question. Everywhere you turn in the media there are Hamas spokespeople debating IDF spokespeople on round table discussions on the history of Israel / Palestine and the latest in this war.
In the real world, in the UK waving a Palestinian flag is a criminal offense.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/10/people-supporting-hamas-in-uk-will-be-held-to-account-says-rishi-sunak
Have not heard the free speech warriors on here talk about this one yet, but I eagerly await to see where this places them on the free speech continuum. Is “forced to say pronouns” to “we don’t want this right wing freak to give a talk at our school” worse than a possible 10 year jail sentence?
You must be happy that we live in a country where you can have a Congress person hang a Palestinian flag on her door in light of the atrocities that happened and innocent Americans being killed? You must be happy that we live in a country where Palestinians can have vile demonstrations mocking Jewish protests that might be right across the street from them? You must be happy that we have to go on high alert to protect Synagogues across our country when you think it would be the other way around?
Please continue to beat the drum of the oppressed Hamas, a terrorist group that's sole purpose is to annihilate the Jews. I can't get enough of the apartheid state they've created in your eyes.
Has Israel done many things wrong? Sure they have but it doesn't warrant a backlash when a terrorist group infiltrates their country and kills innocent women and children and babies. It's disgusting on so many levels. People on here continue to skim over the fact that Americans have been killed and could be being held hostage and are outraged that innocent Palestinians are going to be killed when hundreds of Jews have already been butchered.
It is something to behold that there is acceptance of Palestinians waving swastikas in the face of Jews and it gets nothing more than a mere shrug on here? The double standards rear their ugly head once again.
I will go ahead and double down on the anti-Semitism that seems to be happening on this board. And anyone who gets offended by this, please prove that I'm wrong by saying that you aren't. Please tell me that it's not ok to hate the Jewish people because of what they have done in the past and that they have some credence in protecting the country that was attacked by a terrorist organization.
It's possible to be pro-Semite and also recognize that Israel is behaving poorly in their handling of Gaza/Westbank.
I don't disagree with you.
Sure. It's also possible to be pro-Palestinian but adamantly take Israel's side against Hamas.
I'm not sure if that's the case. Can you be pro-Palestine and also pro-Palestinian women and children getting bombed to death in a zone that they can't leave?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 11, 2023, 01:36:57 PM
Opinion Israel-Hamas war
Biden, Netanyahu and America’s choice
The temptation is to offer Israel’s leader unconditional support but it would be wiser to try to break the cycle of violence
EDWARD LUCE
There is no contradiction between reviling terrorism and tackling its roots. Both the following statements are true: Hamas has plumbed new depths of bestial cruelty; Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel has starved non-violent Palestinian alternatives. Joe Biden movingly expressed his anger at the first on Tuesday. He has not publicly acknowledged the second. The world must hope — but cannot assume — that he also made it clear to Netanyahu that he will strongly oppose the collective punishment of Palestinians.
The danger to America in Israel’s response is acute. Besides the risk of a Middle East conflagration, the US will be blamed around the world for any excesses by the Israel Defense Forces. For years, Washington has turned a blind eye to Netanyahu’s serial breaking of the Oslo accords. New settlements in the occupied territories, expansion of old ones and the undercutting of the Palestinian Authority have humiliated moderate Palestinians and exposed Washington as a one-sided broker.
The last time America took a stab at two-state negotiations was in Barack Obama’s presidency. This was a halfhearted effort up to half a generation ago. When Netanyahu called Obama’s bluff he folded. Donald Trump played cheerleader to Netanyahu’s increasingly open contempt for the two-state process. Biden has acted as though the Palestinian problem no longer exists. Given his other geopolitical challenges, Biden’s wishful thinking may have been understandable. It has now come back to bite him. America can no longer afford to turn a blind eye.
Two things have changed since Obama’s failed attempt to revive peace talks. First, Netanyahu has alienated the large majority of Jewish Americans. The days when Israel could rely on automatic Jewish-American support have gone. For this, the Israeli prime minister is almost single-handedly responsible. In 2015 he broke all protocol when he opposed Obama’s signature Iran nuclear deal in a speech to Congress. Since most Jewish Americans are Democratic, and since the US right has increasingly flirted with antisemitic tropes, this was a reckless gamble. Supporting Netanyahu’s Israel became a Republican thing.
Second, Israel has the most hard-right government in the democratic world. Netanyahu has borrowed antisemitic imagery about George Soros from the likes of Trump and Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. His logic is that Jews can only be safe in Israel, which gives him a warped affinity for nativist groups across the west. To most non-Israeli Jews, and roughly half of Israel, Netanyahu’s ideological bedfellows are repugnant. Yet he is the most moderate member of the government he leads.
Netanyahu’s alliance with the Trumpian wing of US politics gives Biden more space than his predecessors to play the role of honest broker. Every pore in Biden’s body will resist doing that. For almost all of his political career, backing Israel has made bipartisan commonsense. Exactly half a century ago — just nine months after Biden became a US senator — Egypt invaded Israel in the Yom Kippur war. Like today, Israel was caught napping. Unlike today, Israel was the underdog. The safest space for an ambitious Democrat in the following years was to support Israel in all seasons. That is now a contentious position — and a particularly dangerous one for Biden.
Last weekend’s massacres were designed to provoke retaliatory Israeli atrocities in the Gaza Strip, which would validate Hamas’s Manichean worldview and its claim to be the chief legitimate voice of the Palestinian people. It would further undercut Fatah’s control of the occupied West Bank and fan extremism in Israel. Each of these knock-on effects would harm America’s standing and further undermine Israel’s security. The emotional temptation is to offer Netanyahu’s government unconditional support. It is hard to hear stories of slaughtered infants and not succumb to blind vengefulness. The rational position is to reject the playbook that Hamas wants.
Biden’s immediate priority will be to secure the release of American hostages. He has sent an aircraft carrier group to the region. But his overriding goal must be to break the cycle of escalating violence. Last Saturday’s killing was horrific, yet should come as no surprise. Gaza, as others have remarked, is the world’s largest open-air prison. Netanyahu has deprived Palestinians of hope for the future and peaceful outlets to express their frustrations. John F Kennedy, Biden’s original hero, said: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.” Israelis and Palestinians are on the brink of writing an even darker chapter in their history. Biden has the means to hijack that script. It is the most pro-Israeli thing he could do.
[email protected]
Post by: Spracne on October 11, 2023, 01:54:03 PM
Post by: wetwillie on October 11, 2023, 01:56:01 PM
Post by: CNS on October 11, 2023, 02:28:55 PM
I think just like there is a difference between waving a swastika and waving a Palestinian flag, there is a difference between hoping that Hamas is discredited by this and that peace and a two-state solution will be the outcome here, and looking at what is currently happening and is about to happen and thinking that the result will be the opposite. It isn't "fair" that Israel should pull its punches here and find a different way forward, but I look at the last two intifadas and everything that has happened on the ground and fail to see what will make this round any different other than probably just worse for both sides.
I'll ask again, how is bombing Gaza going to achieve anything besides revenge? "Mowing the lawn" isn't even pitched as a successful strategy on its own terms, just as something inevitable.
Israel: Ok Hamas, before we start peace negotiations again I want to make sure you keep to your word that nothing like this will ever happen again? I mean you got us good this time..
Hamas: Oh um, yeah. Just give us some more land, money and um quit being so mean to us. Done deal.
Israel: Great! Let's get this going.
Things have escalated to a point where I'm not sure much can be done to salvage peace. I hope I'm incorrect. This is what Hamas (and other factions) wanted. What would you propose that could possibly work especially after the terrorist attack that happened?
I am not sure that a terrorist attack isn't what both sides(Hamas and Isreal) wanted.
Do you mean Palestine and Israel?
No, I mean Hamas and Israel. Hamas has stated a bagillion times that they want to wipe Israel off the map. Israel has been elbowing and stretching into Palestine for years. A spark that would deem swift action, and unify a large group of people to emotionally support the action, would probably provide both Hamas and Israel the opportunity to go get what they want. I would imagine Hamas would love what opportunities Israel bombing Palestine would bring them, and I would imagine that Israel would love the opportunities that Hamas terror activities would bring them.
It seems like all parties have been pointing rockets, guns, and ppl at each other for quite some time now.
Post by: Cartierfor3 on October 11, 2023, 03:36:04 PM
No, I don't think Israel wanted to have a bunch of their people butchered. You're suggesting the Israeli people are so bloodthirsty they wanted to have this go down like that?
Post by: Pete on October 11, 2023, 04:00:29 PM
Post by: Spracne on October 11, 2023, 04:57:53 PM
I long for a day when we have energy independence and can wash our hands of this stuff. Just completely ignore countries driven by religion.
Aren't we already a net exporter of oil and the largest oil producer in the world?
Post by: passranch on October 11, 2023, 05:03:12 PM
I long for a day when we have energy independence and can wash our hands of this stuff. Just completely ignore countries driven by religion.
Aren't we already a net exporter of oil and the largest oil producer in the world?
And almost completely politically driven by religion.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 11, 2023, 05:41:25 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 11, 2023, 05:46:23 PM
Another great piece I find little to disagree with from FT op-ed page.....
Opinion Israel-Hamas war
Biden, Netanyahu and America’s choice
The temptation is to offer Israel’s leader unconditional support but it would be wiser to try to break the cycle of violence
EDWARD LUCE
There is no contradiction between reviling terrorism and tackling its roots. Both the following statements are true: Hamas has plumbed new depths of bestial cruelty; Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel has starved non-violent Palestinian alternatives. Joe Biden movingly expressed his anger at the first on Tuesday. He has not publicly acknowledged the second. The world must hope — but cannot assume — that he also made it clear to Netanyahu that he will strongly oppose the collective punishment of Palestinians.
The danger to America in Israel’s response is acute. Besides the risk of a Middle East conflagration, the US will be blamed around the world for any excesses by the Israel Defense Forces. For years, Washington has turned a blind eye to Netanyahu’s serial breaking of the Oslo accords. New settlements in the occupied territories, expansion of old ones and the undercutting of the Palestinian Authority have humiliated moderate Palestinians and exposed Washington as a one-sided broker.
The last time America took a stab at two-state negotiations was in Barack Obama’s presidency. This was a halfhearted effort up to half a generation ago. When Netanyahu called Obama’s bluff he folded. Donald Trump played cheerleader to Netanyahu’s increasingly open contempt for the two-state process. Biden has acted as though the Palestinian problem no longer exists. Given his other geopolitical challenges, Biden’s wishful thinking may have been understandable. It has now come back to bite him. America can no longer afford to turn a blind eye.
Two things have changed since Obama’s failed attempt to revive peace talks. First, Netanyahu has alienated the large majority of Jewish Americans. The days when Israel could rely on automatic Jewish-American support have gone. For this, the Israeli prime minister is almost single-handedly responsible. In 2015 he broke all protocol when he opposed Obama’s signature Iran nuclear deal in a speech to Congress. Since most Jewish Americans are Democratic, and since the US right has increasingly flirted with antisemitic tropes, this was a reckless gamble. Supporting Netanyahu’s Israel became a Republican thing.
Second, Israel has the most hard-right government in the democratic world. Netanyahu has borrowed antisemitic imagery about George Soros from the likes of Trump and Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. His logic is that Jews can only be safe in Israel, which gives him a warped affinity for nativist groups across the west. To most non-Israeli Jews, and roughly half of Israel, Netanyahu’s ideological bedfellows are repugnant. Yet he is the most moderate member of the government he leads.
Netanyahu’s alliance with the Trumpian wing of US politics gives Biden more space than his predecessors to play the role of honest broker. Every pore in Biden’s body will resist doing that. For almost all of his political career, backing Israel has made bipartisan commonsense. Exactly half a century ago — just nine months after Biden became a US senator — Egypt invaded Israel in the Yom Kippur war. Like today, Israel was caught napping. Unlike today, Israel was the underdog. The safest space for an ambitious Democrat in the following years was to support Israel in all seasons. That is now a contentious position — and a particularly dangerous one for Biden.
Last weekend’s massacres were designed to provoke retaliatory Israeli atrocities in the Gaza Strip, which would validate Hamas’s Manichean worldview and its claim to be the chief legitimate voice of the Palestinian people. It would further undercut Fatah’s control of the occupied West Bank and fan extremism in Israel. Each of these knock-on effects would harm America’s standing and further undermine Israel’s security. The emotional temptation is to offer Netanyahu’s government unconditional support. It is hard to hear stories of slaughtered infants and not succumb to blind vengefulness. The rational position is to reject the playbook that Hamas wants.
Biden’s immediate priority will be to secure the release of American hostages. He has sent an aircraft carrier group to the region. But his overriding goal must be to break the cycle of escalating violence. Last Saturday’s killing was horrific, yet should come as no surprise. Gaza, as others have remarked, is the world’s largest open-air prison. Netanyahu has deprived Palestinians of hope for the future and peaceful outlets to express their frustrations. John F Kennedy, Biden’s original hero, said: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.” Israelis and Palestinians are on the brink of writing an even darker chapter in their history. Biden has the means to hijack that script. It is the most pro-Israeli thing he could do.
[email protected]
I'd love to know how the previous administration wasn't an "honest broker". Please, that's just such an easy road to feed simple minds.
The simple fact remains, this administration was facilitating a terrorist state at lengths not seen in decades.
A large chunk of State is an extension of the DOD. Then they bring an Iranian appeaser who they then had to put on ice because by numerous accounts he was the "victim" of a long running Iranian influence campaign for nearly a decade and may have given the Iranians classified information.
Then the soft landing for the historic Biden. The historic Biden who used to get up in the Senate and demand, pounding his fist on the lectern that money to support Israel was the best money the United States ever spent.
Post by: CNS on October 11, 2023, 05:46:48 PM
I think I misread your post. You have a lot of double negatives. I was reading it as "neither Israel or Hamas wanted this", which is why I asked if you meant Palestine instead.
No, I don't think Israel wanted to have a bunch of their people butchered. You're suggesting the Israeli people are so bloodthirsty they wanted to have this go down like that?
I’m not talking about the people in general. I am talking about those in power. I am sure Isreal would be happy to slowly and completely squeeze Palestine into a corner of the world so small and controlled that they effectively didn’t exist. I suspect many in power are also happy that something happened which give them a good reason to expedite that process.
Post by: Cire on October 11, 2023, 06:30:20 PM
This nails it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: wetwillie on October 11, 2023, 06:36:21 PM
Post by: Pete on October 11, 2023, 06:47:54 PM
I mean not having an economy dependent on global oil prices.I long for a day when we have energy independence and can wash our hands of this stuff. Just completely ignore countries driven by religion.
Aren't we already a net exporter of oil and the largest oil producer in the world?
Post by: Pete on October 11, 2023, 06:50:03 PM
We at the least have no state sanctioned religion. It’s certainly lost on the Republicans, but it’s still a big deal that we are free from that particular horror.I long for a day when we have energy independence and can wash our hands of this stuff. Just completely ignore countries driven by religion.
Aren't we already a net exporter of oil and the largest oil producer in the world?
And almost completely politically driven by religion.
Post by: Spracne on October 11, 2023, 06:52:44 PM
We at the least have no state sanctioned religion. It’s certainly lost on the Republicans, but it’s still a big deal that we are free from that particular horror.I long for a day when we have energy independence and can wash our hands of this stuff. Just completely ignore countries driven by religion.
Aren't we already a net exporter of oil and the largest oil producer in the world?
And almost completely politically driven by religion.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/bjB3gtFvREqqr5NAHW/giphy.gif)
Post by: CNS on October 11, 2023, 07:47:18 PM
CNS probably thinks 911 was an inside job too, smdh.
No, but it’s undeniable that those in power took advantage to further certain causes after 911 happened.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 11, 2023, 07:47:38 PM
Post by: wetwillie on October 11, 2023, 08:48:03 PM
CNS probably thinks 911 was an inside job too, smdh.
No, but it’s undeniable that those in power took advantage to further certain causes after 911 happened.
Actually I think some evidence is mounting that Egyptian intelligence shared with Israel detailed proof that Hamas was training for this event several days in advance.
Post by: steve dave on October 11, 2023, 09:05:18 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 11, 2023, 09:08:45 PM
Post by: CNS on October 11, 2023, 09:12:06 PM
CNS probably thinks 911 was an inside job too, smdh.
No, but it’s undeniable that those in power took advantage to further certain causes after 911 happened.
Actually I think some evidence is mounting that Egyptian intelligence shared with Israel detailed proof that Hamas was training for this event several days in advance.
I don’t know if I am misreading you or vice versa, but I am not implying that this was anything other than a terrorist attack by Hamas.
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on October 11, 2023, 10:04:30 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8NMfkzXMAAa08R?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 12, 2023, 08:03:57 AM
EU leaders calling for blockades and applauding the cutting off of everything for Gaza.
Post by: Cire on October 12, 2023, 08:40:32 AM
Quote
People ask me all the time if I am "pro-Israel" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being "pro-Israel" or being "pro-Palestine" or being a "Zionist" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine.
I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on "both sides," but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can.
Let me start with this: It could have been me.
That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured.
I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it.
It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me.
In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948.
That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel.
The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now.
Are Israelis and British people "colonizers" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it.
You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up.
American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, "Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."
And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the "powerful" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza.
Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this.
I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context:
You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace.
You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising.
And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle:
1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force." Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too.
Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank.
2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own.
There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this.
So, why did this happen now?
I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it.
Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do).
Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance.
Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence.
Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea.
I'm pro-not-killing-civilians.
I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons.
I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head.
I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes.
I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages.
I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process.
I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore.
Post by: wetwillie on October 12, 2023, 08:40:43 AM
Post by: Woogy on October 12, 2023, 09:19:01 AM
Will be interesting to see if/when Egypt takes in refugees after Israel goes into Gaza with the full force of their attack.
They absolutely won't directly. I think the best hope here is for a third party (Jordan, Turkey(?)) backed by US/EU funding/logistics to set up and manage a buffer in Gaza at the crossing.
Post by: wetwillie on October 12, 2023, 09:30:44 AM
Post by: Woogy on October 12, 2023, 11:12:32 AM
I think there's a possibility to establish a trans-loading operation: Aid gets delivered thru Egypt, offloaded literally at the border, inspected, picked up, and crossed into Gaza. But the schedule to establish this is so far behind the curve, that.....I don't know. That's the big question: we all know what's immediately coming, but its what comes next that is just a black hole right now.
Egypt is supremely suspicious of Israel wanting to push (previously), force (currently) as many Gaza Palestinians into the Sinai as possible. I would think they would also be wary of creating further conditions at the border enabling a bum rush out of Gaza, overwhelming Egyptian security/AF.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 12, 2023, 01:55:29 PM
Post by: wetwillie on October 12, 2023, 01:57:31 PM
Post by: Cire on October 12, 2023, 01:59:08 PM
Can they vote him out? No idea how Israel does govt honestly.
no confidence?
Post by: Woogy on October 12, 2023, 02:21:09 PM
Post by: Kid In the Hall on October 12, 2023, 05:13:38 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back
Post by: Woogy on October 12, 2023, 07:59:10 PM
From a relatively recent history perspective, it seems crazy to believe that this situation was actually close to being resolved (at least in a political/practical sense). It's also worth recalling that Netanyahu is a piece of crap and has always been a piece of crap.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back
Yeah - I think any chance for a 2-State solution died that day. The assassin did his job doubly well: Any political authority or capacity died with Rabin. It's just taken this long for the sand in the hourglass to run out.
Post by: Trim on October 12, 2023, 11:52:05 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8PPQL-WMAAB7Ps?format=jpg&name=large)
https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1712544390286291035
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 13, 2023, 01:07:37 AM
Post by: nicname on October 13, 2023, 02:10:47 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 13, 2023, 05:42:01 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8PPQL-WMAAB7Ps?format=jpg&name=large)
https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1712544390286291035
#blueanongE: All Don Trump - All the time
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 13, 2023, 07:04:00 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-friday-intl-hnk/index.html
Post by: MadCat on October 13, 2023, 10:17:04 AM
Ol’ Don has christened himself the king of IsraelIesus Mar-a-Lagus Rex Iudaeorum
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 14, 2023, 11:56:36 AM
But what about the Hamas citizens!
Post by: Spracne on October 14, 2023, 11:58:00 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
Um, what? What a dumb argument, if you can even call it that.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 14, 2023, 12:27:45 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 14, 2023, 12:35:18 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
Um, what? What a dumb argument, if you can even call it that.
Is it?
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 14, 2023, 12:36:32 PM
maga is having a tantrum that there wasn't widespread violence yesterday. Loomer is tearing her disgusting hair out.
I'm sure they were happy enough that everyone was on heightened alert and continue to be.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 14, 2023, 01:21:27 PM
One is absolutely obsessed
Post by: wetwillie on October 14, 2023, 01:25:04 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 14, 2023, 01:26:48 PM
Looks like Israel is rolling out the lasers, crap just got real.You’re detracting from another meltdown about MAGA with this content
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 14, 2023, 02:19:01 PM
Post by: wetwillie on October 14, 2023, 02:24:32 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 14, 2023, 05:12:38 PM
https://Twitter.com/maxabrahms/status/1713229349212606887?s=46&t=-jwPwnR3rKHM9sk9hA7h8gOh man, I have a better one.
What if there was an immediate cease fire and a two state solution?
If we are just making crap up and dreaming, why not aim a bit higher?
Post by: MakeItRain on October 15, 2023, 11:25:53 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 15, 2023, 11:28:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8PPQL-WMAAB7Ps?format=jpg&name=large)
https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1712544390286291035
I, like everyone else, clearly want netanyahu gone. That being said, I'm real leery of trumps motives here.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 15, 2023, 11:30:07 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on October 15, 2023, 11:48:17 PM
You're arguing with a dude who believes the Paul Pelosi gay lover conspiracy.Yeah, you're right, I got hooked
Post by: MakeItRain on October 15, 2023, 11:50:16 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8PPQL-WMAAB7Ps?format=jpg&name=large)
https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1712544390286291035
I, like everyone else, clearly want netanyahu gone. That being said, I'm real leery of trumps motives here.
Well, that didn't take long. I can't believe this is his basis for his foreign policy decision making, on a vital issue. Insane.
Quote
But Trump, the early front-runner for the GOP presidential nomination who has long tried to paint himself as a fierce defender of Israel, offered stark criticism Wednesday night. He told the rally crowd that his prayers were with Israel and again vowed to stand by the country and back efforts to destroy Hamas — before he went on to describe a “bad experience” with Israel's leaders that he had never shared before.
“Israel was going to do this with us, and it was being planned and working on it for months,” he said about the coordination to kill Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran’s Quds Force. “We had everything all set to go, and the night before it happened, I got a call that Israel will not be participating in this attack.”
“Nobody’s heard this story before,” Trump said. “They didn’t tell us why.”
“I’ll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down,” he said.
“We were disappointed by that. Very disappointed,” he said. “But we did the job ourselves, with absolute precision … and then Bibi tried to take credit for it.”
Post by: Pete on October 16, 2023, 08:00:50 AM
I’d bet my retirement fund that Donald Trump has never uttered a sincere prayer for Israel in his life.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 08:46:20 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 08:51:42 AM
You're arguing with a dude who believes the Paul Pelosi gay lover conspiracy.
ag seed 7 not being able to understand sarcasm. Shocker! His memory is so distorted and gets confused from what he reads on TXags and when someone one posts a differing view with him here that he just throws crap on a thread. Not once did I believe this.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 16, 2023, 08:53:06 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
Post by: MakeItRain on October 16, 2023, 09:16:49 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
Post by: wetwillie on October 16, 2023, 09:26:20 AM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 09:31:07 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
What I have alluded to is the barbaric nature in which Hamas attacked Israel and that they have every right to do what is necessary to not let it happen again. I have also stated my appreciation for everyone (me included) who does not want to see innocent people die. This is not a reality here or in any other war.
I can pontificate on the Israeli-Palestine conflict that has lasted hundred of years and point to both sides being wrong or the injustices that have occurred on both sides. No one here is an expert or would be able to cover all that has happened, not even KK. So BAC being cute with his question or you accusing me of things I haven't said or even mean can keep pounding on that door.
anti-semites: 2
not anti-semites: 0
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 09:42:55 AM
Israel is going to eradicate Hamas in Gaza or at least give a full attempt. What comes after that?
Probably Israel creating another apartheid state? I have no idea but I hope it will be something peaceful which I doubt. And as much as I'd like to elaborate on all of these things that haven't even happened yet, I have a charity golf event I'm leaving for at Creekmoor. :fatty: :fatty: (ftp://:fatty: :fatty:)
After a beautiful day on the links with several Bloody Marys and beers under my belt, I will be more equipped to handle some of these deep topics and handle ag seed 7 bringing absolutely nothing to a conversation. :cheers: (ftp://:cheers:)
Post by: michigancat on October 16, 2023, 10:22:49 AM
Israel is going to eradicate Hamas in Gaza or at least give a full attempt. What comes after that?
Given the amount of civilians who will die and be injured in the process, you'll probably end up with a lot of people radicalized against Israel, maybe more than were previously?
Post by: MakeItRain on October 16, 2023, 10:28:45 AM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 16, 2023, 10:32:28 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
What I have alluded to is the barbaric nature in which Hamas attacked Israel and that they have every right to do what is necessary to not let it happen again. I have also stated my appreciation for everyone (me included) who does not want to see innocent people die. This is not a reality here or in any other war.
I can pontificate on the Israeli-Palestine conflict that has lasted hundred of years and point to both sides being wrong or the injustices that have occurred on both sides. No one here is an expert or would be able to cover all that has happened, not even KK. So BAC being cute with his question or you accusing me of things I haven't said or even mean can keep pounding on that door.
anti-semites: 2
not anti-semites: 0
I’m not asking about anything you haven’t said. I’m asking about something you explicitly stated and I’ve bolded it for you above so we are clear. Also not sure who is being antisemitic? Was someone on this board judging Israel (or since you can’t seem to differentiate The State from the religion, The Jews) based on their religious beliefs or cultural norms?
Post by: cfbandyman on October 16, 2023, 10:35:51 AM
He told the crowd his prayers are with Israel, eh?
I’d bet my retirement fund that Donald Trump has never uttered a sincere prayer for Israel in his life.
Or a sincere prayer at all tbh
Post by: wetwillie on October 16, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
Israel is going to eradicate Hamas in Gaza or at least give a full attempt. What comes after that?
Given the amount of civilians who will die and be injured in the process, you'll probably end up with a lot of people radicalized against Israel, maybe more than were previously?
That seems likely and to me feels like they will just trade Hamas for an organization with similar objectives by a new name. Unless they plan to reoccupy Gaza again.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 16, 2023, 10:41:47 AM
You're arguing with a dude who believes the Paul Pelosi gay lover conspiracy.
On the flipside there was #blueanon who believed to their core it was some sort of MAGA driven attack. Which is what simple brained #blueanon/#bluanongE always believe.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 16, 2023, 10:52:12 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
What I have alluded to is the barbaric nature in which Hamas attacked Israel and that they have every right to do what is necessary to not let it happen again. I have also stated my appreciation for everyone (me included) who does not want to see innocent people die. This is not a reality here or in any other war.
I can pontificate on the Israeli-Palestine conflict that has lasted hundred of years and point to both sides being wrong or the injustices that have occurred on both sides. No one here is an expert or would be able to cover all that has happened, not even KK. So BAC being cute with his question or you accusing me of things I haven't said or even mean can keep pounding on that door.
anti-semites: 2
not anti-semites: 0
I’m not asking about anything you haven’t said. I’m asking about something you explicitly stated and I’ve bolded it for you above so we are clear. Also not sure who is being antisemitic? Was someone on this board judging Israel (or since you can’t seem to differentiate The State from the religion, The Jews) based on their religious beliefs or cultural norms?
He's a rough ridin' liar, I'm not going to post them all, but he's posted that more than once in this thread.
The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel. Especially when it was so barbaric. Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews. Israel didn't start this. There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.
Post by: passranch on October 16, 2023, 12:51:01 PM
He told the crowd his prayers are with Israel, eh?
I’d bet my retirement fund that Donald Trump has never uttered a sincere prayer for Israel in his life.
Or a sincere prayer at all tbh
I initially had the same thought but then I realized there have probably been several pregnancy tests/STD tests that he has sought divine help with in his life.
Post by: michigancat on October 16, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Israel is going to eradicate Hamas in Gaza or at least give a full attempt. What comes after that?
Given the amount of civilians who will die and be injured in the process, you'll probably end up with a lot of people radicalized against Israel, maybe more than were previously?
That seems likely and to me feels like they will just trade Hamas for an organization with similar objectives by a new name. Unless they plan to reoccupy Gaza again.
which, again, probably leads to more radicalization unless implemented in a wildly different way.
Post by: Pete on October 16, 2023, 03:15:43 PM
Post by: wetwillie on October 16, 2023, 03:37:36 PM
Post by: Trim on October 16, 2023, 08:58:37 PM
It certainly feels, at times, that there are only two solutions; one of them eradicates the other, or they eradicate each other.
God will step in and let them know which one has been right all this time before it gets THAT bad.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 10:19:07 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
What I have alluded to is the barbaric nature in which Hamas attacked Israel and that they have every right to do what is necessary to not let it happen again. I have also stated my appreciation for everyone (me included) who does not want to see innocent people die. This is not a reality here or in any other war.
I can pontificate on the Israeli-Palestine conflict that has lasted hundred of years and point to both sides being wrong or the injustices that have occurred on both sides. No one here is an expert or would be able to cover all that has happened, not even KK. So BAC being cute with his question or you accusing me of things I haven't said or even mean can keep pounding on that door.
anti-semites: 2
not anti-semites: 0
I’m not asking about anything you haven’t said. I’m asking about something you explicitly stated and I’ve bolded it for you above so we are clear. Also not sure who is being antisemitic? Was someone on this board judging Israel (or since you can’t seem to differentiate The State from the religion, The Jews) based on their religious beliefs or cultural norms?
He's a rough ridin' liar, I'm not going to post them all, but he's posted that more than once in this thread.The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel. Especially when it was so barbaric. Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews. Israel didn't start this. There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:)
Hello anti semite... shocking!.. you are the biggest bigot on this board and now have proved you're an anti-semite as well. You are a joke dude. Please continue to try and put me in some weird box where you think I don't care for lives of civilians. You want so badly for me to hate on one side. You are mumped up'd my friend.
Post by: Pete on October 16, 2023, 10:20:49 PM
Does god reward the right one with prolonged corporeal existence in the Middle East, or immediate seating in heaven?It certainly feels, at times, that there are only two solutions; one of them eradicates the other, or they eradicate each other.
God will step in and let them know which one has been right all this time before it gets THAT bad.
Head scratcher.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 16, 2023, 10:31:13 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
What I have alluded to is the barbaric nature in which Hamas attacked Israel and that they have every right to do what is necessary to not let it happen again. I have also stated my appreciation for everyone (me included) who does not want to see innocent people die. This is not a reality here or in any other war.
I can pontificate on the Israeli-Palestine conflict that has lasted hundred of years and point to both sides being wrong or the injustices that have occurred on both sides. No one here is an expert or would be able to cover all that has happened, not even KK. So BAC being cute with his question or you accusing me of things I haven't said or even mean can keep pounding on that door.
anti-semites: 2
not anti-semites: 0
I’m not asking about anything you haven’t said. I’m asking about something you explicitly stated and I’ve bolded it for you above so we are clear. Also not sure who is being antisemitic? Was someone on this board judging Israel (or since you can’t seem to differentiate The State from the religion, The Jews) based on their religious beliefs or cultural norms?
He's a rough ridin' liar, I'm not going to post them all, but he's posted that more than once in this thread.The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel. Especially when it was so barbaric. Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews. Israel didn't start this. There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:)
Hello anti semite... shocking!.. you are the biggest bigot on this board and now have proved you're an anti-semite as well. You are a joke dude. Please continue to try and put me in some weird box where you think I don't care for lives of civilians. You want so badly for me to hate on one side. You are mumped up'd my friend.
Ok so purp you’re just shitposting. Got it. Kind of relieved, I didn’t want to think you were actually that stupid to believe the crap you are espousing
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 10:48:05 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/france-mobilises-7000-troops-for-extra-patrols-after-teacher-slain/ar-AA1icvVW)
But what about the Hamas citizens!
The difference between you and literally everyone else here is that the rest of us realize that psychopaths of all religions and nationalities exist and they aren't reflections of the people at large
https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/1713629072843030969
We can trade links, for hours, going tit for tat with you showing links about an extreme Muslim killing someone and I can show another with a Muslim who's not an extremist who was killed for simply existing, none of this should be the point.
I don't know if you're shitposting or you really think that all Muslims condone murder, either way, I really wish you would stop.
You are correct about the exchanging of barbs but I can tell you that neither of these innocent people would have died if Israel wasn't invaded by psychopaths. You also say that the difference between me and LITERALLY EVERYONE else here blah blah blah... Not everyone else showed remorse or outrage for what happened to Israel (did you btw?). They were more worried about big bad Israel who were now going to go kill innocent Palestines. I know you have comprehension issues so I'm not shocked.
Purp is it your position that Israel is attempting to co-exist peacefully with Palestinians and are only ever violent in response to provocation from the Palestinians? Just wanting to get a gauge on this one
He's said/alluded to that more than once. It's not a real surprise that he and others know about the Islamic terror groups and antisemites who think that Israel and Jews within it shouldn't exist, but are willfully ignorant to the Israeli government officials and zionists who think that Palestinians should be removed from what they view as the Jewish birthright, at any human expense necessary.
What I have alluded to is the barbaric nature in which Hamas attacked Israel and that they have every right to do what is necessary to not let it happen again. I have also stated my appreciation for everyone (me included) who does not want to see innocent people die. This is not a reality here or in any other war.
I can pontificate on the Israeli-Palestine conflict that has lasted hundred of years and point to both sides being wrong or the injustices that have occurred on both sides. No one here is an expert or would be able to cover all that has happened, not even KK. So BAC being cute with his question or you accusing me of things I haven't said or even mean can keep pounding on that door.
anti-semites: 2
not anti-semites: 0
I’m not asking about anything you haven’t said. I’m asking about something you explicitly stated and I’ve bolded it for you above so we are clear. Also not sure who is being antisemitic? Was someone on this board judging Israel (or since you can’t seem to differentiate The State from the religion, The Jews) based on their religious beliefs or cultural norms?
He's a rough ridin' liar, I'm not going to post them all, but he's posted that more than once in this thread.The reality is that there will always be civilian collateral damage when you have an assault like the one you had on Israel. Especially when it was so barbaric. Again, Hamas wants to destroy the Jews. Israel didn't start this. There seems to be very little sympathy for them in that regard almost to the point where this thread is starting to ooze antisemitism galore.
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:)
Hello anti semite... shocking!.. you are the biggest bigot on this board and now have proved you're an anti-semite as well. You are a joke dude. Please continue to try and put me in some weird box where you think I don't care for lives of civilians. You want so badly for me to hate on one side. You are mumped up'd my friend.
Ok so purp you’re just shitposting. Got it. Kind of relieved, I didn’t want to think you were actually that stupid to believe the crap you are espousing
Which is what? You're another that thinks he's so righteous when it come to an attack on the innocent and plays the "what about isms". You know the plight of the Palestinians I'm sure? What a joke...
And what exactly am I espousing you piece of crap?
Post by: star seed 7 on October 16, 2023, 10:51:12 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 10:56:22 PM
purp with the daxian projection
ag seed 7 with nothing that would contribute to the thread.
You are definitely good at what you do.... :jerk: (ftp://:jerk:)
Post by: wetwillie on October 16, 2023, 10:57:02 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 16, 2023, 11:01:25 PM
I have done a review of this thread and have confirmed everyone is in fact pro Semite
Please reveal where you received data and show data.. tia.. :driving: (ftp://:driving:)
Post by: Trim on October 16, 2023, 11:04:47 PM
Does god reward the right one with prolonged corporeal existence in the Middle East, or immediate seating in heaven?It certainly feels, at times, that there are only two solutions; one of them eradicates the other, or they eradicate each other.
God will step in and let them know which one has been right all this time before it gets THAT bad.
Head scratcher.
The wrong team will fall in line.
Post by: nicname on October 16, 2023, 11:11:19 PM
Post by: MakeItRain on October 17, 2023, 08:31:30 AM
https://twitter.com/JudahAriGross/status/1713948089302573506
To review here's the so called problematic Harvard statement
Quote
As the events of recent days continue to reverberate, let there be no doubt that I condemn the terrorist atrocities perpetrated by Hamas. Such inhumanity is abhorrent, whatever one’s individual views of the origins of longstanding conflicts in the region.
Let me also state, on this matter as on others, that while our students have the right to speak for themselves, no student group — not even 30 student groups — speaks for Harvard University or its leadership.
We will all be well served in such a difficult moment by rhetoric that aims to illuminate and not inflame. And I appeal to all of us in this community of learning to keep this in mind as our conversations continue.
Claudine Gay
President, Harvard University
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 17, 2023, 10:09:35 AM
Post by: MadCat on October 17, 2023, 11:15:57 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 17, 2023, 02:29:02 PM
Post by: bucket on October 17, 2023, 05:26:50 PM
Leslie Wexner is actually real life scum, so it's whatever, but I don't understand this at all. What exactly are they looking for?
https://twitter.com/JudahAriGross/status/1713948089302573506
To review here's the so called problematic Harvard statementQuoteAs the events of recent days continue to reverberate, let there be no doubt that I condemn the terrorist atrocities perpetrated by Hamas. Such inhumanity is abhorrent, whatever one’s individual views of the origins of longstanding conflicts in the region.
Let me also state, on this matter as on others, that while our students have the right to speak for themselves, no student group — not even 30 student groups — speaks for Harvard University or its leadership.
We will all be well served in such a difficult moment by rhetoric that aims to illuminate and not inflame. And I appeal to all of us in this community of learning to keep this in mind as our conversations continue.
Claudine Gay
President, Harvard University
I read yesterday or over the weekend how Jon Huntsman was doing the same thing with UPenn. The article explained that Huntsman, or the Huntsman Foundation, didn't think UPenn leadership went far enough in condemning a specific event that hosted speakers with a history of antisemitic statements. This appears to be a similar case. I kind of get it but also feel that it must suck to be a university admin at this time because it's obviously a really delicate situation and not getting it exactly right can end up costing you a lot of money.
Post by: wetwillie on October 17, 2023, 06:49:36 PM
The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 17, 2023, 07:06:58 PM
The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
#blueanongE never believes those kinds of claims, they'll always roll with the opening narrative and never deviate. (FYI - Al Jazeera broadcast the misfire live)
Post by: Pete on October 17, 2023, 07:08:30 PM
I wouldn’t rule out an accurately fired rocket from Hamas. It’s pickle, I believe both IDF and Hamas would casually do that in the blink of an eye.The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Post by: wetwillie on October 17, 2023, 07:11:09 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 17, 2023, 07:46:47 PM
I will not get out my jump to conclusions mat on this one and will await some definitive conclusions by impartial third parties.The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
#blueanongE never believes those kinds of claims, they'll always roll with the opening narrative and never deviate. (FYI - Al Jazeera broadcast the misfire live)
Post by: bucket on October 17, 2023, 08:09:17 PM
I don't like the sound of that.
Post by: michigancat on October 17, 2023, 08:26:29 PM
I will not get out my jump to conclusions mat on this one and will await some definitive conclusions by impartial third parties.The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
#blueanongE never believes those kinds of claims, they'll always roll with the opening narrative and never deviate. (FYI - Al Jazeera broadcast the misfire live)
Honestly I don't believe anything on Twitter these days
Post by: cfbandyman on October 17, 2023, 08:32:33 PM
I will not get out my jump to conclusions mat on this one and will await some definitive conclusions by impartial third parties.The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
#blueanongE never believes those kinds of claims, they'll always roll with the opening narrative and never deviate. (FYI - Al Jazeera broadcast the misfire live)
Honestly I don't believe anything on Twitter these days
Yeah I've seen a lot of both sides saying it was the other that did it. Twitter is impossible to tell who did what. I'll wait til there is a definitive answer. End of day though hundreds died and this crap needs to stop
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 17, 2023, 09:44:18 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 17, 2023, 10:05:40 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 17, 2023, 10:14:19 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 17, 2023, 10:17:10 PM
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1714377828131553446?s=20
Post by: bucket on October 17, 2023, 11:06:23 PM
https://twitter.com/IranObserver0/status/1714396925695320434?s=20
https://twitter.com/iranobserver0/status/1714398974466035822
:facepalm:
More pathetic than Gamer India. Dax Jones, believer of everything on the internet.
Post by: Trim on October 17, 2023, 11:52:16 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 17, 2023, 11:58:49 PM
But that's bucket and that's #blueanongE featuring #trimdorkin :thumbsup:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 12:06:50 AM
Tue, Oct 17, 1:32?PM New York Times Breaking news: Israeli strike on hospital kills hundreds, Palestinian officials say
Israeli Strike Kills Hundreds in Hospital, Palestinian Officials Say
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 12:44:52 AM
https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/hundreds-swarm-us-embassy-in-beirut-ahead-of-bidens-visit-to-israel/
https://www.foxnews.com/world/lebanese-protesters-us-embassy-beirut-gaza-hospical-hit-reports
Post by: MakeItRain on October 18, 2023, 01:01:08 AM
The IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Post by: Katpappy on October 18, 2023, 01:02:45 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on October 18, 2023, 02:56:55 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 05:48:13 AM
Sad
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 05:48:40 AM
LMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 06:01:50 AM
https://nypost.com/2023/10/17/squad-members-omar-tlaib-blame-israel-for-deadly-hospital-bombing-demand-biden-call-for-cease-fire/
https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1714358704303157661?s=20
Post by: bucket on October 18, 2023, 07:14:25 AM
The Squad is telling #blueanon Israel did it. But that got damnIran Observer@IranObserver0
FYP
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 07:52:54 AM
The Squad is telling #blueanon Israel did it. But that got damnIran Observer@IranObserver0
FYP
I suppose that's all you have left when you realize that The Squad and NYT's are (according to you) agents of disinformation.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 08:07:49 AM
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/protests-erupt-near-u-s-embassy-in-lebanon-after-gaza-hospital-explosion-195863109531
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 08:35:39 AM
LMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 18, 2023, 09:58:16 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 10:51:40 AM
Not happening . . . bucket
Post by: Cire on October 18, 2023, 11:04:44 AM
implication being that this was not a bomb because there'd be a crater, cars wouldn't be sitting in the same spots etc.
Someone compared the pics to other bombings that killed hundreds and unless that parking lot had 500 people standing around when it happened, there's probably little chance that number is correct.
I'm not saying I believe any of that but that's what I've gathered today.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 18, 2023, 11:07:59 AM
Post by: wetwillie on October 18, 2023, 11:12:50 AM
Biden is strongly saying Islamic Jihad rocket too. I hope that there can be some continued sharing of data/findings and further independent groups to vouch for this so that it can give an exit ramp for people like Sisi and King Abdullah.
What do you think the holdup is on Israel sending in ground troops to Gaza? US still trying to broker a deal and keep them from doing it?
Post by: Kat Kid on October 18, 2023, 11:17:52 AM
Biden is strongly saying Islamic Jihad rocket too. I hope that there can be some continued sharing of data/findings and further independent groups to vouch for this so that it can give an exit ramp for people like Sisi and King Abdullah.
What do you think the holdup is on Israel sending in ground troops to Gaza? US still trying to broker a deal and keep them from doing it?
1. I don't know
2. If I had to guess:
a) there was no way they were going to do it with Biden there
b) Israel may not feel super confident that a ground invasion would go very well--ie lose hostages, take a lot of casualties etc.
c) I think Israel may be waiting to see what comes of the hospital stuff, will Hizbollah/Iran do something further? Will things calm down or escalate?
d) they have just agreed to let in humanitarian aide through Rafa gate so that will take at least 24 hours I think
so I am not even sure they will do a big ground invasion at all, but if they do there are lots of reasons to not do it now.
Post by: nicname on October 18, 2023, 11:34:19 AM
Might have been in gE where I read it. Dunno. Very gross.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 11:47:03 AM
I’ve heard that historically Israel will select a bombing target; hospital, school, etc. then give Hamas or the Palestinian leaders several days of warnings to evacuate, then bomb it whether or not an evacuation happens. Sometimes they evacuate, sometimes they don’t.
Might have been in gE where I read it. Dunno. Very gross.
I'll go ahead and add you to the "doesn't understand sarcasm" group.
And maybe there's a, "day of unprecedented rage" event happening near you where you can voice your displeasure the way Israel has treated Hamas. :dunno: (ftp://:dunno:)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 11:52:14 AM
dax as you know i'm always several laps down, so please help me understand. these "alleged" protests (according to the deep state media, take that for what its worth amirite) at US embassies...what is the implication there? And how does it relate to this most recent attack on a hospital in gaza?
It's a direct correlation. The Arab world (and the Squad and their whack-a-doo followers) believe the Israeli's did it.
Thus they are marching on U.S. embassies in various countries/cities, or at least were last night/yesterday.
FYI - The U.S. (Pedo Pete Administration) officially confirmed that they 100% believe that Israeli's did not do it.
Post by: nicname on October 18, 2023, 12:39:39 PM
I’ve heard that historically Israel will select a bombing target; hospital, school, etc. then give Hamas or the Palestinian leaders several days of warnings to evacuate, then bomb it whether or not an evacuation happens. Sometimes they evacuate, sometimes they don’t.
Might have been in gE where I read it. Dunno. Very gross.
I'll go ahead and add you to the "doesn't understand sarcasm" group.
And maybe there's a, "day of unprecedented rage" event happening near you where you can voice your displeasure the way Israel has treated Hamas. :dunno: (ftp://:dunno:)
There are multiple bad actors in the situation described.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 01:08:45 PM
I’ve heard that historically Israel will select a bombing target; hospital, school, etc. then give Hamas or the Palestinian leaders several days of warnings to evacuate, then bomb it whether or not an evacuation happens. Sometimes they evacuate, sometimes they don’t.
Might have been in gE where I read it. Dunno. Very gross.
I'll go ahead and add you to the "doesn't understand sarcasm" group.
And maybe there's a, "day of unprecedented rage" event happening near you where you can voice your displeasure the way Israel has treated Hamas. :dunno: (ftp://:dunno:)
There are multiple bad actors in the situation described.
And it's been discussed adnauseam. Once again the issue I have is that it seems that more people on here want so badly to have a "gotcha" moment against the Israeli's when they didn't start this war (and yes we know they aren't perfect). They seem more concerned about the welfare of Palestinian civilians than anyone else's?
Little to no discussion has been had on the people who are still kidnapped or about the Americans who have been killed? I've been told by a high ranking goEMAW official that there are not any anti-Semites on this board but I am still not 100% convinced.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 18, 2023, 02:42:31 PM
QuoteLMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Israel literally ordered the hospitals in Gaza to be evacuated. Why would they make this order if they planned on keeping hospitals safe?
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured.html
Israel has been very clear that they are blocking supplies to hospitals and turning off their utilities, but they would never target hospitals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-workers-gaza-killed-1.6992828
History beyond this week? Okay.
2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140812195149/http://news.yahoo.com/israel-vows-destroy-hamas-tunnels-deaths-spike-214755183.html
Quote
As the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.
She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas." But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.
There's a very clear strategic reason why Israel targets hospitals in Gaza, if you took the time to read anything other than this board and the Epoch Times you'd know why Israel makes hospitals strategic targets when fighting Hamas but you just stay ignorant.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 02:56:08 PM
QuoteLMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Israel literally ordered the hospitals in Gaza to be evacuated. Why would they make this order if they planned on keeping hospitals safe?
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured.html
Israel has been very clear that they are blocking supplies to hospitals and turning off their utilities, but they would never target hospitals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-workers-gaza-killed-1.6992828
History beyond this week? Okay.
2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140812195149/http://news.yahoo.com/israel-vows-destroy-hamas-tunnels-deaths-spike-214755183.htmlQuoteAs the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.
She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas." But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.
There's a very clear strategic reason why Israel targets hospitals in Gaza, if you took the time to read anything other than this board and the Epoch Times you'd know why Israel makes hospitals strategic targets when fighting Hamas but you just stay ignorant.
As compared to such a well read anti-Semitic, bigoted douchebag like yourself? :lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Keep fighting for the injustices of Hamas bud.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 04:51:44 PM
This most be the most illiterate law firm in the world..! :curse: :curse: (ftp://:curse: :curse:). eff those racists!
Post by: wetwillie on October 18, 2023, 04:58:19 PM
QuoteLMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Israel literally ordered the hospitals in Gaza to be evacuated. Why would they make this order if they planned on keeping hospitals safe?
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured.html
Israel has been very clear that they are blocking supplies to hospitals and turning off their utilities, but they would never target hospitals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-workers-gaza-killed-1.6992828
History beyond this week? Okay.
2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140812195149/http://news.yahoo.com/israel-vows-destroy-hamas-tunnels-deaths-spike-214755183.htmlQuoteAs the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.
She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas." But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.
There's a very clear strategic reason why Israel targets hospitals in Gaza, if you took the time to read anything other than this board and the Epoch Times you'd know why Israel makes hospitals strategic targets when fighting Hamas but you just stay ignorant.
As compared to such a well read anti-Semitic, bigoted douchebag like yourself? :lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Keep fighting for the injustices of Hamas bud.
Stop
Post by: bucket on October 18, 2023, 05:22:36 PM
It's just fascinating to watch #blueanongE post crap from Twitter randos all day long and then go into full pearl clutching mode regarding a Tweet . . . while two sides hurl claims and counter claims about what blew up the hospital, and the Arab world clearly isn't believing for one second the Israeli side of the story, to the point they're telling our President to go eff himself and stay away.
But that's bucket and that's #blueanongE featuring #trimdorkin :thumbsup:
I prefer not to get my news about the middle east crisis from an account tweeting:
- text verbatim from what a massive bot operation is dropping
- impersonating an Iranian newspaper, as if an Iranian newspaper is a trusted source
- attributing something to the Wall Street Journal which cannot be linked back to any WSJ article
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 18, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
If you want to go dumpster diving for unrelated Tweets, please continue so I can laugh at you.
Nice job of completely skipping over the hot hot takes related to the Tweet (A Tweet that had nothing to do with the topic I posted about) you posted from the confines of your own movement.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 18, 2023, 07:06:20 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 11:09:01 PM
QuoteLMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Israel literally ordered the hospitals in Gaza to be evacuated. Why would they make this order if they planned on keeping hospitals safe?
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured.html
Israel has been very clear that they are blocking supplies to hospitals and turning off their utilities, but they would never target hospitals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-workers-gaza-killed-1.6992828
History beyond this week? Okay.
2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140812195149/http://news.yahoo.com/israel-vows-destroy-hamas-tunnels-deaths-spike-214755183.htmlQuoteAs the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.
She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas." But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.
There's a very clear strategic reason why Israel targets hospitals in Gaza, if you took the time to read anything other than this board and the Epoch Times you'd know why Israel makes hospitals strategic targets when fighting Hamas but you just stay ignorant.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-calls-rush-blame-israel-230207071.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-calls-rush-blame-israel-230207071.html)
Interesting? Why would another liberal not understand the history of Israel/Palestine and say such things? You are an anti_Semite and a joke. This started because YOU wanted to make sure it "wasn't fake news" on the bombing of that hospital? Has Israel bombed places they shouldn't have in the past?? Maybe... but I don't think they have ever killed a civilian without warning or because Hamas doesn't care about their own people.
Post by: MakeItRain on October 18, 2023, 11:20:16 PM
QuoteLMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Israel literally ordered the hospitals in Gaza to be evacuated. Why would they make this order if they planned on keeping hospitals safe?
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured.html
Israel has been very clear that they are blocking supplies to hospitals and turning off their utilities, but they would never target hospitals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-workers-gaza-killed-1.6992828
History beyond this week? Okay.
2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140812195149/http://news.yahoo.com/israel-vows-destroy-hamas-tunnels-deaths-spike-214755183.htmlQuoteAs the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.
She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas." But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.
There's a very clear strategic reason why Israel targets hospitals in Gaza, if you took the time to read anything other than this board and the Epoch Times you'd know why Israel makes hospitals strategic targets when fighting Hamas but you just stay ignorant.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-calls-rush-blame-israel-230207071.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-calls-rush-blame-israel-230207071.html)
Interesting? Why would another liberal not understand the history of Israel/Palestine and say such things? You are an anti_Semite and a joke. This started because YOU wanted to make sure it "wasn't fake news" on the bombing of that hospital? Has Israel bombed places they shouldn't have in the past?? Maybe... but I don't think they have ever killed a civilian without warning or because Hamas doesn't care about their own people.
Why is that link relevant to anything I posted? Did I say or hinted that Israel bombed that hospital?
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 18, 2023, 11:26:28 PM
QuoteLMAOThe IDF has so far not claimed responsibility, but if in fact Israel bombed a hospital, killing 500 innocent people that should be enough to have Biden deliver a clear message that we need a cease fire and to begin negotiations for the return of hostages.
There is some compelling evidence this was a misfired rocket from Hamas
Uh, you got a link to this evidence?
Holy crap! Israel does have a history of targeting schools and hospitals though Dax when it's bombs away against terrorist scum? Throw in that Hamas and other terror organizations would never lie and are extremely accurate with their rocket launching against Israel.
This has the potential to be a bigger grift than BLM. Good for them is what I say.
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Israel literally ordered the hospitals in Gaza to be evacuated. Why would they make this order if they planned on keeping hospitals safe?
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured.html
Israel has been very clear that they are blocking supplies to hospitals and turning off their utilities, but they would never target hospitals.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/health-workers-gaza-killed-1.6992828
History beyond this week? Okay.
2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140812195149/http://news.yahoo.com/israel-vows-destroy-hamas-tunnels-deaths-spike-214755183.htmlQuoteAs the toll grew, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay accused both Israel and Hamas militants of violating the rules of war.
She said Hamas is violating international humanitarian law by "locating rockets within schools and hospitals, or even launching these rockets from densely populated areas." But she added that this did not absolve Israel from disregarding the same law.
There's a very clear strategic reason why Israel targets hospitals in Gaza, if you took the time to read anything other than this board and the Epoch Times you'd know why Israel makes hospitals strategic targets when fighting Hamas but you just stay ignorant.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-calls-rush-blame-israel-230207071.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/fetterman-calls-rush-blame-israel-230207071.html)
Interesting? Why would another liberal not understand the history of Israel/Palestine and say such things? You are an anti_Semite and a joke. This started because YOU wanted to make sure it "wasn't fake news" on the bombing of that hospital? Has Israel bombed places they shouldn't have in the past?? Maybe... but I don't think they have ever killed a civilian without warning or because Hamas doesn't care about their own people.
Why is that link relevant to anything I posted? Did I say or hinted that Israel bombed that hospital?
I'm not sure you really understand anything you post? Do you ever really read anything you respond to? Honest question.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 07:51:06 AM
All because the resolution didn't have words that fully affirmed Israel's rights to self defense.
Post by: 'taterblast on October 19, 2023, 09:37:47 AM
The Biden Administration (fully supported by all #blueanongE at the ballot box) says not only NO but hell NO! To a UN resolution for a pause, so as to allow for humanitarian aid to Gaza.
All because the resolution didn't have words that fully affirmed Israel's rights to self defense.
what would you have done?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 10:49:30 AM
Post by: Cire on October 19, 2023, 11:02:53 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:05:34 AM
:thumbs:
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:09:48 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:11:51 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:13:28 AM
Oh . . . making fun of the all war all the time Biden Administration is also antisemitism (StalkerBot.7)
Post by: wetwillie on October 19, 2023, 11:18:11 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:19:22 AM
Gaza humanitarian advocacy is antisemitism (StalkerBot.7)
Oh . . . making fun of the all war all the time Biden Administration is also antisemitism (StalkerBot.7)
You really don't read or comprehend anything on this blog, do you? You just roasted purp, not me you rough ridin' moron
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:24:38 AM
Gaza humanitarian advocacy is antisemitism (StalkerBot.7)
Oh . . . making fun of the all war all the time Biden Administration is also antisemitism (StalkerBot.7)
You really don't read or comprehend anything on this blog, do you? You just roasted purp, not me you rough ridin' moron
I don't read every post where #blueanongE is raging out because someone else has a differing opinion. I don't have that kind of time.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:26:11 AM
So on brand
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:27:01 AM
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:29:44 AM
#onbrand
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:31:29 AM
Sad
I wish that you weren't such an illiterate, shitposting, eff face. Maybe if you took the time to read and research you wouldn't be such a rough ridin' moron and racist.
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:33:59 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:34:41 AM
Just another day on gE with #stalkerbot
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:35:50 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:38:13 AM
#stalkerbot
Post by: star seed 7 on October 19, 2023, 11:40:38 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 11:43:37 AM
You think you're on a righteous crusade but you're literally melting down because I gave you sincere kudos and made fun of some who was not you. You are a nut job.
You gave me kudos and then followed-up with StakerBot Cryptography because you just assume I've read through post after post of the usual's having their usual meltdown because someone disagrees with them. It's positively :lol:
Like I keep saying, it's amazing to watch your feeble-obsessive little brain attempt to work, and then when the lashing out starts, we all know it's going to last the whole rough ridin' day. :lol:
Post by: LickNeckey on October 19, 2023, 11:59:44 AM
*everything is now a windmill
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 12:45:39 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 12:52:04 PM
"It’s truly disturbing that Members of Congress rushed to blame Israel for the hospital tragedy in Gaza," "Who would take the word of a group that just massacred innocent Israeli civilians over our key ally?" Fetterman questioned.
The Squad calling for intelligence declassification of the Hospital bombing
Post by: michigancat on October 19, 2023, 12:54:04 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 19, 2023, 12:54:39 PM
Calling out our war mongering grifter pedophile racist President doesn't take much "fanaticism". It's pretty easy pickings
Post by: mocat on October 19, 2023, 01:07:15 PM
This thread needs a @sys drop inToo much dax, not enough snakes
Post by: Trim on October 19, 2023, 01:23:06 PM
Post by: mocat on October 21, 2023, 07:46:30 AM
https://twitter.com/myronjclifton/status/1715513778954236290?t=dcLFF6HCg_04RxMUFvq6Rg&s=19
Post by: Trim on October 21, 2023, 10:41:57 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 25, 2023, 07:52:44 AM
“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,”
“However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified,”
Post by: Cire on October 25, 2023, 09:14:47 AM
The New York Times (#blueanon publication of record) - a massive disinformation/misinformation machine, The Squad is not going to be pleased:
“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,”
“However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified,”
TIL the squad is still a thing.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 25, 2023, 10:22:34 AM
The New York Times (#blueanon publication of record) - a massive disinformation/misinformation machine, The Squad is not going to be pleased:
“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,”
“However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified,”
Well what we know so far is two pieces of evidence held up by Israel have been debunked.
The missile video shared at the press conference is almost certainly not of the missile that hit the hospital and the audio recording of Hamas operatives was digitally pieced together and likely faked entirely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html)
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Audio analysis says that the missile is coming from the opposite direction Israel claimed:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Other details like "the rocket was launched from a cemetary" have been debunked as well.
The problem with all of this is the size of the crater which is pretty good evidence it was not an Israeli airstrike.
I hope we get a thorough independent investigation.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 25, 2023, 10:52:47 AM
Post by: wetwillie on October 25, 2023, 11:06:15 AM
The New York Times (#blueanon publication of record) - a massive disinformation/misinformation machine, The Squad is not going to be pleased:
“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,”
“However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified,”
Well what we know so far is two pieces of evidence held up by Israel have been debunked.
The missile video shared at the press conference is almost certainly not of the missile that hit the hospital and the audio recording of Hamas operatives was digitally pieced together and likely faked entirely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html)
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Audio analysis says that the missile is coming from the opposite direction Israel claimed:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Other details like "the rocket was launched from a cemetary" have been debunked as well.
The problem with all of this is the size of the crater which is pretty good evidence it was not an Israeli airstrike.
I hope we get a thorough independent investigation.
The audio piece was hilarious and I brushed it off initially. Makes sense to dismiss it. What about the picture of the bombed parking lot? I thought that was strange.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 25, 2023, 11:11:52 AM
The New York Times (#blueanon publication of record) - a massive disinformation/misinformation machine, The Squad is not going to be pleased:
“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,”
“However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified,”
Well what we know so far is two pieces of evidence held up by Israel have been debunked.
The missile video shared at the press conference is almost certainly not of the missile that hit the hospital and the audio recording of Hamas operatives was digitally pieced together and likely faked entirely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html)
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Audio analysis says that the missile is coming from the opposite direction Israel claimed:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Other details like "the rocket was launched from a cemetary" have been debunked as well.
The problem with all of this is the size of the crater which is pretty good evidence it was not an Israeli airstrike.
I hope we get a thorough independent investigation.
At this point do you think that would do any good at all? People already believe what they are going to believe.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 25, 2023, 11:22:13 AM
Israel (the United States) is at war with: Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, Houthi's (list to be expanded at a moment's notice)
Congrats #neocongE
The question is, how much information about our systems did the Iranians learn from their "friends" in the Biden Administration
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 25, 2023, 12:19:17 PM
Can someone move the Erdo?an coup watch to one minute closer to midnight, please.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 25, 2023, 12:55:38 PM
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 25, 2023, 12:59:34 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
Post by: Kat Kid on October 25, 2023, 01:02:20 PM
The New York Times (#blueanon publication of record) - a massive disinformation/misinformation machine, The Squad is not going to be pleased:
“The Times’s initial accounts attributed the claim of Israeli responsibility to Palestinian officials, and noted that the Israeli military said it was investigating the blast,”
“However, the early versions of the coverage — and the prominence it received in a headline, news alert and social media channels — relied too heavily on claims by Hamas, and did not make clear that those claims could not immediately be verified,”
Well what we know so far is two pieces of evidence held up by Israel have been debunked.
The missile video shared at the press conference is almost certainly not of the missile that hit the hospital and the audio recording of Hamas operatives was digitally pieced together and likely faked entirely.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/24/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-video.html)
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Audio analysis says that the missile is coming from the opposite direction Israel claimed:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion (https://www.npr.org/2023/10/23/1208061552/what-new-analysis-shows-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion)
Other details like "the rocket was launched from a cemetary" have been debunked as well.
The problem with all of this is the size of the crater which is pretty good evidence it was not an Israeli airstrike.
I hope we get a thorough independent investigation.
At this point do you think that would do any good at all? People already believe what they are going to believe.
I don't really disagree, but I think it is important to know what happened.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 25, 2023, 02:05:44 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
i don't think hamas has a perpetual victim complex? could be wrong tho
Post by: MakeItRain on October 25, 2023, 02:11:29 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
Yeah, both sides engage in pretty heavy propaganda and outright lies, is that what you're looking for? The problem here is that one of these bodies is a universally condemned and world recognized terror cell that should be eliminated. The other is an actual country that receives billions of dollars from western allies and is recognized by the united nations.
Post by: mocat on October 25, 2023, 02:18:42 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
this is like when magas compare the US border to the north korean border
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 25, 2023, 02:28:02 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
i don't think hamas has a perpetual victim complex? could be wrong tho
:lol: (ftp://:lol:)Perpetual victim complex huh? Not including recent events I can only think of about 6 million reasons why Israel might have that? Probs fake news tho.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 25, 2023, 02:31:39 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
Yeah, both sides engage in pretty heavy propaganda and outright lies, is that what you're looking for? I will take it. The problem here is that one of these bodies is a universally condemned and world recognized terror cell that should be eliminated. The other is an actual country that receives billions of dollars from western allies and is recognized by the united nations.I won't disagree with you here unless you're saying Hamas shouldn't be viewed as terrorists?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 25, 2023, 02:39:01 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
i don't think hamas has a perpetual victim complex? could be wrong tho
:lol: (ftp://:lol:)Perpetual victim complex huh? Not including recent events I can only think of about 6 million reasons why Israel might have that? Probs fake news tho.
I would continue this conversation, but every time you reply you make it clear just how deeply unserious of a person you are. Charybdis would drown in the depths of your ignorance.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 25, 2023, 02:50:32 PM
in case anyone would like a very cut-and-dry process for how Israel publicly addresses stuff (and they've only been doing it this way since pretty much always):
1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, we'll check into it
2. People were killed, but by a faulty Palenstinian rocket/bomb
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose!
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Now do Hamas!! :excited: :excited: (ftp://:excited: :excited:)
i don't think hamas has a perpetual victim complex? could be wrong tho
:lol: (ftp://:lol:)Perpetual victim complex huh? Not including recent events I can only think of about 6 million reasons why Israel might have that? Probs fake news tho.
I would continue this conversation, but every time you reply you make it clear just how deeply unserious of a person you are. Charybdis would drown in the depths of your ignorance.
I know right? I guess instead of using 6 million reasons of having a victim complex I should have just used the butchering of babies, kids and women as an example? Not to mention the Israeli's that are still kidnapped.
And to think that I will miss out on your astute knowledge of not only Israel but Israeli tactics. Man, my ignorance.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 25, 2023, 03:38:03 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 29, 2023, 08:32:30 PM
I’m honestly not sure if I believe the story since Israel spent the weekend knocking out all forms of communication in Palestine…no phones, no internet, nothing. So if they can’t even write a blog post about what is happening or call for an ambulance, I’m not sure how this story managed to get out.
Poor Israel, though!
Post by: wetwillie on October 29, 2023, 08:35:39 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 29, 2023, 08:52:23 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 29, 2023, 09:11:15 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 30, 2023, 01:44:20 AM
Really sad series (as usual) there for BAC
Which part, brother?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 07:18:52 AM
Thus the usage of "series"
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 30, 2023, 08:32:29 AM
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 11:07:11 AM
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Post by: Dugout DickStone on October 30, 2023, 11:09:12 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 11:10:20 AM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 11:12:15 AM
AND, I don’t blame the IDF one bit for it. Every reasonable human on earth would have concluded this is exactly what would happen if you pulled off what Hamas was planning. It’s all part of Hamas’ plan. They knew very well what would happen.
So we dance the dance that Hamas obligated us all to dance…
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 11:12:58 AM
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 11:13:37 AM
I think you are in a tough spot. You and I seem to agree that the IDF has to protect Israel. However, it’s clear to you (and all humans) that Russia is pro-Hamas.According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 11:17:16 AM
I think you are in a tough spot. You and I seem to agree that the IDF has to protect Israel. However, it’s clear to you (and all humans) that Russia is pro-Hamas.According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
I think you I agree that the United States continues to spend billions of dollars to protect the country where billionaire Hamas leaders are holed up, and Western leaders continue to meet with and give an audience to Hamas facilitators like Mahmoud Abbas.
Trying to point out that a government was trying to free their citizens from captivity as a sign of some kind of alliance is absolutely :lol: :lol:
The alliance is so strong that our alleged friends took our citizens hostage . . . the deep deep thoughts of #blueanongE/#neocongE
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on October 30, 2023, 11:20:43 AM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News), Russians stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1718766555582836755?s=20 (https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1718766555582836755?s=20)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 11:25:48 AM
The Russian government has now arrested over 60 people responsible for these actions.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 30, 2023, 11:32:29 AM
I mean they gave them two weeks to flee to the desert you agendite
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hamas-blocks-foreign-nationals-from-leaving-gaza/ar-AA1j3hDV (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hamas-blocks-foreign-nationals-from-leaving-gaza/ar-AA1j3hDV)
This can't be true? Hamas would never do this to foreign nationals or to their own!!
Post by: I_have_purplewood on October 30, 2023, 11:34:44 AM
Just a friendly reminder that humanitarian aid - a shipment of flour - was allowed to be delivered to a bakery in Gaza. The Israelis were generous enough to wait until the entire shipment was unloaded before bombing that bakery.
I’m honestly not sure if I believe the story since Israel spent the weekend knocking out all forms of communication in Palestine…no phones, no internet, nothing. So if they can’t even write a blog post about what is happening or call for an ambulance, I’m not sure how this story managed to get out.
Poor Israel, though!
I heard there could have been even more aide given if Hamas released some of those kidnapped babies (fake news) but Israel was like, "no way!". Damn Jews!
Post by: star seed 7 on October 30, 2023, 11:52:59 AM
#neocongE/#blueanongE completely ignoring the dominant ethnicity and religion of that region. As expected
The Russian government has now arrested over 60 people responsible for these actions.
Arrested for an unguided tour? Fascists.
Post by: bucket on October 30, 2023, 12:34:30 PM
I think you are in a tough spot. You and I seem to agree that the IDF has to protect Israel. However, it’s clear to you (and all humans) that Russia is pro-Hamas.According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
I think you I agree that the United States continues to spend billions of dollars to protect the country where billionaire Hamas leaders are holed up, and Western leaders continue to meet with and give an audience to Hamas facilitators like Mahmoud Abbas.
Trying to point out that a government was trying to free their citizens from captivity as a sign of some kind of alliance is absolutely :lol: :lol:
The alliance is so strong that our alleged friends took our citizens hostage . . . the deep deep thoughts of #blueanongE/#neocongE
I don't know much about Abbas but I thought he was seeking a peaceful, Palestinian solution. What's this about him being a Hamas facilitator?
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 30, 2023, 12:43:17 PM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Yes great stuff here, Dax. A nation of people who have been the target of state sponsored ethnic cleansing for the last 70 years are calling for…ethnic cleansing. Now, while it would be completely fair for them to want their land that was stolen from them to be returned, they are not calling for an expulsion of the Jews. I think the one exception to that might be the pilgrims from Long Island and their ilk who had never even been to the region but were told “hey feel free to come throw these people out of their homes and take their land. If they give you any trouble you can just kill them or we can do it for you “ yeah those mfers need to gtfo.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 12:47:05 PM
I think you are in a tough spot. You and I seem to agree that the IDF has to protect Israel. However, it’s clear to you (and all humans) that Russia is pro-Hamas.According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
I think you I agree that the United States continues to spend billions of dollars to protect the country where billionaire Hamas leaders are holed up, and Western leaders continue to meet with and give an audience to Hamas facilitators like Mahmoud Abbas.
Trying to point out that a government was trying to free their citizens from captivity as a sign of some kind of alliance is absolutely :lol: :lol:
The alliance is so strong that our alleged friends took our citizens hostage . . . the deep deep thoughts of #blueanongE/#neocongE
I don't know much about Abbas but I thought he was seeking a peaceful, Palestinian solution. What's this about him being a Hamas facilitator?
He's the President of the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian State and he's knowingly allowed Hamas to grow, prosper and get military aid from places like Iran.
That's a facilitator in every form.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 12:48:20 PM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Yes great stuff here, Dax. A nation of people who have been the target of state sponsored ethnic cleansing for the last 70 years are calling for…ethnic cleansing. Now, while it would be completely fair for them to want their land that was stolen from them to be returned, they are not calling for an expulsion of the Jews. I think the one exception to that might be the pilgrims from Long Island and their ilk who had never even been to the region but were told “hey feel free to come throw these people out of their homes and take their land. If they give you any trouble you can just kill them or we can do it for you “ yeah those mfers need to gtfo.
I don't have the first clue what that has to do with what I posted.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 30, 2023, 12:57:23 PM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Yes great stuff here, Dax. A nation of people who have been the target of state sponsored ethnic cleansing for the last 70 years are calling for…ethnic cleansing. Now, while it would be completely fair for them to want their land that was stolen from them to be returned, they are not calling for an expulsion of the Jews. I think the one exception to that might be the pilgrims from Long Island and their ilk who had never even been to the region but were told “hey feel free to come throw these people out of their homes and take their land. If they give you any trouble you can just kill them or we can do it for you “ yeah those mfers need to gtfo.
I don't have the first clue what that has to do with what I posted.
I guess I’m just making a point that -as per - this thing you’ve chosen to be outraged about has absolutely no bearing on anything whatsoever, but let’s get pissed about it anyway!
After all, both you and I know ain’t nobody in the Levant gunna do a damn thing until they check in at the quad of Amherst College to make sure the demands of those students are met.
Post by: wetwillie on October 30, 2023, 01:06:30 PM
Post by: michigancat on October 30, 2023, 01:22:30 PM
AND, I don’t blame the IDF one bit for it. Every reasonable human on earth would have concluded this is exactly what would happen if you pulled off what Hamas was planning. It’s all part of Hamas’ plan. They knew very well what would happen.
So we dance the dance that Hamas obligated us all to dance…
I've seen versions of this talking point floating around - namely that a big part of Hamas's strategy is maximizing civilian casualties to increase sympathy for their cause. SO WHY WOULD ISRAEL PLAY RIGHT INTO THEIR STRATEGY??? just seems dumb
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 01:25:46 PM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Yes great stuff here, Dax. A nation of people who have been the target of state sponsored ethnic cleansing for the last 70 years are calling for…ethnic cleansing. Now, while it would be completely fair for them to want their land that was stolen from them to be returned, they are not calling for an expulsion of the Jews. I think the one exception to that might be the pilgrims from Long Island and their ilk who had never even been to the region but were told “hey feel free to come throw these people out of their homes and take their land. If they give you any trouble you can just kill them or we can do it for you “ yeah those mfers need to gtfo.
I don't have the first clue what that has to do with what I posted.
I guess I’m just making a point that -as per - this thing you’ve chosen to be outraged about has absolutely no bearing on anything whatsoever, but let’s get pissed about it anyway!
After all, both you and I know ain’t nobody in the Levant gunna do a damn thing until they check in at the quad of Amherst College to make sure the demands of those students are met.
Context as always is completely lost on you.
The recent series of posts was the usual meltdown about the got damn
Somehow you've spun that very succinct series of recent events, and tried to turn it into - The political and cultural dynamics of the Modern History of Israel.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 30, 2023, 02:23:36 PM
According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
Yes great stuff here, Dax. A nation of people who have been the target of state sponsored ethnic cleansing for the last 70 years are calling for…ethnic cleansing. Now, while it would be completely fair for them to want their land that was stolen from them to be returned, they are not calling for an expulsion of the Jews. I think the one exception to that might be the pilgrims from Long Island and their ilk who had never even been to the region but were told “hey feel free to come throw these people out of their homes and take their land. If they give you any trouble you can just kill them or we can do it for you “ yeah those mfers need to gtfo.
I don't have the first clue what that has to do with what I posted.
I guess I’m just making a point that -as per - this thing you’ve chosen to be outraged about has absolutely no bearing on anything whatsoever, but let’s get pissed about it anyway!
After all, both you and I know ain’t nobody in the Levant gunna do a damn thing until they check in at the quad of Amherst College to make sure the demands of those students are met.
Context as always is completely lost on you.
The recent series of posts was the usual meltdown about the got damnRussiansMuslims in Russia. The Russian government has placed many of the people invading that airport under arrest. Meanwhile the usual's completely ignore the calls across the globe to wipe Israel off the map.
Somehow you've spun that very succinct series of recent events, and tried to turn it into - The political and cultural dynamics of the Modern History of Israel.
Ok regarding the calls across the globe to wipe Israel off the map…yes, I’m sure they are burning effigies of Netanyahu in every major city of Strawmanistan, but what I’m saying is that nobody who has any skin in the game is calling for the eradication of the Jewish people in any form or fashion. At all. So thank you for making a completely feckless point. You really knocked it out of the park.
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 02:55:05 PM
I think it’s obvious that they knew that IDF would violently and overwhelmingly respond to the type of terror act that Hamas conducted.AND, I don’t blame the IDF one bit for it. Every reasonable human on earth would have concluded this is exactly what would happen if you pulled off what Hamas was planning. It’s all part of Hamas’ plan. They knew very well what would happen.
So we dance the dance that Hamas obligated us all to dance…
I've seen versions of this talking point floating around - namely that a big part of Hamas's strategy is maximizing civilian casualties to increase sympathy for their cause. SO WHY WOULD ISRAEL PLAY RIGHT INTO THEIR STRATEGY??? just seems dumb
Israel has no choice but to respond that way. They have to get those hostages back.
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 02:58:30 PM
Beheading babies and raping people isn’t an appropriate response to anything. It’s a call for war.
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 02:59:32 PM
Post by: Pete on October 30, 2023, 03:01:07 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on October 30, 2023, 03:16:39 PM
1) there is no Palestinian stateI think you are in a tough spot. You and I seem to agree that the IDF has to protect Israel. However, it’s clear to you (and all humans) that Russia is pro-Hamas.According to many global news outlets (even Fox News),RussiansMuslims stormed a runway that a flight from Israel was landing on.
That seems really anitisemitc, doesn’t it?
Meanwhile #blueaongE/#neocongE ignores the thousands of marches across the globe with chants of clearing out Israel from the river to the sea etc. etc. Include those that propose the eradication of Israel on the most #blueanon college campuses and streets of our nation.
I think you I agree that the United States continues to spend billions of dollars to protect the country where billionaire Hamas leaders are holed up, and Western leaders continue to meet with and give an audience to Hamas facilitators like Mahmoud Abbas.
Trying to point out that a government was trying to free their citizens from captivity as a sign of some kind of alliance is absolutely :lol: :lol:
The alliance is so strong that our alleged friends took our citizens hostage . . . the deep deep thoughts of #blueanongE/#neocongE
I don't know much about Abbas but I thought he was seeking a peaceful, Palestinian solution. What's this about him being a Hamas facilitator?
He's the President of the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian State and he's knowingly allowed Hamas to grow, prosper and get military aid from places like Iran.
That's a facilitator in every form.
2) any minuscule power he has derived from Israel, they even collect his taxes and then sometimes give the Palestinians some of them
3) he has less power over Gaza than Israel
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 30, 2023, 10:20:58 PM
A terrorist state facilitator apologist
Post by: Kat Kid on October 31, 2023, 07:28:37 AM
Hamas killed the Fatah leadership after Bush/Trump neo-con demon Eliot Abrams tried to arm them after the election 17 years ago.
What is Abbas supposed to do to govern Gaza? Seriously, explain that one.
Post by: wetwillie on October 31, 2023, 07:29:55 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 08:46:49 AM
What in the world can Fatah and Abbas do about Gaza?
Hamas killed the Fatah leadership after Bush/Trump neo-con demon Eliot Abrams tried to arm them after the election 17 years ago.
What is Abbas supposed to do to govern Gaza? Seriously, explain that one.
First of all, your boy Pedo pumped over $100 million dollars into the place (wants to send more) even though back channel State communications (obtained by FOIA) show that there can be no guarantees that some of the funds will not end up in the hands of Hamas. So that right there should tell you all you need to know, friend.
Plus, LOL at digging back 17 years ago at this point . . . when we know your boys have been shipping arms all over the globe to every POS terrorist group imaginable and it even got a U.S. ambassador killed and they ended up having CIA backed terrorists in Syria, fighting DOD backed terrorists in Syria.
Post by: Kat Kid on October 31, 2023, 10:41:20 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 12:04:43 PM
Whether that was purposeful or unavoidable is in the eye of the beholder.
In regards to these latest attacks, Abbas has been tepid in condemnation, and that's being extremely generous. Abbas has completely melted when his ranks have criticized his very meek condemnation of Hamas' actions.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on October 31, 2023, 12:41:37 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on October 31, 2023, 01:45:21 PM
you see KK he's actually so ineffective that he's incredibly effective. try to keep upThere’s a war and his people are being overrun and bombed into the Stone Age.
Very effective, tho (BAC)
Post by: Kat Kid on November 02, 2023, 09:25:57 AM
West Bank Palestinianslive in fear of
settler attacks
Israel’s war on Hamas in Gaza has violent repercussions in
the occupied territory
Empty streets in Huwara, a Palestinian town where fear of settler violence has left it looking like a ghost town © Ayman Oghanna /FT
Gunfights erupt every few hours, and the Israeli military has had to rely on air support for the first
time in years to buttress its ground incursions in refugee camps, where an active black market for
weapons has gone into overdrive, according to one arms smuggler.
Israel launched an aerial and ground offensive into Gaza in response to Hamas’s devastating
October 7 attack on Israeli towns and military posts, which Israeli officials say killed 1,400 people.
It was the deadliest attack in Israel’s history and traumatised and enraged the nation. More than
8,800 people have been killed in the bombardment of Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas,
according to Palestinian officials.
At least 125 Palestinians have also been killed in the West Bank by the Israeli army and armed
settlers in the weeks since, according to data from local health authorities and the UN. Nearly
1,000 Palestinians have been forced from their villages by armed settlers, mostly in a wide swath of
land dubbed Area C where the Israeli army has direct authority.
The tightened restrictions have triggered large protests, drawing several thousand people. But the
visible presence of Israeli soldiers has kept many at home out of fear.
“They’ve put us in a pressure cooker and lit a fire under us,” said Jamal, 28, who lost his job as a
pharmacist in Jerusalem because he has been unable to leave the West Bank.
At the same time, armed settlers have stepped up their assaults on Palestinians, especially those in
remote villages. The EU on Wednesday referred to these assaults as “settler terrorism”, asking
Israel to rein them in.
UN data shows that assaults have doubled since the Hamas attack, and human rights groups such
as Israel’s Yesh Din have documented a rise in cases where Israeli soldiers — including settlers who
have been called up for reserve duty — either stood by, or have intervened only to aid the settlers.
“The settlers already know they have impunity as civilians, now they have it as soldiers too,” said
Yahav Erez, the international advocacy co-ordinator at Yesh Din, noting how very few cases of
settler or soldier violence were investigated, let alone prosecuted.
Yesh Din said it could identify one single Israeli who had been questioned for attacks on
Palestinians — an arrest that came the day after US president Joe Biden said extremist settlers
“have to be held to account”.
Meanwhile, 1,512 Palestinians have been arrested since October 7, according to prisons data given
to Hamoked, an Israeli nongovernment organisation. More than 700 are being held without
charges.
The settlers gleefully share videos of assaults on Telegram channels with tens of thousands of
subscribers. Abu Hassan’s beating was photographed by his attackers, and in another video from
Hebron this week, men in Israeli military uniforms were heard laughing as they beat, bound and
blindfolded Palestinian men, several of them stripped naked.
As one of them bent over to kick a Palestinian, he could be seen wearing the broad knitted kippa
favoured by religious nationalist settlers. The Israeli military said that “the conduct of the force
that emerges from the footage is deplorable and does not comply with the army’s orders”, and that
it was investigating the incident.
Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Richard Hecht did not respond to detailed queries seeking
comment on several other incidents. He had earlier stressed that the “IDF is the sovereign in Judea
and Samaria”, using the Israeli expression for the occupied West Bank. As sovereign, the IDF is
obliged by international and Israeli law to protect civilians, including Palestinians.
The IDF has also reported several violent incidents against settlers, including stabbings, car
ramming and attacks, including an IED, on Israeli soldiers and border police in their incursions
into Palestinian cities. In the occupied West Bank, one Israeli soldier has been killed since October
7.
On Thursday, an Israeli man driving in the West Bank was shot and
killed by an unidentified gunman, police said. Three Palestinians were
shot and killed by the IDF in separate locations in the West Bank, said
local health officials.
The closures and restrictions have further depressed the West Bank’s economy. On the highway to
Nablus, the normally vibrant market town of Huwara is deserted, its streets taken over by stray
dogs and Israeli soldiers. On the walls, posters have been plastered with a picture of a lion, quoting
Talmudic scripture that Israelis have long used to justify pre-emptive killing: “Rise Up and Kill
First”.
Moves by Israel’s far-right finance minister, a settler himself, to stop the transfer of about $500mn
to the Palestinian Authority, which administers the West Bank, will deliver a further economic hit.
Israel collects the money from customs and other taxes on behalf of the PA, which uses the funds to
pay salaries and run its limited administration.
“We [will not] transfer money to this despicable enemy,” Bezalel Smotrich said, referring to the PA,
a rival to Hamas.
Cutting funds to the PA, choking the economy and the forced displacement of Palestinians, in
addition to settlers stopping Palestinians from the annual olive harvest in October, creates an
explosive situation in the West Bank, warn international observers and Palestinians.
“The West Bank is not going to remain calm at all — they are dividing us between the cities, the
refugee camps and the villages,” said Jamal Tirawi, a one-time militant convicted of orchestrating a
suicide bombing, and now a Palestinian politician with influence over the refugee camps. “We’re
witnessing a new era here — the settlers see a chance to end the whole Palestinian project, to clip
both wings of Palestinians, one in Gaza, and the other in the West Bank.”
The surge in violence has left Abdel Hakim Wadi, 52, mourning the loss of his brother and nephew.
On October 11, after armed settlers shot four people in his village of Qusra, his brother Ibrahim and
26-year-old Ahmed decided to help with the funeral.
Abdel Hakim Wadi in his home in the Palestinian village of Qusra © Ayman Oghanna /FT
Both were scions of a proud political family, with photographs of their meetings with Jordan’s King
Abdullah and Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas in their living rooms. Ibrahim was a chemist,
and Ahmed, an avid traveller and law student.
They went to a nearby hospital in a small convoy, including ambulances to carry the dead, hoping
to avoid the settlers living nearby on land confiscated from Qusra village. On their way back, said
Wadi, they were asked by an Israeli military liaison to change their route.
They drove straight into an ambush, Wadi said, with the settlers blocking the road and burning
tyres. Rifle and pistol fire came from a grove of olive trees nearby. “They were screaming, burn the
ambulance, burn the bodies,” he said.
Dashcam footage at the chaotic scene showed Israeli soldiers firing near the Palestinians, as Wadi
said his brother tried to create a path for the ambulances. He turned around to see Ibrahim
crumple from a gunshot wound. His nephew ran for his car but was shot dead before he reached it.
“It was all over in seconds,” Wadi said, his voice trailing off. “I don’t even support Hamas, and this
is what they’ve done to me.”
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on November 06, 2023, 03:00:07 PM
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dispatch-podcast/id1493229344?i=1000633817792http://
Post by: wetwillie on November 06, 2023, 03:13:04 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on November 06, 2023, 03:18:50 PM
Maybe next time, so, soon
Post by: wetwillie on November 06, 2023, 03:26:11 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on November 07, 2023, 06:10:43 AM
https://twitter.com/a_newsman/status/1721515458212327655?s=46&t=-jwPwnR3rKHM9sk9hA7h8g
Post by: bucket on November 07, 2023, 12:17:18 PM
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on November 07, 2023, 01:39:22 PM
I thought hezbollah was going to open up a two front war on Israel if they sent troops into Gaza? Maybe it just takes time.The Hezbollah grand poobah's speech was basically "we celebrate Hamas killing Jews and we could unleash our full wrath against the Zionist Oppressor but we aren't going to do anything different right now." The podcast also brought up the question of "what was Hamas' plan for October 8?" Provoking Israel to generate more death and agony for the Palestinians is a huge victory for Hamas but were they trying to accomplish some sort of larger strategic goal?
Post by: wetwillie on November 07, 2023, 01:53:37 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on November 07, 2023, 02:02:38 PM
Well israel went from almost signing a peace agreement with Saudi, to Saudi hosting the Iranian President in Riyadh to work together on the Gaza issue.I thought hezbollah was going to open up a two front war on Israel if they sent troops into Gaza? Maybe it just takes time.The Hezbollah grand poobah's speech was basically "we celebrate Hamas killing Jews and we could unleash our full wrath against the Zionist Oppressor but we aren't going to do anything different right now." The podcast also brought up the question of "what was Hamas' plan for October 8?" Provoking Israel to generate more death and agony for the Palestinians is a huge victory for Hamas but were they trying to accomplish some sort of larger strategic goal?
Meanwhile Israel has killed 4,000 children, has tried to appeal to its allies to force Gazans to leave Gaza through the Rafa gate and has announced that they will occupy Gaza after the war is over, which provides Hamas an occupying force to target.
I would say it has basically gone better than Hamas could have possibly hoped for.
Post by: Spracne on November 07, 2023, 02:08:09 PM
Well israel went from almost signing a peace agreement with Saudi, to Saudi hosting the Iranian President in Riyadh to work together on the Gaza issue.I thought hezbollah was going to open up a two front war on Israel if they sent troops into Gaza? Maybe it just takes time.The Hezbollah grand poobah's speech was basically "we celebrate Hamas killing Jews and we could unleash our full wrath against the Zionist Oppressor but we aren't going to do anything different right now." The podcast also brought up the question of "what was Hamas' plan for October 8?" Provoking Israel to generate more death and agony for the Palestinians is a huge victory for Hamas but were they trying to accomplish some sort of larger strategic goal?
Meanwhile Israel has killed 4,000 children, has tried to appeal to its allies to force Gazans to leave Gaza through the Rafa gate and has announced that they will occupy Gaza after the war is over, which provides Hamas an occupying force to target.
I would say it has basically gone better than Hamas could have possibly hoped for.
A really mumped up situation, to be sure.
Post by: MakeItRain on November 07, 2023, 02:31:04 PM
team Israel
I mean, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but at the very least I hope that was very uncomfortable to type and you thought twice about doing it
Post by: Cire on November 07, 2023, 02:41:34 PM
Well israel went from almost signing a peace agreement with Saudi, to Saudi hosting the Iranian President in Riyadh to work together on the Gaza issue.I thought hezbollah was going to open up a two front war on Israel if they sent troops into Gaza? Maybe it just takes time.The Hezbollah grand poobah's speech was basically "we celebrate Hamas killing Jews and we could unleash our full wrath against the Zionist Oppressor but we aren't going to do anything different right now." The podcast also brought up the question of "what was Hamas' plan for October 8?" Provoking Israel to generate more death and agony for the Palestinians is a huge victory for Hamas but were they trying to accomplish some sort of larger strategic goal?
Meanwhile Israel has killed 4,000 children, has tried to appeal to its allies to force Gazans to leave Gaza through the Rafa gate and has announced that they will occupy Gaza after the war is over, which provides Hamas an occupying force to target.
I would say it has basically gone better than Hamas could have possibly hoped for.
Can't find it now but read a twitter historian thread about the psychology of hamas and others who do terrible things to advance a "cause" and essentially drawing the conclusion that Hamas believes that they needed a lighting strike to get things going b
cause the last 20+ years have gotten zero results. The belief is that, "we'll be dead, but our grandchildren/ancestors will have a chance if we do this" "if we don't, they'll live and die like us". They believe their attack on Oct 7 is the "shot heard round the world" for their people.
Post by: Fedor on November 07, 2023, 03:53:09 PM
Where do these casualty numbers come from? Are there observers on the ground in Gaza? The UN?Well israel went from almost signing a peace agreement with Saudi, to Saudi hosting the Iranian President in Riyadh to work together on the Gaza issue.I thought hezbollah was going to open up a two front war on Israel if they sent troops into Gaza? Maybe it just takes time.The Hezbollah grand poobah's speech was basically "we celebrate Hamas killing Jews and we could unleash our full wrath against the Zionist Oppressor but we aren't going to do anything different right now." The podcast also brought up the question of "what was Hamas' plan for October 8?" Provoking Israel to generate more death and agony for the Palestinians is a huge victory for Hamas but were they trying to accomplish some sort of larger strategic goal?
Meanwhile Israel has killed 4,000 children, has tried to appeal to its allies to force Gazans to leave Gaza through the Rafa gate and has announced that they will occupy Gaza after the war is over, which provides Hamas an occupying force to target.
I would say it has basically gone better than Hamas could have possibly hoped for.
Post by: sys on November 07, 2023, 04:40:15 PM
Where do these casualty numbers come from? Are there observers on the ground in Gaza? The UN?Well israel went from almost signing a peace agreement with Saudi, to Saudi hosting the Iranian President in Riyadh to work together on the Gaza issue.I thought hezbollah was going to open up a two front war on Israel if they sent troops into Gaza? Maybe it just takes time.The Hezbollah grand poobah's speech was basically "we celebrate Hamas killing Jews and we could unleash our full wrath against the Zionist Oppressor but we aren't going to do anything different right now." The podcast also brought up the question of "what was Hamas' plan for October 8?" Provoking Israel to generate more death and agony for the Palestinians is a huge victory for Hamas but were they trying to accomplish some sort of larger strategic goal?
Meanwhile Israel has killed 4,000 children, has tried to appeal to its allies to force Gazans to leave Gaza through the Rafa gate and has announced that they will occupy Gaza after the war is over, which provides Hamas an occupying force to target.
I would say it has basically gone better than Hamas could have possibly hoped for.
they come from hamas.
i personally wouldn't trust their numbers an enormous amount, but they're probably in the ballpark and much better than the numbers the un would or could produce. i would absolutely bet every penny i own, for example, that the hamas count of civilian causalities in gaza is closer to the real number than the un number is for civilian causalities in ukraine.
Post by: wetwillie on November 07, 2023, 04:47:42 PM
Post by: sys on November 07, 2023, 04:49:59 PM
Probably should stick to researching appliances imo
i already regret posting in this thread.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on November 07, 2023, 04:53:06 PM
team Israel
I mean, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but at the very least I hope that was very uncomfortable to type and you thought twice about doing it
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Jfc, unbelievable but expected. Yes bucket, it's not too late to join the goEMAW anti-Semitic crowd. Why wouldn't you back a terrorist organization that killed innocent women and children and still practices Sharia law still? They would also kill you if you're gay, trans or LBGTQ. Nothing wrong with that kind of thinking to our ol' pal MIgot. :flush: (ftp://:flush:)
Oh yeah, they still have American hostages they continue to try and barter with. Awesome people who were wronged by the Jews!!!
Post by: bucket on November 07, 2023, 06:32:47 PM
team Israel
I mean, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but at the very least I hope that was very uncomfortable to type and you thought twice about doing it
Ya, it crossed my mind that it might come off insensitive but I was in a rush today and rather than take the time it deserved I just posted what came to mind first and moved on to my next task. I had considered posting the axios article which provided casualty numbers in here over the past day for the reason stated in my post. I refrained until today when something prompted me to post. It’s been stated how hamas militants are included in those casualty numbers but that’s still a much larger number than I was expecting. Also brings to mind that Israel could just be conditioning the next army of terrorists.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on November 07, 2023, 09:13:33 PM
team Israel
I mean, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but at the very least I hope that was very uncomfortable to type and you thought twice about doing it
Ya, it crossed my mind that it might come off insensitive but I was in a rush today and rather than take the time it deserved I just posted what came to mind first and moved on to my next task. I had considered posting the axios article which provided casualty numbers in here over the past day for the reason stated in my post. I refrained until today when something prompted me to post. It’s been stated how hamas militants are included in those casualty numbers but that’s still a much larger number than I was expecting. Also brings to mind that Israel could just be conditioning the next army of terrorists.
:lol: (ftp://:lol:) Yes... yes... the jew hate force is strong with you.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on November 08, 2023, 08:24:17 AM
Meanwhile a legion of Arab Nations continue to reject the concept of taking in Palestenian refugee's (while they've pumped billions into Hamas over the years . . . money originally intended for humanitarian and public infrastructure efforts, but somehow helped make Hamas leadership billionaires. The UkgroGrift is a little jelly)
Post by: Kat Kid on November 08, 2023, 10:31:21 AM
Net to Pedo Pete - Piss Off Old Man
Meanwhile a legion of Arab Nations continue to reject the concept of taking in Palestenian refugee's (while they've pumped billions into Hamas over the years . . . money originally intended for humanitarian and public infrastructure efforts, but somehow helped make Hamas leadership billionaires. The UkgroGrift is a little jelly)
Does Israel have the right to kick Gazans out of Gaza? To take Gazan territory? The Gazans don't want to leave, but are being forced to re-locate. What are you talking about?
Post by: Kat Kid on November 08, 2023, 11:45:00 AM
Worth remembering in the US after 9/11 Bush's approval rating was like 90%. Even with the Presidential Daily Briefings on "Bin Ladin determined to strike" and the specifics about planes being hijacked, I think it is fair to say that the US should not have been quite as ready for 9/11 as Israel should have been for an attack from Hamas, but not 60%+ approval points better.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231104-only-27-of-israelis-believe-netanyahu-is-suitable-to-head-government/
Post by: wetwillie on November 08, 2023, 12:05:35 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on November 08, 2023, 03:14:53 PM
Net to Pedo Pete - Piss Off Old Man
Meanwhile a legion of Arab Nations continue to reject the concept of taking in Palestenian refugee's (while they've pumped billions into Hamas over the years . . . money originally intended for humanitarian and public infrastructure efforts, but somehow helped make Hamas leadership billionaires. The UkgroGrift is a little jelly)
Does Israel have the right to kick Gazans out of Gaza? To take Gazan territory? The Gazans don't want to leave, but are being forced to re-locate. What are you talking about?
Net told your boy Pedo Pete no cease fire, and Hamas doesn't build infrastructure with the money that get from Arab nations that don't want them. They build tunnels, bunkers, buy weapons and enrich themselves and then hide behind Palestinian civilians.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on November 08, 2023, 04:07:21 PM
Net to Pedo Pete - Piss Off Old Man
Meanwhile a legion of Arab Nations continue to reject the concept of taking in Palestenian refugee's (while they've pumped billions into Hamas over the years . . . money originally intended for humanitarian and public infrastructure efforts, but somehow helped make Hamas leadership billionaires. The UkgroGrift is a little jelly)
Does Israel have the right to kick Gazans out of Gaza? To take Gazan territory? The Gazans don't want to leave, but are being forced to re-locate. What are you talking about?
Net told your boy Pedo Pete no cease fire, and Hamas doesn't build infrastructure with the money that get from Arab nations that don't want them. They build tunnels, bunkers, buy weapons and enrich themselves and then hide behind Palestinian civilians.
good grief how does hamas continue to remain in any kind of power? and don't even try to tell me there hasn't been an election since like 2006 because i won't believe you.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on November 10, 2023, 02:57:17 PM
https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1722642183042261496?s=20
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on November 10, 2023, 03:08:12 PM
Post by: wetwillie on November 10, 2023, 03:31:19 PM
Yeah . . .
https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1722642183042261496?s=20
Oh that's the sea everyone is making a fuss about
Post by: sonofdaxjones on November 10, 2023, 03:33:30 PM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
Why do you think they're my team? Your boy's state department is in total disarray relative to his policies on this matter.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on November 10, 2023, 10:28:31 PM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Hey bud, YOUR team still has hostages and will do the same thing to those crazy Jews down the road... You are such a sanctimonious bitch.
Post by: Spracne on November 10, 2023, 10:43:43 PM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Hey bud, YOUR team still has hostages and will do the same thing to those crazy Jews down the road... You are such a sanctimonious bitch.
That's very rude, but leave the daxing to dax.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on November 10, 2023, 11:01:35 PM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Hey bud, YOUR team still has hostages and will do the same thing to those crazy Jews down the road... You are such a sanctimonious bitch.
That's very rude, but leave the daxing to dax.
How is it rude? So many here want to blame Israel for killing innocent soles when they started this bullshit. Do we care about the innocent civilians that have died In Ukraine? That doesn't seem to be big talking point these days? And how about all the kids in Russia that will grow up with no dad? Only good Russian is a dead one eh? Jump on that sanctimonious train Spracs...
Post by: Spracne on November 10, 2023, 11:10:48 PM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Hey bud, YOUR team still has hostages and will do the same thing to those crazy Jews down the road... You are such a sanctimonious bitch.
That's very rude, but leave the daxing to dax.
How is it rude? So many here want to blame Israel for killing innocent soles when they started this bullshit. Do we care about the innocent civilians that have died In Ukraine? That doesn't seem to be big talking point these days? And how about all the kids in Russia that will grow up with no dad? Only good Russian is a dead one eh? Jump on that sanctimonious train Spracs...
Um, no? Every innocent death is a tragedy. I grieve for the innocent Israelis who lost their lives (or "soles") as a result of a terrorist attack. I grieve for the innocent Palestinian civilians who are hand-waved away as collateral damage. I grieve for the innocent Ukrainian citizens. And yes, I even grieve for the poor rural Russians who are conscripted into the meat grinder.
Israel has the capacity to defend itself. And it has our help. I just don't want to get pulled into a hot war because someone's being overzealous.
And let's be honest, this domestic rhetoric that you're displaying is because conservative political operatives see this as a cudgel they can use against the Biden administration, and you gladly slurp it up. In reality, it's a very complex situation with no easy answer.
Post by: steve dave on November 10, 2023, 11:29:07 PM
https://twitter.com/dramaticirony/status/1723189081033564281
Post by: I_have_purplewood on November 11, 2023, 11:01:57 AM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Hey bud, YOUR team still has hostages and will do the same thing to those crazy Jews down the road... You are such a sanctimonious bitch.
That's very rude, but leave the daxing to dax.
How is it rude? So many here want to blame Israel for killing innocent soles when they started this bullshit. Do we care about the innocent civilians that have died In Ukraine? That doesn't seem to be big talking point these days? And how about all the kids in Russia that will grow up with no dad? Only good Russian is a dead one eh? Jump on that sanctimonious train Spracs...
Um, no? Every innocent death is a tragedy. I grieve for the innocent Israelis who lost their lives (or "soles") as a result of a terrorist attack. I grieve for the innocent Palestinian civilians who are hand-waved away as collateral damage. I grieve for the innocent Ukrainian citizens. And yes, I even grieve for the poor rural Russians who are conscripted into the meat grinder.
Israel has the capacity to defend itself. And it has our help. I just don't want to get pulled into a hot war because someone's being overzealous.
And let's be honest, this domestic rhetoric that you're displaying is because conservative political operatives see this as a cudgel they can use against the Biden administration, and you gladly slurp it up. In reality, it's a very complex situation with no easy answer.
I agree with your first two paragraphs and have stated that in earlier posts as well as stating how complex the situation is. There are many on here who think otherwise and you know it.
Your last paragraph is complete bullshit though. I watch all networks to try and remain even keeled on most events. If anyone is slurping up garbage it's the left that are allowing innocent Jewish students and families be tormented here in America because we have congressmen and women who spew pure hate.
Post by: CNS on November 11, 2023, 01:48:04 PM
Post by: Trim on November 11, 2023, 02:40:46 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on November 11, 2023, 05:04:50 PM
sounds like the ethnic cleansing is going according to plan. Grats on your team winning, dax!
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). Hey bud, YOUR team still has hostages and will do the same thing to those crazy Jews down the road... You are such a sanctimonious bitch.
That's very rude, but leave the daxing to dax.
How is it rude? So many here want to blame Israel for killing innocent soles when they started this bullshit. Do we care about the innocent civilians that have died In Ukraine? That doesn't seem to be big talking point these days? And how about all the kids in Russia that will grow up with no dad? Only good Russian is a dead one eh? Jump on that sanctimonious train Spracs...
I’d ask if you realize that collective punishment is uhhhh, you know, a war crime…but Israel committing war crimes doesn’t seem to phase you in the slightest. Galvanizes your resolve, if anything
Post by: star seed 7 on November 11, 2023, 06:17:39 PM
Got a haircut today. Sat in the chair and the lady kicks off the talk with, “what’s going on with isreal? Do you know what’s going on? I have a bunch of FB friends who are really mad about it!”.
:lol:
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on November 15, 2023, 04:41:59 PM
https://twitter.com/classicsgroyp/status/1724433875047256079?s=20
Post by: MakeItRain on November 23, 2023, 11:10:14 AM
https://twitter.com/hillharper/status/1727391882706378781
Post by: MakeItRain on December 05, 2023, 05:55:35 PM
311 people voting for this bill is a dark moment in the history of this country. This is the perfect confluence of Muslim hate and lobbyist influence. How many of the people who voted yes on this have been guilty of actual antisemitism within the last couple of weeks?
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1731848800233234797
Post by: MakeItRain on December 05, 2023, 05:57:28 PM
https://twitter.com/dmmittelman/status/1732159240863649905
Post by: Spracne on December 05, 2023, 07:46:29 PM
What the holy eff are we doing here? This is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe this is the only Republican in the house who voted no on this.
311 people voting for this bill is a dark moment in the history of this country. This is the perfect confluence of Muslim hate and lobbyist influence. How many of the people who voted yes on this have been guilty of actual antisemitism within the last couple of weeks?
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1731848800233234797
Agree. It feels really gross and exploitative.
Post by: nicname on December 05, 2023, 08:22:46 PM
What the holy eff are we doing here? This is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe this is the only Republican in the house who voted no on this.
311 people voting for this bill is a dark moment in the history of this country. This is the perfect confluence of Muslim hate and lobbyist influence. How many of the people who voted yes on this have been guilty of actual antisemitism within the last couple of weeks?
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1731848800233234797
Agree. It feels really gross and exploitative.
Aww, I love you guys.
Srsly tho, it’s almost unfathomable to write that “into law.”
Very gross.
Post by: wetwillie on December 05, 2023, 08:25:29 PM
Post by: bucket on December 05, 2023, 08:42:36 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on December 05, 2023, 08:57:32 PM
Post by: Pete on December 11, 2023, 08:14:29 AM
This has bolstered my support for Israel I think. Very strong Israel lean at this point.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 11, 2023, 08:20:49 AM
As we just saw in the UN. Facilitating war across all sides and fronts.
#frown
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Post by: Rage Against the McKee on December 11, 2023, 08:21:52 AM
So the far left hates Israel, and the far right hates Israel.
This has bolstered my support for Israel I think. Very strong Israel lean at this point.
I view them similarly to Russia.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 11, 2023, 08:24:40 AM
So the far left hates Israel, and the far right hates Israel.Yes, the bastion of anti Israel in the world is the “far right” which in this case consists of hardcore theocratic Islamists (who #blueanon political and thought leaders facilitate across the globe)
This has bolstered my support for Israel I think. Very strong Israel lean at this point.
. . . and in the halls of multi generational #blueanon strongholds
Post by: Pete on December 11, 2023, 09:18:55 AM
The Pedo Pete administration working hard to keep the onslaught going in GazaGotcha, I have you down as “far right.”
As we just saw in the UN. Facilitating war across all sides and fronts.
#frown
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 11, 2023, 09:21:18 AM
The Pedo Pete administration working hard to keep the onslaught going in GazaGotcha, I have you down as “far right.”
As we just saw in the UN. Facilitating war across all sides and fronts.
#frown
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That doesn't make any sense at all.
Cease fires are a "far right" ideal . . . . Pete
Post by: Pete on December 15, 2023, 08:34:55 AM
Quote
But he conceded that “getting to the two-state solution” had been made “in many ways more difficult by what happened on October 7,” when Hamas launched deadly attacks on Israeli civilians.
“Obviously ordinary Israelis think: ‘how can we ever have a two-state solution if part of the state or the state is run by these people?” Cameron said of Hamas.
Asked how there there could be peace without a Palestinian state, Hotovely had told Sky News: “Israel knows today, and the world should know now that the Palestinians never wanted to have a state next to Israel. They want to have a state from the river to the sea. They are saying it loud and clear.”
Post by: Pete on December 15, 2023, 08:45:22 AM
Israel would fit seventeen times inside Montana's border. Montana is 147,040 square miles. Israel is 8,630. Not much bigger than Montana’s largest county, Beaverhead County, which has 5,542.7 square miles of land area
Alaska would obviously be the least problematic for most Americans.
Post by: Kat Kid on December 16, 2023, 09:34:42 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on December 16, 2023, 11:18:15 PM
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/idf-says-hostages-it-killed-were-bare-chested-and-waving-white-flag
At least this was the first and only time the IDF slaughtered unarmed civilians who pose no military threat to them whatsoever, and I think it paints them in an unfair light bc the one and only time they do that, it happens to be Israeli hostages and not Palestinian women and children
Post by: Pete on December 17, 2023, 08:40:08 AM
Post by: steve dave on December 17, 2023, 08:41:36 AM
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Post by: Kat Kid on December 18, 2023, 11:20:47 AM
Quote
During a week-long ceasefire at the end of November, Hamas released 100 hostages, and in return 240 Palestinian women and children were freed from Israeli jails. Israel has rescued one hostage, killed three, and another six have been confirmed by Israeli officials as having died in captivity. A total of 119 soldiers have been killed in the 10-week-old war.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/17/israeli-airstrikes-kill-dozens-gaza-calls-for-ceasefire-hostage-talks-grow-public-anger-hostages (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/17/israeli-airstrikes-kill-dozens-gaza-calls-for-ceasefire-hostage-talks-grow-public-anger-hostages)
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on December 18, 2023, 11:46:10 AM
Post by: wetwillie on December 18, 2023, 12:03:38 PM
You guys can say what you want about the IDF, but at least they aren't strapping bombs and a go-pro onto 15 yr old Palestinian kids and making them go check out tunnels (where, presumably, if they were to encounter any living thing at all the IDF soldier watching the go pro feed will immediately yell HAMAS like YAHTZEE and hit the detonator no questions asked). At least they aren't doing that thing I just described.
I had not heard about that, where can I read about that?
Post by: sys on December 18, 2023, 12:30:59 PM
Post by: wetwillie on December 18, 2023, 12:42:21 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on December 18, 2023, 04:14:16 PM
You guys can say what you want about the IDF, but at least they aren't strapping bombs and a go-pro onto 15 yr old Palestinian kids and making them go check out tunnels (where, presumably, if they were to encounter any living thing at all the IDF soldier watching the go pro feed will immediately yell HAMAS like YAHTZEE and hit the detonator no questions asked). At least they aren't doing that thing I just described.
I had not heard about that, where can I read about that?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-soldiers-hamas-tunnel-bombs-sent
Post by: wetwillie on December 18, 2023, 04:20:46 PM
Post by: Pete on December 18, 2023, 04:37:48 PM
Post by: catastrophe on December 18, 2023, 06:03:44 PM
You guys can say what you want about the IDF, but at least they aren't strapping bombs and a go-pro onto 15 yr old Palestinian kids and making them go check out tunnels (where, presumably, if they were to encounter any living thing at all the IDF soldier watching the go pro feed will immediately yell HAMAS like YAHTZEE and hit the detonator no questions asked). At least they aren't doing that thing I just described.That’s a hell of a presumably.
Post by: dal9 on December 20, 2023, 07:38:21 PM
Yeah, I am not even going to click on that.
i made the mistake of clicking on it and now i'm pretty sure i'm on an fbi watchlist
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 21, 2023, 08:32:56 AM
https://twitter.com/citizenfreepres/status/1737632361066496219?s=46&t=-jwPwnR3rKHM9sk9hA7h8g
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Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 21, 2023, 08:35:40 AM
Post by: wetwillie on December 21, 2023, 10:37:05 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 21, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
#armchair neocons/#blueanoneocon/#neocongE were all saying the same thing back in October.
#armchairneocons/#neocongE got all :curse: :curse: :curse: about the FOIA'd internal emails from State aka the Clown Car (documented on this blog) discussing how the U.S. could not be sure that aid to Gaza would be used strictly for humanitarian purposes and not siphoned off for Hamas.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 21, 2023, 01:11:09 PM
That's an AI deep fake
I mean, why wouldn't hamas want to please their patron on his bday?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 21, 2023, 01:30:02 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 21, 2023, 02:15:32 PM
Everything I don't like is . . . racist, a conspiracy theory, fascist (and now featuring) AI/Deep Fake (#blueanon/#blueanongE)
I don't think hamas/putin is a conspiracy theory. more like a love story
Post by: sonofdaxjones on December 21, 2023, 02:47:49 PM
Hamas thanks Pedo Pete for the fundingEverything I don't like is . . . racist, a conspiracy theory, fascist (and now featuring) AI/Deep Fake (#blueanon/#blueanongE)
I don't think hamas/putin is a conspiracy theory. more like a love story
Keeping in mind wherever Samantha and her minions show up. War usually follows. She’s positively Nulandesque
“In a letter to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) Administrator Samantha Power, the lawmakers stress that taxpayer funds sent to Gaza and the West Bank could inadvertently aid Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) such as Hamas and are seeking documents and information from USAID to ensure U.S.”
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Post by: Dugout DickStone on December 21, 2023, 03:06:51 PM
Hamas thanks Pedo Pete for the fundingEverything I don't like is . . . racist, a conspiracy theory, fascist (and now featuring) AI/Deep Fake (#blueanon/#blueanongE)
I don't think hamas/putin is a conspiracy theory. more like a love story
Keeping in mind wherever Samantha and her minions show up. War usually follows. She’s positively Nulandesque
“In a letter to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) Administrator Samantha Power, the lawmakers stress that taxpayer funds sent to Gaza and the West Bank could inadvertently aid Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) such as Hamas and are seeking documents and information from USAID to ensure U.S.”
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hamas didn't attack Israel as a bday gift to Dark Brandon. nice try
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 02, 2024, 07:26:42 PM
Your boy immediately took the Houthi’s off the terror list on day one and your boys state department sent millions to Gaza with virtually no guarantee that funds wouldn’t end up in the hands of HamasHamas thanks Pedo Pete for the fundingEverything I don't like is . . . racist, a conspiracy theory, fascist (and now featuring) AI/Deep Fake (#blueanon/#blueanongE)
I don't think hamas/putin is a conspiracy theory. more like a love story
Keeping in mind wherever Samantha and her minions show up. War usually follows. She’s positively Nulandesque
“In a letter to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) Administrator Samantha Power, the lawmakers stress that taxpayer funds sent to Gaza and the West Bank could inadvertently aid Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs) such as Hamas and are seeking documents and information from USAID to ensure U.S.”
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hamas didn't attack Israel as a bday gift to Dark Brandon. nice try
LMAO at DeflectoDug
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Post by: Pete on January 06, 2024, 01:08:42 PM
Certainly Israel was in a very, very difficult situation, but to go and make it an officially impossible situation was not the response I was expecting from Israel.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/visual-analysis-shows-60-gaza-now-evacuation-orders/story?id=106079156
How does any Israeli now expect anything less than total commitment from millions of ruined people to absolutely destroy Israel going forward? If I lived in Gaza, and my loved ones had been killed/maimed and my home destroyed, I would dedicate what is left of my life to destroying Israel. That’s how this works.
Serious question for Dax and KK…no gE'ing…what is the economic impact to the United States of losing Israel's influence in the Middle East? I feel close to being ready to turn off the money to Israel, but concerned that I may not appreciate the implications.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 09, 2024, 08:22:13 AM
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-israel-gaza-idf-reporting/
Post by: Pete on January 09, 2024, 02:19:51 PM
If you watch CNN, their Gaza coverage is vetted through the IDF :thumbsup:What is the possible downside to cutting off all support for Israel, in your opinion?
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-israel-gaza-idf-reporting/
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 09, 2024, 02:30:53 PM
But support must come with demands.
Everybody talks about Blinks trying to protect civilians. If so, he’s really really shitty at it, then again he’s a shitty ineffectual clown (except in making sure the military industrial complex gets there’s), so no surprise there.
Post by: Pete on January 09, 2024, 03:57:05 PM
The downside is that will likely be the end of the last (generally) secular democracy in the Middle East.OK, I am on the same page as you when it comes to demanding more of Israel. However, my question is whether we are really ready to turn our backs on Israel if they do not meet our demands? What would be the economic and strategic losses if we cut them off?
But support must come with demands.
Everybody talks about Blinks trying to protect civilians. If so, he’s really really shitty at it, then again he’s a shitty ineffectual clown (except in making sure the military industrial complex gets there’s), so no surprise there.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 09, 2024, 04:41:57 PM
You'll have a sophisticated indigenous arms industry fall into the hands of what will likely be not so good people and all the technology that goes with it, plus the nuclear weapons.
Post by: Pete on January 09, 2024, 05:48:20 PM
I suppose if you want you want Libya North in place of Israel and then you'll likely get lots of bad people on the border with Egypt and then you've got issues with controlling the Suez, and well . . . lots of not good things.That would be bad. Agree on that.
You'll have a sophisticated indigenous arms industry fall into the hands of what will likely be not so good people and all the technology that goes with it, plus the nuclear weapons.
Post by: star seed 7 on January 09, 2024, 05:51:24 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on January 09, 2024, 07:08:11 PM
#onbrand
Post by: Kat Kid on January 19, 2024, 09:43:31 AM
This is not the worst thing that the IDF has done, not the most egregious, not the worst or most outrageous thing a spokesperson has done but it is just such a great example of the work that the US does on behalf of Israel when we already have all the relevant information. What are we doing?
Here is another one that of all people TOM FRIEDMAN confronts Blinken with the asymmetry of the Israeli response, I'll leave it to all of you to evaluate if Blinken is being serious with his words, when our actions have been sending weapons to Israel and publicly defending them.
https://youtu.be/X9BS_pNK6vc?si=zWdCeYPPRPFAIKyQ&t=903 (https://youtu.be/X9BS_pNK6vc?si=zWdCeYPPRPFAIKyQ&t=903)
Lastly, the latest in the river to the sea discourse that was declared as "genocidal" language in many corners:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/)
Post by: Kat Kid on January 19, 2024, 10:29:05 AM
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d (https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d)
As for the other stated goals for the conflict:
1) destroying Hamas
2) returning the hostages
those aren't being achieved either:
Quote
A sharp divide in Israel’s war leadership has broken into the open after former military chief Gadi Eisenkot called for elections within months and said the government was not being truthful with the public about its offensive against Hamas.
A blunt television interview, in which Eisenkot also declined to say that he trusted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, marked a widening split over key questions such as how to secure the return of hostages held by the Palestinian militant group and planning for after the war.
Eisenkot, a centrist minister and observer to the country’s war cabinet, said in the interview aired on Thursday night: “It is necessary, within a period of months, to return the Israeli voter to the polls and hold elections in order to renew trust because right now there is no trust.”
As well as echoing a call from the opposition for snap elections, he added in the interview, which was recorded over recent weeks, that “we should say bravely that it is impossible to return the hostages alive in the near future without an agreement [with Hamas]”. He said Israel should consider halting the fighting for a “significant” period of time as part of any such deal.
The former military leader, whose 25-year-old reservist son was killed in battle in Gaza last month, said the release of the hostages should be the top priority, but it would not be achieved through military force alone and anyone who said otherwise was “selling fantasies” to the public.
-Financial Times
Post by: Kat Kid on January 31, 2024, 10:38:40 PM
let's go
Quote
There are several options for U.S. action on this issue, including:
Bilaterally recognizing the state of Palestine.
Not using its veto to block the UN Security Council from admitting Palestine as a full UN member state.
Encouraging other countries to recognize Palestine.
Post by: Pete on January 31, 2024, 10:53:15 PM
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/31/palestine-statehood-biden-israel-gaza-war (https://www.axios.com/2024/01/31/palestine-statehood-biden-israel-gaza-war)I’m sold. Count me in.
let's goQuoteThere are several options for U.S. action on this issue, including:
Bilaterally recognizing the state of Palestine.
Not using its veto to block the UN Security Council from admitting Palestine as a full UN member state.
Encouraging other countries to recognize Palestine.
Post by: wetwillie on January 31, 2024, 11:06:06 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on January 31, 2024, 11:33:13 PM
Is Hamas eradicated yet?
Well they tend to headquarter themselves in hospitals and amid women and children soooo...yeah, pretty much wiped out
Post by: Pete on February 01, 2024, 07:18:04 AM
Is Hamas eradicated yet?
Well they tend to headquarter themselves in hospitals and amid women and children soooo...yeah, pretty much wiped out
:lol:
Post by: wetwillie on February 01, 2024, 07:34:10 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on February 14, 2024, 11:13:31 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/14/world/middleeast/nasser-hospital-gaza-israel-evacuation.html
What is the end point? Is there anyone here that still supports this?
Post by: Cire on February 14, 2024, 11:30:33 AM
Another hospital is evacuated in Gaza where thousands of Gazans are sheltering.The point is to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth. And I don’t know how it’s not being condemned/sanctioned
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/14/world/middleeast/nasser-hospital-gaza-israel-evacuation.html
What is the end point? Is there anyone here that still supports this?
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Post by: LickNeckey on February 14, 2024, 12:08:13 PM
I think Russia is making themselves look bad all by themselves.
I saw McCain on the picture box this morning, and he actually made one good point. The U.S. should be flooring it on taking over as Natural Gas supplier to Europe.
found this gem when going through this thread today
Post by: Pete on February 19, 2024, 09:40:36 AM
I think Russia is making themselves look bad all by themselves.
I saw McCain on the picture box this morning, and he actually made one good point. The U.S. should be flooring it on taking over as Natural Gas supplier to Europe.
found this gem when going through this thread today
I agree with Dax. This is a good one for the thread about stuff we agree on.
Post by: LickNeckey on February 19, 2024, 10:25:50 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 19, 2024, 10:28:18 AM
I wonder which move favors Vlad Putin and Russia more . . .
I suppose when you pocket $3m plus laundered from oligarchs via the Moscow mayor's wife, things are expected of you . . .
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 19, 2024, 10:30:52 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 19, 2024, 10:32:45 AM
Damn, always a couple of laps down SMDH
. . . and the Euros were buying a crap ton of Vlad Putin's natural gas for years after Trump told them to stop (and still are)
I wonder which state is impacted the most by the Biden's admin recent decree . . . and I wonder why Biden is so mad at them.
Post by: Kat Kid on February 28, 2024, 10:01:03 AM
From the Financial Times today:
Quote
A nascent plan, brokered by Egypt, to allow Palestinian policemen to return to work without weapons or uniforms to guard the convoys has yet to bear fruit, said UNRWA’s Anderson.
“We have a mishmash of police basically trying to show up and help, at great risk to themselves,” he said.
Israel had dropped flyers in Rafah in Gaza this month with a photo of a destroyed Palestinian police car, which had been bombed by an Israeli war plane while guarding a food convoy on February 6. “Our message is clear; the Israeli security services will not allow the security apparatuses of Hamas to continue working,” the flyers said.
Post by: Pete on February 28, 2024, 10:24:05 AM
Post by: wetwillie on February 28, 2024, 11:51:21 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on February 28, 2024, 12:07:47 PM
Egypt seems very unwelcoming to the Palestinians. It’s as if they don’t really give a crap about the Palestinians and are really just on Team eff Israel.
I don't think Egypt should have to take refugees that Israel has already expelled once and is now trying to expel a second time.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 28, 2024, 12:09:06 PM
Little late now "adults in charge" :lol:
Post by: Spracne on February 28, 2024, 02:05:22 PM
Joe trying to get the Israeli's to not use U.S. weapons in Gaza and points beyond is just the :lol: :lol: :lol: ever.
Little late now "adults in charge" :lol:
And as ever, you remain a huge POS.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 28, 2024, 02:30:34 PM
The Israeli's have leveled almost the whole of Gaza.
Then the warmongering POS who you support and his merry band of #neocons, arrives on the scene months later, trying to get the Israeli's to limit what they're doing with weapons we supply them?
:lol: :lol: eff off
Post by: wetwillie on February 28, 2024, 02:45:37 PM
The Israeli's have leveled almost the whole of Gaza.
Oh?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 28, 2024, 02:53:12 PM
Not enough destruction for you WW??
Post by: Pete on February 28, 2024, 02:55:11 PM
That’s the thing about refugees. No one should have to take them.Egypt seems very unwelcoming to the Palestinians. It’s as if they don’t really give a crap about the Palestinians and are really just on Team eff Israel.
I don't think Egypt should have to take refugees that Israel has already expelled once and is now trying to expel a second time.
Post by: LickNeckey on February 28, 2024, 02:56:31 PM
Post by: wetwillie on February 28, 2024, 02:57:02 PM
60% of the buildings in Gaza have been destroyed, whole swaths of some areas are wiped out.
Not enough destruction for you WW??
I don't think that's an accurate figure Dax
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 28, 2024, 03:01:45 PM
Post by: wetwillie on February 28, 2024, 03:08:45 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 28, 2024, 03:12:19 PM
We've marked you down WW :thumbsup:
Post by: Pete on February 28, 2024, 03:20:27 PM
Post by: LickNeckey on February 28, 2024, 03:31:41 PM
continued settlement of the West Bank is the other side of the coin and in many ways equally problematic
Post by: CNS on February 28, 2024, 04:03:05 PM
the actions in Gaza are only 1/2 of the problem
continued settlement of the West Bank is the other side of the coin and in many ways equally problematic
I heard yesterday that Israel just gave the go ahead on an additional 3,300 houses to be built. To the uneducated outsider, it seems like Israel has had a slow-motion elimination of Palestine in action for a very long time and the Palestinians terrorists of late have made as excellent of a reason to hit the fast forward button Israel could ever ask for.
Post by: Pete on February 28, 2024, 04:09:52 PM
the actions in Gaza are only 1/2 of the problem
continued settlement of the West Bank is the other side of the coin and in many ways equally problematic
I heard yesterday that Israel just gave the go ahead on an additional 3,300 houses to be built. To the uneducated outsider, it seems like Israel has had a slow-motion elimination of Palestine in action for a very long time and the Palestinians terrorists of late have made as excellent of a reason to hit the fast forward button Israel could ever ask for.
I too am an uneducated outsider and that's sure what it looks like to me. Who do you think hates Palestinians more, Israel or Hamas? That's a tough one.
Post by: Spracne on February 28, 2024, 04:10:12 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on February 28, 2024, 04:22:02 PM
I favor a 3 part solution where Israel stops what they are doing, the neighbors take the refugees, and Israel pays the neighbors for their trouble.Good news!
Pete that is pretty much Israel’s plan
Bad news!
They are going to kill, maim, starve, make homeless, and detain a bunch more Gazans (mostly kids) before the last two steps happen.
Post by: CNS on February 28, 2024, 04:33:13 PM
Post by: Pete on February 28, 2024, 04:37:02 PM
Well, I don’t like THOSE aspects of the plan at all.I favor a 3 part solution where Israel stops what they are doing, the neighbors take the refugees, and Israel pays the neighbors for their trouble.Good news!
Pete that is pretty much Israel’s plan
Bad news!
They are going to kill, maim, starve, make homeless, and detain a bunch more Gazans (mostly kids) before the last two steps happen.
Post by: Pete on February 28, 2024, 04:38:17 PM
Post by: Kat Kid on February 28, 2024, 04:44:38 PM
Also, I doubt Israel is neighborly enough to pay for it.Yeah the third part won’t happen right away but Israel will pay over time some other if that really is their plan to expel all the Palestinians and ethnically cleanse Israel from the river to the sea, whether in money, blood or both.
Post by: wetwillie on February 28, 2024, 04:52:58 PM
Post by: LickNeckey on February 28, 2024, 05:13:09 PM
I'm actually kind of surprised and impressed that dax is willing to be so antisemitic.
is calling out the atrocities of a nation state antisemitic?
Post by: Spracne on February 28, 2024, 05:25:08 PM
I'm actually kind of surprised and impressed that dax is willing to be so antisemitic.
is calling out the atrocities of a nation state antisemitic?
Sometimes? It seems that way.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on February 28, 2024, 05:49:32 PM
One of the some people is our own #blogkaren.
No one is surprised.
Post by: LickNeckey on February 28, 2024, 06:04:13 PM
I'm actually kind of surprised and impressed that dax is willing to be so antisemitic.
is calling out the atrocities of a nation state antisemitic?
Sometimes? It seems that way.
Antisemitic's are generally critical of Israel but it is not anti-Semitic to be critical of Israel
Post by: Spracne on February 29, 2024, 01:51:46 AM
I'm actually kind of surprised and impressed that dax is willing to be so antisemitic.
is calling out the atrocities of a nation state antisemitic?
Sometimes? It seems that way.
Antisemitic's are generally critical of Israel but it is not anti-Semitic to be critical of Israel
I was digging dax, not you.
Post by: star seed 7 on February 29, 2024, 02:08:02 AM
Post by: Kat Kid on February 29, 2024, 11:18:59 AM
Well except for 1/4 of the Israeli population that aren't Jews
Oh yeah, I'm sure they will be fine.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on February 29, 2024, 01:59:48 PM
Bit of a callback to purplewood's(?) troll
:lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). I've learned my best trolling techniques from you btw.. :blush: (ftp://:blush:)
I am so happy for the callback! I've changed my mind. I think Ismail Haniyeh is one hell of a person and would be one of the best people to negotiate any type of deal or 2nd State! :jerk: (ftp://:jerk:)
Hey dumbass, they started this crap with barbaric acts and still have American hostages. Let's go ahead and do a treaty where they can reorganize and do the same thing they've done over the last several decades?
On top of that they are rough ridin' terrorists. They don't give a crap about women's rights and would kill you if you come close to leaning gay. I don't like innocent people getting killed but anyone who thinks they can make a deal and everything is fine?... It's not happening and is ludicrous.
Post by: LickNeckey on February 29, 2024, 07:13:28 PM
what do you see as a reasonable path forward
Post by: Pete on February 29, 2024, 07:20:49 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on February 29, 2024, 09:53:33 PM
honest question
what do you see as a reasonable path forward
Real world or pretend? May I ask you if you think that there is something that will actually work? It is a terrorist country that wants to kill all jews...
They have been war/hate for how long? Some of you actually think you know what is going on there? :lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:) Hamas are raising their kids to be terrorists and kill jews....awesome!
I would love for you or Cire or BAC to go on a mission to help the unfortunate Palestines in Hamas (not trying to an ass) to see first hand what is going on there?. You guys get to sit here in your white and entitled life and do nothing more than bitch about how bad it is on a chat board???. It's hilarious to me. I'm sure you feel better about yourselves tho? Fighting that good fight!!
And hey SS7, bring something to the table please? :lol: :lol: (ftp://:lol: :lol:). You will have zero opinion at all and will continue to stalk SODJ.
Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 01, 2024, 11:36:11 PM
Some of you want to preach and hang your hat on this crap huh? Maybe worry about something like our homeless here? There are atrocities all over the world and you want me to squirt some tears for a terrorist organization?
As a side note, please let me know how YOU would fix this situation in the Middle East. :lol: (ftp://:lol:)
Waiting on you SS7..
Post by: steve dave on March 02, 2024, 12:04:49 AM
Wow! Nothing at all? I can't say that I'm shocked? Here's a question for all of you Hamas loving people; Do you like that American jews are being ridiculed and tormented here in the good of the old USofA on a daily basis? Palestinians are protesting all over and calling out the jews in such a hateful way. Is that right?I’m just going to say one thing about this:
Some of you want to preach and hang your hat on this crap huh? Maybe worry about something like our homeless here? There are atrocities all over the world and you want me to squirt some tears for a terrorist organization?
As a side note, please let me know how YOU would fix this situation in the Middle East. :lol: (ftp://:lol:)
Waiting on you SS7..
What the actual eff are you talking about
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Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 02, 2024, 12:15:11 AM
Wow! Nothing at all? I can't say that I'm shocked? Here's a question for all of you Hamas loving people; Do you like that American jews are being ridiculed and tormented here in the good of the old USofA on a daily basis? Palestinians are protesting all over and calling out the jews in such a hateful way. Is that right?I’m just going to say one thing about this:
Some of you want to preach and hang your hat on this crap huh? Maybe worry about something like our homeless here? There are atrocities all over the world and you want me to squirt some tears for a terrorist organization?
As a side note, please let me know how YOU would fix this situation in the Middle East. :lol: (ftp://:lol:)
Waiting on you SS7..
What the actual eff are you talking about
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Wacky Dave ladies and gentlemen.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 02, 2024, 04:20:47 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 19, 2024, 09:51:05 PM
This week the crap show aka Blinks said that all Gaza residents face extreme food insecurity.
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Post by: LickNeckey on March 20, 2024, 02:06:27 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 20, 2024, 04:39:37 PM
Jared (Not the SOS) - World not on the cusp of WWIII, NATO (via a proxy) and Russia not at war, Gaza not a pile of ruble etc. etc.
Blinks (SOS) - World at the cusp of WWIII
Post by: LickNeckey on March 20, 2024, 04:50:27 PM
2. His recent commentary on the situation makes his inclusion in the conversation topical
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 20, 2024, 05:10:55 PM
:lol: :lol: Oh Lick
Post by: LickNeckey on March 20, 2024, 05:36:17 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 21, 2024, 07:44:02 AM
really good development potential their in the Gaza StripTap out accepted.
Blinks-harbinger of WWIII
Lick: It’s time to bring up Jared K because he said something
LMAO-Good ol DeflectoLick
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Post by: Pete on March 21, 2024, 09:42:24 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 25, 2024, 07:05:01 PM
The weapons train from the US will continue to flow.
Congrats #neocongE
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Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 25, 2024, 07:06:40 PM
Dax, in your opinion what is the best approach for Gaza going forward. Also, please do not reference any past events or policies.Two states
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Post by: Pete on March 25, 2024, 07:29:30 PM
I agreeDax, in your opinion what is the best approach for Gaza going forward. Also, please do not reference any past events or policies.Two states
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Post by: LickNeckey on March 25, 2024, 09:19:27 PM
team 2 state
Post by: Cire on March 25, 2024, 09:50:51 PM
TWO STATE
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Post by: wetwillie on March 25, 2024, 09:58:50 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 25, 2024, 10:03:26 PM
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Post by: star seed 7 on March 25, 2024, 10:41:46 PM
Unfortunately Lick’s boys and girls are all too happy to keep the genocide in Gaza going.
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Who is your anti-genocide vote going to?
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2024, 08:04:20 AM
You’re only asking this because you’re embarrassed by your boy as usual so time to deflect and attempt to change the subject. 1000% onbrandUnfortunately Lick’s boys and girls are all too happy to keep the genocide in Gaza going.
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Who is your anti-genocide vote going to?
Also because Trump said yesterday it’s time for Israel to end this and negotiate peace.
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Post by: LickNeckey on March 26, 2024, 08:07:26 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2024, 08:10:47 AM
Israel's far right and the Kush have some great ideas for the Gazan coastThat has nothing to do with the LOL’able “findings” of your guys administration.
Full DeflectoCon mode starting early from Lick
Congrats Lick and the rest of #neocongE
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Post by: LickNeckey on March 26, 2024, 08:13:46 AM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2024, 09:55:48 AM
The two state solution is a separate matter from your boy's administration determining that Israel isn't violating any international laws. When everyone with even a hint of a clue knows they're using food and starvation as a weapon.
Post by: michigancat on March 26, 2024, 02:46:19 PM
Post by: LickNeckey on March 26, 2024, 05:15:14 PM
this is not an endorsement of our current policy
but i will say i am encouraged that we seem to be finding a bit of backbone in seeking a ceasefire and providing reasonable aid (but could be much more robust in my opinion)
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2024, 05:29:16 PM
So was this plan a take it or leave it plan with no method of negotation or adders?
Interesting if so.
Then again, it's all rhetorical, they're not in charge the one's in charge seem to perfectly fine with the Israeli's using the starve them out method backed by U.S. weapons. :thumbsup:
Post by: michigancat on March 26, 2024, 06:07:41 PM
I've been told that everything is perfectly fine with the fundamentals of Gaza governance and it's just that pesky Hamas who keeps mucking it up for everyone.:
Who told you that
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 26, 2024, 06:43:58 PM
I've been told that everything is perfectly fine with the fundamentals of Gaza governance and it's just that pesky Hamas who keeps mucking it up for everyone.:
Who told you that
I believe it was KK when I brought up the notion of Gaza governance allowing Hamas to build a stronghold and grow.
Post by: michigancat on March 26, 2024, 07:02:16 PM
Not sure the context of this but Israel might be a factor too!!!!I've been told that everything is perfectly fine with the fundamentals of Gaza governance and it's just that pesky Hamas who keeps mucking it up for everyone.:
Who told you that
I believe it was KK when I brought up the notion of Gaza governance allowing Hamas to build a stronghold and grow.
Post by: Kat Kid on March 26, 2024, 07:38:12 PM
Netanyahu was fine with Hamas running Gaza before Oct 7. He supported it. If your point is that the stateless Gazan people had imperfect governance when Israel had a blockade of Gaza and controlled all of its borders, its air, seas, water, energy, economy and trade, and that was before the destroyed the whole place then I will agree the government was not perfect. They were dealt a pretty tough hand though.I've been told that everything is perfectly fine with the fundamentals of Gaza governance and it's just that pesky Hamas who keeps mucking it up for everyone.:
Who told you that
I believe it was KK when I brought up the notion of Gaza governance allowing Hamas to build a stronghold and grow.
Post by: LickNeckey on March 26, 2024, 08:37:27 PM
Not sure the context of this but Israel might be a factor too!!!!I've been told that everything is perfectly fine with the fundamentals of Gaza governance and it's just that pesky Hamas who keeps mucking it up for everyone.:
Who told you that
I believe it was KK when I brought up the notion of Gaza governance allowing Hamas to build a stronghold and grow.
Only because of their technically illegal occupation of those lands.
The lands are in no legal way part of Israel and are considered to be administered under the law of belligerent occupation.
Post by: Spracne on March 26, 2024, 08:56:37 PM
Not sure the context of this but Israel might be a factor too!!!!I've been told that everything is perfectly fine with the fundamentals of Gaza governance and it's just that pesky Hamas who keeps mucking it up for everyone.:
Who told you that
I believe it was KK when I brought up the notion of Gaza governance allowing Hamas to build a stronghold and grow.
Only because of their technically illegal occupation of those lands.
The lands are in no legal way part of Israel and are considered to be administered under the law of belligerent occupation.
Had to look this up. Thanks for teaching me this term. I learned, today.
Post by: Pete on March 27, 2024, 01:18:43 PM
I will vote for Biden but I really don't like what Israel is doing to Gaza (and our enabling of it)I wish more progressives were like you. Those knuckleheads will cut their own noses off. They did it with Nader and got the environmental policies of Bush. They’ll do it again and get the Israel policies of Trump.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2024, 01:19:04 PM
A clown car crap show administration
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/18-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-by-aid-airdrop-malfunction/3175307
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2024, 01:19:44 PM
I will vote for Biden but I really don't like what Israel is doing to Gaza (and our enabling of it)I wish more progressives were like you. Those knuckleheads will cut their own noses off. They did it with Nader and got the environmental policies of Bush. They’ll do it again and get the Israel policies of Trump.
You mean peace . . .
World at War: The Joe Biden Years . . .
Post by: Pete on March 27, 2024, 01:44:06 PM
I am delighted with being out of Afghanistan.I will vote for Biden but I really don't like what Israel is doing to Gaza (and our enabling of it)I wish more progressives were like you. Those knuckleheads will cut their own noses off. They did it with Nader and got the environmental policies of Bush. They’ll do it again and get the Israel policies of Trump.
You mean peace . . .
World at War: The Joe Biden Years . . .
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 27, 2024, 01:46:54 PM
I am delighted with being out of Afghanistan.I will vote for Biden but I really don't like what Israel is doing to Gaza (and our enabling of it)I wish more progressives were like you. Those knuckleheads will cut their own noses off. They did it with Nader and got the environmental policies of Bush. They’ll do it again and get the Israel policies of Trump.
You mean peace . . .
World at War: The Joe Biden Years . . .
Even though in trying to excuse the excruciatingly poor execution of the withdrawal and leaving our indigenous allies to die terrible deaths. Pedo Pete tried to declare his hands were tied by . . . Trump.
So using that logic, we can thank Don Trump for getting out of Afghanistan, it's Joe's administration that couldn't execute.
Post by: steve dave on March 29, 2024, 02:11:57 PM
https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1773789873503445051
Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 29, 2024, 03:22:10 PM
abhorrent
https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1773789873503445051
Agreed, it should have been more.
Post by: star seed 7 on March 29, 2024, 03:42:08 PM
Post by: wetwillie on March 29, 2024, 03:56:53 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on March 29, 2024, 10:41:08 PM
https://twitter.com/samhusseini/status/1773782246681378847?s=46&t=-jwPwnR3rKHM9sk9hA7h8g
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Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 31, 2024, 11:43:12 AM
It's easy to see why so many of you back Hamas. Such righteous people. He is risen!
Post by: Spracne on March 31, 2024, 12:05:17 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13257123/Protesters-Free-Palestine-Easter-Vigil-St-Patricks-Cathedral.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13257123/Protesters-Free-Palestine-Easter-Vigil-St-Patricks-Cathedral.html)
It's easy to see why so many of you back Hamas. Such righteous people. He is risen!
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/ALtYmL64aNAAAAAC/alright-alex-trebek.gif)
Post by: nicname on March 31, 2024, 12:26:09 PM
Post by: I_have_purplewood on March 31, 2024, 12:31:50 PM
Saying “he is risen!” in support of the moder nation state of Israel is incredibly rich.
I'm happy that you were the one who picked up on this. :driving: (ftp://:driving:)
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on March 31, 2024, 12:55:17 PM
Post by: star seed 7 on March 31, 2024, 01:02:28 PM
Just my humble opinion, but I think these protesters would be far more effective if they weren’t so dang disruptive!
Yeah, historically catholics have been super chill and you don't see anyone complaining about them!
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 01, 2024, 12:46:51 PM
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on April 01, 2024, 02:24:15 PM
Post by: LickNeckey on April 01, 2024, 04:01:53 PM
Post by: wetwillie on April 01, 2024, 04:07:01 PM
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on April 01, 2024, 04:17:55 PM
Post by: Dugout DickStone on April 01, 2024, 04:21:15 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 01, 2024, 06:25:56 PM
Normalize bombing embassies, I sayWe bombed the eff out of a Chinese embassy.
It was a “mistake”.
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Post by: nicname on April 01, 2024, 07:51:10 PM
Edit: Just gonna leave this here lol
Post by: michigancat on April 02, 2024, 10:36:29 AM
https://twitter.com/WCKitchen/status/1775027258249359451
Post by: Kat Kid on April 02, 2024, 10:36:41 AM
World Kitchen:
"WCK said on Tuesday that the seven aid workers had died even though they were travelling in a “deconflicted zone in two armoured cars branded with the WCK logo” and another vehicle.
“Despite co-ordinating movements with the IDF, the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse,” the group added."
Israel:
“Unfortunately there was a tragic incident in the last 24 hours in which our forces unintentionally hit innocent people in the Gaza Strip,” the Israeli prime minister said. “It happens in wartime?.?.?.?We will do everything we can to ensure this isn’t repeated.”
I've seen children more apologetic about spilling milk. At what point does everyone drop the pretense that Israel is behaving normally or rationally?
As Israel now attempts to broaden the war to include Iran, Syria, and Lebannon it would be good for the West to consider whether now is the time to send a clear signal by cutting off the weapons and money until Israel changes tactics.
As for how the "region's only democracy" is handling its own citizens free speech?
It is banning Al Jazeera from broadcasting in Israel.
and here are some quotes from peace activists in Israel:
“I said: ‘You’re not going to feel comfortable about what I’m going to do, but I’m also dedicating a Kaddish to the thousands of innocent civilians, the women and children, being slaughtered by us in Gaza,’” Frey recalled.
The backlash erupted within days. Far-right groups reposted the video with Frey’s home address. Hate messages flooded in. Hostile crowds surrounded the apartment block where he lives with his wife and two children, setting off fireworks and flares.
"The fear was real. It was close to October 7 and people’s blood was boiling,” said Frey, a rare journalist-cum-peace activist in the ultraorthodox community. “We were seconds away from people breaking into our home.”
Frey fled in the early hours, but more than five months later, he is still too scared to return, instead moving from place to place. “I’ve lost my community,” he said.
“The witch hunt is against anyone who puts his head out of line,” said Rami Elhanan. The 74-year-old son of a Holocaust survivor is a member of the Parents Circle-Families Forum, which brings together Israeli Jews and Palestinians who have lost relatives during the decades-long conflict.
Forum members like Elhanan, whose 14-year-old daughter was killed in a Hamas suicide attack in 1997, have for years arranged meetings between bereaved Jews and Palestinians and high school students to preach peace and coexistence. But in August the education ministry banned the group from schools."
........
"Meir Baruchin’s outspokenness landed him in prison. A veteran history and civics teacher, he had long used Facebook to raise awareness about the plight of occupied Palestinians.
After Hamas’s attack, he posted about Gazans killed in Israel’s offensive, including a picture of dead babies, noting that “entire families are being wiped out”. On a teachers’ WhatsApp group, he said Israeli forces had raped Palestinians in the past.
Within weeks, the local municipality fired him and complained to police. The education ministry suspended his teaching licence. In November, he was arrested, charged with the intention to commit treason and detained for four days. He was released, but the case is still pending.
A labour court ruled in January against the municipality and education ministry, ordering his reinstatement and awarding him damages. But when Baruchin returned to school, protesting students hurled abuse at him.
“I was literally under siege inside the teachers’ room,” said Baruchin, who has a son and daughter in the Israeli military. “They curse me?.?.?.?They wished me to die. They wished for my children to die.”
Post by: Dugout DickStone on April 02, 2024, 10:45:27 AM
Normalize bombing embassies, I sayWe bombed the eff out of a Chinese embassy.
It was a “mistake”.
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never a msitake when we silver back chicoms
Post by: catastrophe on April 02, 2024, 11:47:49 AM
This is bad!
https://twitter.com/WCKitchen/status/1775027258249359451
Just a few days ago Israel was being criticized for bottle necking food trucks at the border. It sure seems like they're being intentionally hostile to aid groups.
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 02, 2024, 01:14:19 PM
Normalize bombing embassies, I sayWe bombed the eff out of a Chinese embassy.
It was a “mistake”.
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never a msitake when we silver back chicoms
Post reeks of Team Locked and Loaded red ass
Post by: Dugout DickStone on April 02, 2024, 01:21:55 PM
Normalize bombing embassies, I sayWe bombed the eff out of a Chinese embassy.
It was a “mistake”.
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never a msitake when we silver back chicoms
Post reeks of Team Locked and Loaded red ass
dark brando sends the chi coms packing. watch him and trump nuke tik tok next
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 02, 2024, 01:49:36 PM
Milquetoast Brandon ain't sending anybody packing.
Post by: BIG APPLE CAT on April 02, 2024, 03:31:15 PM
Quote
Israel- "we take extreme caution and care to only target Hamas, who uses civilians as human sheilds. this is why we had to go in to Al Shifa hospital twice and we arrested/killed hundreds of Hamas terrorists there. We are coordinating with aide groups to distribute humanitarian aide safely."
the glaringly obvious thing i hate about this talking point...why would Hamas continue to implement the "civilians as human shields" strategy since Israel clearly dgaf and will attack anyway no matter what?
its like when the ksucats would lose a game by 20 points and then oscar weber would be like "well we won the play-hard chart" like...okay?
Post by: Pete on April 02, 2024, 04:57:07 PM
Post by: wetwillie on April 02, 2024, 06:32:27 PM
Post by: Spracne on April 02, 2024, 08:31:00 PM
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean
Yeah, same. But I'm always down for a good butt rough ridin'.
Post by: Pete on April 02, 2024, 09:05:59 PM
So Orthodox Jews in Israel have the option to skip serving in the army if they go to college/seminary thing and study their religion.
The IDF is running out of soldiers and needs more, and wants Netanyahu to conscript the orthodox draft dodgers. It also seems like the general population agrees, and they’re getting feisty about it.
Meanwhile the far right orthodox groups are part Netanyahu’s government and support, and they are against their youngsters being in the army.
So, it’s a choose your own butt rough ridin' for him. THIS, not killing Gazans, is what may bring him and his government down.
Post by: wetwillie on April 02, 2024, 10:55:18 PM
Post by: Katpappy on April 02, 2024, 11:37:33 PM
Post by: CNS on April 03, 2024, 06:23:08 AM
Post by: Sandstone Outcropping on April 03, 2024, 07:28:16 PM
Post by: sonofdaxjones on April 03, 2024, 09:22:40 PM
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Post by: Kat Kid on April 03, 2024, 10:39:18 PM
From what I understand, Netanyahu is already unpopular enough that he is pretty much guaranteed to lose the election once the war is over.But he will likely be replaced by someone more right wing.