people talk about atheletes and student loan stuff

[TownieCat]

I concede that a student athlete can obtain funds from other sources.  So, their argument that they are broke is not entirely legitimate. 

At the same time, nobody in this thread has answered the underlying question:  Are athletic services "employment?"  Along the same lines, how are student A (compensated graduate assistant) and student B (uncompensated student athlete) any different?  fundamentally, why are they treated any differently?  both are students, both are getting benefits, but one student is paid by the university for their services whereas the other student is told to eff off.

I think that ultimately athletic service is employment. The employees accept the terms of compensation (which is very adequate) when they sign their LOI and grant in aid agreement.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I concede that a student athlete can obtain funds from other sources.  So, their argument that they are broke is not entirely legitimate. 

At the same time, nobody in this thread has answered the underlying question:  Are athletic services "employment?"  Along the same lines, how are student A (compensated graduate assistant) and student B (uncompensated student athlete) any different?  fundamentally, why are they treated any differently?  both are students, both are getting benefits, but one student is paid by the university for their services whereas the other student is told to eff off.

The graduate assistant already has a degree that they could use to find a better job elsewhere. The school has to pay them or there would be no graduate assistants except in fields that require a graduate degree to make any real money.

[MakeItRain]

They get plenty as it is.  I had to work and get loans to go to school, being a stud athlete on scholly would have been so much easier.

Its so funny that mediocre ass students who provided jack crap to their school think student athletes should be held to the same standard. You were a C machine who ate up university resources.

while his whole post is wrong, you can't just assume he was a mediocre student or c maching that ate up university resources just because he took out loans and worked to be able to go to college.

Was that the basis for my assumption? Would be pretty bizarre considering what I've said about me itt.

[MakeItRain]

while his whole post is wrong, you can't just assume he was a mediocre student or c maching that ate up university resources just because he took out loans and worked to be able to go to college.

true, but you can certainly assume that he was not an elite student athlete with his choice of academic institutions.  He's not like the football players on scholarship at a BCS school.   

well yeah. you can certainly assume that because he freaking already said he wasn't. it's like i don't even know what in the world you guys are talking about right now. i mean what's the freaking point?

I'm frustrated because I can't tell if you're trolling or not, I feel like I can tell but then I just get confused again.

[Dr Rick Daris]

while his whole post is wrong, you can't just assume he was a mediocre student or c maching that ate up university resources just because he took out loans and worked to be able to go to college.

true, but you can certainly assume that he was not an elite student athlete with his choice of academic institutions.  He's not like the football players on scholarship at a BCS school.   

well yeah. you can certainly assume that because he freaking already said he wasn't. it's like i don't even know what in the world you guys are talking about right now. i mean what's the freaking point?

I'm frustrated because I can't tell if you're trolling or not, I feel like I can tell but then I just get confused again.

i think we're both confused. our feelings on the subject are probably fairly similar and i think we're talking about different stuff simultaneously. ships passing in the night. friendly ships though that like each other. with that said i'm out. this thread is making my head hurt but put me on team give athletes more than what they currently get.

[Belvis Noland]

while his whole post is wrong, you can't just assume he was a mediocre student or c maching that ate up university resources just because he took out loans and worked to be able to go to college.

true, but you can certainly assume that he was not an elite student athlete with his choice of academic institutions.  He's not like the football players on scholarship at a BCS school.   

well yeah. you can certainly assume that because he freaking already said he wasn't. it's like i don't even know what in the world you guys are talking about right now. i mean what's the freaking point?

 

the point is that elite students and elite athletes are similarly situated.  both get benefits like housing, tuition, books, etc.  difference that nobody can explain is that the elite student can work for the university and get cash, in addition to his/her sick academic benefits.  but, nobody's up in arms about the student getting cash from the school.  that's the double standard.   

 That's the point.  and it's pretty obvious. 

[ChiComCat]

Not that anyone really seems to be debating this point, but I've had a Football and Equestrian athlete work for me in Manhattan.  They were both good enough employees so that there usually weren't issues, but occasionally a coach would try to do something just to sabotage their working anywhere. Wasn't constant but one week would be a pain in my ass every 3 months or so.

[EMAWmeister]

Not that anyone really seems to be debating this point, but I've had a Football and Equestrian athlete work for me in Manhattan.  They were both good enough employees so that there usually weren't issues, but occasionally a coach would try to do something just to sabotage their working anywhere. Wasn't constant but one week would be a pain in my ass every 3 months or so.

Didn't Andre McDonald work while dipping his ass off at The Fridge?

[Katpappy]

Seems like student athletes get a choice.  You take it or you don't.  If they didn't take the scholly, and went to college and had some crappy job, they still couldn't afford the lifestyle the scholarship provides.

This is the point I wanted to make, but I was busy making stupid analogies.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

And what lifestyle is that?

Full meal plan, probably decent (better than ghetto apartment) housing...

Ugh, and I don't know about anyone else, but if parents send their kids to college isn't there some responsibility to make sure your kid has clothes? I mean yeah, I've heard it on here before, but having a child myself, I think there is NOT one scenario possible that my bills just to have him under my roof don't exceed $50/month-if the kid is so bad off with his paid meals, housing, tutoring, etc...send that $50/mo for some play money. 

AND if the kid comes from a household where there isn't even that $50 to be had, then they are probably thanking their lucky stars for a warm bed and hot meals, because without their athletic talents it is unlikely that they would even have that.

Additionally, yeah, college-time of your life-I doubt there are many student athletes who don't consider what they are doing the "time of their life".  It is all how you choose to live it.

PS-DIII swimmer.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/1/18/college-athletessaytheyneedpaytocoverbasiccostsofliving.html

MIR, this is the reason I put this in the Cigars thread.  It's about the division of D1 schools... those that can afford it and those that can't.  Also there's a bunch of fools on this thread that don't realize big schools or should I say BCS caliber schools can very easily afford to pay the kids a couple or three thousand bucks to cover expenses.   Many schools are spending millions of dollars for things that will entice top recruits to pay.  Why you say, because this how you make money as an AD.   

[Katpappy]

They get plenty as it is.  I had to work and get loans to go to school, being a stud athlete on scholly would have been so much easier.

So you don't mind getting up at 4:30 AM and lifting weights, running wind sprints, etc...; or getting the rough ridin' wind knocked out of you in the three hours of practice you will put in doing whatever crap the coaches want you to do.  eff yea, it's such an easy life being an SA. 

[Katpappy]

How many players at K-State are really worth getting paid in addition to what their scholarship covers...10? 20?

Not sure, but each player for Alabama the season they played ND in the MNC was valued at $556,000.  This was the worth estimated by the school's AD.  Art Briles stated last year that RGIII was worth 130 million dollars in value to Baylor University.  So how many are you shitting your pants over a $3,000.00 a year stipend. 

[Stevesie60]

This whole thread is pointless anyway. Ultimately this decision is up to the NCAA and no one else. Do you think the NCAA or the schools under it are going to hand out money when they damn well every athlete in the nation from now until the end of time is going to play NCAA sports for whatever compensation the NCAA calls fair?

[Kat Kid]

This whole thread is pointless anyway. Ultimately this decision is up to the NCAA and no one else. Do you think the NCAA or the schools under it are going to hand out money when they damn well every athlete in the nation from now until the end of time is going to play NCAA sports for whatever compensation the NCAA calls fair?

Assuming the NCAA is the sole authority is wrong.  In fact, with Northwestern unionizing and the O'Bannon lawsuit it is entirely possible that the NCAA is largely powerless in a very short time frame.

A possible future:

1) O'Bannon lawsuit requires massive NCAA settlement to ex-players.  EA and other video game makers shun the NCAA drying up a lucrative revenue stream.  Subsequent lawsuits explore whether players deserve a piece of the TV/sneaker/jersey/ad money

2)  Northwestern football team union is certified.  They begin recruiting players from other schools to join.

3)  College presidents and athletic directors look for ways to further separate the assets of the school and the athletic departments.  Hold emergency meetings with representatives from NBA/NFL.

4)  BCS partners with NFL, BCS+ hoops schools partner with NBA to secure revenue streams and to create independence from schools.  Schools sell jersey sponsorships, and sign agreements to receive dollars from pro sports teams, to supplement revenue streams open up video game revenue again.

5)  Baseball/Olympic/Title IX sports are kept under intercollegiate/NCAA umbrella and continue to compete under old rules.

[Belvis Noland]

This whole thread is pointless anyway. Ultimately this decision is up to the NCAA and no one else. Do you think the NCAA or the schools under it are going to hand out money when they damn well every athlete in the nation from now until the end of time is going to play NCAA sports for whatever compensation the NCAA calls fair?

Assuming the NCAA is the sole authority is wrong.  In fact, with Northwestern unionizing and the O'Bannon lawsuit it is entirely possible that the NCAA is largely powerless in a very short time frame.

A possible future:

1) O'Bannon lawsuit requires massive NCAA settlement to ex-players.  EA and other video game makers shun the NCAA drying up a lucrative revenue stream.  Subsequent lawsuits explore whether players deserve a piece of the TV/sneaker/jersey/ad money

2)  Northwestern football team union is certified.  They begin recruiting players from other schools to join.

3)  College presidents and athletic directors look for ways to further separate the assets of the school and the athletic departments.  Hold emergency meetings with representatives from NBA/NFL.

4)  BCS partners with NFL, BCS+ hoops schools partner with NBA to secure revenue streams and to create independence from schools.  Schools sell jersey sponsorships, and sign agreements to receive dollars from pro sports teams, to supplement revenue streams open up video game revenue again.

5)  Baseball/Olympic/Title IX sports are kept under intercollegiate/NCAA umbrella and continue to compete under old rules.

This.  Especially the northwestern union issue.  Courts have held in the past that student athletes aren't employees, thereby prohibiting unionization.  But this posture becomes increasingly problematic given the exponential growth in the money printing industry that is NCAA athletics.

 Think about all of the players in the NCAA industry.  Coaches, trainers, officials, administrators, commentators, compliance officers, etc.  every single player, at every level is making money.  Everybody except the rough ridin' athletes. 

[Kat Kid]

There is absolutely no way that there is enough revenue for every D1 school to simultaneously maintain compliance with Title IX and pay revenue sport athletes.  We are already at the point of no return with the arms race on facilities.  The decoupling of basketball and football from the rest of the university will save athletic depts. and universities from the financial doom that is knocking at their doorstep.

[Katpappy]

This whole thread is pointless anyway. Ultimately this decision is up to the NCAA and no one else. Do you think the NCAA or the schools under it are going to hand out money when they damn well every athlete in the nation from now until the end of time is going to play NCAA sports for whatever compensation the NCAA calls fair?

Assuming the NCAA is the sole authority is wrong.  In fact, with Northwestern unionizing and the O'Bannon lawsuit it is entirely possible that the NCAA is largely powerless in a very short time frame.

A possible future:

1) O'Bannon lawsuit requires massive NCAA settlement to ex-players.  EA and other video game makers shun the NCAA drying up a lucrative revenue stream.  Subsequent lawsuits explore whether players deserve a piece of the TV/sneaker/jersey/ad money

2)  Northwestern football team union is certified.  They begin recruiting players from other schools to join.

3)  College presidents and athletic directors look for ways to further separate the assets of the school and the athletic departments.  Hold emergency meetings with representatives from NBA/NFL.

4)  BCS partners with NFL, BCS+ hoops schools partner with NBA to secure revenue streams and to create independence from schools.  Schools sell jersey sponsorships, and sign agreements to receive dollars from pro sports teams, to supplement revenue streams open up video game revenue again.

5)  Baseball/Olympic/Title IX sports are kept under intercollegiate/NCAA umbrella and continue to compete under old rules.

Times are changing and anyone that doesn't believe that is a fool.  CFB and CBB support the professional sports in FB and BB.  They need these athletes for there fame to help support a fan following in pro-sports.  Colleges need pro-sports, because this is what entices the top recruits to play for them.  Along with millions of dollars in athletic amenities paid for by fan support. 

[star seed 7]

There is absolutely no way that there is enough revenue for every D1 school to simultaneously maintain compliance with Title IX and pay revenue sport athletes.  We are already at the point of no return with the arms race on facilities.  The decoupling of basketball and football from the rest of the university will save athletic depts. and universities from the financial doom that is knocking at their doorstep.

it's somewhat silly that these sports are affiliated with universities in the first place.

[Katpappy]

There is absolutely no way that there is enough revenue for every D1 school to simultaneously maintain compliance with Title IX and pay revenue sport athletes.  We are already at the point of no return with the arms race on facilities.  The decoupling of basketball and football from the rest of the university will save athletic depts. and universities from the financial doom that is knocking at their doorstep.

Again I agree.  There is to much money involved to let this thing go.  They got to do something to keep the other sports from killing off income.

[Katpappy]

I really think that Football and Basketball athletes should be in a "Sports Program" separate from the school and AD.  The "Sports Program" could have courses provided to the athletes, but not as a degree program.  That way the "Sports Program" could profit off the value of the athletes and be self supportive.  Also, a small amount of money could be paid to all the players.  Then when they finish the required four year program, a stipend or scholarship for a Bachelor Degree program would be awarded. 

[Trim]

Give all SAs $5-8/hour (flexible here, I'm not going to run the math on it) for hours they're mandated to be doing athlete stuff (maybe all including games/travel, maybe just the practice times, I don't know) that they could otherwise be working jobs or enjoying college.

[Katpappy]

Give all SAs $5-8/hour (flexible here, I'm not going to run the math on it) for hours they're mandated to be doing athlete stuff (maybe all including games/travel, maybe just the practice times, I don't know) that they could otherwise be working jobs or enjoying college.

That's what the problem is.  Schools can't afford to pay all SA's.

[Trim]

Give all SAs $5-8/hour (flexible here, I'm not going to run the math on it) for hours they're mandated to be doing athlete stuff (maybe all including games/travel, maybe just the practice times, I don't know) that they could otherwise be working jobs or enjoying college.

That's what the problem is.  Schools can't afford to pay all SA's.

I don't know if that's true.  If it is, reduce the amount to make it work out or have different amounts based on revenue for the sports.  Get some exemption to title 9 passed based on everyone wanting it because some money's better than no money.

That seems fair to all and seems to keeps a level playing field or at least the perception of one.

Or go full-blown free market and have the richest, biggest fanbase schools survive or do nothing and have college sports basically blown up in time.  I'd have way more free time if college sports basically ceased to exist.

[Katpappy]

Give all SAs $5-8/hour (flexible here, I'm not going to run the math on it) for hours they're mandated to be doing athlete stuff (maybe all including games/travel, maybe just the practice times, I don't know) that they could otherwise be working jobs or enjoying college.

That's what the problem is.  Schools can't afford to pay all SA's.

I don't know if that's true.  If it is, reduce the amount to make it work out or have different amounts based on revenue for the sports.  Get some exemption to title 9 passed based on everyone wanting it because some money's better than no money.

That seems fair to all and seems to keeps a level playing field or at least the perception of one.

Or go full-blown free market and have the richest, biggest fanbase schools survive or do nothing and have college sports basically blown up in time.  I'd have way more free time if college sports basically ceased to exist.

It isn't.  Do you think schools can give out $28-$50 thousand dollars to all SA's and not be able to add a few bucks to that.  It's laughable that these same schools can afford to pay coaching staffs millions, but not be able to afford some extra spending money.  I just mentioned that because of all the idiots that think this would bankrupt an AD.

[MadCat]

I'd have way more free time if college sports basically ceased to exist.

This is how you win the game.

[MakeItRain]

There is absolutely no way that there is enough revenue for every D1 school to simultaneously maintain compliance with Title IX and pay revenue sport athletes.  We are already at the point of no return with the arms race on facilities.  The decoupling of basketball and football from the rest of the university will save athletic depts. and universities from the financial doom that is knocking at their doorstep.

The automatic qualifier schools can. Basketball and football cannot and will not be decoupled from anything. What is most likely to happen, and the wheels are already in motion for this, is for a fourth subdivision to be added to Division 1. The fourth subdivision will be the subdivision that will offer full cost of living.