Author Topic: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???  (Read 7702 times)

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Offline EMAWzified

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2014, 12:52:34 PM »
Transfer to St. Johns didn't turn out well for Redding. Lou Carnesecca didn't give him the playing time freedom Hartman did.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 03:07:27 PM »
After the recruiters left, one of Jack's lead recruiters was Lon Kruger.   :flush:

Lon couldn't sell a semi-truck of Evian in the Sahara.

Some of the players K-State was talking to (and I saw it with my own eyes) couldn't even make it at William Jewell.



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Offline Headinjun

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2014, 02:46:24 AM »
I think Lon could of put us in the Final Four and won multiple league titles if he would have stayed. 

Dude has had some runs with every college team he has ever coached. 

I don't think the losing streak to KU would have ever been as large if Lon would have been around. 

Offline nicname

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2014, 03:18:19 AM »
I think Lon could of put us in the Final Four and won multiple league titles if he would have stayed. 

Dude has had some runs with every college team he has ever coached. 

I don't think the losing streak to KU would have ever been as large if Lon would have been around.

It was at 2 when he left FWIW. 

Lon was 4-8 against KU. 

February 4, 1987    Kansas    80-75 **    Manhattan
February 19, 1987    Kansas    84-67    Lawrence
January 30, 1988    K-State    72-61    Lawrence
February 18, 1988    Kansas    64-63    Manhattan
March 12, 1988            K-State    69-54 +    Kansas City, Mo.
March 27, 1988            Kansas    71-58 †    Pontiac, Mich.
January 14, 1989    Kansas    75-74 *    Manhattan
January 28, 1989    K-State    71-70    Lawrence
March 10, 1989            K-State    73-65    Kansas City, Mo.

January 27, 1990    Kansas    85-57    Manhattan
February 24, 1990    Kansas    70-58    Lawrence
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Offline massofcatfan

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2014, 09:05:53 AM »
don't forget he got The Sarge
I want to wake up in a city that never sleeps, etc.

Offline Headinjun

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2014, 10:20:08 AM »
I think Lon could of put us in the Final Four and won multiple league titles if he would have stayed. 

Dude has had some runs with every college team he has ever coached. 

I don't think the losing streak to KU would have ever been as large if Lon would have been around.

It was at 2 when he left FWIW. 

Lon was 4-8 against KU. 

February 4, 1987    Kansas    80-75 **    Manhattan
February 19, 1987    Kansas    84-67    Lawrence
January 30, 1988    K-State    72-61    Lawrence
February 18, 1988    Kansas    64-63    Manhattan
March 12, 1988            K-State    69-54 +    Kansas City, Mo.
March 27, 1988            Kansas    71-58 †    Pontiac, Mich.
January 14, 1989    Kansas    75-74 *    Manhattan
January 28, 1989    K-State    71-70    Lawrence
March 10, 1989            K-State    73-65    Kansas City, Mo.

January 27, 1990    Kansas    85-57    Manhattan
February 24, 1990    Kansas    70-58    Lawrence

I don't think he would have gotten the streak up into the 20s.   

Offline Pete

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2014, 10:37:19 AM »
Hell, KSU basketball would have been much better off if they had merely kept Dana, as disgusting as that thought might be.

Offline 75cat

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2014, 12:48:38 PM »
Contrary to what others have said here Jack absolutely hated the process of recruiting. He inherited the Kruger team when he came to Manhatten in 1970, Fitzimmons had done every thing but sign them (Lonnie, Danny Beard, Steve Mitchell and Ernie Kushner, who made up the core of the 73 and 74 championship teams), Doug Snyder who was the star of the 75 team when he was a senior originally was recruited to Manhattan as a QB by Vince Gibson, I think Chuckie Williams and Mike Evans may have come to Manhattan partially due to the efforts of Clyde Frazier , who was close to Hartman from his playing days at SIU,and partially because of Hartman's reputation of using and developing guards. I definitely know that Clyde was the reasons that Redding and Ro Blackman came to KSU, Tim Jankovich's first wife was one of Hartman's daughter's and they had been a couple since Jr. High but Jank originally took a scholarship to the University of Washington, then came back to Manhattan and sat out a year . Jack liked to coach/teach, look what he did to make Blackman a two time All-American and Ed Nealy had one of the worst cases of "White Man's Desease" I have ever seen on a BB court at that level, had no business playing D-1 BB let alone having a 13 year NBA career, but after Chuck Garret, who was the recruiter that came with Coach Hartman from SIU was killed in a car wreck coming back from a recruiting trip and Reinert after him and Ro Blackman left, Jack did not have any one to work with.

Offline EMAWzified

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2014, 01:13:29 PM »
" Doug Snyder who was the star of the 75 team . . ."
You're kidding right? He was the Spradling on the team, a player you could rely to not screw up too much. He was a cog on a team with Evans, Williams and Gerlach.
Evans came to K-State because of Dean Smith's desire to get him out of the ACC once he'd recruited Phil Ford. http://themercury.com/articles/mike-evans-learns-years-later-how-he-was-recruited-by-kansas-state




Offline 75cat

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2014, 02:06:31 PM »
" Doug Snyder who was the star of the 75 team . . ."
You're kidding right? He was the Spradling on the team, a player you could rely to not screw up too much. He was a cog on a team with Evans, Williams and Gerlach.
Evans came to K-State because of Dean Smith's desire to get him out of the ACC once he'd recruited Phil Ford. http://themercury.com/articles/mike-evans-learns-years-later-how-he-was-recruited-by-kansas-state

Using the STAR term to refer to Snyder probably was a mis-statement on my part but he was more important to the team's  winning than Sprads is.

I forget about Carl Gerlach, maybe because he was not a big scorer when I was in school but he may have been the fastest big man from one base line to other I have ever seen play.

Like I said I wasn't sure about Clyde "the Glides'" involvement with the recruiting of Chuckie or Mike but I would wonder even if he wanted him out of the ACC wouldn't Dean Smith been more likely to push Mike towards his Alma Mater like he did when the Hawks hired Roy Boy in Larryville

Offline Big Sam

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2014, 02:23:12 PM »
I think Lon could of put us in the Final Four and won multiple league titles if he would have stayed. 

Dude has had some runs with every college team he has ever coached. 

I don't think the losing streak to KU would have ever been as large if Lon would have been around.

Lon Kruger's great recruiter was Altman.  When Altman left, the future got cloudy to say the least and it helped lead to having Lon go to an easier place to recruit - where he did well until his kids got in the system, he moved on and repeated the cycle.

Offline EMAWzified

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2014, 03:09:07 PM »
"Like I said I wasn't sure about Clyde "the Glides'" involvement with the recruiting of Chuckie or Mike but I would wonder even if he wanted him out of the ACC wouldn't Dean Smith been more likely to push Mike towards his Alma Mater like he did when the Hawks hired Roy Boy in Larryville"

Dean's assistant played a role.

Offline 1863

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2014, 07:07:21 PM »
I think Lon could of put us in the Final Four and won multiple league titles if he would have stayed. 

Dude has had some runs with every college team he has ever coached. 

I don't think the losing streak to KU would have ever been as large if Lon would have been around.

It was at 2 when he left FWIW. 

Lon was 4-8 against KU. 

February 4, 1987    Kansas    80-75 **    Manhattan
February 19, 1987    Kansas    84-67    Lawrence
January 30, 1988    K-State    72-61    Lawrence
February 18, 1988    Kansas    64-63    Manhattan
March 12, 1988            K-State    69-54 +    Kansas City, Mo.
March 27, 1988            Kansas    71-58 †    Pontiac, Mich.
January 14, 1989    Kansas    75-74 *    Manhattan
January 28, 1989    K-State    71-70    Lawrence
March 10, 1989            K-State    73-65    Kansas City, Mo.

January 27, 1990    Kansas    85-57    Manhattan
February 24, 1990    Kansas    70-58    Lawrence

I don't think he would have gotten the streak up into the 20s.

The early 90s were when things really started to come unraveled. Hell, we had more NCAA appearances than KU before '91.

Offline Headinjun

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2014, 08:46:18 PM »
1996-2008 will be known as the dark ages.   


Offline slimz

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2014, 11:25:50 PM »
rough ridin' combover Purdue coach and his squeaky assistant stole point guard Reed (Reid?) who went on to become two-time Big 10 player of the year (maybe it would have helped had Hartman played him a little bit during, especially with the injuries) and two 6-8ish forwards, who went on to have fine careers at like MAC schools.

FJK, and FBW, if I'm interpreting this right.

Nevertheless, what a fantastic thread. Thanks to the contributors.

Offline bones129

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2014, 11:29:25 PM »
don't forget he got The Sarge

The Sarge. A great one.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 11:42:06 PM by bones129 »

Offline bones129

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2014, 11:30:19 PM »
Contrary to what others have said here Jack absolutely hated the process of recruiting. He inherited the Kruger team when he came to Manhatten in 1970, Fitzimmons had done every thing but sign them (Lonnie, Danny Beard, Steve Mitchell and Ernie Kushner, who made up the core of the 73 and 74 championship teams), Doug Snyder who was the star of the 75 team when he was a senior originally was recruited to Manhattan as a QB by Vince Gibson, I think Chuckie Williams and Mike Evans may have come to Manhattan partially due to the efforts of Clyde Frazier , who was close to Hartman from his playing days at SIU,and partially because of Hartman's reputation of using and developing guards. I definitely know that Clyde was the reasons that Redding and Ro Blackman came to KSU, Tim Jankovich's first wife was one of Hartman's daughter's and they had been a couple since Jr. High but Jank originally took a scholarship to the University of Washington, then came back to Manhattan and sat out a year . Jack liked to coach/teach, look what he did to make Blackman a two time All-American and Ed Nealy had one of the worst cases of "White Man's Desease" I have ever seen on a BB court at that level, had no business playing D-1 BB let alone having a 13 year NBA career, but after Chuck Garret, who was the recruiter that came with Coach Hartman from SIU was killed in a car wreck coming back from a recruiting trip and Reinert after him and Ro Blackman left, Jack did not have any one to work with.

Not many periods in that sort of run-on post. Please edit and re-post. TIA.

Offline IPA4Me

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2014, 05:26:03 AM »
I think Lon could of put us in the Final Four and won multiple league titles if he would have stayed. 

Dude has had some runs with every college team he has ever coached. 

I don't think the losing streak to KU would have ever been as large if Lon would have been around.

It was at 2 when he left FWIW. 

Lon was 4-8 against KU. 

February 4, 1987    Kansas    80-75 **    Manhattan
February 19, 1987    Kansas    84-67    Lawrence
January 30, 1988    K-State    72-61    Lawrence
February 18, 1988    Kansas    64-63    Manhattan
March 12, 1988            K-State    69-54 +    Kansas City, Mo.
March 27, 1988            Kansas    71-58 †    Pontiac, Mich.
January 14, 1989    Kansas    75-74 *    Manhattan
January 28, 1989    K-State    71-70    Lawrence
March 10, 1989            K-State    73-65    Kansas City, Mo.

January 27, 1990    Kansas    85-57    Manhattan
February 24, 1990    Kansas    70-58    Lawrence

I don't think he would have gotten the streak up into the 20s.

The early 90s were when things really started to come unraveled. Hell, we had more NCAA appearances than KU before '91.
Man I forgot about that stat! We used to rub that in squawk faces.

Offline WillieWatanabe

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2014, 11:06:33 AM »
good thread.
Sometimes I think of the Book of Job and how God likes to really eff with people.
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Offline slobber

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2014, 11:48:26 AM »
Very interesting, guys. Reiner's statement when leaving was kind of strange:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19780407&id=a0MyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=beYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5682,1251808

Yeah, that doesn't sound like it ended well.
Might be luked, but love the article on KSU on the front sports page of that LWJ. MCMW Dickey!

Offline Lahcat

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2014, 02:38:19 PM »
If I remember correctly, Hartman suffered a heart attack during some of his later years as head coach.  He recovered but I don't think he was ever quite the same.  Does anyone but me remember him stepping in and coaching women's BB when their coach was forced out?

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2014, 03:06:00 PM »
If I remember correctly, Hartman suffered a heart attack during some of his later years as head coach.  He recovered but I don't think he was ever quite the same.  Does anyone but me remember him stepping in and coaching women's BB when their coach was forced out?


_FAN remembered during fattyfest 2012. He may have been the only one.

Offline 75cat

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2014, 03:17:34 PM »
If I remember correctly, Hartman suffered a heart attack during some of his later years as head coach.  He recovered but I don't think he was ever quite the same.  Does anyone but me remember him stepping in and coaching women's BB when their coach was forced out?
Not sure of the years but remember Jack being ambulanced to Stormont-Vail hospital in Topeka to have heart by-pass surgery either just before or during the Big 8 season, may have been the year before Lon came back.  In his absence the interim HC was Daryl Winston if I remember correctly.

I remember when the AD asked Jack to come out of retirement and coach the woman's BB team after the woman's coach was fired during the season for what were deemed to be NCAA violations.  Not sure what his record was with the woman's team that part of a year he coached but having had a National COY on the bench could have only been a positive

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2014, 10:47:12 PM »
If I remember correctly, Hartman suffered a heart attack during some of his later years as head coach.  He recovered but I don't think he was ever quite the same.  Does anyone but me remember him stepping in and coaching women's BB when their coach was forced out?


_FAN remembered during fattyfest 2012. He may have been the only one.

Heart attack in Jan '85 after a close loss to Oregon State in Ahearn I believe.

Tom

Offline Bill Clarahan

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Re: Question for bball historians: Why did Hartman stink after 1981-82???
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2014, 03:46:14 PM »
Bill Guthridge was the connection for Evans to KSU, Guthridge was a former cat who was an asst. for Tex and then Dean Smith